insurance claim - valuation and depreciation (very long)

[Jürgen Hartwig]

Last month I had an accident placing my bike and I against a Mercury Sable.
I lost. I have already contacted the at-fault driver's insurance company,
and they are going to pay for my medical bills, time off work, and a sum for
pain and suffering. I should be alright, as long as I can shake some
lingering back pain. Today, I met with a claim's specialist from
Progressive about my bike.

She did not give me any problems about declaring the bike a total loss. Two
bike shops expressed concerns about the integrity of the carbon fiber
frameset (1996ish Trek 2100). The problem now is that she refuses to pay me
any more than I paid for the bike + upgrades over the past year. I
explained that I had shopped around for the best buys on the best
components. It took me weeks and sometimes months to find the best deals on
parts, hunting Ebay and online classifieds to save a buck. If I add up the
price to buy a similiar bike + the component and wheel upgrades I arrive at
$1900, and this was using the absolute best prices available (online
vendors) WITHOUT bargain hunting for months. However, my actual expenses
(with receipts) over the past year total just under $1400, with the Trek
2100 being the only used item purchased (the components and wheelset were
brand new). The accident was not my fault. I do not feel it is reasonable
for them to expect me to bargain shop (eating up more weeks and dozens of
additional hours) while I have no bike to ride (before the accident I road
5-6 times per week, 30+ miles per ride). In addition, a comparably equipped
bicycle today (carbon/aluminum frameset with Ultegra/Centaur components) is
between $1750-2100. I do understand the viewpoint of the insurance company:
they want to depreciate the bike. However, it isn't my fault I have to buy
a replacement bike. Their client put me in this position. I would accept a
reduced settlement to purchase a comparable used bike, but that requires
time that I really am not prepared to give. Who knows how long it will take
to find a quality used bike in the right size and proper setup to suit my
needs?

At this point, I am leaning towards buying the new bike I want, a Giant TCR
composite, and settling later with the insurance company. I am/was prepared
to spend a little more to get a nice new bike, but I cannot make it happen
if they offer me 20-30% less than I paid for the bike. $1000 wouldn't even
come close to buying what I have now, at least not in a reasonable
timeframe. Not only do they want to screw me over by forcing me to
downgrade, but they also get to keep my Trek and sell off the good parts and
reduce their out-of-pocket. I really don't care what their bottom line is.
My priority is just getting well again and getting back on a bike.

Am I out of line? Should I just suck up the loss, and spend more bucks out
of pocket to replace a bike that was perfectly fine for me? I didn't get a
lawyer. I hope I don't regret that decision.

Jurgen

[Slartibartfast]

In article >,
says...
> they want to depreciate the bike. However, it isn't my fault I have to buy
> a replacement bike. Their client put me in this position. I would accept a
> reduced settlement to purchase a comparable used bike, but that requires
> time that I really am not prepared to give. Who knows how long it will take
> to find a quality used bike in the right size and proper setup to suit my
> needs?
>

First of all, I am really sorry that you got hurt. But the problem is
that from the insurance company's point of view none of that stuff is
relevant. Liability insurance is always targeted towards a depreciated
value. They are paying for you to replace your *used* bike, and sadly
enough, the fact that it is hard to replace is not relevant. In fact,
you would be better off if you had bought expensive upgrades because you
would have those receipts to back you up. They have to go by some
measure to determine depreciation. They can either just do some linear
method, or they can look at the value you have put into it over time for
upgrades. Consider yourself luck that they are even looking at your
upgrades -- they don't have to.

> At this point, I am leaning towards buying the new bike I want, a Giant TCR
> composite, and settling later with the insurance company. I am/was prepared
> to spend a little more to get a nice new bike, but I cannot make it happen
> if they offer me 20-30% less than I paid for the bike. $1000 wouldn't even
> come close to buying what I have now, at least not in a reasonable
> timeframe. Not only do they want to screw me over by forcing me to
> downgrade, but they also get to keep my Trek and sell off the good parts and
> reduce their out-of-pocket.

Oh please. Do you really think Trek is going to part out your bike?
They will either throw it in the dumpster or sell it at auction for $50
or something. It would cost them far more in time to part it out than
they could ever make.

> I really don't care what their bottom line is.
> My priority is just getting well again and getting back on a bike.
>

You may not care about their bottom line, but rest assured they do.
They also don't care at all about getting you back on a bike.

> Am I out of line? Should I just suck up the loss, and spend more bucks out
> of pocket to replace a bike that was perfectly fine for me? I didn't get a
> lawyer. I hope I don't regret that decision.
>

A lawyer is not going to touch you getting screwed about the value of
your bike. They might be interested in the whole pain and suffering
bit, but those kinds of lawyers typically take 50% or so of any
settlement.

If this kind of loss is a hardship for you, then you might consider
getting some kind of replacement insurance, like renters insurance or
similar. This would pay to replace your bike with a brand new
equivalent. It would be the equivalent of comprehensive insurance on a
car. You can check rates to see if that would be worth it to you.

I know it sucks, but I don't think you have much of a basic to do
anything on the depreciated bike claim. That is just how that stuff
works.

[example.com]

So, shouldn't they cover a replacement vehicle up and until they reach a
settlement with you??
(get it in writing)
Rent a car as a replacement vehicle, even if you don't drive it - just let
it sit so they can pay for it.
And isn't the pain increasing (even as I write this) ??
Pain is very hard to judge, I would imagine that you probably need a cane or
crutches to get around (and especially to your next meeting with the
insurance adjuster).
Why, you might even be suffering so much that you need a wheelchair for that
next meeting, and have to hire a medical transporter service to get you
there...
I'm suffering from back pain even thinking about it.
Oh yeah, sometimes accidents like you describe have long term side effects
which result in reduction in functionality "down there", what a devastating
loss you've had.

Do not let them settle this piece by piece, and every time they try to
reduce the amount for the bike, say something like, "You know, I really
think we should concentrate on the larger matter, I'm still in considerable
pain, and I think we should be talking about doubling (tripling, quitupling)
that amount..."
They might get the idea.


"Slartibartfast" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
> > they want to depreciate the bike. However, it isn't my fault I have to
buy
> > a replacement bike. Their client put me in this position. I would
accept a
> > reduced settlement to purchase a comparable used bike, but that requires
> > time that I really am not prepared to give. Who knows how long it will
take
> > to find a quality used bike in the right size and proper setup to suit
my
> > needs?
> >
>
> First of all, I am really sorry that you got hurt. But the problem is
> that from the insurance company's point of view none of that stuff is
> relevant. Liability insurance is always targeted towards a depreciated
> value. They are paying for you to replace your *used* bike, and sadly
> enough, the fact that it is hard to replace is not relevant. In fact,
> you would be better off if you had bought expensive upgrades because you
> would have those receipts to back you up. They have to go by some
> measure to determine depreciation. They can either just do some linear
> method, or they can look at the value you have put into it over time for
> upgrades. Consider yourself luck that they are even looking at your
> upgrades -- they don't have to.
>
> > At this point, I am leaning towards buying the new bike I want, a Giant
TCR
> > composite, and settling later with the insurance company. I am/was
prepared
> > to spend a little more to get a nice new bike, but I cannot make it
happen
> > if they offer me 20-30% less than I paid for the bike. $1000 wouldn't
even
> > come close to buying what I have now, at least not in a reasonable
> > timeframe. Not only do they want to screw me over by forcing me to
> > downgrade, but they also get to keep my Trek and sell off the good parts
and
> > reduce their out-of-pocket.
>
> Oh please. Do you really think Trek is going to part out your bike?
> They will either throw it in the dumpster or sell it at auction for $50
> or something. It would cost them far more in time to part it out than
> they could ever make.
>
> > I really don't care what their bottom line is.
> > My priority is just getting well again and getting back on a bike.
> >
>
> You may not care about their bottom line, but rest assured they do.
> They also don't care at all about getting you back on a bike.
>
> > Am I out of line? Should I just suck up the loss, and spend more bucks
out
> > of pocket to replace a bike that was perfectly fine for me? I didn't
get a
> > lawyer. I hope I don't regret that decision.
> >
>
> A lawyer is not going to touch you getting screwed about the value of
> your bike. They might be interested in the whole pain and suffering
> bit, but those kinds of lawyers typically take 50% or so of any
> settlement.
>
> If this kind of loss is a hardship for you, then you might consider
> getting some kind of replacement insurance, like renters insurance or
> similar. This would pay to replace your bike with a brand new
> equivalent. It would be the equivalent of comprehensive insurance on a
> car. You can check rates to see if that would be worth it to you.
>
> I know it sucks, but I don't think you have much of a basic to do
> anything on the depreciated bike claim. That is just how that stuff
> works.
>
>

[Jürgen Hartwig]

Thanks for the response. I guess I will just have to accept the facts.
I'll lose in round 1, but I'm going to punch harder in round 2. Oh well.

j

[frkrygowHALTSPAM]

Jürgen Hartwig wrote:


> Am I out of line? Should I just suck up the loss, and spend more bucks out
> of pocket to replace a bike that was perfectly fine for me? I didn't get a
> lawyer. I hope I don't regret that decision.

I haven't had that experience with a bike (thank goodness) but I've had
it with a car. Just an old, well-loved economy car, a model no longer
made. I'd spent a large amount of money getting the engine rebuilt,
plus some other work, so I could keep using it. Soon afterward, a
red-light-runner totaled it while my daughter was driving. He
immediately accepted all responsibility. (It was very clear cut, with
witnesses, etc.)

The insurance adjuster wanted to give me the low end of the book value
for the car. I mentioned the considerable investment I'd made to be
able to keep using the car. He said I'd simply made a bad investment,
and that it wasn't their concern. I felt exactly as you do.

I talked with several friends who worked for insurance companies. They
said to not accept an offer I didn't believe was fair. One said that
insurance adjusters don't want to pay more than they have to, but they
hate to have "open" files left on their desks.

So I stonewalled him. Fortunately, I could wait for the money. I just
kept explaining I wasn't satisfied, I kept explaining why the car was
worth more to me. His phone calls became less and less frequent.

Finally, at least a month after the incident, he called again and said
"Exactly how much money would you need to settle this right now?" I
figured we were going to dicker, so I shot about $300 high.

There was silence for a couple seconds, then he said "OK. The check
will be in the mail."


Borrow a bike from a friend and stonewall.


--
Frank Krygowski

[Doug]

Hey:

CONSULT WITH AN ATTORNEY ASAP!

If the insurer already wants to pay medicals, "pain & suffering" and
economic damages (lost income), it probably has some exposure, and it is
likely low-balling you on a settlement amount because it knows you are both
unrepresented, and unpracticed in legal and insurance-related matters.

Yes, personal injury attorneys generally work on contingency -- usually 1/3
plus expenses. That being said, most will initially consult with you for
free and assess the strengths and weaknesses of your case. If the insurer
is offering a fair settlement now, a reputable attorney will tell you to
take it. However, a good PI attorney may be able to obtain a better
settlement, and will not be duped by the insurer. I bet if you even
mention to the claims adjuster that you are planning to consult with an
attorney regarding the settlement of your claims, the insurer will offer
more $$$.

In any event, don't sign anything until you at least consult with an
attorney.

Lastly, if you have any injuries that may be lasting, or that may cause you
problems later, you MAY NOT WANT TO SETTLE YOUR CLAIMS NOW ! Find out what
the limitations period is in your state, and assess your damages after you
have a better sense of the permanency of your injuries. It may turn out
that you're just fine. It may not.

Just by example, a teammate of mine was hit by a car a few years ago. He
though that he was OK -- just a sprained wrist. He wanted to quickly settle
for a few thousand dollars -- enough to get a new bike. At the time, this
seemed fair to him. His injuries seemed relatively minor, and not of the
type that could be permanent. Four years later, my teammate still suffers
from significant wrist problems. It turns out that the wrist injury was far
more serious than initially thought. Because my teammate rushed to settle,
he is now without any recourse against the vehicle owner who hit him.




"Jürgen Hartwig" > wrote in message
...
> Last month I had an accident placing my bike and I against a Mercury
Sable.
> I lost. I have already contacted the at-fault driver's insurance company,
> and they are going to pay for my medical bills, time off work, and a sum
for
> pain and suffering. I should be alright, as long as I can shake some
> lingering back pain. Today, I met with a claim's specialist fromey:
> Progressive about my bike.
>
> She did not give me any problems about declaring the bike a total loss.
Two
> bike shops expressed concerns about the integrity of the carbon fiber
> frameset (1996ish Trek 2100). The problem now is that she refuses to pay
me
> any more than I paid for the bike + upgrades over the past year. I
> explained that I had shopped around for the best buys on the best
> components. It took me weeks and sometimes months to find the best deals
on
> parts, hunting Ebay and online classifieds to save a buck. If I add up
the
> price to buy a similiar bike + the component and wheel upgrades I arrive
at
> $1900, and this was using the absolute best prices available (online
> vendors) WITHOUT bargain hunting for months. However, my actual expenses
> (with receipts) over the past year total just under $1400, with the Trek
> 2100 being the only used item purchased (the components and wheelset were
> brand new). The accident was not my fault. I do not feel it is
reasonable
> for them to expect me to bargain shop (eating up more weeks and dozens of
> additional hours) while I have no bike to ride (before the accident I road
> 5-6 times per week, 30+ miles per ride). In addition, a comparably
equipped
> bicycle today (carbon/aluminum frameset with Ultegra/Centaur components)
is
> between $1750-2100. I do understand the viewpoint of the insurance
company:
> they want to depreciate the bike. However, it isn't my fault I have to
buy
> a replacement bike. Their client put me in this position. I would accept
a
> reduced settlement to purchase a comparable used bike, but that requires
> time that I really am not prepared to give. Who knows how long it will
take
> to find a quality used bike in the right size and proper setup to suit my
> needs?
>
> At this point, I am leaning towards buying the new bike I want, a Giant
TCR
> composite, and settling later with the insurance company. I am/was
prepared
> to spend a little more to get a nice new bike, but I cannot make it happen
> if they offer me 20-30% less than I paid for the bike. $1000 wouldn't
even
> come close to buying what I have now, at least not in a reasonable
> timeframe. Not only do they want to screw me over by forcing me to
> downgrade, but they also get to keep my Trek and sell off the good parts
and
> reduce their out-of-pocket. I really don't care what their bottom line
is.
> My priority is just getting well again and getting back on a bike.
>
> Am I out of line? Should I just suck up the loss, and spend more bucks
out
> of pocket to replace a bike that was perfectly fine for me? I didn't get
a
> lawyer. I hope I don't regret that decision.
>
> Jurgen
>
>

[Jürgen Hartwig]

<snip>

> I talked with several friends who worked for insurance companies. They
> said to not accept an offer I didn't believe was fair. One said that
> insurance adjusters don't want to pay more than they have to, but they
> hate to have "open" files left on their desks.
>
> So I stonewalled him. Fortunately, I could wait for the money. I just
> kept explaining I wasn't satisfied, I kept explaining why the car was
> worth more to me. His phone calls became less and less frequent.
>
> Finally, at least a month after the incident, he called again and said
> "Exactly how much money would you need to settle this right now?" I
> figured we were going to dicker, so I shot about $300 high.
>
> There was silence for a couple seconds, then he said "OK. The check
> will be in the mail."


Thanks. This is exactly the type of information I really need. The agent
was pretty adamant about not paying a penny more than I had spent on the
bike. She even told me she MIGHT do me a big favor and NOT depreciate the
expenses. I knew we weren't seeing eye to eye, so I decided to stop
negotiating. Being off my bike has caused a lot of frustration, and I'm
just getting impatient and bitter, particularly while the riding weather is
still spectacular here in Tennessee. I knew things were looking bad when
she declined any references or contacts at bike shops. She just wanted my
receipts (thank goodness for Paypal history).

Fortunately, I do not need to settle immediately, and I can afford to play
games. I was hoping today's meeting would have gone smoothly, but it looks
like this might drag on for at least a few more weeks or months.

I hinted to the agents it is in their best interests to get me back on the
saddle ASAP, but that seems to fall on deaf ears. In their attempts to
squeeze the penny, many dollars float away in the breeze. Go figure. :)

I'll reply with any news in the hopes it will save another cyclist some
future heartache.

Regards,
Jurgen

[Q.]

Get a lawyer.

I was a victim in an accident about 10 years ago that resulted in a major
concussion that I still suffer from to this day. Believe me, you may be an
honest guy, but the insurance companies aren't honest or fair. They want to
keep their money, plain and simple. They make their profit screwing honest
folk.

The first mistake you made was talking to them at all. Every conversation
you have with them is recorded, and they will use it against you. In fact,
it's the only reason they call ... they sound all nice on the phone like
they care about you, but it's a scam. They're just trying to get you to
screw yourself and you did, quite well actually (no offense).

You should never have told them what you paid for the bike ... with
insurance companies, you have to "pad" the claim to get what's rightfully
yours. Whenever I've been hit in a car, I always got estimates to fix it
.... and instead of giving them the lowest 2 estimates, I gave them the
HIGHEST 2 estimates! Since they're trying to screw you, that way you end up
with a fair amount somewhere in the middle.

Get a lawyer, and don't talk to the insurance company ever again yourself.
Please, trust me. My medical bills came out to six figures, and if I had
been a nice guy I would have lost my house. Insurance companies are
bordering on criminal behavior most of the time ... treat them as if they
were rattlesnakes.

And don't think your back problem will go away either. My head injury never
went away ... it got better after a while, but it still bothers me every
week. In fact, it was about a week or two after the accident that my head
got much worse, and I spent the next year in and out of the hospital.

Get a lawyer. A good one. Don't think you can play their games on the same
level, you can't. They're much better at this than you are.

C.Q.C.

"Jürgen Hartwig" > wrote in message
...
> Last month I had an accident placing my bike and I against a Mercury
Sable.
> I lost. I have already contacted the at-fault driver's insurance company,
> and they are going to pay for my medical bills, time off work, and a sum
for
> pain and suffering. I should be alright, as long as I can shake some
> lingering back pain. Today, I met with a claim's specialist from
> Progressive about my bike.
>
> She did not give me any problems about declaring the bike a total loss.
Two
> bike shops expressed concerns about the integrity of the carbon fiber
> frameset (1996ish Trek 2100). The problem now is that she refuses to pay
me
> any more than I paid for the bike + upgrades over the past year. I
> explained that I had shopped around for the best buys on the best
> components. It took me weeks and sometimes months to find the best deals
on
> parts, hunting Ebay and online classifieds to save a buck. If I add up
the
> price to buy a similiar bike + the component and wheel upgrades I arrive
at
> $1900, and this was using the absolute best prices available (online
> vendors) WITHOUT bargain hunting for months. However, my actual expenses
> (with receipts) over the past year total just under $1400, with the Trek
> 2100 being the only used item purchased (the components and wheelset were
> brand new). The accident was not my fault. I do not feel it is
reasonable
> for them to expect me to bargain shop (eating up more weeks and dozens of
> additional hours) while I have no bike to ride (before the accident I road
> 5-6 times per week, 30+ miles per ride). In addition, a comparably
equipped
> bicycle today (carbon/aluminum frameset with Ultegra/Centaur components)
is
> between $1750-2100. I do understand the viewpoint of the insurance
company:
> they want to depreciate the bike. However, it isn't my fault I have to
buy
> a replacement bike. Their client put me in this position. I would accept
a
> reduced settlement to purchase a comparable used bike, but that requires
> time that I really am not prepared to give. Who knows how long it will
take
> to find a quality used bike in the right size and proper setup to suit my
> needs?
>
> At this point, I am leaning towards buying the new bike I want, a Giant
TCR
> composite, and settling later with the insurance company. I am/was
prepared
> to spend a little more to get a nice new bike, but I cannot make it happen
> if they offer me 20-30% less than I paid for the bike. $1000 wouldn't
even
> come close to buying what I have now, at least not in a reasonable
> timeframe. Not only do they want to screw me over by forcing me to
> downgrade, but they also get to keep my Trek and sell off the good parts
and
> reduce their out-of-pocket. I really don't care what their bottom line
is.
> My priority is just getting well again and getting back on a bike.
>
> Am I out of line? Should I just suck up the loss, and spend more bucks
out
> of pocket to replace a bike that was perfectly fine for me? I didn't get
a
> lawyer. I hope I don't regret that decision.
>
> Jurgen
>
>

[Dennis P. Harris]

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 01:03:14 GMT in rec.bicycles.misc, "Jürgen
Hartwig" > wrote:

> Am I out of line? Should I just suck up the loss, and spend more bucks out
> of pocket to replace a bike that was perfectly fine for me? I didn't get a
> lawyer. I hope I don't regret that decision.
>
you might want to have an attorney write a letter for you (one
that you've drafted, to save his time and your $$$) --- stating
that the prices you have quoted are for an equivalent bike, and
you won't settle for less. they're likely to back down if it's
on a lawyer's letterhead, in hopes that they can avoid the cost
of a trial. oh, and don't forget to add the legal expenses of
the letter to the cost of the bike.

[Doug Huffman]

My condolences on your loss.

I ride a wonderful bike that I specced from my builder when cost was no
object. It weighs 40-ish pounds and has given me 30,000 miles in less than
six years. It cost me $6K and is possibly irreplaceable - Phil Wood doesn't
list the rear hub any more, for instance.

I bought a replacement cost policy from my major ins. co., a sports
equipment policy. I paid cash for it. When I received the policy I found
that nearly every paragraph excluded bicycles. I bailed on that idea!

I often argue that the problems with the membership and advocacy of the LAB
and NRA are analogous. Here is an opportunity for the LAB to step up and
provide the insurance policy that we need.


>
> Am I out of line? Should I just suck up the loss, and spend more bucks
out
> of pocket to replace a bike that was perfectly fine for me? I didn't get
a
> lawyer. I hope I don't regret that decision.
>
> Jurgen
>
>

[Doug Goodwin]

"Jürgen Hartwig" > wrote in
:

> Thanks for the response. I guess I will just have to accept the facts.
> I'll lose in round 1, but I'm going to punch harder in round 2. Oh well.
>
> j
>
>
>


Insurance companies don't give a good crap about how you feel and how much
you lost.

BTW, glad you're doing OK

I would strongly suggest you talk to a lawyer about the entire situation,
and I would let the insurance company know you're doing it. They should be
making you whole by replacing your bike, and not by offering up some
depreciated amount. That's pure BS; the appraiser only wants to keep the
economic impact on the company to a minimum. Look in the yellow pages for a
lawyer who handles bike accidents; there are a lot of them around. In fact
there may be one in your local bike club. Most, if not all, will not charge
you a thing to discuss the preliminaries, and figure on a plan. It might
cost a buck or two [to be claimed against the insurance co. also], but with
a shark involved, the appraiser will know you're not going to roll over for
any lo-ball number that s/he throws out. It could be as simple as a letter
from "your" lawyer to the appraiser that solves everything, and MAKES YOU
WHOLE in the matter.

Had the same situation 3 years ago, and handled it this way. You'd be
surprised on how quickly the check for property damage was cut, at my
number for the replacement bike.

You do have to have a bit of an adversarial attitude with the insurance
company, otherwise you'll get screwed.

Good luck

--
Doug
YMMV

Human beings are perhaps never more frightening than when they are
convinced beyond doubt that they are right.
-- Laurens Van der Post

[Jürgen Hartwig]

> You do have to have a bit of an adversarial attitude with the insurance
> company, otherwise you'll get screwed.


Before this accident, I would not agree with you. Now, I wholeheartedly
agree.

I've decided to wait them out. I typed and delivered a thoughtful letter
which summarizes the property damages. They know exactly what I need to
make things right, and I won't sign anything or release my bike until they
match my request.

I am a landlord by profession. I give every person huge latitude, but when
they cross the line, I become a superjackarse. I shall prevail, and I shall
deliver sufficient abuse to acquire satisfaction.

This has been a valuable learning experience, but one I wish not to relive
again.

<note to self: nice guys finish last>

Regards,
Jurgen

[Dennis P. Harris]

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 23:12:58 GMT in rec.bicycles.misc, "Jürgen
Hartwig" > wrote:

> I am a landlord by profession.

if you're a landlord, you probably have an attorney who doesn't
take any crap. use her/him to deal with the insurance company,
since they'll take you much more seriously when there's an
attorney involved.

[Steven M. Scharf]

"Jürgen Hartwig" > wrote in message
...

> Am I out of line? Should I just suck up the loss, and spend more bucks
out
> of pocket to replace a bike that was perfectly fine for me? I didn't get
a
> lawyer. I hope I don't regret that decision.

You don't even have to get a lawyer, just tell them that you are going to
retain one.
Mumble something about a chiropractor as well. There is no more hated word
among
insurance companies than "chiropractor."

[Q.]

> You don't even have to get a lawyer, just tell them that you are going to
> retain one.
> Mumble something about a chiropractor as well. There is no more hated word
> among
> insurance companies than "chiropractor."

Uhhhh ... no. You can't bluff these guys, they're better at being scummy.

A lot of insurance companies, if you say you're going to retain a lawyer,
their policy is to stop talking to you. You better be ready to have them
call your bluff.

Oh, and yeah, don't mumble something about a chiropractor ... this isn't a
TV sitcom, it's real life and the potential for your life to be ruined if
you play games like that. If you're going to do that, get a lawyer to tell
them in writing.

C.Q.C.

[Diablo Scott]

"Steven M. Scharf" > wrote in message . net>...
> "Jürgen Hartwig" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Am I out of line? Should I just suck up the loss, and spend more bucks
> out
> > of pocket to replace a bike that was perfectly fine for me? I didn't get
> a
> > lawyer. I hope I don't regret that decision.
>
> You don't even have to get a lawyer, just tell them that you are going to
> retain one.
> Mumble something about a chiropractor as well. There is no more hated word
> among
> insurance companies than "chiropractor."

How much you paid for the bicyle is entirely irrelevant to this case,
it's how much the bicycle costs to replace. Imagine if it were a gift
- what would be the insurance company's reference then? When a
similar thing happened to me (I had a used bike) I took the specs for
my bike to a store that carried the same brand and had them write up a
replacement cost estimate and that's what the insurance company used.
It doesn't have to be all the same stuff, but it has to be an
equivalent bike and the insurance company might call another bike shop
to verify your estimate and the equivalency factor. You may or may
not have to actually buy the bike in the estimate to get the money.
The adjuster in this case is looking for some ceiling and just decided
that your original cost would be an easy way to set the max payout -
you just need to change her mind and provide an alternate reference.

Also, after this is all over the insurance company will be happy to
sell your damaged bike back to you for a very good price if you want
the parts. They really don't want to deal with it and you'll probably
never have to part with it at all.

As far as getting a lawyer - you'd better be bloody sure your injuries
aren't more serious than you've described to do this without one.

[Jürgen Hartwig]

Alright, I'll admit it now. Everything that has happened has been a royal
pain in the rear. If I had to do it over again I would have hired a lawyer.
I'm not interested in sueing the socks off anyone, but the accident
aftermath has consumed a lot of hours. It has not consumed many actual
hours of work, but there isn't an hour that goes by where I don't think
about the accident and second-guess each step. What if this and what if
that. Each minute I dwell on the accident is another minute I lose for
work or play. Instead of spending 2 hours writing a letter and copying
receipts, I could be jogging with the dog. Well, the insurance company
could care less about this fact. Live and learn.

Anyway, I'm going to wait these guys out until they are ready to make things
right. However, I don't know how long this will take. I have my eyes on a
Giant TCR Composite. I planned to take the insurance money + $400 extra and
buy this nice bike. It's more than I need, but I want something that can
grow with me in the next 3-5 years logging 5-7k miles per year. If you were
in my shoes, would you buy this bike now? Or, would you wait????

Jurgen

[Sorni]

"Jürgen Hartwig" > wrote in message
...
> Alright, I'll admit it now. Everything that has happened has been a royal
> pain in the rear. If I had to do it over again I would have hired a
lawyer.
> I'm not interested in sueing the socks off anyone, but the accident
> aftermath has consumed a lot of hours. It has not consumed many actual
> hours of work, but there isn't an hour that goes by where I don't think
> about the accident and second-guess each step. What if this and what if
> that. Each minute I dwell on the accident is another minute I lose for
> work or play. Instead of spending 2 hours writing a letter and copying
> receipts, I could be jogging with the dog. Well, the insurance company
> could care less about this fact. Live and learn.
>
> Anyway, I'm going to wait these guys out until they are ready to make
things
> right. However, I don't know how long this will take. I have my eyes on
a
> Giant TCR Composite. I planned to take the insurance money + $400 extra
and
> buy this nice bike. It's more than I need, but I want something that can
> grow with me in the next 3-5 years logging 5-7k miles per year. If you
were
> in my shoes, would you buy this bike now? Or, would you wait????

Buy it now. Enjoy it for years. The money doesn't really matter in the
long run.

Bill "doesn't mean you shouldn't fight for what's right, though" S.

[Doug Goodwin]

"Jürgen Hartwig" > wrote in
:

> Alright, I'll admit it now. Everything that has happened has been a
> royal pain in the rear. If I had to do it over again I would have
> hired a lawyer. I'm not interested in sueing the socks off anyone, but
> the accident aftermath has consumed a lot of hours. It has not
> consumed many actual hours of work, but there isn't an hour that goes
> by where I don't think about the accident and second-guess each step.
> What if this and what if that. Each minute I dwell on the accident
> is another minute I lose for work or play. Instead of spending 2
> hours writing a letter and copying receipts, I could be jogging with
> the dog. Well, the insurance company could care less about this fact.
> Live and learn.
>
> Anyway, I'm going to wait these guys out until they are ready to make
> things right. However, I don't know how long this will take. I have
> my eyes on a Giant TCR Composite. I planned to take the insurance
> money + $400 extra and buy this nice bike. It's more than I need, but
> I want something that can grow with me in the next 3-5 years logging
> 5-7k miles per year. If you were in my shoes, would you buy this bike
> now? Or, would you wait????
>
> Jurgen
>
>

You need to talk to a lawyer! The longer you procrastinate, the less you
will end up with from the insurance company. You can't wait them out, as
you suggest. It doesn't matter if you didn't have a lawyer earlier in this
situation. But do talk to one now. The potential outlay to do so is minor
relative to what you could be out of pocket by dealing with the insurance
scumbags on your own.

Oh, and it's not a matter of "suing the socks off anyone", it's a matter of
PROTECTING your interests.

--
Doug
YMMV

Human beings are perhaps never more frightening than when they are
convinced beyond doubt that they are right.
-- Laurens Van der Post

[Q.]

"Jürgen Hartwig" > wrote
<snip>
> Anyway, I'm going to wait these guys out until they are ready to make
things
> right. However, I don't know how long this will take.
<snip>

Insurance companies love to wait it out.

Think about it for a minute ... let's say an insurance company has to pay
out 50 million dollars in claims this year. If they can delay paying each
of those claims for a month, think about how much extra money they get from
their investments and such.

Don't underestimate how badly you may be hurt. If damage occurred, you'll
never be 100 % again.

C.Q.C.

[Jürgen Hartwig]

> You need to talk to a lawyer! The longer you procrastinate, the less you
> will end up with from the insurance company. You can't wait them out, as
> you suggest. It doesn't matter if you didn't have a lawyer earlier in this
> situation. But do talk to one now. The potential outlay to do so is minor
> relative to what you could be out of pocket by dealing with the insurance
> scumbags on your own.
>
> Oh, and it's not a matter of "suing the socks off anyone", it's a matter
of
> PROTECTING your interests.


OK, point noted. My father has prodded me to get a lawyer. I'll start
looking first thing tomorrow morning.

Thanks, Doug and Q.

Jurgen

[Doug Goodwin]

"Jürgen Hartwig" > wrote in
:

>> You need to talk to a lawyer! The longer you procrastinate, the less
>> you will end up with from the insurance company. You can't wait them
>> out, as you suggest. It doesn't matter if you didn't have a lawyer
>> earlier in this situation. But do talk to one now. The potential
>> outlay to do so is minor relative to what you could be out of pocket
>> by dealing with the insurance scumbags on your own.
>>
>> Oh, and it's not a matter of "suing the socks off anyone", it's a
>> matter
> of
>> PROTECTING your interests.
>
>
> OK, point noted. My father has prodded me to get a lawyer. I'll
> start looking first thing tomorrow morning.
>
> Thanks, Doug and Q.
>
> Jurgen
>
>
>

Your welcome.

Oh, and good show.

We crash dummies have to stick together!

--
Doug
YMMV

Human beings are perhaps never more frightening than when they are
convinced beyond doubt that they are right.
-- Laurens Van der Post

[Dennis P. Harris]

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:11:46 GMT in rec.bicycles.misc, "Jürgen
Hartwig" > wrote:

> Alright, I'll admit it now. Everything that has happened has been a royal
> pain in the rear. If I had to do it over again I would have hired a lawyer.

you can still do so.

> I'm not interested in sueing the socks off anyone, but the accident
> aftermath has consumed a lot of hours. It has not consumed many actual
> hours of work, but there isn't an hour that goes by where I don't think
> about the accident and second-guess each step. What if this and what if
> that. Each minute I dwell on the accident is another minute I lose for
> work or play. Instead of spending 2 hours writing a letter and copying
> receipts, I could be jogging with the dog. Well, the insurance company
> could care less about this fact. Live and learn.
>
you can still get a lawyer and stop worrying.

> Anyway, I'm going to wait these guys out until they are ready to make things
> right. However, I don't know how long this will take.

you could wait a long time. they have NO incentive to settle
UNTIL YOU GET SERIOUS. that means getting a lawyer. insurance
companies have hundreds of these weasels ripping the flesh of
naive folks like you who "don't want to get lawyers involved" or
think that insurance companies will do the right thing without an
incentive to do so.

if you have a lawyer write a letter for you, they WILL take you
seriously. otherwise, they know that they have you outgunned.