the specilized infinity tyre - my unfortunate experience of

[dschmittz]

If my recent experience is anything to go by *do no* repeat *do not*
buy these tyres – they are a complete and utter waste of your money
and your time

a bit of background - most of my cycling is on paved roads but I do a
bit of off-roading – nothing heavy duty – light gravel stuff – my bike
is a bog standard hybrid – nothing flash – I tend to go for cheap &
cheerful tyres – and for the last ten odd years I've bought the
michelin ‘world tour' – unfortunately michelin seem to have taken
their eye off the ball with the ‘world tour' and I had to give them up
because their wire bead was coming detached from the tyre in next to
no time and I mean that next to no time – hell some of the tyres were
virtually brand new

I asked around and some enterprising sales assistant persuaded me that
the ‘specialized infinity' would be worth investing in – it only came
in a 32c when I would rather have had a 35c but what do I know – the
guy went on about it having some magical puncture resisting system
called ‘kevlar' so I forked out for a couple and what a disaster

I had them on my bike for a max two weeks after which I gave up and
took them off – why? well to start with the max recommended inflate
rating was 7 bar so to 7 bar they went and every time I got on the
bike I ended up with a single slit pinch flat – not your ‘snake bite'
pinch but always a single slit

for some reason I thought to lower the inflate to 6 bar and besides
being a more comfortable ride it seemed to knock the pinch flats on
the head except that then I started getting punctures proper – like
every time I went out – these tyres just seemed to love getting
punctured

but for the beading problem the michelin ‘world tour's - no kevlar -
at two thirds of the price were a much safer bet

my preferred choice of the michelin was no longer a safe bet – their
replacement the infinity was now also a very definite non starter so
what have I done?

well I'm trying the continental ‘travel contact' – why? well in my
area continental are selling them with a free inner tube and a one
year guarantee against ‘loss of air' – that's a flat in my language
and they've got kelvar

I've been out on both paved roads and off-road a few times with them –
they are inflate rated to only 5 bar and so far no flats – the shop I
got them from had a cross section sample showing the kevlar layer and
pretty impressive it looked too – but what do I know?

kevlar is orange in colour - so I'm hoping they do the trick – by the
way the infinity tyres are supposed to have kevlar too but when I was
checking them for the puncture holes I was able to get a cross section
view in places – albeit small – so I dug out a magnifying glass and if
they have kevlar in them it isn't orange

on a scale of one to ten I'd have to rate the infinity at *less than
zero* – i.e. off the scale – a no show

[John Henderson]

dschmittz wrote:

> If my recent experience is anything to go by *do no* repeat *do not*
> buy these tyres – they are a complete and utter waste of your money
> and your time
>
> a bit of background - most of my cycling is on paved roads but I do a
> bit of off-roading – nothing heavy duty – light gravel stuff – my bike
> is a bog standard hybrid – nothing flash – I tend to go for cheap &
> cheerful tyres – and for the last ten odd years I've bought the
> michelin ‘world tour' – unfortunately michelin seem to have taken
> their eye off the ball with the ‘world tour' and I had to give them up
> because their wire bead was coming detached from the tyre in next to
> no time and I mean that next to no time – hell some of the tyres were
> virtually brand new
>
> I asked around and some enterprising sales assistant persuaded me that
> the ‘specialized infinity' would be worth investing in – it only came
> in a 32c when I would rather have had a 35c but what do I know – the
> guy went on about it having some magical puncture resisting system
> called ‘kevlar' so I forked out for a couple and what a disaster
>
> I had them on my bike for a max two weeks after which I gave up and
> took them off – why? well to start with the max recommended inflate
> rating was 7 bar so to 7 bar they went and every time I got on the
> bike I ended up with a single slit pinch flat – not your ‘snake bite'
> pinch but always a single slit
>
> for some reason I thought to lower the inflate to 6 bar and besides
> being a more comfortable ride it seemed to knock the pinch flats on
> the head except that then I started getting punctures proper – like
> every time I went out – these tyres just seemed to love getting
> punctured
>
> but for the beading problem the michelin ‘world tour's - no kevlar -
> at two thirds of the price were a much safer bet
>
> my preferred choice of the michelin was no longer a safe bet – their
> replacement the infinity was now also a very definite non starter so
> what have I done?
>
> well I'm trying the continental ‘travel contact' – why? well in my
> area continental are selling them with a free inner tube and a one
> year guarantee against ‘loss of air' – that's a flat in my language
> and they've got kelvar
>
> I've been out on both paved roads and off-road a few times with them –
> they are inflate rated to only 5 bar and so far no flats – the shop I
> got them from had a cross section sample showing the kevlar layer and
> pretty impressive it looked too – but what do I know?
>
> kevlar is orange in colour - so I'm hoping they do the trick – by the
> way the infinity tyres are supposed to have kevlar too but when I was
> checking them for the puncture holes I was able to get a cross section
> view in places – albeit small – so I dug out a magnifying glass and if
> they have kevlar in them it isn't orange
>
> on a scale of one to ten I'd have to rate the infinity at *less than
> zero* – i.e. off the scale – a no show

I find that many bike shop staff I talk to don't know the
difference between kevlar belts and kevlar beads.

I started switching the family's bikes over to Conti Travel
Contact tyres some time ago, and we've had no flats on them. I
know I'm tempting fate by saying that. But around here many
punctures are from small pieces of eucalyptus twigs, and I'd
expect kevlar belts to be effective against these.

John

[Chalo]

(dschmittz) wrote:

> kevlar is orange in colour -

No, Kevlar is a sort of yellow-tan color. It could have coloring
added to it or to a coating upon it.

> so I dug out a magnifying glass and if
> they have kevlar in them it isn't orange

DuPont is very jealous of its trademark. If the manufacturer says the
tires have Kevlar in them, they have Kevlar in them-- which is not to
say that they would be any better at resisting punctures than a normal
nylon (polyamide) casing tire. Generic Kevlar is called "aramid".
They are both tough woven materials, and like all woven materials they
offer essentially no resistance to punctures by sharply pointed
objects.

> on a scale of one to ten I'd have to rate the infinity at *less than
> zero* ? i.e. off the scale ? a no show

If they don't work for you, they don't work for you; try something
else. I have had good luck with the Continental Top Touring 2000
model, which comes in an abundance of sizes. Michelin's TransWorld
City model is another decent tire. Schwalbe's Marathon series tires
are also good.

An important thing to note is that no tires I have tried are effective
at avoiding all punctures, and many of them have sacrificed a good
deal of ride quality in the vain pursuit of flat-proofness.

Chalo Colina

[Carl Fogel]

(Chalo) wrote in message >...
> (dschmittz) wrote:
>
> > kevlar is orange in colour -
>
> No, Kevlar is a sort of yellow-tan color. It could have coloring
> added to it or to a coating upon it.
>
> > so I dug out a magnifying glass and if
> > they have kevlar in them it isn't orange
>
> DuPont is very jealous of its trademark. If the manufacturer says the
> tires have Kevlar in them, they have Kevlar in them-- which is not to
> say that they would be any better at resisting punctures than a normal
> nylon (polyamide) casing tire. Generic Kevlar is called "aramid".
> They are both tough woven materials, and like all woven materials they
> offer essentially no resistance to punctures by sharply pointed
> objects.
>
> > on a scale of one to ten I'd have to rate the infinity at *less than
> > zero* ? i.e. off the scale ? a no show
>
> If they don't work for you, they don't work for you; try something
> else. I have had good luck with the Continental Top Touring 2000
> model, which comes in an abundance of sizes. Michelin's TransWorld
> City model is another decent tire. Schwalbe's Marathon series tires
> are also good.
>
> An important thing to note is that no tires I have tried are effective
> at avoiding all punctures, and many of them have sacrificed a good
> deal of ride quality in the vain pursuit of flat-proofness.
>
> Chalo Colina

Dear Chalo,

I suspect that you're right in general about vain
attempts to prevent most punctures, but there may
be one peculiar advantage to the extra thickness
of a Kevlar belt.

While I gather that Kevlar offers little real
resistance to those filthy goat-head stickers,
a Kevlar belt can nevertheless thwart some of
them simply by adding thickness.

That is, the vile little needle-pointed hardwood
thorns still impale the tire, but their points are
often too short to pierce a tube with a Kevlar belt
in the way, particularly thicker "thorn-resistant"
tubes. Mr. Tuffy strips may work the same way.

Incidentally, do you see many goat-head or puncture
vine stickers around Seattle? A friend in Issaquah
can't recall any, but he's unlikely to have your
experience.

Carl Fogel

[A Muzi]

dschmittz wrote:
-snip bad experiences with tires recently-
> kevlar is orange in colour - so I'm hoping they do the trick – by the
> way the infinity tyres are supposed to have kevlar too but when I was
> checking them for the puncture holes I was able to get a cross section
> view in places – albeit small – so I dug out a magnifying glass and if
> they have kevlar in them it isn't orange

I can't comment on most of that since I am unfamilair with
some of the tire brands you mention but I do know that the
Aramid/Kevlar band under the tread can be any of a number of
colors - in its natural state it's a translucent beige but
commonly tinted.

I'm unfailiar with .fm (where?) but here (USA) the Michelin
World Tour is only sold in 27" size - and with an extremely
low return rate.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Carl Fogel]

A Muzi > wrote in message >...
> dschmittz wrote:
> -snip bad experiences with tires recently-
> > kevlar is orange in colour - so I'm hoping they do the trick – by the
> > way the infinity tyres are supposed to have kevlar too but when I was
> > checking them for the puncture holes I was able to get a cross section
> > view in places – albeit small – so I dug out a magnifying glass and if
> > they have kevlar in them it isn't orange
>
> I can't comment on most of that since I am unfamilair with
> some of the tire brands you mention but I do know that the
> Aramid/Kevlar band under the tread can be any of a number of
> colors - in its natural state it's a translucent beige but
> commonly tinted.
>
> I'm unfailiar with .fm (where?) but here (USA) the Michelin
> World Tour is only sold in 27" size - and with an extremely
> low return rate.

Dear Andrew,

www.fastmail.fm's faq:

Why is it fastmail.fm?
We wanted a name that represented what we were all
about, providing the fastest email service around.
Unfortunately in the .com cyber-squatting world,
all the names close to what we wanted were already
taken, so we chose to initially avoid the .com
address space and settled on .fm as something easy
to remember as a shortening of "Fast Mail".

For the interested, .fm is the top level domain of
the Federated Republic of Micronesia (a federation
of 4 states comprising more than 600 islands in the
Pacific).

Don't worry, none of our servers are located there,
we have standard servers and a high speed connection
in the US.

By the way, I just finished the "Labyrinths of Iron"
about subways, which you recommended. Thanks for
pandering to my taste for literary digressions in
engineering and history!

Carl Fogel

[Chalo]

(Carl Fogel) wrote:

> (Chalo) wrote:
>
> > An important thing to note is that no tires I have tried are effective
> > at avoiding all punctures, and many of them have sacrificed a good
> > deal of ride quality in the vain pursuit of flat-proofness.
>
> I suspect that you're right in general about vain
> attempts to prevent most punctures, but there may
> be one peculiar advantage to the extra thickness
> of a Kevlar belt.
>
> While I gather that Kevlar offers little real
> resistance to those filthy goat-head stickers,
> a Kevlar belt can nevertheless thwart some of
> them simply by adding thickness.

That's a good point, well illustrated by something I discovered this
last weekend at my corner bike shop. There was a little bundle of
cross-sections cut from a variety of Schwalbe tires, most of which had
Kevlar belts. One, however, had a really thick layer of soft squishy
rubber between tread and casing:

http://www.schwalbetires.com/press_marathon_plus.htm

I have no idea what this stuff does for ride quality, durability, or
handling characteristice, but it seems like it would be a great
defense against the seed cases of Tribulus Terrestris.

> Incidentally, do you see many goat-head or puncture
> vine stickers around Seattle?

No, thank God. The only puncture-inducing thorn I often come across
is that of the blackberry, tasty scourge of the Pacific Northwest.
Since their canes don't migrate, they do not prove to be a major
problem.

Chalo Colina

[Mike Latondresse]

(Chalo) wrote in
om:

> No, thank God. The only puncture-inducing thorn I often come
> across is that of the blackberry, tasty scourge of the Pacific
> Northwest. Since their canes don't migrate, they do not prove to
> be a major problem.
>
No, but they are a pain if you corner close on an inside corner and get
raked by them...we ride up Marine Dr. to Horseshoe Bay and many of the
lots have intrimed Blackberries that cause a significant blood loss.

[Carl Fogel]

(Chalo) wrote in message >...
> (Carl Fogel) wrote:
>
> > (Chalo) wrote:
> >
> > > An important thing to note is that no tires I have tried are effective
> > > at avoiding all punctures, and many of them have sacrificed a good
> > > deal of ride quality in the vain pursuit of flat-proofness.
> >
> > I suspect that you're right in general about vain
> > attempts to prevent most punctures, but there may
> > be one peculiar advantage to the extra thickness
> > of a Kevlar belt.
> >
> > While I gather that Kevlar offers little real
> > resistance to those filthy goat-head stickers,
> > a Kevlar belt can nevertheless thwart some of
> > them simply by adding thickness.
>
> That's a good point, well illustrated by something I discovered this
> last weekend at my corner bike shop. There was a little bundle of
> cross-sections cut from a variety of Schwalbe tires, most of which had
> Kevlar belts. One, however, had a really thick layer of soft squishy
> rubber between tread and casing:
>
> http://www.schwalbetires.com/press_marathon_plus.htm
>
> I have no idea what this stuff does for ride quality, durability, or
> handling characteristice, but it seems like it would be a great
> defense against the seed cases of Tribulus Terrestris.
>
> > Incidentally, do you see many goat-head or puncture
> > vine stickers around Seattle?
>
> No, thank God. The only puncture-inducing thorn I often come across
> is that of the blackberry, tasty scourge of the Pacific Northwest.
> Since their canes don't migrate, they do not prove to be a major
> problem.
>
> Chalo Colina

Dear Chalo,

Here's a classic goathead, posed to show how it
got its name, on a dime:

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/Goathead.jpg

My micrometer says the dime is about 0.705", so
you can have fun measuring the bejesus out of things
with a blown-up photo and calculating actual sizes.

The individual thorns are about a fifth of an inch
long, so a surprisingly small about of extra padding
can help--normal tread, Kevlar or whatever, and
thick-walled "thorn-resistant" inner-tube.

A friend of mine in the Seattle area shares your bear-like
interest in blackberries and other berries. The closest
that we come around here to such delights are the
Rocky Ford cantaloupes.

Carl Fogel

[David Reuteler]

In rec.bicycles.misc Carl Fogel > wrote:
: http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/Goathead.jpg

aaaiiyyy .. make it go away. you insensitive clod. i once embedded 11
of those little suckers in my rear wheel. i didn't have enough patches to
cover them all. couldn't use my spare tube 'cause it was, umm, previously
placed on the rear after getting 5 or so goat-heads about an hour before.

very traumatic.

teach me to off-road the cyclocross bike in denver in the fall. that was
my intro to goat-head thorns.
--
david reuteler

[Adam Rush]

> > No, thank God. The only puncture-inducing thorn I often come
> > across is that of the blackberry, tasty scourge of the Pacific
> > Northwest. Since their canes don't migrate, they do not prove to
> > be a major problem.
> >
> No, but they are a pain if you corner close on an inside corner and get
> raked by them...we ride up Marine Dr. to Horseshoe Bay and many of the
> lots have intrimed Blackberries that cause a significant blood loss.

By Job, I think we've discovered G. Daniels's alter ego!

[dschmittz]

Follow up to my original post:

The colour of kevlar ? I found this on the net ?Kevlar®: A gold
coloured aramid made by DuPont? ? anyone reckon that allows for both
orange and yellow tan?

I somewhat belatedly checked the specialized website
http://www.specialized.com/SBCEqProduct.jsp?spid=5543&JServSessionIdroot=yd3ri9yeb2.j27001

Seems I was misinformed by the sales assistant - apparently the basic
specialized infinity doesn?t have any kevlar in it ? instead it has
the specialized ?Proprietary Flak Jacket sub tread extrusion? which
?reduces flats by 60% while adding virtually no weight?

well whatever this proprietary flak jacket system is supposed to do it
certainly didn?t do it for me ? instead it went the other way and
increased my incidences of punctures by the 100?s of percent

as to the michelin world tour ? well I?d been using them for a good
number of years and originally they?d last to bald ? unfortunately
latterly I think michelin have let their quality control slip for I
increasingly found the wire bead was coming detached long before the
tyre was anywhere near bald and the last two I bought were virtually
new

shame really ? it was my ideal tyre ? cheap and cheerful and yes it
was a 27? tyre added to which it came in a 35c which was/is my
preferred size ? further more without any special puncture resistant
properties I found it to be a far superior tyre to the hyped
specialized infinity added to which I could?ve bought three michelin
world tours for the price of two specialized infinity tyres ? bead
permitting

as to an ?extremely low return rate? ? I?ve never thought of taking
them back ? I?d just get laughed at ? it?s kind of catch 22 like ? if
it?s defective they?ll take it back ? but only in mint condition and
if the bead has come of then it?s not in mint condition

for the record - specialised do do a infinity with a Dupont aramid in
it ? for some reason they don?t call it kevlar ? so it probably isn?t
http://www.specialized.com/SBCEqProduct.jsp?spid=5531&JServSessionIdroot=yd3ri9yeb2.j27001
- maybe that?s what I should?ve bought but now? think I?ll give
specialized a miss - once bitten twice shy and all that

maybe I was just unlucky

I still have to rate the basic ?flak jacket? specialized infinity zero
on a scale of one to ten and if anyone is thinking of buying the tyre
I?d have to caution think again

[Werehatrack]

On 15 Nov 2003 09:25:38 -0800, (dschmittz) may
have said:

>kevlar is orange in colour

Undyed Kevlar is a light tan, not really orange in my experience. I
uderstand that there are tints being used now, but I haven't seen any
yet.

>... by the
>way the infinity tyres are supposed to have kevlar too but when I was
>checking them for the puncture holes I was able to get a cross section
>view in places – albeit small – so I dug out a magnifying glass and if
>they have kevlar in them it isn't orange

The latter supposition is the logical one.

It should be remembered that two different types of "Kevlar
reinforced" tire may have wildly different amounts of it. Also, if
the Infinity is a folding tire, the Kevlar may be present only in the
bead.

Kevlar has become something of a "magic word" sales gimmick. I'm
starting to get very suspicious of its presence unless the details of
how it is used in the construction are explicitly described.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

[Todd Kuzma]

The belt in the Specialized Flak Jacket tires is a kevlar or
aramid belt made to Specialized's specs. Their Armadillo
tires use a different system that covers the tire from bead
to bead.

Any tire with a kevlar belt will be prone to punctures since
tacks and thorns can pierce the weave of the kevlar fabric.
Kevlar belts are intended to reduce the incidence of cuts,
not punctures.

Specialized's Armadillo casing is somewhat unique in that
they developed a process with DuPont in which they seal the
holes in the kevlar weave. So, these tires do provide quite
good puncture resistance at the expense of some weight.

Todd Kuzma
Heron Bicycles
Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery
LaSalle, Il 815-223-1776
http://www.heronbicycles.com
http://www.tullios.com

[Werehatrack]

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 21:06:13 -0600, A Muzi > may
have said:

>I'm unfailiar with .fm (where?) but here (USA) the Michelin
>World Tour is only sold in 27" size - and with an extremely
>low return rate.

OP's NNTP-posting-host line shows an IP in the UK. The email addy is
on a nationless service that picked the .fm TLD for artistic reasons.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

[Carl Fogel]

David Reuteler > wrote in message >...
> In rec.bicycles.misc Carl Fogel > wrote:
> : http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/Goathead.jpg
>
> aaaiiyyy .. make it go away. you insensitive clod. i once embedded 11
> of those little suckers in my rear wheel. i didn't have enough patches to
> cover them all. couldn't use my spare tube 'cause it was, umm, previously
> placed on the rear after getting 5 or so goat-heads about an hour before.
>
> very traumatic.
>
> teach me to off-road the cyclocross bike in denver in the fall. that was
> my intro to goat-head thorns.

Dear David,

Come, come, a little goat-head never hurt anyone.
It has only two wickedly sharp thorns.

Here, let me show you the enlarge button on your
viewer . . .

Now we adjust the little hooks that keep your
eyelids up . . .

A little Beethoven . . .

There! Better now? A few more sessions and we'll
have everything runnning like clockwork.

S. Kubrick and A. Burgess

[Jeff Wills]

(Chalo) wrote in message >...

> No, thank God. The only puncture-inducing thorn I often come across
> is that of the blackberry, tasty scourge of the Pacific Northwest.
> Since their canes don't migrate, they do not prove to be a major
> problem.
>
> Chalo Colina


They aren't, huh? The damned things practically get up and walk
'round Portland. Once springtime hits, the Vancouver Bicycle Club and
me hack back the vile things on the entrance to the I-205 bike path-
the blackberries have gotten ten feet deep at times.

They're a great excuse for breaking out my secret weapon: Godzilla the
Weedwacker. Eight horses of two-stroke spewin', steel-blade spinnin'
power. Thankfully I don't have to use it often.

Jeff

[David Kerber]

In article >,
says...
> (Chalo) wrote in message >...
>
> > No, thank God. The only puncture-inducing thorn I often come across
> > is that of the blackberry, tasty scourge of the Pacific Northwest.
> > Since their canes don't migrate, they do not prove to be a major
> > problem.
> >
> > Chalo Colina
>
>
> They aren't, huh? The damned things practically get up and walk
> 'round Portland. Once springtime hits, the Vancouver Bicycle Club and
> me hack back the vile things on the entrance to the I-205 bike path-
> the blackberries have gotten ten feet deep at times.
>
> They're a great excuse for breaking out my secret weapon: Godzilla the
> Weedwacker. Eight horses of two-stroke spewin', steel-blade spinnin'
> power. Thankfully I don't have to use it often.

An old-fashioned long-bladed scythe works pretty well, too.

[David Reuteler]

In rec.bicycles.misc Carl Fogel > wrote:
: S. Kubrick and A. Burgess

see ya at the milk bar.
--
david reuteler

[dschmittz]

Werehatrack > wrote in message >...
> On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 21:06:13 -0600, A Muzi > may
> have said:
>
> >I'm unfailiar with .fm (where?) but here (USA) the Michelin
> >World Tour is only sold in 27" size - and with an extremely
> >low return rate.
>
> OP's NNTP-posting-host line shows an IP in the UK. The email addy is
> on a nationless service that picked the .fm TLD for artistic reasons.

a 'nationless service'? and 'for artistic reasons'? - I wonder - cop
message 15 in the thread

[dschmittz]

Todd Kuzma > wrote in message >...
> The belt in the Specialized Flak Jacket tires is a kevlar or
> aramid belt made to Specialized's specs. Their Armadillo
> tires use a different system that covers the tire from bead
> to bead.
>
> Any tire with a kevlar belt will be prone to punctures since
> tacks and thorns can pierce the weave of the kevlar fabric.
> Kevlar belts are intended to reduce the incidence of cuts,
> not punctures.
>
> Specialized's Armadillo casing is somewhat unique in that
> they developed a process with DuPont in which they seal the
> holes in the kevlar weave. So, these tires do provide quite
> good puncture resistance at the expense of some weight.
>
> Todd Kuzma
> Heron Bicycles
> Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery
> LaSalle, Il 815-223-1776
> http://www.heronbicycles.com
> http://www.tullios.com


sorry but I'm going to have to disagree with you re the kevlar - clock
this link and drill down to what specialized has to say about the
standard 'specilized infinity' and their 'flak jacket' which it uses
http://www.specialized.com/SBCEqProduct.jsp?spid=5543&JServSessionIdroot=yd3ri9yeb2.j27001

for their 'flak jacket' system specialized make no reference to dupont
kevlar or any aramid and given it's alleged 'magical/marketing'
properties then if they were using kevlar I reckon they'd want to say
so

additionally clock this link re the 'specilized infinity armadillo'
http://www.specialized.com/SBCEqProduct.jsp?spid=5531&JServSessionIdroot=yd3ri9yeb2.j27001
and drill down for what specilized have to say about their
'armadillo' system (supposed to be an improvement on their flak jacket
system) and you'll see they mention they use a dupont aramid (same
chemical family as kevlar?) but again make no reference to it being
kevlar and once again given its alleged 'magical/marketing' properties
then if they were using it I'd reckon they'd say so

I've heard good things about their armadillo range but given my
extremely poor experience of their 'flak jacket' system which I
previously rated in this thread as zero on a scale of one thru ten I
think it'll be a good while before I trust anything specialized again
- this 'flak jacket' business really is - sadlly - in my experience -
rubbish

one final thing - this cut and puncture business - when I get a hole
in my inner tube because the outer tyre got a cut - however small -
letting thru a shard of glass I end up with a puncture

if you drill down thru the specialized site you'll see they boast that
they test their armadillo tyres by literally driving through glass and
if a system can afford a degree of anti glass protection - i.e. no
cuts - that in my book translates into fewer punctures

?bye

[Werehatrack]

On 19 Nov 2003 11:22:49 -0800, (dschmittz) may
have said:

>Werehatrack > wrote in message >...
>> On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 21:06:13 -0600, A Muzi > may
>> have said:
>>
>> >I'm unfailiar with .fm (where?) but here (USA) the Michelin
>> >World Tour is only sold in 27" size - and with an extremely
>> >low return rate.
>>
>> OP's NNTP-posting-host line shows an IP in the UK. The email addy is
>> on a nationless service that picked the .fm TLD for artistic reasons.
>
>a 'nationless service'? and 'for artistic reasons'? - I wonder - cop
>message 15 in the thread

The fastmail.fm service is not targeted to any specific country; they
serve anyone that wants what they offer. (This is, of course, not
uncommon on the Net.) As stated in their own information, they picked
the .fm TLD because it existed and matched their domain name of choice
nicely. (.fm is the Federal Republic of Micronesia, for those who are
still interested.)

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

[Buck]

"dschmittz" > wrote in message
om...

> sorry but I'm going to have to disagree with you re the kevlar - clock
> this link and drill down to what specialized has to say about the
> standard 'specilized infinity' and their 'flak jacket' which it uses
>
http://www.specialized.com/SBCEqProduct.jsp?spid=5543&JServSessionIdroot=yd3ri9yeb2.j27001
>
> for their 'flak jacket' system specialized make no reference to dupont
> kevlar or any aramid and given it's alleged 'magical/marketing'
> properties then if they were using kevlar I reckon they'd want to say
> so
>
> additionally clock this link re the 'specilized infinity armadillo'
>
http://www.specialized.com/SBCEqProduct.jsp?spid=5531&JServSessionIdroot=yd3ri9yeb2.j27001
> and drill down for what specilized have to say about their
> 'armadillo' system (supposed to be an improvement on their flak jacket
> system) and you'll see they mention they use a dupont aramid (same
> chemical family as kevlar?) but again make no reference to it being
> kevlar and once again given its alleged 'magical/marketing' properties
> then if they were using it I'd reckon they'd say so

Dang, people! Go to the source:
http://www.dupont.com/kevlar/whatiskevlar.html

Here's where DuPont says that Kevlar is aramid fiber:
KEVLAR® para-aramid fiber possesses a remarkable combination of properties
that has led to its adoption in a variety of end-uses since its commercial
introduction in the early 1970's.

KEVLAR is a trademark name for the aramid fiber DuPont developed.

As for their use in Specialized tires, this is a better reference:
http://www.specialized.com/specs/spec.jsp?speccode=tiretech&tablewidth=400&cellwidth=350

You are correct in that they do not mention either Aramid or Kevlar in their
Flakjacket tires, but they do give a detailed description of the use of
aramid in Armadillo tires.

I have used the armadillo tires with great success (no flats with those
tires). I have not used the flakjackets at all, so cannot comment on their
effectiveness.

-Buck

[Buck]

"Buck" <s c h w i n n _ f o r _ s a l e @ h o t m a i l . c o m> wrote in
message news:sZ3vb.8403

> You are correct in that they do not mention either Aramid or Kevlar in
their
> Flakjacket tires, but they do give a detailed description of the use of
> aramid in Armadillo tires.

Wouldn't you know it - right after I post, I find a mention of aramid in the
description of a flak-jacket tire:
http://www.specialized.com/SBCEqProduct.jsp?spid=5607&JServSessionIdroot=xyq1s5t4j1.j27002

-Buck

[Todd Kuzma]

dschmittz wrote:

> for their 'flak jacket' system specialized make no reference to dupont
> kevlar or any aramid and given it's alleged 'magical/marketing'
> properties then if they were using kevlar I reckon they'd want to say
> so

Check out the link that Buck posted about their
All-Condition Sport tire: "Exclusive Flak Jacket
aramid/elastomer subtread extrusion reduces flats by 60%
with less than 1gm weight penalty"

They also mentioned this in seminars that I have attended.

Todd Kuzma
Heron Bicycles
Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery
LaSalle, Il 815-223-1776
http://www.heronbicycles.com
http://www.tullios.com

[Werehatrack]

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 14:16:23 GMT, "Buck" <s c h w i n n _ f o r _ s a
l e @ h o t m a i l . c o m> may have said:

>"Buck" <s c h w i n n _ f o r _ s a l e @ h o t m a i l . c o m> wrote in
>message news:sZ3vb.8403
>
>> You are correct in that they do not mention either Aramid or Kevlar in
>their
>> Flakjacket tires, but they do give a detailed description of the use of
>> aramid in Armadillo tires.
>
>Wouldn't you know it - right after I post, I find a mention of aramid in the
>description of a flak-jacket tire:
>http://www.specialized.com/SBCEqProduct.jsp?spid=5607&JServSessionIdroot=xyq1s5t4j1.j27002

It is possible that Specialized may be multisourcing their aramid
supply; if they are doing so, they would not be entitled to use the
Kevlar name in their specs or advertising. While DuPont is, in my
experience, a remarkably reliable supplier, *any* manufacturer can run
into a situation where a required material from a known source can't
be had on short notice for a sudden unexpected requirement. I do not
know if this is the case with Specialized and DuPont in this instance;
I offer it solely as a way of showing that there could be a perfectly
innocuous reason for the non-use of the Kevlar trademark.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.