Weird Back Pain ... One bike, not the other

[Andrew Morris]

Hi Folks,

I ride a Norco Java MTB, and a Giant TCR2 Roadie...

On the Java, running slicks, I can average around 36 km/h spinning at what I
guestimate to be a cadence of around 90 RPM... On the Giant, in a similar
gear ratio, I can average about 27 km/h, with a cadence of around 80 RPM,
but also get a lower back pain...

Now, I've measured both bikes, being seat to bottom bracket, seat to stem,
and front hub to handle bar. The only major measurement difference I can
find is that the bars on the road bike are about 10 cm lower than on the
mountain bike... Is this going to be the cause of my lower back pain? And
would the best way to work with this, to be to take both bikes into the bike
shop, and adjust the road bike to similar measurements as the MTB? I
believe if I turn the Giant headstem over, I should raise the handlebars
about 5 cm... Is this going to be enough??? Or is it a matter of suck it
and see?

Cheers,

Andrew

[Carl Fogel]

"Andrew Morris" > wrote in message >...
> Hi Folks,
>
> I ride a Norco Java MTB, and a Giant TCR2 Roadie...
>
> On the Java, running slicks, I can average around 36 km/h spinning at what I
> guestimate to be a cadence of around 90 RPM... On the Giant, in a similar
> gear ratio, I can average about 27 km/h, with a cadence of around 80 RPM,
> but also get a lower back pain...
>
> Now, I've measured both bikes, being seat to bottom bracket, seat to stem,
> and front hub to handle bar. The only major measurement difference I can
> find is that the bars on the road bike are about 10 cm lower than on the
> mountain bike... Is this going to be the cause of my lower back pain? And
> would the best way to work with this, to be to take both bikes into the bike
> shop, and adjust the road bike to similar measurements as the MTB? I
> believe if I turn the Giant headstem over, I should raise the handlebars
> about 5 cm... Is this going to be enough??? Or is it a matter of suck it
> and see?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andrew


Dear Andrew,

I'm puzzled.

Your average speed drops 25% when you switch from a mountain
bike to a road bike with a 10cm lower rider profile?

A loss of over 5 mph from 22 mph suggests that you have either
some serious equipment problems on the road bike or else that
your back pain is literally staggering.

Good luck,

Carl Fogel

[Gearóid Ó Laoi/Garry Lee]

Definitely your position.

A 10cm drop from saddle to bars is a lot, not to mind a 10 cm lower drop. If
your seat is highish for your leg length, which it may well be, it would be
astonishing if you didn't have back pain. The pain is telling you something.
Your position is bad. It may be that your saddle is too high and the lower
bars would worsen this effect. I used to get back-pain when my saddle was
too high. A backward tilted saddle can also cause this.
Seated square on saddle, your bare heel, foot parallel to ground, should be
about 5mm from fully down pedal surface.

[Matt O'Toole]

"Carl Fogel" > wrote in message
om...

> "Andrew Morris" > wrote in message
>...

> > Hi Folks,
> >
> > I ride a Norco Java MTB, and a Giant TCR2 Roadie...
> >
> > On the Java, running slicks, I can average around 36 km/h spinning at what I
> > guestimate to be a cadence of around 90 RPM... On the Giant, in a similar
> > gear ratio, I can average about 27 km/h, with a cadence of around 80 RPM,
> > but also get a lower back pain...
> >
> > Now, I've measured both bikes, being seat to bottom bracket, seat to stem,
> > and front hub to handle bar. The only major measurement difference I can
> > find is that the bars on the road bike are about 10 cm lower than on the
> > mountain bike... Is this going to be the cause of my lower back pain?

Probably.

> > And
> > would the best way to work with this, to be to take both bikes into the bike
> > shop, and adjust the road bike to similar measurements as the MTB?

Sure. You might not need to raise your bars quite that much, but raising them
some will probably help.

Most road bikes *are* too low in front for most people. They're designed to fit
riders' aesthetic sensibilities and egos rather than their bodies.

> > I
> > believe if I turn the Giant headstem over, I should raise the handlebars
> > about 5 cm... Is this going to be enough??? Or is it a matter of suck it
> > and see?

Just give it a try. Threadless stems flip over for big adjustments, and use
spacers for little ones. Take advantage of your stem's designed-in range of
adjustment.

> Your average speed drops 25% when you switch from a mountain
> bike to a road bike with a 10cm lower rider profile?
>
> A loss of over 5 mph from 22 mph suggests that you have either
> some serious equipment problems on the road bike or else that
> your back pain is literally staggering.

Speaking from experience, 10cm difference can indeed make that much
difference -- because someone with back problems can be much weaker in a
position that's only slightly lower.

I had a revelation a few years back. Feeling tired at the end of a long MTB
ride, I was struggling up a not-so-steep hill. I could barely keep the pedals
turning over in my usual gear. My lower back was tired and starting to hurt.
So I sat up to rest, and riding no-hands, I shot up the hill with tremendous
ease. When I got home, I ordered a new stem, to raise my handlebars. A mere
inch made all the difference.

So, raise your bars and ride some. If it doesn't help, go see a sports
therapist/chiropractor/coach who specializes in bike fit.

Matt O.

[David Kerber]

In article >,
says...
> "Andrew Morris" > wrote in message >...
> > Hi Folks,
> >
> > I ride a Norco Java MTB, and a Giant TCR2 Roadie...
> >
> > On the Java, running slicks, I can average around 36 km/h spinning at what I
> > guestimate to be a cadence of around 90 RPM... On the Giant, in a similar
> > gear ratio, I can average about 27 km/h, with a cadence of around 80 RPM,
> > but also get a lower back pain...
> >
> > Now, I've measured both bikes, being seat to bottom bracket, seat to stem,
> > and front hub to handle bar. The only major measurement difference I can
> > find is that the bars on the road bike are about 10 cm lower than on the
> > mountain bike... Is this going to be the cause of my lower back pain? And
> > would the best way to work with this, to be to take both bikes into the bike
> > shop, and adjust the road bike to similar measurements as the MTB? I
> > believe if I turn the Giant headstem over, I should raise the handlebars
> > about 5 cm... Is this going to be enough??? Or is it a matter of suck it
> > and see?
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Andrew
>
>
> Dear Andrew,
>
> I'm puzzled.
>
> Your average speed drops 25% when you switch from a mountain
> bike to a road bike with a 10cm lower rider profile?
>
> A loss of over 5 mph from 22 mph suggests that you have either
> some serious equipment problems on the road bike or else that
> your back pain is literally staggering.

Maybe the computer on the road bike isn't calibrated properly (maybe
still set for the 26" wheels on the MTB?)

--
Dave Kerber
Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

[Bruni]

Bar ht. is definitely a factor, but don't forget the greater bump generated
forces on the road bike. It's all a holistic mix when it comes to comfort.
Tom

--
Bruni Bicycles
"Where art meets science"
brunibicycles.com
410.426.3420
Andrew Morris > wrote in message
u...
> Hi Folks,
>
> I ride a Norco Java MTB, and a Giant TCR2 Roadie...
>
> On the Java, running slicks, I can average around 36 km/h spinning at what
I
> guestimate to be a cadence of around 90 RPM... On the Giant, in a similar
> gear ratio, I can average about 27 km/h, with a cadence of around 80 RPM,
> but also get a lower back pain...
>
> Now, I've measured both bikes, being seat to bottom bracket, seat to stem,
> and front hub to handle bar. The only major measurement difference I can
> find is that the bars on the road bike are about 10 cm lower than on the
> mountain bike... Is this going to be the cause of my lower back pain? And
> would the best way to work with this, to be to take both bikes into the
bike
> shop, and adjust the road bike to similar measurements as the MTB? I
> believe if I turn the Giant headstem over, I should raise the handlebars
> about 5 cm... Is this going to be enough??? Or is it a matter of suck it
> and see?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>

[David L. Johnson]

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:31:23 +1100, Andrew Morris wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
> I ride a Norco Java MTB, and a Giant TCR2 Roadie...
>
> On the Java, running slicks, I can average around 36 km/h spinning at what
> I guestimate to be a cadence of around 90 RPM... On the Giant, in a
> similar gear ratio, I can average about 27 km/h, with a cadence of around
> 80 RPM, but also get a lower back pain...

Well, I don't know what else is going on, but the gearing is one thing.
You'r talking about a 25% reduction in speed, for a 11% reduction in
cadence. Either your gears aren't so similar, or your estimates of
something are off.
>
> Now, I've measured both bikes, being seat to bottom bracket, seat to stem,
> and front hub to handle bar. The only major measurement difference I can
> find is that the bars on the road bike are about 10 cm lower than on the
> mountain bike... Is this going to be the cause of my lower back pain?

I would think so. 10 com lower to the tops of the bars, or to the drops?
If to the tops, your road bike bars would seem to be really, really low
(or the mountain bike bars are high). My mountain bike bars are about the
same position as the tops of my road bars.

While you are checking measurements, check your knee position when the
pedals are horizontal. Look for the ol' KOPS (knee over pedal spindle)
with a plumb bob. I would guess there is a big difference between the two
bikes in this.


--

David L. Johnson

__o | The lottery is a tax on those who fail to understand
_`\(,_ | mathematics.
(_)/ (_) |

[Andrew Morris]

"David Kerber" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
> > "Andrew Morris" > wrote in message
>...
> > > Hi Folks,
> > >
> > > I ride a Norco Java MTB, and a Giant TCR2 Roadie...
> > >
> > > On the Java, running slicks, I can average around 36 km/h spinning at
what I
> > > guestimate to be a cadence of around 90 RPM... On the Giant, in a
similar
> > > gear ratio, I can average about 27 km/h, with a cadence of around 80
RPM,
> > > but also get a lower back pain...
> > >
> > > Now, I've measured both bikes, being seat to bottom bracket, seat to
stem,
> > > and front hub to handle bar. The only major measurement difference I
can
> > > find is that the bars on the road bike are about 10 cm lower than on
the
> > > mountain bike... Is this going to be the cause of my lower back pain?
And
> > > would the best way to work with this, to be to take both bikes into
the bike
> > > shop, and adjust the road bike to similar measurements as the MTB? I
> > > believe if I turn the Giant headstem over, I should raise the
handlebars
> > > about 5 cm... Is this going to be enough??? Or is it a matter of suck
it
> > > and see?
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Andrew
> >
> >
> > Dear Andrew,
> >
> > I'm puzzled.
> >
> > Your average speed drops 25% when you switch from a mountain
> > bike to a road bike with a 10cm lower rider profile?
> >
> > A loss of over 5 mph from 22 mph suggests that you have either
> > some serious equipment problems on the road bike or else that
> > your back pain is literally staggering.
>
> Maybe the computer on the road bike isn't calibrated properly (maybe
> still set for the 26" wheels on the MTB?)


separate computers... I've just had a look at where my heel is relative to
the pedal when fully extended, (try doing it with no-one to hold the bike
steady ;-) ) and my leg extension appears ok... I also don't think it's the
seat angle... Will find an Allen key, and flip the stem, and see how i go...
if that doesn't work, will tilt the seat forward a bit

[Carl Fogel]

David Kerber > wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> says...
> > "Andrew Morris" > wrote in message >...
> > > Hi Folks,
> > >
> > > I ride a Norco Java MTB, and a Giant TCR2 Roadie...
> > >
> > > On the Java, running slicks, I can average around 36 km/h spinning at what I
> > > guestimate to be a cadence of around 90 RPM... On the Giant, in a similar
> > > gear ratio, I can average about 27 km/h, with a cadence of around 80 RPM,
> > > but also get a lower back pain...
> > >
> > > Now, I've measured both bikes, being seat to bottom bracket, seat to stem,
> > > and front hub to handle bar. The only major measurement difference I can
> > > find is that the bars on the road bike are about 10 cm lower than on the
> > > mountain bike... Is this going to be the cause of my lower back pain? And
> > > would the best way to work with this, to be to take both bikes into the bike
> > > shop, and adjust the road bike to similar measurements as the MTB? I
> > > believe if I turn the Giant headstem over, I should raise the handlebars
> > > about 5 cm... Is this going to be enough??? Or is it a matter of suck it
> > > and see?
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Andrew
> >
> >
> > Dear Andrew,
> >
> > I'm puzzled.
> >
> > Your average speed drops 25% when you switch from a mountain
> > bike to a road bike with a 10cm lower rider profile?
> >
> > A loss of over 5 mph from 22 mph suggests that you have either
> > some serious equipment problems on the road bike or else that
> > your back pain is literally staggering.
>
> Maybe the computer on the road bike isn't calibrated properly (maybe
> still set for the 26" wheels on the MTB?)

Dear Dave,

I hadn't thought of the possibility of the
same speedometer being swapped without
re-calibration between a road and mountain
bike, but the differences turn out to be
far less that 25%. My speedometer's table
of expected circumferences shows:

For 700x25 to 700x32, 2124mm to 2153mm.
For 26x1.4 to 26x1.75, 1995mm to 2045mm.

While crucial to those of us obsessed with
numbers, this would provide only about a 4-6%
reduction in the road bike speed, not the
25% reduction from 36 km/h to 27 km/h mentioned
in the original post.

A more plausible explanation is that the
mountain bike's "36" might have been
kilometers per hour, but the road bike's
"27" was actually in miles per hour. A
36 kph reading on the mountain bike would
be about 22 mph, versus a 27 mph reading
for the road bike, satisfying my vague notion
that road bikes should go faster than mountain
bikes.

Or the poor guy's back may just hurt so badly
on the road bike that it drops his speed 25%.
After all, it's bad enough that he's posting
about it.

Using 2109mm,

Carl Fogel

[Rick Onanian]

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:31:23 +1100, "Andrew Morris"
> wrote:
>Hi Folks,
>I ride a Norco Java MTB, and a Giant TCR2 Roadie...

Don't know the Norco. I have a TCR2.

>On the Java, running slicks, I can average around 36 km/h spinning at what I
>guestimate to be a cadence of around 90 RPM... On the Giant, in a similar

That's probably something like a 48 x 14 gear? That would be 88.3
gear inches, regardless.

>gear ratio, I can average about 27 km/h, with a cadence of around 80 RPM,
>but also get a lower back pain...

That would be a 39 x 15 or 52x19. That's 68.3 to 71.9 gear inches.

You're running a significantly taller gear (that's even with the
tire size factored in) on the MTB. You would have to shift into 52
x 15 to get a similar gear inch.

>Now, I've measured both bikes, being seat to bottom bracket, seat to stem,
>and front hub to handle bar. The only major measurement difference I can
>find is that the bars on the road bike are about 10 cm lower than on the
>mountain bike... Is this going to be the cause of my lower back pain? And

Probably. The TCR2 has a very aggressive geometry, especially for
somebody who's not Fabrizio.

>would the best way to work with this, to be to take both bikes into the bike
>shop, and adjust the road bike to similar measurements as the MTB? I
>believe if I turn the Giant headstem over, I should raise the handlebars
>about 5 cm... Is this going to be enough??? Or is it a matter of suck it
>and see?

Is the TCR2 your first road bike? Road bike fitting is different
from MTB fitting. However, I've gone to a 130mm 45 degree rise stem
on my TCR2. It helped tremendously; I could ride longer, farther,
and faster.

When the winter ends and I want to ride again, I'll probably be able
to go for a good ride on the first try; before I put that stem on,
at the end of the winter, having not ridden for months, I couldn't
even fold myself into the position to ride it for more than a few
minutes.

Regarding others' posts:

Carl Fogel is puzzled at your speed loss. I agree.

David Kerber suggested that if you use one computer on both bikes,
it's miscalibrated for one. You replied that you don't; however,
one or both computers could be miscalibrated, regardless. Check
that out.

Tom suggests minding the ride quality. While I've found that my
TCR2 is very comfortable riding with the tires at 125psi, you may
not; in fact, if you are lighter than me (210 pounds), you might
want to lower your pressure to 100, 90, or even 80 (at least for a
test run).

>Cheers,
>
>Andrew
--
Rick Onanian

[David L. Johnson]

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:16:29 +1100, Andrew Morris wrote:

> separate computers... I've just had a look at where my heel is relative
> to the pedal when fully extended, (try doing it with no-one to hold the
> bike steady ;-) ) and my leg extension appears ok...

But you do need to check how far back you are sitting on each bike,
relative to the pedals. Mountain bikes tend to have slacker angles than
road bikes, so maybe you are too far forward on the road bike.

> Will find an Allen key, and flip the stem, and see
> how i go... if that doesn't work, will tilt the seat forward a bit

Not the best idea. Tilting the seat forward places more stress on your
arms (holding you from slipping forward). This could make things worse.
Try to get someone to help you get properly fit.

No way should you be slower on a road bike than on a mountain bike.
Something is really wrong. You also should not be in pain. This is,
after all, supposed to be fun.


--

David L. Johnson

__o | A mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems.
_`\(,_ | -- Paul Erdos
(_)/ (_) |

[Jeff Starr]

"Andrew Morris" > wrote in message >...


> separate computers... I've just had a look at where my heel is relative to
> the pedal when fully extended, (try doing it with no-one to hold the bike
> steady ;-) ) and my leg extension appears ok... I also don't think it's the
> seat angle... Will find an Allen key, and flip the stem, and see how i go...
> if that doesn't work, will tilt the seat forward a bit

Hi, I wouldn't tilt the seat forward, you'll end up putting lots of
weight on your hands and wrists. You would be best served by having
your saddle, pretty much level. If flipping your stem over isn't
enough, you may have to buy a different one. Or as suggested, consult
a fit specialist. Here is a chart that might help you:
http://www.habcycles.com/fitting.html
Jeff

[Andrew Morris]

Hi Rick,


"Rick Onanian" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:31:23 +1100, "Andrew Morris"
> > wrote:
> >Hi Folks,
> >I ride a Norco Java MTB, and a Giant TCR2 Roadie...
>
> Don't know the Norco. I have a TCR2.

The Norco is a 1998 MTB, stopped production mid-1999....

> >On the Java, running slicks, I can average around 36 km/h spinning at
what I
> >guestimate to be a cadence of around 90 RPM... On the Giant, in a
similar
>
> That's probably something like a 48 x 14 gear? That would be 88.3
> gear inches, regardless.
>
> >gear ratio, I can average about 27 km/h, with a cadence of around 80 RPM,
> >but also get a lower back pain...
>
> That would be a 39 x 15 or 52x19. That's 68.3 to 71.9 gear inches.
>
> You're running a significantly taller gear (that's even with the
> tire size factored in) on the MTB. You would have to shift into 52
> x 15 to get a similar gear inch.

Yeah, that was around whsat I was in to be figuring on the same ratios...
Interestingly, I can also spin up to a max speed on flats of about 50 km/h
on the MTB, but on the TCR2, i can reach 50 km/h fairly easily, but have
trouble staying there... Again, with similar gear ratios...

> >Now, I've measured both bikes, being seat to bottom bracket, seat to
stem,
> >and front hub to handle bar. The only major measurement difference I can
> >find is that the bars on the road bike are about 10 cm lower than on the
> >mountain bike... Is this going to be the cause of my lower back pain?
And
>
> Probably. The TCR2 has a very aggressive geometry, especially for
> somebody who's not Fabrizio.
>
> >would the best way to work with this, to be to take both bikes into the
bike
> >shop, and adjust the road bike to similar measurements as the MTB? I
> >believe if I turn the Giant headstem over, I should raise the handlebars
> >about 5 cm... Is this going to be enough??? Or is it a matter of suck it
> >and see?
>
> Is the TCR2 your first road bike? Road bike fitting is different
> from MTB fitting. However, I've gone to a 130mm 45 degree rise stem
> on my TCR2. It helped tremendously; I could ride longer, farther,
> and faster.

No, i had an Avanti Corsa, 1999 model, which i had similar back issues on,
however that was due to the "pro fit" i had done fitting me to a frame size
that was one size too big... I have been ok on the TCR2 for about 1000 km,
but the issues are starting to hit me now, especially as we're moving into
summer here, and things are warming up...

> When the winter ends and I want to ride again, I'll probably be able
> to go for a good ride on the first try; before I put that stem on,
> at the end of the winter, having not ridden for months, I couldn't
> even fold myself into the position to ride it for more than a few
> minutes.
>
> Regarding others' posts:
>
> Carl Fogel is puzzled at your speed loss. I agree.
>
> David Kerber suggested that if you use one computer on both bikes,
> it's miscalibrated for one. You replied that you don't; however,
> one or both computers could be miscalibrated, regardless. Check
> that out.


Checked this one out, and both computers are set correctly... I'm confused
too...

> Tom suggests minding the ride quality. While I've found that my
> TCR2 is very comfortable riding with the tires at 125psi, you may
> not; in fact, if you are lighter than me (210 pounds), you might
> want to lower your pressure to 100, 90, or even 80 (at least for a
> test run).

I run the TCR2 pressures at about 115 psi, and weigh around 75 kg (165-170
lbs) and find the bike a lot more comfortable than when I was running around
90 psi...

I'm just about to head off to the bike shop, to flip the stem (can't find
any allen keys) and see how we go from there...

Will come back to the group once I've been for a ride...

Cheers,

Andrew

[Rik O'Shea]

"Andrew Morris" > wrote in message >...
> Hi Folks,
>
> I ride a Norco Java MTB, and a Giant TCR2 Roadie...
>
> On the Java, running slicks, I can average around 36 km/h spinning at what I
> guestimate to be a cadence of around 90 RPM... On the Giant, in a similar
> gear ratio, I can average about 27 km/h, with a cadence of around 80 RPM,
> but also get a lower back pain...
>
> Now, I've measured both bikes, being seat to bottom bracket, seat to stem,
> and front hub to handle bar. The only major measurement difference I can
> find is that the bars on the road bike are about 10 cm lower than on the
> mountain bike... Is this going to be the cause of my lower back pain? And
> would the best way to work with this, to be to take both bikes into the bike
> shop, and adjust the road bike to similar measurements as the MTB? I
> believe if I turn the Giant headstem over, I should raise the handlebars
> about 5 cm... Is this going to be enough??? Or is it a matter of suck it
> and see?
>

The lower bars are the most likely cause. Another is the distance the
tip of the saddle is behind the bottom bracket spindle - you should
check to see if there is a major difference here (5 mm can make a
difference for some people). You need a plumline to carry this out
correctly.

One other thing that you should check that is often overlooked is the
type of saddle and the saddle tilt. In your case you should ideally
have the same saddle on both bikes. Since you suffer from back pain
you should tilt the nose of the saddle down ever so slightly (use a
spirit level on top on the saddle; dont check visually). A recent
Israeli study into the effects of back pain on cyclists indicated that
this was the most significant factor (rather than MTB v road
position). A slight tilt is the saddle help rotate the hips forward
and relieves strain in this area which contributes to back pain.

[Rick Onanian]

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:39:19 -0500, "David L. Johnson"
> wrote:
>On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:16:29 +1100, Andrew Morris wrote:
>But you do need to check how far back you are sitting on each bike,
>relative to the pedals. Mountain bikes tend to have slacker angles than
>road bikes, so maybe you are too far forward on the road bike.

The TCR2 does have quite a forward seat tube angle.

>Try to get someone to help you get properly fit.

I concur. At the very least, search for websites about fit and
calculators. If necessary, I can compile a list of my bookmarks
about fit, gathered when I was trying to find my correct fit on my
TCR2.

>No way should you be slower on a road bike than on a mountain bike.
>Something is really wrong. You also should not be in pain. This is,
>after all, supposed to be fun.

Or at the very least, if you're willing to put up with a little
pain, do it because you're going a lot faster -- don't go slower AND
hurt...unless you really dig that sort of thing.
--
Rick Onanian

[Andrew Morris]

Hi Rik,

>
> The lower bars are the most likely cause. Another is the distance the
> tip of the saddle is behind the bottom bracket spindle - you should
> check to see if there is a major difference here (5 mm can make a
> difference for some people). You need a plumline to carry this out
> correctly.

I've had the stem flipped, which has raised it abotu 5 cm... We also moved
the saddle back about 5 mm, as the guy who helped me out felt that it was a
little too forward for me...

> One other thing that you should check that is often overlooked is the
> type of saddle and the saddle tilt. In your case you should ideally
> have the same saddle on both bikes. Since you suffer from back pain
> you should tilt the nose of the saddle down ever so slightly (use a
> spirit level on top on the saddle; dont check visually). A recent
> Israeli study into the effects of back pain on cyclists indicated that
> this was the most significant factor (rather than MTB v road
> position). A slight tilt is the saddle help rotate the hips forward
> and relieves strain in this area which contributes to back pain.

We discussed saddle tilt, but I didn't want to change too many things at the
same time, in case we make things worse...

next week, if today's adjustments do not help, is to change the saddle tilt
a little....

Now all I need to do is to smack down some km's tomororw, and see if
anything has changed!!!

[Andrew Morris]

Rick, if you could post the bookmarks you used when fitting up your TCR2
that'd be great... so I can compare how mine actually fits....

"Rick Onanian" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:39:19 -0500, "David L. Johnson"
> > wrote:
> >On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:16:29 +1100, Andrew Morris wrote:
> >But you do need to check how far back you are sitting on each bike,
> >relative to the pedals. Mountain bikes tend to have slacker angles than
> >road bikes, so maybe you are too far forward on the road bike.
>
> The TCR2 does have quite a forward seat tube angle.
>
> >Try to get someone to help you get properly fit.
>
> I concur. At the very least, search for websites about fit and
> calculators. If necessary, I can compile a list of my bookmarks
> about fit, gathered when I was trying to find my correct fit on my
> TCR2.
>
> >No way should you be slower on a road bike than on a mountain bike.
> >Something is really wrong. You also should not be in pain. This is,
> >after all, supposed to be fun.
>
> Or at the very least, if you're willing to put up with a little
> pain, do it because you're going a lot faster -- don't go slower AND
> hurt...unless you really dig that sort of thing.
> --
> Rick Onanian

[David Kerber]

In article >,
says...
> Hi Rik,
>
> >
> > The lower bars are the most likely cause. Another is the distance the
> > tip of the saddle is behind the bottom bracket spindle - you should
> > check to see if there is a major difference here (5 mm can make a
> > difference for some people). You need a plumline to carry this out
> > correctly.
>
> I've had the stem flipped, which has raised it abotu 5 cm... We also moved
> the saddle back about 5 mm, as the guy who helped me out felt that it was a
> little too forward for me...
>
> > One other thing that you should check that is often overlooked is the
> > type of saddle and the saddle tilt. In your case you should ideally
> > have the same saddle on both bikes. Since you suffer from back pain
> > you should tilt the nose of the saddle down ever so slightly (use a
> > spirit level on top on the saddle; dont check visually). A recent
> > Israeli study into the effects of back pain on cyclists indicated that
> > this was the most significant factor (rather than MTB v road
> > position). A slight tilt is the saddle help rotate the hips forward
> > and relieves strain in this area which contributes to back pain.
>
> We discussed saddle tilt, but I didn't want to change too many things at the
> same time, in case we make things worse...
>
> next week, if today's adjustments do not help, is to change the saddle tilt
> a little....

Make sure it's a *little*. I've found that saddle tilt is the most
sensitive adjustment on a bike. For me, there is a *very* small range
where it's ok. I can move the saddle and handlebars up and down, or
forward and back a cm or two without a major change in comfort (at
least for rides up to 1 hour), but even *very small* changes (1/2 turn
on the micro adjust) in the saddle tilt can change it from "feels
great" to "unbearable for rides longer than ten minutes". For me, the
best is just slightly forward of perfectly flat. Mine has a slight U-
shape, and I need to set it so that the _front_ section is perfectly
horizontal, which makes the rear just slightly higher.

--
Dave Kerber
Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

[Rick Onanian]

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:58:56 +1100, "Andrew Morris"
> wrote:
>Hi Rick,
>"Rick Onanian" > wrote in message
>> >On the Java, running slicks, I can average around 36 km/h spinning at
>> >guestimate to be a cadence of around 90 RPM... On the Giant, in a
>similar
>>
>> That's probably something like a 48 x 14 gear? That would be 88.3
>> gear inches, regardless.
>>
>> >gear ratio, I can average about 27 km/h, with a cadence of around 80 RPM,
>> >but also get a lower back pain...
>>
>> That would be a 39 x 15 or 52x19. That's 68.3 to 71.9 gear inches.
>>
>> You're running a significantly taller gear (that's even with the
>> tire size factored in) on the MTB. You would have to shift into 52
>> x 15 to get a similar gear inch.
>
>Yeah, that was around whsat I was in to be figuring on the same ratios...

If so, then one of your computers is wrong. Your 27 kph @ 80 rpm
doesn't work for the 52x15. 80 rpm gives you 35 kph in 52x15. Are
you measuring cadence with the computer or some other way?

>Interestingly, I can also spin up to a max speed on flats of about 50 km/h
>on the MTB, but on the TCR2, i can reach 50 km/h fairly easily, but have
>trouble staying there... Again, with similar gear ratios...

Yeah, sounds like fit to me.

>> Is the TCR2 your first road bike? Road bike fitting is different
>
>No, i had an Avanti Corsa, 1999 model, which i had similar back issues on,

Oh..well, I was hoping you had another road bike with good fit that
you could measure against. So much for that idea. :)

>however that was due to the "pro fit" i had done fitting me to a frame size
>that was one size too big... I have been ok on the TCR2 for about 1000 km,

Bummer. When one pays to be fit, one expects to be properly fit.

>but the issues are starting to hit me now, especially as we're moving into
>summer here, and things are warming up...

Can I come and stay with you for 6 months or so? ;)

>> When the winter ends and I want to ride again, I'll probably be able

>I'm just about to head off to the bike shop, to flip the stem (can't find
>any allen keys) and see how we go from there...
>
>Will come back to the group once I've been for a ride...

We'll be waiting...

>Cheers,
>
>Andrew
--
Rick Onanian

[Jeff Starr]

"Andrew Morris" > wrote in message >...

>
> I'm just about to head off to the bike shop, to flip the stem (can't find
> any allen keys) and see how we go from there...
>
> Will come back to the group once I've been for a ride...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andrew

Hi Andrew, I would suggest that after you get this sorted out, it
might be time to purchase a good multi-tool, for each bike. Something
that you can and should carry with your tire repair gear. I like the
Crank Micra 17, it is small, lightweight and seems well made. I find
it very handy for on the road adjustments and I often use it at home
too. To see the Micra 17, click on link:
http://www.nashbar.com/profile_moreimages.cfm?category=&subcategory=&sku=5971&brand=0350
Jeff

[Rick Onanian]

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 00:24:50 +1100, "Andrew Morris"
> wrote:
>Rick, if you could post the bookmarks you used when fitting up your TCR2
>that'd be great... so I can compare how mine actually fits....

Here's the whole collection, much of which may not apply, in no
particular order:
http://www.wobblenaught.com/fit/bikesetup.php
http://www.analyticcycling.com/
http://www.jimlangley.net/crank/bicycleseats.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/pain.html
http://www.habcycles.com/fitting.html
http://www.geocities.com/czcorner/tech15.html
http://www.emedicine.com/sports/topic12.htm
http://www.bsn.com/Cycling/ergobike.html
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-sizing.html
http://www.sbraweb.org/setup.htm
http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/html/rr_comfposition.html
http://www.wrenchscience.com/WS1/default.asp

Disclaimers: I probably haven't even read all of those. I just
bookmark 'em for later review if I need them.

The last one has a calculator that purports to tell you just what
measurements you need to fit well.

Searching on the terms
onanian links fit
at groups.google.com brought up a couple of those addresses, too.
--
Rick Onanian

[Rocketman]

"Andrew Morris" > wrote in message
u...
> Hi Folks,
>
> I ride a Norco Java MTB, and a Giant TCR2 Roadie...
>
> On the [mountain bike], running slicks, I can average around 36 km/h
> On the [road bike]...I can average about 27 km/h,
> but [I am experiencing] lower back pain [on the road bike]

I suggest the following adjustments, in this order:

- Lower saddle height several centimeters
- Set the saddle top to be as near level as you can (use a ruler or level
across the top)
- Slide the saddle several centimeters forward on the seatpost
- Flip your stem, or obtain a high-rise stem that is shorter than current
stem
- Raise stem, add spacers, or get a stem extension to get handlebars up
higher
- Set your handlebar tops about level with the saddle top

First, let's cure your back pain; then we can work on your cruising speed.
I'm betting that by the time you've made all of these adjustments, your back
will be feeling much better. Try some stretching exercises to limber-up
your back, too.

It's amazing what a couple of centimeters in saddle fore-aft and saddle
height adjustment can do for your comfort level and spinning ability. Once
you've achieved comfort, then you can make fine adjustments, lower the bars
gradually, raise the saddle back up gradually, until you find the sweet
spot. Getting a riding position "dialed in" is an iterative process.

Hope this helps.

Barry Sanders

[Andrew Morris]

Ok, some feedback...

<snip>


> >No, i had an Avanti Corsa, 1999 model, which i had similar back issues
on,
>
> Oh..well, I was hoping you had another road bike with good fit that
> you could measure against. So much for that idea. :)

Yeah, and the Corsa was stolen just after I'd spent 2-3 months screwing
around with angles, and measures... It was ALMOST comfortable!!

> >however that was due to the "pro fit" i had done fitting me to a frame
size
> >that was one size too big... I have been ok on the TCR2 for about 1000
km,
>
> Bummer. When one pays to be fit, one expects to be properly fit.


True, however, the LBS is happy to fit, refit, and refit, including stem
changes, seat post changes, even crank changes until we get it right...
They have a couple of weeks, and I'll go to Kennedy's and get them to do it,
hang the cost...


> >but the issues are starting to hit me now, especially as we're moving
into
> >summer here, and things are warming up...
>
> Can I come and stay with you for 6 months or so? ;)


Hehe... trust, me, it's not that good... we had close on 100 F here today,
and I had to break my usual 60 km ride into 2x 30 km rides, primarily due to
a ******* of a headwind, and secondarily due to the heat..


> >> When the winter ends and I want to ride again, I'll probably be able
>
> >I'm just about to head off to the bike shop, to flip the stem (can't find
> >any allen keys) and see how we go from there...
> >
> >Will come back to the group once I've been for a ride...
>
> We'll be waiting...


Ok,

We flipped the factory stem on the TCR2, which gave me another 5.6 cm of bar
height, when measured from the front hub...

I had about 10 minutes on the trainer at the LBS, and the guy doing the
refit believed that the seat was a little too far forward, so we moved it
back about 3 mm.

After another 10 minutes on the trainer, he, and I were both happy that the
bike was feeling a lot more comfortable.

NOW, I've been out on the road twice, I have the following to report...

Back Pain is TOTALLY gone, after 60 km...

Average speed on first ride was 27.4 km/h, over a 30 km ride, an elevated
heart rate over previous (average bpm up from about 162 to 174)

Second ride, rode exactly the same route, and the average was up to 32.2
km/h, and still no back pain...

The guy at the LBS suggested that my camelbak mule could have been causing
the problems, which I was reluctant to believe, so rode with it on today,
and backpain still not apparent...

Thanks for your help guys... I'll be in touch over the next few days, after
I've done another couple of hundred km's...