RR: Marconi 18-Jun-05

[ritcho]

Stick a fork in me, I'm done.

A beautiful winter's day greeted the 24 riders in B-grade as Marcon
hosted the club combine at the Western Sydney International Dragway
I've not raced at WSID before, the course included the main dragstri
for the finishing sprint and included a kind of L-shape as the cours
went around the carpark as well for a lap of about 3km.

B-grade set off for eighteen laps, including the first lap to be run a
a neutral as the course had been amended. The pace didn't pick up ver
much in the first couple of laps with no-one willing to push the pace
Parramatta, Penrith and Marconi were more or less equally represented
which seemed to cause some confusion over who should control the pace
The away teams pushed Marconi into the job.

A few laps passed and the attacks started - they didn't seem to be rea
attacks - more like ones designed to try to create a split in the bunch
All were unsuccessful as there were always plenty of people willing t
close the breaks down.... and so it went for most of the race. M
strategy, at least initially, was to gamble on no early breaks, but t
have a go a little after half-way. It was going well and at around 6 t
go, a likely-looking pair of Marconis took off and I jumped on the bac
and we pushed hard for a couple of laps, even getting a bit of a gap
Not enough though - there was still plenty of firepower left in th
bunch and we were reeled back in.

From the moment we were back together, I knew it was all over for me a
I spent a lot in trying to get away and I really don't have a fas
sprint. Sure enough, I went nowhere in the sprint and finishe
mid-field.

What did I learn? The strategy wasn't a bad one, but execution coul
have been a little better - picking the right group to go in a break i
the key. On reflection, there were a couple of riders that were a littl
stronger that I might have followed instead. A different strategy woul
have been to gamble on a bunch sprint and even though I don't have
strong sprint, if I had done absolutely no work at the front o
chasing, I'd have half a chance - but this strategy just isn'
satisfying for me - I want to have a go.

Oh well - at least it was a tailwind for the 30k ride home.

Ritc

--
ritcho

[BrettS]

ritcho wrote:

> Stick a fork in me, I'm done.
>
> A beautiful winter's day greeted the 24 riders in B-grade as Marconi
> hosted the club combine at the Western Sydney International Dragway.
> I've not raced at WSID before, the course included the main dragstrip
> for the finishing sprint and included a kind of L-shape as the course
> went around the carpark as well for a lap of about 3km.
>
> B-grade set off for eighteen laps, including the first lap to be run as
> a neutral as the course had been amended. The pace didn't pick up very
> much in the first couple of laps with no-one willing to push the pace.
> Parramatta, Penrith and Marconi were more or less equally represented,
> which seemed to cause some confusion over who should control the pace.
> The away teams pushed Marconi into the job.
>
> A few laps passed and the attacks started - they didn't seem to be real
> attacks - more like ones designed to try to create a split in the bunch.
> All were unsuccessful as there were always plenty of people willing to
> close the breaks down.... and so it went for most of the race. My
> strategy, at least initially, was to gamble on no early breaks, but to
> have a go a little after half-way. It was going well and at around 6 to
> go, a likely-looking pair of Marconis took off and I jumped on the back
> and we pushed hard for a couple of laps, even getting a bit of a gap.
> Not enough though - there was still plenty of firepower left in the
> bunch and we were reeled back in.
>
> From the moment we were back together, I knew it was all over for me as
> I spent a lot in trying to get away and I really don't have a fast
> sprint. Sure enough, I went nowhere in the sprint and finished
> mid-field.
>
> What did I learn? The strategy wasn't a bad one, but execution could
> have been a little better - picking the right group to go in a break is
> the key. On reflection, there were a couple of riders that were a little
> stronger that I might have followed instead. A different strategy would
> have been to gamble on a bunch sprint and even though I don't have a
> strong sprint, if I had done absolutely no work at the front or
> chasing, I'd have half a chance - but this strategy just isn't
> satisfying for me - I want to have a go.
>
> Oh well - at least it was a tailwind for the 30k ride home.
>
> Ritch

Picking the right break is a matter of experience and luck. I'm with
you though, sticking around just to contest the bunch sprint is the
wimps way out. I haven't seen many early breaks succeed, but anything
after the 1/2 way mark often has a fair chance if you are with the right
guys. Pity I missed it yesterday...

Good luck next time.

--
BrettS

[flyingdutch]

BrettS Wrote:
>
> Picking the right break is a matter of experience and luck. I'm with
> you though, sticking around just to contest the bunch sprint is the
> wimps way out. I haven't seen many early breaks succeed, but anything
> after the 1/2 way mark often has a fair chance if you are with th
> right
> guys. Pity I missed it yesterday...
>
> Good luck next time.
>
> --
> BrettS

"My name is FD, and Im a Wimp

--
flyingdutch

[adam85]

BrettS Wrote:
> ritcho wrote:
>
> > Stick a fork in me, I'm done.
> >
> > A beautiful winter's day greeted the 24 riders in B-grade as Marconi
> > hosted the club combine at the Western Sydney International Dragway.
> > I've not raced at WSID before, the course included the mai
> dragstrip
> > for the finishing sprint and included a kind of L-shape as th
> course
> > went around the carpark as well for a lap of about 3km.
> >
> > B-grade set off for eighteen laps, including the first lap to be ru
> as
> > a neutral as the course had been amended. The pace didn't pick u
> very
> > much in the first couple of laps with no-one willing to push th
> pace.
> > Parramatta, Penrith and Marconi were more or less equall
> represented,
> > which seemed to cause some confusion over who should control th
> pace.
> > The away teams pushed Marconi into the job.
> >
> > A few laps passed and the attacks started - they didn't seem to b
> real
> > attacks - more like ones designed to try to create a split in th
> bunch.
> > All were unsuccessful as there were always plenty of people willin
> to
> > close the breaks down.... and so it went for most of the race. My
> > strategy, at least initially, was to gamble on no early breaks, bu
> to
> > have a go a little after half-way. It was going well and at around
> to
> > go, a likely-looking pair of Marconis took off and I jumped on th
> back
> > and we pushed hard for a couple of laps, even getting a bit of
> gap.
> > Not enough though - there was still plenty of firepower left in the
> > bunch and we were reeled back in.
> >
> > From the moment we were back together, I knew it was all over for m
> as
> > I spent a lot in trying to get away and I really don't have a fast
> > sprint. Sure enough, I went nowhere in the sprint and finished
> > mid-field.
> >
> > What did I learn? The strategy wasn't a bad one, but execution could
> > have been a little better - picking the right group to go in a brea
> is
> > the key. On reflection, there were a couple of riders that were
> little
> > stronger that I might have followed instead. A different strateg
> would
> > have been to gamble on a bunch sprint and even though I don't have a
> > strong sprint, if I had done absolutely no work at the front or
> > chasing, I'd have half a chance - but this strategy just isn't
> > satisfying for me - I want to have a go.
> >
> > Oh well - at least it was a tailwind for the 30k ride home.
> >
> > Ritch
>
> Picking the right break is a matter of experience and luck. I'm with
> you though, sticking around just to contest the bunch sprint is the
> wimps way out. I haven't seen many early breaks succeed, but anything
> after the 1/2 way mark often has a fair chance if you are with th
> right
> guys. Pity I missed it yesterday...
>
> Good luck next time.
>
> --
> BrettS

I agree, it's better to have a go and get the occasionally result tha
sit in and wait for the bunch sprint which can be boring. I'm still
beginner, but most successful breaks I've seen are with about a thir
of the race to go. Earlier than that there are a lot of fresh rider
that can chase, later than that and the sprinters will chase dow
everything that moves. I haven't been strong enough to do it much bu
I've found if you want to bridge it's better to let a break get
decent but barely bridgable gap, then when you go give it everythin
and try and fly past the front of the pack and make them hesitate t
chase. If you ride off the front everyone just jumps on.

I thought I was in the winning break of 7 stronger riders on saturday
but it was only 10min to go and it was chased down. The winner did
solo break with 1 1/2 (short) laps to go, which I thought was doomed t
fail but everyone waited for everyone else to chase to save thei
energy. He ended up winning. With 400m to go I went 100% as otherwis
we were just giving the win away. With the earlier breakaway effort
couldn't shake the chasers and got mowed down but at least I had a g
as I'm no sprinter


--
adam85

[BrettS]

flyingdutch wrote:

> BrettS Wrote:
>
>>Picking the right break is a matter of experience and luck. I'm with
>>you though, sticking around just to contest the bunch sprint is the
>>wimps way out. I haven't seen many early breaks succeed, but anything
>>after the 1/2 way mark often has a fair chance if you are with the
>>right
>>guys. Pity I missed it yesterday...
>>
>>Good luck next time.
>>
>>--
>>BrettS
>
>
> "My name is FD, and Im a Wimp"
>
>
Really, I just get too bored to be a wimp...

--
Brett"goin' for glory"S

[BrettS]

adam85 wrote:

> BrettS Wrote:
>
>>ritcho wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Stick a fork in me, I'm done.
>>>
>>>A beautiful winter's day greeted the 24 riders in B-grade as Marconi
>>>hosted the club combine at the Western Sydney International Dragway.
>>>I've not raced at WSID before, the course included the main
>>
>>dragstrip
>>
>>>for the finishing sprint and included a kind of L-shape as the
>>
>>course
>>
>>>went around the carpark as well for a lap of about 3km.
>>>
>>>B-grade set off for eighteen laps, including the first lap to be run
>>
>>as
>>
>>>a neutral as the course had been amended. The pace didn't pick up
>>
>>very
>>
>>>much in the first couple of laps with no-one willing to push the
>>
>>pace.
>>
>>>Parramatta, Penrith and Marconi were more or less equally
>>
>>represented,
>>
>>>which seemed to cause some confusion over who should control the
>>
>>pace.
>>
>>>The away teams pushed Marconi into the job.
>>>
>>>A few laps passed and the attacks started - they didn't seem to be
>>
>>real
>>
>>>attacks - more like ones designed to try to create a split in the
>>
>>bunch.
>>
>>>All were unsuccessful as there were always plenty of people willing
>>
>>to
>>
>>>close the breaks down.... and so it went for most of the race. My
>>>strategy, at least initially, was to gamble on no early breaks, but
>>
>>to
>>
>>>have a go a little after half-way. It was going well and at around 6
>>
>>to
>>
>>>go, a likely-looking pair of Marconis took off and I jumped on the
>>
>>back
>>
>>>and we pushed hard for a couple of laps, even getting a bit of a
>>
>>gap.
>>
>>>Not enough though - there was still plenty of firepower left in the
>>>bunch and we were reeled back in.
>>>
>>>From the moment we were back together, I knew it was all over for me
>>
>>as
>>
>>>I spent a lot in trying to get away and I really don't have a fast
>>>sprint. Sure enough, I went nowhere in the sprint and finished
>>>mid-field.
>>>
>>>What did I learn? The strategy wasn't a bad one, but execution could
>>>have been a little better - picking the right group to go in a break
>>
>>is
>>
>>>the key. On reflection, there were a couple of riders that were a
>>
>>little
>>
>>>stronger that I might have followed instead. A different strategy
>>
>>would
>>
>>>have been to gamble on a bunch sprint and even though I don't have a
>>>strong sprint, if I had done absolutely no work at the front or
>>>chasing, I'd have half a chance - but this strategy just isn't
>>>satisfying for me - I want to have a go.
>>>
>>>Oh well - at least it was a tailwind for the 30k ride home.
>>>
>>>Ritch
>>
>>Picking the right break is a matter of experience and luck. I'm with
>>you though, sticking around just to contest the bunch sprint is the
>>wimps way out. I haven't seen many early breaks succeed, but anything
>>after the 1/2 way mark often has a fair chance if you are with the
>>right
>>guys. Pity I missed it yesterday...
>>
>>Good luck next time.
>>
>>--
>>BrettS
>
>
> I agree, it's better to have a go and get the occasionally result than
> sit in and wait for the bunch sprint which can be boring. I'm still a
> beginner, but most successful breaks I've seen are with about a third
> of the race to go. Earlier than that there are a lot of fresh riders
> that can chase, later than that and the sprinters will chase down
> everything that moves. I haven't been strong enough to do it much but
> I've found if you want to bridge it's better to let a break get a
> decent but barely bridgable gap, then when you go give it everything
> and try and fly past the front of the pack and make them hesitate to
> chase. If you ride off the front everyone just jumps on.

Exactly, although it took me a few races to figure that out...

> I thought I was in the winning break of 7 stronger riders on saturday,
> but it was only 10min to go and it was chased down. The winner did a
> solo break with 1 1/2 (short) laps to go, which I thought was doomed to
> fail but everyone waited for everyone else to chase to save their
> energy. He ended up winning. With 400m to go I went 100% as otherwise
> we were just giving the win away. With the earlier breakaway effort I
> couldn't shake the chasers and got mowed down but at least I had a go
> as I'm no sprinter.

I'll bet the winner sat back in the chasing bunch and shot off when
everyone else was shagged. A smart man with lucky timing.

--
Brett"no sprinter either"S

[ritcho]

BrettS Wrote:
> flyingdutch wrote:
>
> > BrettS Wrote:
> >
> >>Picking the right break is a matter of experience and luck. I'
> with
> >>you though, sticking around just to contest the bunch sprint is the
> >>wimps way out. I haven't seen many early breaks succeed, bu
> anything
> >>after the 1/2 way mark often has a fair chance if you are with the
> >>right
> >>guys. Pity I missed it yesterday...
> >>
> >>Good luck next time.
> >>
> >>--
> >>BrettS
> >
> >
> > "My name is FD, and Im a Wimp"
> >
> >
> Really, I just get too bored to be a wimp...
>
> --
> Brett"goin' for glory"S

Bored? Waiting for a bunch sprint is synonymous with futility for me!

Ritc

--
ritcho

[flyingdutch]

BrettS Wrote:
>
>
> Really, I just get too bored to be a wimp...
>
> --
> Brett"goin' for glory"S

hey, if you lack fitness
( i grew up being a baseballer, NOT an athlete! :rolleyes: )
and my only strength is a good kick over a short distance, I'll tak
the win anyway i can get it! I'd love to have the ability to sol
(maybe one day...) but till that day comes its afterburners engaged fo
moi

That tactic of going with 2-3 laps to go has worked a few times a
Glenvale (that i have witnessed anyhow

--
flyingdutch

[Carl Brewer]

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 08:08:40 +0800, BrettS
> wrote:


>Picking the right break is a matter of experience and luck. I'm with
>you though, sticking around just to contest the bunch sprint is the
>wimps way out.


********. Every race is a gamble, and if your talent is a
big surge of pace, smart bike positioning and rat cunning,
what makes that any less committed to the race than trying to escape a
sprint b getting into a smaller group and winning that sprint?
Winning (o even getting in position to contest
with any chance of winning) a bunch kick at the end of
a long road race is no soft option. If it's too easy,
you're in the wrong grade.

[Carl Brewer]

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 10:34:25 +1000, ritcho
> wrote:


>A few laps passed and the attacks started - they didn't seem to be real
>attacks - more like ones designed to try to create a split in the bunch.
>All were unsuccessful as there were always plenty of people willing to
>close the breaks down.... and so it went for most of the race. My
>strategy, at least initially, was to gamble on no early breaks, but to
>have a go a little after half-way. It was going well and at around 6 to
>go, a likely-looking pair of Marconis took off and I jumped on the back
>and we pushed hard for a couple of laps, even getting a bit of a gap.
>Not enough though - there was still plenty of firepower left in the
>bunch and we were reeled back in.

I don't know what sort of team riding happens in NSW races,
but a break without members of at least 2 or 3 significant teams
represented in it is unlikely to stay away, as the other teams
will then have a vested interest in chasing it down. you
mentioned 3 clubs present - and the break had members of one
in it. The other two will chase it, but maybe let it hang out in
the breeze for a while totire out the breakees first. Sounds
like that's what happened.

We're doing some team riding in our B grade races now (it's
technically against the rules, but everyone's doing it, so we
have to too, and it is a lot more interesting than a bunch of
individuals), and I know that no break on a flat course
will stay away in B grade if one of my lads isn't in it,
and one of the Burnley guys, and omara and Anaconda,
otherwise there's simply too many people prepared to blow
themselves up for their teammates/friends. I've
chased down breaks for my teammates on many occasions
in races where it made sense to do so. This is basic race tactics.
If the race is a lower grade crit then breaks have a better chance,
as the bunches are less well organised and the riders less likely
to understand the tactical side of things, or to have the ability
to do something about it. The only way to fight this sort of thing
is to start your own teams up. I think this is a good thing for the
sport. If you want to be in escapes, long (really long!)
road races and hilly courses, or crosswinds are your
friend, not flat crits in carparks - although hotdogs are notorious
for shelling riders off the back, but that's a positioning issue
more than anything else. He who is at the back on a hotdog, is
soon to be eating hotdogs and spectating.

The only real chance for a break to get away on a flat, non-technical
course is if all the teams there have a member in the break and the
rest of the team members from those teams are blocking. Unless
there's some sandbaggers in the race who should be up a grade
anyway .... This doesn't apply in A grade though, where you get
some riders who really are a cut above the rest and who are strong
enough to escape, but they're bound for europe, or are doping (anyone
saw Rob Wilson at Glenvale in 2003? Hrm ....
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/?id=AUS/2003/apr03/apr13carnegie

[BrettS]

Carl Brewer wrote:

> On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 08:08:40 +0800, BrettS
> > wrote:
>
>
>
>>Picking the right break is a matter of experience and luck. I'm with
>>you though, sticking around just to contest the bunch sprint is the
>>wimps way out.
>
>
>
> ********. Every race is a gamble, and if your talent is a
> big surge of pace, smart bike positioning and rat cunning,
> what makes that any less committed to the race than trying to escape a
> sprint b getting into a smaller group and winning that sprint?
> Winning (o even getting in position to contest
> with any chance of winning) a bunch kick at the end of
> a long road race is no soft option. If it's too easy,
> you're in the wrong grade.
>

Hanging on for the bunch sprint is definitely smarter if that's where
your strength lies. Breakaways may not always be the smartest option,
but IMO it takes more guts to leave the 'comfort' of the bunch to go it
alone or with a smaller group.

--
BrettS

[ritcho]

BrettS Wrote:
> Carl Brewer wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 08:08:40 +0800, BrettS
> > > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>Picking the right break is a matter of experience and luck. I'
> with
> >>you though, sticking around just to contest the bunch sprint is the
> >>wimps way out.
> >
> >
> >
> > ********. Every race is a gamble, and if your talent is a
> > big surge of pace, smart bike positioning and rat cunning,
> > what makes that any less committed to the race than trying to escap
> a
> > sprint b getting into a smaller group and winning that sprint?
> > Winning (o even getting in position to contest
> > with any chance of winning) a bunch kick at the end of
> > a long road race is no soft option. If it's too easy,
> > you're in the wrong grade.
> >
>
> Hanging on for the bunch sprint is definitely smarter if that's where
> your strength lies. Breakaways may not always be the smartest option,
> but IMO it takes more guts to leave the 'comfort' of the bunch to g
> it
> alone or with a smaller group.
>
> --
> BrettS

True enough, different strokes for different folks - I've had succes
in small groups rather than the big bunch sprint, so I'd rather try an
get into a decent break. CB was right about breaks _not_ getting away o
flat courses, which is why I like Oakville (Parra's home course): it ha
a long, though not too steep climb...

Ritc

--
ritcho

[flyingdutch]

Carl Brewer Wrote:
>
> The only real chance for a break to get away on a flat, non-technical
> course is if all the teams there have a member in the break and the
> rest of the team members from those teams are blocking. Unless
> there's some sandbaggers in the race who should be up a grade
> anyway .... This doesn't apply in A grade though, where you get
> some riders who really are a cut above the rest and who are strong
> enough to escape, but they're bound for europe, or are doping (anyone
> saw Rob Wilson at Glenvale in 2003? Hrm ....
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/?id=AUS/2003/apr03/apr13carnegie

oh look. that just happens to be the same week someone won in...
D_GRADE???

--
flyingdutch

[Carl Brewer]

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:24:42 +1000, flyingdutch
> wrote:

>
>Carl Brewer Wrote:
>>
>> The only real chance for a break to get away on a flat, non-technical
>> course is if all the teams there have a member in the break and the
>> rest of the team members from those teams are blocking. Unless
>> there's some sandbaggers in the race who should be up a grade
>> anyway .... This doesn't apply in A grade though, where you get
>> some riders who really are a cut above the rest and who are strong
>> enough to escape, but they're bound for europe, or are doping (anyone
>> saw Rob Wilson at Glenvale in 2003? Hrm ....
>> http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/?id=AUS/2003/apr03/apr13carnegie
>
>oh look. that just happens to be the same week someone won in...
>D_GRADE????

Ha! Gimme the CASH!!