H*lm*ts: Ever get the feeling you've been stitched up?

[Mark McNeill]

http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=5702

UK docs to vote on cycle helmet compulsion


--
Mark, UK

"Those who are at war with others are not at peace with themselves."

[iakobski]

"That this Meeting believes the main health hazard for cyclists is
being hit by a motorised vehicle and that local and national government
should prioritise integrated transport policies that require the
introduction of safe cycle lanes in urban areas."

The medics obviously use a different dictionary to the rest of us.

Surely what they're talking about is not "integrated" transport, but
"segregated" transport?

Why does "belief" come into it anyway - They are scientists and so the
main health hazard either _is_ or _isn't_ regardless of any _beliefs_ -
leave faith to the church.

[Terry D]

Mark McNeill wrote:
> http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=5702
>
> UK docs to vote on cycle helmet compulsion
>
>

Martlehats and BeemaBelts all round then?

Terry Duckmanton :-(

[Peter Clinch]

iakobski wrote:

> Why does "belief" come into it anyway - They are scientists

Up to a point, Lord Copper. My department does not employ doctors, but
it employs several Clinical Scientists. They are a very distinct thing.

Some doctors are very good scientists, but any given doctor isn't
necessarily any much use at science.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

[dkahn400]

Mark McNeill wrote:
> http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=5702
>
> UK docs to vote on cycle helmet compulsion

What did you expect? It's been clear for some time that this was going
to be a carefully stage-managed stitch-up. The policy reversal was
obviously politically motivated and the same forces have been at work
here. It's a sad state of affairs and I can only hope that those
members of the BMA who are sufficiently concerned with its reputation
will continue to work to get this overturned.

--
Dave...

[Steven]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:34:56 +0100, Peter Clinch >
wrote:

>iakobski wrote:
>
>> Why does "belief" come into it anyway - They are scientists
>
>Up to a point, Lord Copper.

What a coincidence. I started re-reading Scoop this very day!

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:27:20 +0100, Mark McNeill
> wrote:

>http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=5702
>UK docs to vote on cycle helmet compulsion

I suppose the fact that I have been working on little else for some
weeks means that I assumed everyone knew about this.

There will be a fringe meeting hosted by CTC, and Peter Ward and
Richard Keatinge will, I think, both be speaking. The Usual Suspects
have been putting in a lot of work, of course, but in the end the
debate is severely curtailed and it is the curtailment of debate which
is most likely to be a problem.

And yes, the phrase "stitch-up" has been used more than once.

The crucial thing to get across to doctors at this meeting is that
voting for compulsion is not about saying that helmets are good, the
BMA already says that; it's saying: if you believe cycling is not so
very dangerous that a trip to the shops requires special protective
equipment, that you are not only wrong, but criminally wrong.

Trying to come up with soundbytes to counter the "Scary head injuries!
Waaah!" and "Bike Danger!" bull**** is nigh on impossible.

The previous day (or maybe the day before that) there will be an
extended debate on obesity. Guess which country has the lowest rate
of obesity in Western Europe, despite having no hills to ride up?
Cycle use correlates strongly with low rates of obesity and heart
disease.

It's like Eddie Izzard and his spiel about cancer scares. "Research
shows red wine is good for you! And it gives you cancer."

Either cycling is good for you or it is lethally dangerous. Which is
it?

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

[David Hansen]

On 22 Jun 2005 03:24:15 -0700 someone who may be "iakobski"
> wrote this:-

>The medics obviously use a different dictionary to the rest of us.

They do. One of their more amusing claims is that they can reduce
mortality. Next they will be turning water into wine.

>Why does "belief" come into it anyway - They are scientists

No they are not. The closest group they come to are engineers.
Doctors are very bad at their job compared to engineers, but it is
fair to add that they deal with far more complex things than
engineers.

Doctors should stick to what they are trained for, repairing damaged
bodies, instead of making fools of themselves by venturing into
areas about which they know no more than anyone else not trained in
the field.

All I can suggest opponents do is to try and get briefing papers
into the hands of delegates the night before.





--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

[wheeler]

Mark McNeill wrote:
> http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=5702
>
> UK docs to vote on cycle helmet compulsion

Thanks for the alert - I've sent a 'review the evidence before voting
please' plea to an academic public health e-mail list I'm on (although I've
no idea if anyone with a vote is actually on this list).
I was trying to be as non-contentious as possible, whilst hopefully still
making the point...although looking at it again, I may have been too cagey.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?C38A52E4B

Cheers
Ben

--
Spam trap: Replace spamisdoomed with ben

[Zog The Undeniable]

Mark McNeill wrote:

> http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=5702
>
> UK docs to vote on cycle helmet compulsion
>
>
It's been said before, but doctors are as qualified to tell people how
to cycle safely as panel-beaters are qualified to tell people how to
drive safely.

[Rich]

"Zog The Undeniable" > wrote in message
news:42b9a0f2.0@entanet...
> Mark McNeill wrote:
>
>> http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=5702
>>
>> UK docs to vote on cycle helmet compulsion
>>
>>
> It's been said before, but doctors are as qualified to tell people how to
> cycle safely as panel-beaters are qualified to tell people how to drive
> safely.

probably true, but I bet there are more panel beaters who drive than doctors
who cycle.

[David Martin]

iakobski wrote:

> Why does "belief" come into it anyway - They are scientists and so the
> main health hazard either _is_ or _isn't_ regardless of any _beliefs_ -
> leave faith to the church.

You are obviously not a scientist.. Beleif, faith, dogma, and downright
superstition are all part of the daily working life of a scientist..

If we were working with things that we understood, it wouldn't be
called research.

The difference between a scientist and a religious fanatic is that a
scientist is prepared (in many cases anyway) to change their beliefs in
the light of new data. There are always exceptions to this.

...d

[Rich]

"David Martin" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>
>
> The difference between a scientist and a religious fanatic is that a
> scientist is prepared (in many cases anyway) to change their beliefs in
> the light of new data. There are always exceptions to this.

So the BMA "Science Committee" are really religious fanatics? And BHIT? and
Our Eric?

Now I've thought about it, you're right. Must look up the definition of
"zealot": isn't it religious fanatic?
>
> ..d
>

[Badger]

Mark McNeill wrote:
> http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=5702
>
> UK docs to vote on cycle helmet compulsion

Oh how they love the spotlight on them....
Last month it was long sharp pointy things....

[Dave Kahn]

Rich wrote:

> So the BMA "Science Committee" are really religious fanatics? And BHIT? and
> Our Eric?
>
> Now I've thought about it, you're right. Must look up the definition of
> "zealot": isn't it religious fanatic?

The Judean People's Front. See <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zealot>.

--
Dave...

Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the
future of the human race. - H. G. Wells

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

At Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:52:30 GMT, message
> was posted by
(Steven), including some, all or none of the
following:

>What a coincidence. I started re-reading Scoop this very day!

Good, innit?


Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

[Patrick Herring]

| "Just zis Guy, you know?" > wrote:
....
| The crucial thing to get across to doctors at this meeting is that
| voting for compulsion is not about saying that helmets are good, the
| BMA already says that; it's saying: if you believe cycling is not so
| very dangerous that a trip to the shops requires special protective
| equipment, that you are not only wrong, but criminally wrong.

Isn't it also saying "the public is a danger to itself and can't be
trusted to make up it's own mind" which, to a doctor, is spot on?

| Trying to come up with soundbytes to counter the "Scary head injuries!
| Waaah!" and "Bike Danger!" bull**** is nigh on impossible.

Does "population-wide study" hit the good-button? "NZ and OZ have
relevant data" might be a line...

Perhaps you just want a t-shirt with "Prevent Death - Ban Life!" on it.


--
Patrick Herring, http://www.anweald.co.uk/ph

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

At Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:20:15 +0100, message
> was posted by Patrick
Herring >, including some, all or none of the
following:

>| The crucial thing to get across to doctors at this meeting is that
>| voting for compulsion is not about saying that helmets are good, the
>| BMA already says that; it's saying: if you believe cycling is not so
>| very dangerous that a trip to the shops requires special protective
>| equipment, that you are not only wrong, but criminally wrong.

>Isn't it also saying "the public is a danger to itself and can't be
>trusted to make up it's own mind" which, to a doctor, is spot on?

Maybe. But I think it's mad. "Cycling is good for you, but so
dangerous that there is no journey for which you may ride without a
helmet". Mixed messages? Over this way, sir.


Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

[Clive George]

"Just zis Guy, you know?" > wrote in message
...
> At Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:52:30 GMT, message
> > was posted by
> (Steven), including some, all or none of the
> following:
>
>>What a coincidence. I started re-reading Scoop this very day!
>
> Good, innit?

What gets me is how much better it is than any of his other stuff (IMO of
course). Hopes dashed and all that.

cheers,
clive

[Dave Larrington]

Clive George wrote:
> "Just zis Guy, you know?" > wrote in message
> ...
>> At Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:52:30 GMT, message
>> > was posted by
>> (Steven), including some, all or none of the
>> following:
>>
>>> What a coincidence. I started re-reading Scoop this very day!
>>
>> Good, innit?
>
> What gets me is how much better it is than any of his other stuff
> (IMO of course). Hopes dashed and all that.

Three words.

The Loved One.

That is all.

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
Here, take these cheese-shaped stilts. You'll know when to use them.

[Steven]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:28:45 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?" >
wrote:

>At Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:52:30 GMT, message
> was posted by
(Steven), including some, all or none of the
>following:
>
>>What a coincidence. I started re-reading Scoop this very day!
>
>Good, innit?

Yes, I've been laughing away since I started reading.

I first read it many years ago as a teenager, and I think I get a few more of
the 'jokes' now.

[Chris Slade]

Dave Larrington wrote:

> Clive George wrote:
>> "Just zis Guy, you know?" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> At Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:52:30 GMT, message
>>> > was posted by
>>> (Steven), including some, all or none of the
>>> following:
>>>
>>>> What a coincidence. I started re-reading Scoop this very day!
>>>
>>> Good, innit?
>>
>> What gets me is how much better it is than any of his other stuff
>> (IMO of course). Hopes dashed and all that.
>
> Three words.
>
> The Loved One.
>
> That is all.
>

Good film, I've never read it though.

I see amazon have Scoop & the Loved One in a single volume, with Black
Mischief and The Ordeal of Gilbert Pinfold. Looks to be worth getting.

I wonder if there is any cycling content in there?

--
Chris

[Julesh]

Chris Slade wrote:
> Dave Larrington wrote:
>
>
>>Clive George wrote:
>>
>>>"Just zis Guy, you know?" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>>At Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:52:30 GMT, message
> was posted by
(Steven), including some, all or none of the
>>>>following:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>What a coincidence. I started re-reading Scoop this very day!
>>>>
>>>>Good, innit?
>>>
>>>What gets me is how much better it is than any of his other stuff
>>>(IMO of course). Hopes dashed and all that.
>>
>>Three words.
>>
>>The Loved One.
>>
>>That is all.
>>
>
>
> Good film, I've never read it though.
>
> I see amazon have Scoop & the Loved One in a single volume, with Black
> Mischief and The Ordeal of Gilbert Pinfold. Looks to be worth getting.
>
> I wonder if there is any cycling content in there?
>
I've not read The Loved One but the Ordeal of Gilbert Pinfold is about a
guy having hallucinations on an ocean liner so I doubt there is much
cycling content there.


Julesh

[Mark McNeill]

Response to Just zis Guy, you know?:

[McNeilltrack apologises for the late running of this message: this is
due to RL on the line.]

> Trying to come up with soundbytes to counter the "Scary head injuries!
> Waaah!" and "Bike Danger!" bull**** is nigh on impossible.

I've been reminded more than once by this topic of another Mencken quote:
"One horse-laugh is worth ten thousand syllogisms." - but of course this
would be seen as being flippant about ten thousand child deaths a year,
or whatever it is Be-Hit is claiming this month.


> The previous day (or maybe the day before that) there will be an
> extended debate on obesity. Guess which country has the lowest rate
> of obesity in Western Europe, despite having no hills to ride up?
> Cycle use correlates strongly with low rates of obesity and heart
> disease.

Worth making that point in that debate, of course.

--
Mark, UK

"If you torture data sufficiently, it will confess to almost anything."

[Clive George]

"Dave Larrington" > wrote in message
...
>>>> What a coincidence. I started re-reading Scoop this very day!
>>>
>>> Good, innit?
>>
>> What gets me is how much better it is than any of his other stuff
>> (IMO of course). Hopes dashed and all that.
>
> Three words.
>
> The Loved One.
>
> That is all.

Cool, ta. And it appears we even have a copy, published by Guy and Tim (or
possibly their parents).

cheers,
clive

[Peter Clinch]

Dave Larrington wrote:
> Clive George wrote:

>>What gets me is how much better it is than any of his other stuff
>>(IMO of course). Hopes dashed and all that.

> The Loved One.
>
> That is all.

Or Handful of Dust, or Brideshead Revisited, or Decline and Fall.

Must get round to the Sword of Honour trilogy one of these days...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

At Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:17:23 +0100, message
> was posted by Peter Clinch
>, including some, all or none of the
following:

>Must get round to the Sword of Honour trilogy one of these days...

My history teacher once recommended to me that I read the "Guy
Crouchback" trilogy - and now I know what I should have been looking
for :-)


Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

[Julesh]

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> At Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:17:23 +0100, message
> > was posted by Peter Clinch
> >, including some, all or none of the
> following:
>
>
>>Must get round to the Sword of Honour trilogy one of these days...
>
>
> My history teacher once recommended to me that I read the "Guy
> Crouchback" trilogy - and now I know what I should have been looking
> for :-)
>
>
> Guy
> --
> http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
>
> "To every complex problem there is a solution which is
> simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

I remember it as being very good - although it must be twenty years ago
I read it. I suppose I'd better read it again!


Julesh

[Patrick Herring]

| "Just zis Guy, you know?" > wrote:
|
| At Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:20:15 +0100, message
| > was posted by Patrick
| Herring >, including some, all or none of the
| following:
|
| >| The crucial thing to get across to doctors at this meeting is that
| >| voting for compulsion is not about saying that helmets are good, the
| >| BMA already says that; it's saying: if you believe cycling is not so
| >| very dangerous that a trip to the shops requires special protective
| >| equipment, that you are not only wrong, but criminally wrong.
|
| >Isn't it also saying "the public is a danger to itself and can't be
| >trusted to make up it's own mind" which, to a doctor, is spot on?
|
| Maybe. But I think it's mad. "Cycling is good for you, but so
| dangerous that there is no journey for which you may ride without a
| helmet". Mixed messages? Over this way, sir.

Is it cycling that they think has suddenly become a death-trap or is it
just the Modern World (TM): "All those things whizzing about, some of
them controlled by computers, no one person understands it all so
everyone is subject to unforseeable danger". And perhaps they're right,
the main problem is seeing helmets as a solution.

I've thought of a rejoinder sound-bite to "Bike Danger!". It is "Helmets
are Dangerous". That might stop them for long enough to explain risk
compensation. You have to fight like with like.

--
Patrick Herring, http://www.anweald.co.uk/ph

[Terry D]

Patrick Herring wrote:

>
> I've thought of a rejoinder sound-bite to "Bike Danger!". It is "Helmets
> are Dangerous". That might stop them for long enough to explain risk
> compensation. You have to fight like with like.
>
> --
> Patrick Herring, http://www.anweald.co.uk/ph

I think we need to follow the Hitchhikers Guide '42' principle here. Now that we
know that 'cycle helmets' is the answer, we need to find out what the question was.

I can commit a BBC B full time to this quest if someone can come up with
suitable software.

--
Terry Duckmanton.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/terry.duckmanton
A website mostly dedicated to cycling