freewheels and threaded hubs....

[thecontact_509@hotmail.com]

will any ACS, Dicta, or Shimano single speed freewheel thread onto a
Campy Pista, Shimano Dura Ace, or Phil Wood track hub?

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

wrote:
> will any ACS, Dicta, or Shimano single speed freewheel thread onto a
> Campy Pista, Shimano Dura Ace, or Phil Wood track hub?

Yep, the ones made for that thread pitch. Track hubs are just normal
freewheel pitch sections, made shorter so the reverse thread lockring
can go on. It is still tall enough for a single speed freewheel.

[Jasper Janssen]

On 24 Nov 2005 06:34:01 -0800, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
> wrote:

>Yep, the ones made for that thread pitch. Track hubs are just normal
>freewheel pitch sections, made shorter so the reverse thread lockring
>can go on. It is still tall enough for a single speed freewheel.

Isn't it more like freewheel threads are track threads made longer and
without the lockring thread? Seems like the track thread was there first
-- viz the old Sturmeys and coasters with thread to screw the cog on,
rather than the newer splines.

Incidentally, why aren't there Fixie hubs with Sturmey & co splines
instead of the archaic threaded system? I mean, the cogs are a lot
cheaper, they have built-in chainline adjustment with the raised shoulders
and the two 1 mm spacers, and it's just an objectively better design,
especially for fastening on cogs that might get reverse pressure. They're
not used on hundreds of millions of coaster brake hubs for nothing, after
all.

Jasper

[David L. Johnson]

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 02:25:18 +0000, Jasper Janssen wrote:

> Incidentally, why aren't there Fixie hubs with Sturmey & co splines
> instead of the archaic threaded system?

There is one. I forget the brand, but saw posts about it here a while
back. The pictures on the web site made it look like just the hub you are
looking for.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Let's be straight here. If we find something we can't
_`\(,_ | understand we like to call it something you can't understand, or
(_)/ (_) | indeed even pronounce. -- Douglas Adams

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

Jasper Janssen writes:

>> Yep, the ones made for that thread pitch. Track hubs are just
>> normal freewheel pitch sections, made shorter so the reverse thread
>> lockring can go on. It is still tall enough for a single speed
>> freewheel.

> Isn't it more like freewheel threads are track threads made longer
> and without the lockring thread? Seems like the track thread was
> there first -- viz the old Sturmeys and coasters with thread to
> screw the cog on, rather than the newer splines.

> Incidentally, why aren't there Fixie hubs with Sturmey & co splines
> instead of the archaic threaded system? I mean, the cogs are a lot
> cheaper, they have built-in chainline adjustment with the raised
> shoulders and the two 1 mm spacers, and it's just an objectively
> better design, especially for fastening on cogs that might get
> reverse pressure. They're not used on hundreds of millions of
> coaster brake hubs for nothing, after all.

This type of attachment only works well on centered chain lines and
only on steel. Slide-on sprockets that we have on cassettes today
were formerly secured by screwing on the last sprocket to prevent
fretting damage that would otherwise occur. It was only recently that
someone devised the detente style cover-nut that holds today's gear
clusters together. Had someone invented that forty years ago, you
probably wouldn't need to ask. Progress is slow.

Jobst Brandt

[A Muzi]

wrote:
> will any ACS, Dicta, or Shimano single speed freewheel thread onto a
> Campy Pista, Shimano Dura Ace, or Phil Wood track hub?
>
Yes.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Jasper Janssen]

On 27 Nov 2005 03:07:00 GMT, wrote:
>Jasper Janssen writes:
>
>>> Yep, the ones made for that thread pitch. Track hubs are just
>>> normal freewheel pitch sections, made shorter so the reverse thread
>>> lockring can go on. It is still tall enough for a single speed
>>> freewheel.
>
>> Isn't it more like freewheel threads are track threads made longer
>> and without the lockring thread? Seems like the track thread was
>> there first -- viz the old Sturmeys and coasters with thread to
>> screw the cog on, rather than the newer splines.
>
>> Incidentally, why aren't there Fixie hubs with Sturmey & co splines
>> instead of the archaic threaded system? I mean, the cogs are a lot
>> cheaper, they have built-in chainline adjustment with the raised
>> shoulders and the two 1 mm spacers, and it's just an objectively
>> better design, especially for fastening on cogs that might get
>> reverse pressure. They're not used on hundreds of millions of
>> coaster brake hubs for nothing, after all.
>
>This type of attachment only works well on centered chain lines and
>only on steel. Slide-on sprockets that we have on cassettes today
>were formerly secured by screwing on the last sprocket to prevent
>fretting damage that would otherwise occur. It was only recently that
>someone devised the detente style cover-nut that holds today's gear
>clusters together. Had someone invented that forty years ago, you
>probably wouldn't need to ask. Progress is slow.

Seems to me that a Sturmey three speed or a coaster brake are pretty much
identical in chainline etc. considerations to a track hub. They don't seem
particularly prone to fretting with the splined + circular spring
attachment. Are threaded track cogs typically made of aluminum?

Jasper

[Jasper Janssen]

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 21:39:59 -0500, "David L. Johnson"
> wrote:
>On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 02:25:18 +0000, Jasper Janssen wrote:
>
>> Incidentally, why aren't there Fixie hubs with Sturmey & co splines
>> instead of the archaic threaded system?
>
>There is one. I forget the brand, but saw posts about it here a while
>back. The pictures on the web site made it look like just the hub you are
>looking for.

It'd probably still be cheaper to take a coaster brake hub, remove the
innards, and weld the driver solid.

Jasper

[Helmut Springer]

Jasper Janssen > wrote:
> Are threaded track cogs typically made of aluminum?

No, but track hubs are.

--
MfG/Best regards
helmut springer

[Baird Webel]

David L. Johnson wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 02:25:18 +0000, Jasper Janssen wrote:
>
>
>>Incidentally, why aren't there Fixie hubs with Sturmey & co splines
>>instead of the archaic threaded system?
>
>
> There is one. I forget the brand, but saw posts about it here a while
> back. The pictures on the web site made it look like just the hub you are
> looking for.
>

Miche makes the splined system. I have no idea if it is the same spline
pattern as the sturmey.

Baird

[Tim McNamara]

Helmut Springer > writes:

> Jasper Janssen > wrote:
>> Are threaded track cogs typically made of aluminum?
>
> No, but track hubs are.

Right, and I think Jobst's point was that the steel cogs would fret
into the aluminum of the hub, especially the S-A design which has only
three small "splines." Cassette hubs with aluminum bodies and steel cogs
can have this problem (I see this on my 1999 Campy Chorus)- the cogs
"bite" into the softer aluminum and leave visible marks, and are a
little difficult to get off at times. It's necessary to torque down
the cog retainer firmly to minimize this.

[Mark Janeba]

Helmut Springer wrote:
> Jasper Janssen > wrote:
>
>>Are threaded track cogs typically made of aluminum?
>
>
> No, but track hubs are.

Am I mis-remembering? I thought I had used both steel and aluminum
track cogs, in my brief fling with fixed-gear, 20 years ago. I thought
the aluminum cog was a Campy, not some rare, exotic one-off affair.

Mark

[James Thomson]

"Baird Webel" > wrote:

> Miche makes the splined system. I have no idea if it is the same
> spline pattern as the sturmey.

It isn't: the Miche sprockets use seven evenly-spaced splines, while
Sturmeys use three.

Pictures here:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/fixed-sprockets.html

James Thomson

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

Jasper Janssen writes:

>>>> Yep, the ones made for that thread pitch. Track hubs are just
>>>> normal freewheel pitch sections, made shorter so the reverse
>>>> thread lockring can go on. It is still tall enough for a single
>>>> speed freewheel.

>>> Isn't it more like freewheel threads are track threads made longer
>>> and without the lockring thread? Seems like the track thread was
>>> there first -- viz the old Sturmeys and coasters with thread to
>>> screw the cog on, rather than the newer splines.

>>> Incidentally, why aren't there Fixie hubs with Sturmey & co
>>> splines instead of the archaic threaded system? I mean, the cogs
>>> are a lot cheaper, they have built-in chainline adjustment with
>>> the raised shoulders and the two 1 mm spacers, and it's just an
>>> objectively better design, especially for fastening on cogs that
>>> might get reverse pressure. They're not used on hundreds of
>>> millions of coaster brake hubs for nothing, after all.

>> This type of attachment only works well on centered chain lines and
>> only on steel. Slide-on sprockets that we have on cassettes today
>> were formerly secured by screwing on the last sprocket to prevent
>> fretting damage that would otherwise occur. It was only recently
>> that someone devised the detente style cover-nut that holds today's
>> gear clusters together. Had someone invented that forty years ago,
>> you probably wouldn't need to ask. Progress is slow.

> Seems to me that a Sturmey three speed or a coaster brake are pretty
> much identical in chainline etc. considerations to a track hub. They
> don't seem particularly prone to fretting with the splined +
> circular spring attachment. Are threaded track cogs typically made
> of aluminum?

That is true but when you already have a thread standard, it's easy to
just use it on track hubs. Hubs were threaded and could accept a
track sprocket of a freewheel. Many of these were ridden with a
one-speed freewheel. That's why road bicycles had horizontal dropouts
for all those years, so you could ride a fixed gear. It's all tradition.

Typically I broke Campagnolo axles on my road bicycle regularly when I
had horizontal dropouts. As I mentioned, I copied the Diamant
vertical dropout from East Germany in 1960 and the rave was on. You
see how hard it is to introduce reasonable technical ideas even here on
wreck.bike.

Jobst Brandt

[Helmut Springer]

Mark Janeba > wrote:
>>>Are threaded track cogs typically made of aluminum?
>>
>> No, but track hubs are.
>
> Am I mis-remembering? I thought I had used both steel and
> aluminum track cogs, in my brief fling with fixed-gear, 20 years
> ago. I thought the aluminum cog was a Campy, not some rare,
> exotic one-off affair.

Well, the question was "typically" 8)

I can't tell if there were aluminum track cogs for racing, so far
I've seen only steel ones and I'd assume aluminum to wear pretty
fast?

--
MfG/Best regards
helmut springer

[m-gineering]

Jobst Brandt wrote:
> It was only recently that
> someone devised the detente style cover-nut that holds today's gear
> clusters together. Had someone invented that forty years ago, you
> probably wouldn't need to ask. Progress is slow.

will 80-odd years ago do?

www.m-gineering.nl/retrog.htm


---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

[John Thompson]

On 2005-11-28, Helmut Springer > wrote:

> Mark Janeba > wrote:
>>>>Are threaded track cogs typically made of aluminum?
>>>
>>> No, but track hubs are.
>>
>> Am I mis-remembering? I thought I had used both steel and
>> aluminum track cogs, in my brief fling with fixed-gear, 20 years
>> ago. I thought the aluminum cog was a Campy, not some rare,
>> exotic one-off affair.
>
> Well, the question was "typically" 8)
>
> I can't tell if there were aluminum track cogs for racing, so far
> I've seen only steel ones and I'd assume aluminum to wear pretty
> fast?

Campy and Zeus both made alloy track cogs, and yes they did wear pretty
quickly. But there was an extreme lightness fad going on in the mid-late
70s and companies were happy to oblige with lightweight, fast wearing
parts.

--

John )

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

Marten Gerritsen writes:

>> It was only recently that someone devised the detente style
>> cover-nut that holds today's gear clusters together. Had someone
>> invented that forty years ago, you probably wouldn't need to ask.
>> Progress is slow.

> will 80-odd years ago do?
> www.m-gineering.nl/retrog.htm

No, because they didn't have a detent lock nut as is evident from the
mashed removal slot in the retaining nut. Lotta force and pounding!

Jobst Brandt

[Jasper Janssen]

On 28 Nov 2005 20:29:19 GMT, wrote:

>No, because they didn't have a detent lock nut as is evident from the
>mashed removal slot in the retaining nut. Lotta force and pounding!

What do you mean by detent lock nut? The splines between it and the tool?

Jasper

[Helmut Springer]

Jasper Janssen > wrote:
> What do you mean by detent lock nut? The splines between it and
> the tool?

Nope, the teeth on locknut and freehub, the ones that go "krkrkrkrk"
when you tighten it...

--
MfG/Best regards
helmut springer

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

Jasper Janssen writes:

>> No, because they didn't have a detent lock nut as is evident from
>> the mashed removal slot in the retaining nut. Lotta force and
>> pounding!

> What do you mean by detent lock nut? The splines between it and the
> tool?

www.m-gineering.nl/retrog.htm

Look at the picture with the "freehub" dismantled. A detent locknut
requires no such extreme force. It just clicks into place and stays
there. Of course today these lock nuts are used to hold the sprockets
on the cassette hub rather than the freewheel mechanism AND
sprocket(s) onto the hub as this old unit did.

Jobst Brandt