Cyclist attcked in Sheffield!

[John]

I've just been reading a cyclists account of being attacked in Sheffield,
and it was quite upsetting.

http://www.ctcforum.org.uk/MesReplist.aspx?bcid=7&id=20895

What is the world (Britain) coming too? Sorry if this has been posted
before.



John

[Jon Senior]

John wrote:
> I've just been reading a cyclists account of being attacked in Sheffield,
> and it was quite upsetting.
>
> http://www.ctcforum.org.uk/MesReplist.aspx?bcid=7&id=20895
>
> What is the world (Britain) coming too? Sorry if this has been posted
> before.

Jesus! The thing that really wound me up was the audience. They just
stood and watched. If no-one even said anything to the attacker then in
my eyes, that's aiding and abetting! Block his car in with another then
call the police (Assuming the preferred option of finding a bigger stick
and hitting him until he forgets his name isn't available!).

It does bring home painfully the dangers of talking to aggressive /
stupid drivers. Of course... if no-one does then there is even less of a
check on their behaviour.

Jon

[vernon]

"Jon Senior" <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOT_co_DOT_uk> wrote in message
...
> John wrote:
> > I've just been reading a cyclists account of being attacked in
Sheffield,
> > and it was quite upsetting.
> >
> > http://www.ctcforum.org.uk/MesReplist.aspx?bcid=7&id=20895
> >
> > What is the world (Britain) coming too? Sorry if this has been posted
> > before.
>
> Jesus! The thing that really wound me up was the audience. They just
> stood and watched. If no-one even said anything to the attacker then in
> my eyes, that's aiding and abetting! Block his car in with another then
> call the police (Assuming the preferred option of finding a bigger stick
> and hitting him until he forgets his name isn't available!).
>
It's all too easy to be critical of the the bystanders but one has to
acknowledge that stepping in to intervene when a psychopath is active takes
considerable courage. In my career(s) as a liontamer, prison guard, law
enforcer which are subsumed under the title, teacher in an inner city area,
I have stepped into some very nasty, violent and ugly scenes with little
thought for my own safety. Few of my colleagues as as derring-do and I do
not hold it against them as for some, the Philip Lawrence murder is a
powerful deterrent. I suggest that fears for their own personal safety was a
major factor in their lack of action. The tale is upsetting as is the
subsequent but unrelated racist attack. I have some sympathy for the
victim's current state of affairs but I suggest, and this will be hard to
swallow for some, that it all could have been avoided if initial physical
contact with the car had not been made.

The subsequent explosion of road rage was not justified by the cyclist's
actions but it has been suggested many times here that cyclists need to be
mindful of their frailty when considering 'taking on' motorists. I would
never consider antagonising a car driver whilst riding a bike, immortality
is no longer something that I think I possess.

[misterroy]

dont tap on the window, buy one of these:
BIKETRAX Air Zound horn and blow them out of the way

roy

[Jon Senior]

vernon wrote:
> It's all too easy to be critical of the the bystanders but one has to
> acknowledge that stepping in to intervene when a psychopath is active takes
> considerable courage.

But in this day of the ubiquitous mobile phone (I know only know one
person who doesn't own one!) intervention can take the form of four key
presses and a the words "Assault in progress". The police still respond
pretty rapidly to a crime in progress. Anything which would have
distracted him initially and given the victim time to escape would be
good. Yes it's easy with hindsight, but it's not rocket science either.
Far too often there is an usumption that "Someone else will have already
done something".

> In my career(s) as a liontamer, prison guard, law
> enforcer which are subsumed under the title, teacher in an inner city area,
> I have stepped into some very nasty, violent and ugly scenes with little
> thought for my own safety. Few of my colleagues as as derring-do and I do
> not hold it against them as for some, the Philip Lawrence murder is a
> powerful deterrent. I suggest that fears for their own personal safety was a
> major factor in their lack of action.

I understand, and in a one-on-one situation this is understandable, but
despite what Hollywood might suggest one man (With or without a golf
club) will not pull through against a crowd.

> The tale is upsetting as is the
> subsequent but unrelated racist attack. I have some sympathy for the
> victim's current state of affairs but I suggest, and this will be hard to
> swallow for some, that it all could have been avoided if initial physical
> contact with the car had not been made.

True. I tend to refrain from touching peoples cars, although I will
(often politely) give them grief for actions which endanger me, or are
plain stupid. Making it abundantly clear to someone that they are in the
wrong is more likely to correct their behaviour than ignoring it.

> The subsequent explosion of road rage was not justified by the cyclist's
> actions but it has been suggested many times here that cyclists need to be
> mindful of their frailty when considering 'taking on' motorists. I would
> never consider antagonising a car driver whilst riding a bike, immortality
> is no longer something that I think I possess.

The last time I got into a serious confrontation with a driver I was
propelled on sheer rage, but despite this I had worked out where to run
if it all went wrong. I've only been threatened twice and once was
mostly in jest by a driver who was heading in a different direction. By
contrast on a "bad" day, I'll explain what the "bloody great red box
with the picture of a bike in it" means to at least three drivers. In
the same time period I've actually had more drivers apologise for not
realising than I've had threats on my life.

Jon

[Simon Brooke]

in message >, John
') wrote:

> I've just been reading a cyclists account of being attacked in
> Sheffield, and it was quite upsetting.
>
> http://www.ctcforum.org.uk/MesReplist.aspx?bcid=7&id=20895
>
> What is the world (Britain) coming too? Sorry if this has been posted
> before.

Because this story isn't very well formatted on the website and is a bit
clunky to read there, and because it seems to me rather important, I'll
repost it here:

----- begin quote ------------------------------------------------------
Alan T A Williams:

I am not a member of the CTC but belong to a cycling campaign group in
Sheffield called Pedal Pushers. After posting the message below a number
of CTC members on the list suggested I contact the CTC for help. I spoke
to the CTC today and the person I related my story to suggested I post
this on the CTC list.

Following my posting to Pedal Pushers,one of the debates it sparked
related to how to respond to inconsiderate or dangerous driving. I guess
the debate will have been had on this list, so I won't repeat what was
said here.

Here's my incident.

I had a horrible incident this morning (Wednesday 7th) on my way to work.
I was travelling along Sharrow Street in Sheffield towards Sharrow Lane
when a car came up behind me, sounded the horn and squeezed by at speed
nearly knocking me off my bike.

When I got to the end of the road the car was at the junction as up and
down Sharrow Lane was gridlocked. As I passed I tapped on the window and
said "Be Careful"; I wasn't angry or aggressive and didn't raise my
voice. In fact I was in a good mood and enjoying a fresh ride to work.

What happened next is beyond belief: I heard the car rev behind me and,
bearing in mind I was travelling past 2 lanes of stationary
traffic,somehow squeezed through or round and rammed into the side of
me. I just felt a crunching sound and the next thing I knew I was on the
ground, facing back the way I came with my bike on top of me.

While I was laying on the floor, with everybody looking out of windows at
me, the driver then got out of the car with a sawn off golf iron and
started to attack me, shouting "I'm going to f***ing kill you!".
Somehow, I manged to get to my feet and run. He then chased after me (I
wasn't too quick by this time)and clubbed me at the back of the head. I
think my shouts for help and getting further from his car, made him turn
back.

I couldn't get back to my bike, as each time I got anywhere near he
chased after me trying to club me. All the while loads of people stuck,
in the now major jam, just watched. And I kept on shouting for someone
to phone the Police. To be fair I think they were all scared. One lady
looked really shocked as she tried to hand me a piece of paper with the
registration number on.

Unfortunately, my cries for help were heard and a gang of Asian youths
raced up the road. It was then I realised they weren't coming to help. I
ran through the entrance of Sharrow Junior School, but with a sore back
and leg they caught me outside the caretakers office and punched and
kicked me repeatedly, with cries of "Kill the white b**stard". I somehow
kept enough wits about me to realise if I fell to the floor they would
just keep on. I was close to losing consciousness and just wanted to
curl up in a ball, but I carried on shouting help (which I'd probably
been doing for 10 minutes)and manged to break free and run into the
school, blood pouring down my face and left eye closed.

I have to say, the staff at the school were wonderful and looked after me
with care until the police and ambulance arrived. Two of the staff even
went out to retrieve my bike. They later told me that the motorists who
witnessed the first event pulled into the side of the road to give
statements to the police. The lady I mentioned earlier was clearly very
upset at what she had witnessed and couldn't continue her journey for a
while.

I was taken to the Northern General and I have no serious injuries. I've
got lumps everwhere, my left hip is sore where I hit the road and my
left eye is purple and nearly closed. My main injury though is mental. I
feel really upset. I can't believe that someone could drive a car into a
human being (it equates to someone trying to kill you) and then while
you are lying on the floor start clubbing you. Worse than that though,
is that my cries for help were answered by a mob who just wanted to beat
me to a pulp while people watched.

The Police traced the car and have arested the driver and taken away his
car.

A CID inspector spent 3 hour with me this evening and took a statement of
13 pages. They are taking the matter very seriously and a number of
witnesses have been able to give accurate descriptions of the attacker
and events. They are not optimistic about catching the gang who
subsequently attacked me.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do when I recover. I don't want to drive
but I'm getting tired of running the gauntlet and I don't know that I
have the heart for it anymore.

I final word of warning, I've had a few near misses on Sharrow Street (a
recommended quiet cycling route). The road has parked cars on both sides
and there is only room for one vehicle. With care and slow speed a car
can get past a bike, but I've been unlucky to have a few aggressive
drivers who have increased speed towards me and been close to catching
me with a mirror. I guess they expect you to pull in, which I would if
space between cars permitted, and get angry when you don't.

Cheers

Alan
----- end quote --------------------------------------------------------

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; For in much wisdom is much grief; and he that increaseth
;; knowledge increaseth sorrow.." - Ecclesiastes 1:18

[Simon Brooke]

in message >, vernon
') wrote:

>
> "Jon Senior" <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOT_co_DOT_uk> wrote in message
> ...
>> John wrote:
>> > I've just been reading a cyclists account of being attacked in
> Sheffield,
>> > and it was quite upsetting.
>> >
>> > http://www.ctcforum.org.uk/MesReplist.aspx?bcid=7&id=20895
>>
>> Jesus! The thing that really wound me up was the audience. They just
>> stood and watched.

The thing that really gets to me is the gang who chased and attacked an
already injured man. That is very, very sick indeed.

> I have some sympathy for the
> victim's current state of affairs but I suggest, and this will be hard
> to swallow for some, that it all could have been avoided if initial
> physical contact with the car had not been made.

[snip]

> I would never consider antagonising a car driver whilst riding a bike,
> immortality is no longer something that I think I possess.

I appreciate what you are saying, Vernon, but civil society cannot
survive if bullies are allowed to get away with bullying - something I'm
sure you know, actually, in your position as teacher. *Politely* calling
bullies to task, as this man did, has to be the right thing[1] to do.
That no-one intervened to help him is, as Jon says, dreadful, but not
surprising. That third parties intervened to /attack/ the victim is
simply shocking.

[1] in the sense of the moral and the responsible thing to do in the
interests of _communal_ safety, although as this incident shows not
necessarily the right thing to do from the point of view of _personal_
safety. But if everyone puts their _personal_ safety in front of the
social good, no-one will be safe.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Just as defying the law of gravity through building aircraft requires
careful design and a lot of effort, so too does defying laws of
economics. It seems to be a deeply ingrained aspect of humanity to
forever strive to improve things, so unquestioning acceptance of a
free market system seems to me to be unnatural. ;; Charles Bryant

[vernon]

> I appreciate what you are saying, Vernon, but civil society cannot
> survive if bullies are allowed to get away with bullying - something I'm
> sure you know, actually, in your position as teacher. *Politely* calling
> bullies to task, as this man did, has to be the right thing[1] to do.
> That no-one intervened to help him is, as Jon says, dreadful, but not
> surprising. That third parties intervened to /attack/ the victim is
> simply shocking.

It's not the tolerance of bullying but the means of addressing it that was
the probablecause of the violent actionss. Asking someone to cease is all
well and good if you have an escape route. The mistake was to physically
touch property of the perpetrator of the crime. It's amazing how
territorial some people are and an infringement of their personal space or
touching their possessions can unleash a disproportionately violent
response. It's easy enough for me to deal with kids in a voodoo rage in most
instance I've got a 75% plus of their body weight as a weight advantage.
Nevertheless I've had to cope with six stone nutters telling me that they
are going nowhere as they are propelled with an irresistible force to an
inclusion unit. It's not so easy to do with an adult weilding a golf club
shaft.

We do need to remind ourselves that icidents involving extreme violence
towards cyclists are extremely rare.

[Peter B]

"Jon Senior" <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOT_co_DOT_uk> wrote in message
...
> I understand, and in a one-on-one situation this is understandable, but
> despite what Hollywood might suggest one man (With or without a golf
> club) will not pull through against a crowd.

The problem here is that someone has to make the initial move out of their
vehicle and hope that others will back them up, bearing in mind these are
people hermetically sealed inside their individual "spaces". Maybe had there
been a "have-a-go-hero" or a couple of confident/angry blokes together in a
vehicle or standing around support would have come.

> True. I tend to refrain from touching peoples cars, although I will
> (often politely) give them grief for actions which endanger me, or are
> plain stupid. Making it abundantly clear to someone that they are in the
> wrong is more likely to correct their behaviour than ignoring it.
> The last time I got into a serious confrontation with a driver I was
> propelled on sheer rage, but despite this I had worked out where to run
> if it all went wrong. I've only been threatened twice and once was
> mostly in jest by a driver who was heading in a different direction.

Yes, I often act before thinking through the possible consequences but think
it's ill-advised and believe a motorist should never get out of their
vehicle to engage in an altercation (unless they're confident of coming out
on top if the situation deteriorates or they don't mind a hiding ;-), of
course when cycling we don't have the safety cage to begin with.

--
Pete
/Stuff

[Adam Lea]

"Jon Senior" <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOT_co_DOT_uk> wrote in message
...
> John wrote:
> Jesus! The thing that really wound me up was the audience. They just
> stood and watched. If no-one even said anything to the attacker then in
> my eyes, that's aiding and abetting! Block his car in with another then
> call the police (Assuming the preferred option of finding a bigger stick
> and hitting him until he forgets his name isn't available!).
>

How exactly do you stop a enraged psychopath wielding a golfing iron and
who's not afraid to use it?

[Alex Potter]

Adam Lea wrote on Sunday 11 December 2005 16:40:
>
> How exactly do you stop a enraged psychopath wielding a golfing iron
> and who's not afraid to use it?

Dart him?
--
Regards
Alex
The From address above is a spam-trap.
The Reply-To address is valid

[Tony Raven]

Adam Lea wrote:
>
> How exactly do you stop a enraged psychopath wielding a golfing iron and
> who's not afraid to use it?
>

Tell him the membership committee will have him thrown out? ;-)

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham

[garryb59]

On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 16:40:24 +0000 (UTC), "Adam Lea"
> wrote:

>
>"Jon Senior" <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOT_co_DOT_uk> wrote in message
...
>> John wrote:
>> Jesus! The thing that really wound me up was the audience. They just
>> stood and watched. If no-one even said anything to the attacker then in
>> my eyes, that's aiding and abetting! Block his car in with another then
>> call the police (Assuming the preferred option of finding a bigger stick
>> and hitting him until he forgets his name isn't available!).
>>
>
>How exactly do you stop a enraged psychopath wielding a golfing iron and
>who's not afraid to use it?

Exactly. If you engage, [and I really don't know whether you do or you
don't....your choice], one thing is for sure, you're in it for the
long haul. If it resolves itself, then great, all is well, if it
doesn't, then you better make sure you do violence yourself too.

Am I the only one who thinks that this incident has bugger all to do
with the woes of cycling and everything to do with race hate?

Garry

[Wally]

garryb59 wrote:

> Am I the only one who thinks that this incident has bugger all to do
> with the woes of cycling and everything to do with race hate?

There was nothing to suggest that the initial attack by the motorist had
anything to do with race (unlike the subsequent attack by the gang).


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

[John_Kane]

Jon Senior wrote:
> John wrote:
> > I've just been reading a cyclists account of being attacked in Sheffield,
> > and it was quite upsetting.
> >
> > http://www.ctcforum.org.uk/MesReplist.aspx?bcid=7&id=20895
> >
> > What is the world (Britain) coming too? Sorry if this has been posted
> > before.
>
> Jesus! The thing that really wound me up was the audience. They just
> stood and watched. If no-one even said anything to the attacker then in
> my eyes, that's aiding and abetting! Block his car in with another then
> call the police (Assuming the preferred option of finding a bigger stick
> and hitting him until he forgets his name isn't available!).

I think that time may have had a real effect here. It may have taken
the spectators long enough to understand what was happening and react
that the driver could escape. You need to be able to put a frame or
context on what you are seeing. I would not be suprised to find that
the whole sequence of the driver attacking took less than 30 seconds

If you are driving or walking along on your normal commute you
probably don't expect to see an attempted homicide by car and golf club
suddenly occur. It takes time to focus on this and interpret it as an
attack not just something funny happening up ahead. If the other people
around were concentrating on something else they may not have even
realised that there was a problem until the man was out of the car and
swinging the golf club.

A police officer, on the other hand, is as a part of the job ready to
respond (plus he/she is trained to do so). And is probably more
predisposed to see danger/crime.

I was impressed that the woman who appeared so shaken managed to get
the registration and that many of the drivers stayed to be witnesses.
It actually says good things about the average citizen.

The gang on the other hand does not sound all that nice. :(

>
> It does bring home painfully the dangers of talking to aggressive /
> stupid drivers. Of course... if no-one does then there is even less of a
> check on their behaviour.
>
> Jon

Of course that one sounded like a stick of dynamite ready to explode at
anything. If it had not been the cyclist, it might have been a
pedestrian or another driver etc.
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

[garryb59]

On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 18:39:20 GMT, "Wally" > wrote:

>garryb59 wrote:
>
>> Am I the only one who thinks that this incident has bugger all to do
>> with the woes of cycling and everything to do with race hate?
>
>There was nothing to suggest that the initial attack by the motorist had
>anything to do with race (unlike the subsequent attack by the gang).

No sure, I phrased that badly and I didn't mean to make that the main
point of what I was trying to say, it was about the 'violence' of it
all, and the problem of getting involved.

Trying to envisage what I would have done, .....I don't know. I just
can't see a scenaio where anything but me engaging of violence of some
description would have been of any use to the cyclist whatsoever at
the outset of it all.

Garry

[Alistair Gunn]

garryb59 twisted the electrons to say:
> Trying to envisage what I would have done, .....I don't know. I just
> can't see a scenaio where anything but me engaging of violence of some
> description would have been of any use to the cyclist whatsoever at
> the outset of it all.

[1] Dial 999 and report incident
[2] Get out of car, and shout "I've phoned the police"

... *might* make the driver realise that his time is running out and
that he should leave. For added bonus points, if the driver's left his
engine runnning, remove keys and throw them into the back of his car.
(ie: you haven't *stolen* them, merely prevented someone from fleeing the
law!)
--
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...

[Simon Brooke]

in message >, vernon
') wrote:

> We do need to remind ourselves that icidents involving extreme violence
> towards cyclists are extremely rare.

Indeed, and thank god.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; MS Windows: A thirty-two bit extension ... to a sixteen bit
;; patch to an eight bit operating system originally coded for a
;; four bit microprocessor and sold by a two-bit company that
;; can't stand one bit of competition -- anonymous

[Simon Brooke]

in message >, garryb59
') wrote:

> On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 16:40:24 +0000 (UTC), "Adam Lea"
> > wrote:
>
> Am I the only one who thinks that this incident has bugger all to do
> with the woes of cycling and everything to do with race hate?

Probably, although the race of the original attacker isn't reported.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
There's nae Gods, an there's precious few heroes
but there's plenty on the dole in th Land o th Leal;
And it's time now, tae sweep the future clear o
th lies o a past that we know wis never real.

[garryb59]

On 11 Dec 2005 19:40:01 GMT, Alistair Gunn >
wrote:

>garryb59 twisted the electrons to say:
>> Trying to envisage what I would have done, .....I don't know. I just
>> can't see a scenaio where anything but me engaging of violence of some
>> description would have been of any use to the cyclist whatsoever at
>> the outset of it all.
>
>[1] Dial 999 and report incident

Ok. So, how long is it going to take you to pick up your phone, dial
999 and 'report' the accident. 'Seconds', you might say. 'Seconds'???
The guy lying on the floor being attacked with a club hasn't got that
much time, not if his life's in danger, which it clearly was. He needs
your help now. Luckily, he got away....probably motivated by the
realization that nobody was going to help him...immediately.

>[2] Get out of car, and shout "I've phoned the police"

> ... *might* make the driver realise that his time is running out and
>that he should leave. For added bonus points, if the driver's left his
>engine runnning, remove keys and throw them into the back of his car.
>(ie: you haven't *stolen* them, merely prevented someone from fleeing the
>law!)

Ok. These are the actions of a responsible citizen, but in reality, in
terms of how it helps the cyclist in the time window available to you,
it's no different to the woman sitting in the car getting the
registration of psychos vehicle - it doesn't.


Garry

[[email protected]]

Wally wrote:
> garryb59 wrote:
>
> > Am I the only one who thinks that this incident has bugger all to do
> > with the woes of cycling and everything to do with race hate?
>
> There was nothing to suggest that the initial attack by the motorist had
> anything to do with race (unlike the subsequent attack by the gang).
>

If the motorist was Asian and the cyclist perceived it as a racial
attack then would it not be a racial attack?

[Jon Senior]

wrote:
> If the motorist was Asian and the cyclist perceived it as a racial
> attack then would it not be a racial attack?

Yes. And if the motorist was a Martian and the cyclist perceived it as
an alien invasion, it would be an alien invasion. Given that he reported
the ethnicity of the gang, but not of the motorist, one might be led to
believe that the original attack was not racial.

Jon

[John B]

Simon Brooke wrote:

> in message >, vernon
> ') wrote:
>
> > We do need to remind ourselves that icidents involving extreme violence
> > towards cyclists are extremely rare.
>
> Indeed, and thank god.

I would like to think this type of incident is not on the increase.
However I fear they are.

In recent times I've attacked while riding the Brommie without any reason by
a crazed youth high on something or other, and the police say there's
nothing that can be done.
I have also been stopped by groups of youths when riding through certain
areas - even on our E2E we were accosted on the outskirts of Carlisle in
broad daylight.
Some years back when I reported a driver who drove his car into me, the
police desk officer dismissively responded - "but you are not hurt are you",
despite having a grazed leg as a result.

More recent, here have been a number of reports in our local press of riders
being pushed from bikes by groups of youths and having them stolen and even
worse.

I *do* think attacks on cyclists are rising. While cycling is derided in
rags like the Mail, given negligible respect by the law or politicians, and
viewed as transport only for the poor, cycling will be viewed as fair game
for the yob element hell-bent on increasing their kicks.
And by allowing the car-culture to become more anarchic by the day [1], such
attacks will escalate as respect for anyone on a bike drops to zilch.

[1] makes me feel like Howard saying this.

<rant over>

John B

[[email protected]]

Jon Senior wrote:
> wrote:
> > If the motorist was Asian and the cyclist perceived it as a racial
> > attack then would it not be a racial attack?
>
> Yes. And if the motorist was a Martian and the cyclist perceived it as
> an alien invasion, it would be an alien invasion. Given that he reported
> the ethnicity of the gang, but not of the motorist, one might be led to
> believe that the original attack was not racial.

Gosh, that makes it better.

I don't think that Macpherson commented on the abuse of green people. I
suppose that its a sign of the success of our society when a group of
Asian bystanders help an outraged white motorist in an attack on a
cyclist who dared to touch his car. They obviously share a sense of the
sacred.

"following the MacPherson inquiry into the murder of Stephen Lawrence,
the police are obliged to accept the victim's perception of an attack.
If the victim believes it to be a racist attack, the police have to
treat it as one, leading to a large subjective element in the
reporting." (Kenan Malik)

Of course, being a cyclist and therefore a decent bloke, the victim may
not have wished to harp on about the race of his attackers.

[garryb59]

On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 20:10:27 +0000, Simon Brooke
> wrote:

>in message >, garryb59
') wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 16:40:24 +0000 (UTC), "Adam Lea"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> Am I the only one who thinks that this incident has bugger all to do
>> with the woes of cycling and everything to do with race hate?
>
>Probably, although the race of the original attacker isn't reported.

Naturally.

Simon [or anybody else for that matter], just out of interest, given
that all the motorists behaved so dreadfully, what would you have done
to help that cyclist from sustaining injury in the manner and time in
which he did?

Garry

[Jon Senior]

wrote:
> Gosh, that makes it better.
0
/|\ .
/ \ ^
This is you! This is the point! (It's a little to one side ;-))

> I don't think that Macpherson commented on the abuse of green people. I
> suppose that its a sign of the success of our society when a group of
> Asian bystanders help an outraged white motorist in an attack on a
> cyclist who dared to touch his car. They obviously share a sense of the
> sacred.
>
> "following the MacPherson inquiry into the murder of Stephen Lawrence,
> the police are obliged to accept the victim's perception of an attack.
> If the victim believes it to be a racist attack, the police have to
> treat it as one, leading to a large subjective element in the
> reporting." (Kenan Malik)
>
> Of course, being a cyclist and therefore a decent bloke, the victim may
> not have wished to harp on about the race of his attackers.

The original attacker was (AFAICT) white. The gang was Asian. The
original attack was not (AFAICT) racially motivated. The second one was.
Can you see where this is going?

Had the original attack not taken place, then there would have been no
cries for help to attract the attentions of the gang. I'm not suggesting
that the motorist was responsible for their behaviour but the event as a
whole was precipitated by an attack on a (presumably) white cyclist by a
(presumably) white motorist. DKUATB!

Jon

[Martin Bulmer]

John wrote:
> I've just been reading a cyclists account of being attacked in
> Sheffield, and it was quite upsetting.
>
> http://www.ctcforum.org.uk/MesReplist.aspx?bcid=7&id=20895
>
> What is the world (Britain) coming too? Sorry if this has been posted
> before.
>
>
>
> John

This sounds fake. Is there any newspaper report of it? This sounds like an
attempt to stir up anti-Asian feelings.
Just my 2p'orth.
--


Martin Bulmer

[Ambrose Nankivell]

Martin Bulmer wrote:
> John wrote:
>> I've just been reading a cyclists account of being attacked in
>> Sheffield, and it was quite upsetting.
>>
>> http://www.ctcforum.org.uk/MesReplist.aspx?bcid=7&id=20895
>>
>> What is the world (Britain) coming too? Sorry if this has been
>> posted before.
>
> This sounds fake. Is there any newspaper report of it? This sounds
> like an attempt to stir up anti-Asian feelings.
> Just my 2p'orth.

The quote of "Get the white *******" sounds unrealistic to me, too. And
IIRC, the area doesn't strike me as being the kind of place where there's a
large enough asian population for violence against whites to be likely.

--
Ambrose

[vernon]

> This sounds fake. Is there any newspaper report of it? This sounds like an
> attempt to stir up anti-Asian feelings.
> Just my 2p'orth.
> --
Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction....

[Andy Morris]

Martin Bulmer wrote:
> John wrote:
>> I've just been reading a cyclists account of being attacked in
>> Sheffield, and it was quite upsetting.
>>
>> http://www.ctcforum.org.uk/MesReplist.aspx?bcid=7&id=20895
>>
>> What is the world (Britain) coming too? Sorry if this has been
>> posted before.
>>
>>
>>
>> John
>
> This sounds fake. Is there any newspaper report of it? This sounds
> like an attempt to stir up anti-Asian feelings.
> Just my 2p'orth.

Didn't come up in google news under sheffield cyclist or bike. I'd bet on it
being a racist wind up.

--
Andy Morris

AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

Love this:
Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/

[Helen Deborah Vecht]

"Ambrose Nankivell" >typed

> The quote of "Get the white *******" sounds unrealistic to me, too. And
> IIRC, the area doesn't strike me as being the kind of place where there's a
> large enough asian population for violence against whites to be likely.

Do you know Sharrow then?

Asian gangs have killed white people on racial grounds elsewhere. It
could easily happen here (Brent). I don't see why it can't happen in
Sharrow.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

[Helen Deborah Vecht]

"Andy Morris" >typed


> Didn't come up in google news under sheffield cyclist or bike. I'd bet
> on it
> being a racist wind up.

Are there any members of Pedal Pushers here?
Have they met Alan?

Have they seen hime since the incident?

The account seems to give many details that could be confirmed or
refuted by locals; I am sufficiently naive to believe this occurred.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

[Mark Thompson]

> Are there any members of Pedal Pushers here?
> Have they met Alan?

I thought it sounded a bit dodgy too. I couldn't see anything about it on
their website. They have a news bit so expected to see it there as he's a
member. Couldn't have a look at their mailing list archives as membership
to the list requires approval from an admin.

[Wally]

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:

> The account seems to give many details that could be confirmed or
> refuted by locals; I am sufficiently naive to believe this occurred.

Can't see any sign of it on...

http://www.southyorks.police.uk/news/


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

[Wally]

Simon Brooke reposted:

> ----- begin quote
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Alan T A Williams:

> I had a horrible incident this morning (Wednesday 7th) on my way to
> work. I was travelling along Sharrow Street in Sheffield towards
> Sharrow Lane ...

Map courtesy of Multimap...

http://tinyurl.com/dnfdd


> When I got to the end of the road the car was at the junction as up
> and down Sharrow Lane was gridlocked.

He got to the end of the road and the car was *at* the junction - it had a
clear run along Sharrow Street and stopped at the junction because Sharrow
Lane was gridlocked.


> As I passed I tapped on the
> window and said "Be Careful";

He *passed* the car at the junction - he must have continued out into the
gridlocked traffic.



> What happened next is beyond belief: I heard the car rev behind me
> and, bearing in mind I was travelling past 2 lanes of stationary
> traffic,

Travelling in which direction, I wonder. I'm tempted to think that morning
gridlock is most likely in the direction heading into the city centre, which
would mean turning left at the end of Sharrow Road. I'd be a little
skeptical of gridlock in the other direction, although I suppose it could be
a rat-run, or maybe have a crossing that might temporarily stop the traffic
in the outward direction. If it's unlikely to gidlock going outwards, then
Sharrow Lane would have to have two lanes heading into the city centre.


> ... somehow squeezed through or round and rammed into the side of
> me.

The car leapt out into gridlocked traffic and did one of the following...

1 . Turned left and dived up the inside of the traffic, got alongside the
cyclist and rammed him.

2. Got through the first line of traffic, turned left, got alongside the
cyclist and rammed him.

3. Got through the first line of traffic, turned right, got alongside the
cyclist and rammed him.

4. Got through two lines of traffic, turned left, got alongside the cyclist
and rammed him.

5. Got through two lines of traffic, turned right, got alongside the cyclist
and rammed him.

6. Leapt forward from the junction and hit the side of cyclist with the
front of the car just as he was just finishing a right turn (the cyclst
later says his left hip was sore from hitting the road, suggesting the car
hit him on the right-hand side).


> I just felt a crunching sound and the next thing I knew I was on
> the ground, facing back the way I came with my bike on top of me.
>
> While I was laying on the floor, with everybody looking out of
> windows at me, the driver then got out of the car with a sawn off
> golf iron

What, exactly, is a "sawn off golf iron"? One with the head cut off, leaving
a thin-walled, narrow tube with a rubber handle? Consider: if it's *sawn
off*, all it really is a golf club *shaft* and a handle - from which there
is no real way to determine if it was a driver or an iron.

The cyclist is on the ground having just been belted by a car hard enough to
"feel a crunching sound". There he is, on the deck, presumably dazed, bike
on top of him, and yet he notices that the punters in their cars are all
looking, that the psycho driver is out of his car and advancing with a "sawn
off golf iron".

So, he's on the deck with a broken somethingorother and...

> He then
> chased after me (I wasn't too quick by this time)

Now he's up and running! Not too quick *this time*? Had he already done a
runner from the swinging thin-walled lightweight tube and succeded?


> ... and clubbed me at the back of the head.

'Clubbed' with the end of a thin-walled narrow tube weighing a few ounces?



> I think my shouts for help and getting further
> from his car, made him turn back.
>
> I couldn't get back to my bike, as each time I got anywhere near he
> chased after me trying to club me. All the while loads of people
> stuck, in the now major jam,

In the NOW major jam? Sharrow Lane was already gridlocked when the car
stopped at the junction.

Anyway, the car is sitting in the street, presumably fairly close to the
bike, having just hit it. The driver is standing in the vicinity, looking
threatening with the 'golf iron' and chasing the cyclist whenever he comes
near. This psycho just attacked the cyclist with a motor vehicle, got out
and belted him on the back of the head with a 'golf iron', so the cyclist
tries more than once ("each time I got anywhere near") to advance towards
his bike to retrieve it. A presumably-unarmed cyclist with a broken
somethingorother who's just been belted on the back of the head is walking
towards the nutter that just tried, twice, to kill him...


> ... just watched. And I kept on shouting for
> someone to phone the Police. To be fair I think they were all scared.
> One lady looked really shocked as she tried to hand me a piece of
> paper with the registration number on.

....and then, some woman who's crapping herself walks up and hands him a bit
of paper with the offending car's reg number on it!


> Unfortunately, my cries for help were heard and a gang of Asian youths
> raced up the road. It was then I realised they weren't coming to
> help. I ran through the entrance of Sharrow Junior School, ...

Sharrow Junior School ...

http://www.sharrow-jun.sheffield.sch.uk/

....is on South View Road. According to Multimap, it's at the '5' overlay on
this map...

http://tinyurl.com/9cwrt

....which is borne out by other maps online. Note the scale bar along the
bottom of the map. From the junction between Sharrow Street and Sharrow
Lane, to the junction at South View Road, it's a nearly 200yds, and about
the same again to where Multimap puts the school.

If the cyclist and car had turned right onto Sharrow Lane, the minimum
distance he has covered, from the to-ing and fro-ing with the 'golf iron'
wielding driver and realising that the 'gang of asian youths' weren't
friendly, is nearly 200yds. He's to-ing and fro-ing, doesn't like the looks
of the youths, so he runs, with his broken somethingorother and the bump on
the back of the head, and ducks into the school entrance nearly 200yds away.
Note that, if they had turned *left* into Sharrow Lane from Sharrow Street,
the distance would be more like 350-400yds.


> ... but with a
> sore back and leg they caught me outside the caretakers office ...

Sore leg, presumably from being hit on the side by the car. And a sore back.
Dunno where he got that from - he was clubbed on the back of the *head*.


I stand to be corrected, but I suspect this particular tale has more holes
than a fishing net.

[Bertie Wiggins]

On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 00:01:11 -0000, "Martin Bulmer"
> wrote:

>This sounds fake. Is there any newspaper report of it? This sounds like an
>attempt to stir up anti-Asian feelings.
>Just my 2p'orth.

Those were my initial thoughts too.

[ian henden]

"Jon Senior" <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOT_co_DOT_uk> wrote in message
...
> John wrote:
>> I've just been reading a cyclists account of being attacked in Sheffield,
>> and it was quite upsetting.
>>
>> http://www.ctcforum.org.uk/MesReplist.aspx?bcid=7&id=20895

A truly disgusting sequence of events.... one respondent mentions "
attempted murder" and I would agree....


>>
>> What is the world (Britain) coming too? Sorry if this has been posted
>> before.
>
> Jesus! The thing that really wound me up was the audience. They just stood
> and watched. If no-one even said anything to the attacker then in my eyes,
> that's aiding and abetting! Block his car in with another then call the
> police (Assuming the preferred option of finding a bigger stick and
> hitting him until he forgets his name isn't available!).
>
> It does bring home painfully the dangers of talking to aggressive / stupid
> drivers. Of course... if no-one does then there is even less of a check on
> their behaviour.

It's not aggressive "drivers" .... its aggressive *people*. A sad reflection
on todays society.

You are just as likely to meet an aggressivecyclist, as an aggressive car
driver or an aggressive pedestrian, etc. What they are driving has little
to actually do with the drivers mentality. Even most 4 x 4 s are driven by
sensible level headed people. And not *all* cyclists are paragons of
virtue.

[ian henden]

"John" > wrote in message
...
>
> I've just been reading a cyclists account of being attacked in Sheffield,
> and it was quite upsetting.
>
> http://www.ctcforum.org.uk/MesReplist.aspx?bcid=7&id=20895
>
> What is the world (Britain) coming too? Sorry if this has been posted
> before.
>
Some years ago a motorist did a "cut you up" stop in front of my bus and
physically attacked me for some slight he felt I had inflicted on him (I
don't know whether I had or not, if I had indeed done so, it was
inadvertent).

But it wasn't the wisest thing for him to to do - to thump me whilst the
bus was in gear, my foot on clutch and brake, his car in front... with a
fairly fast idling engine.... with a bus which, in those days, had a steel
front, and not a plastic one...

Luckily his car stopped any escalation of the damage to innocent parties
:o)

[Simon Brooke]

in message >, garryb59
') wrote:

> On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 20:10:27 +0000, Simon Brooke
> > wrote:
>
>>in message >, garryb59
') wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 16:40:24 +0000 (UTC), "Adam Lea"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>> Am I the only one who thinks that this incident has bugger all to do
>>> with the woes of cycling and everything to do with race hate?
>>
>>Probably, although the race of the original attacker isn't reported.
>
> Simon [or anybody else for that matter], just out of interest, given
> that all the motorists behaved so dreadfully, what would you have done
> to help that cyclist from sustaining injury in the manner and time in
> which he did?

That's a good question. I wasn't in the situation. Actually I think it is
psychologically pretty difficult thing to do to get out of your
relatively protected car to put yourself in harms way, so I suspect
that, if I was on a bike, I'd be more likely to get involved than if I
were driving a car. This is just yet another way that the motor car
atomicises society.

What I hope I'd do is what I have done in pub brawls in the past, which
is to just get in the way, facing the more aggressive party, and tried
to talk him out of it. It takes a lot of courage but I haven't yet been
hit doing it. It helps that I'm tall and that, being in a remote rural
area, I tend to be recognised.

But I'm getting older and probably more cautious, and I'm not sure I'd
have the guts now to face down a stranger with a weapon. That doesn't
alter the fact that I think we have a moral and a social duty to do so.

I should also mention that I know some quite small women who've done
exactly the same thing. Force of personality does work.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

-- mens vacua in medio vacuo --

[[email protected]]

>> The account seems to give many details that could be confirmed or
>> refuted by locals; I am sufficiently naive to believe this occurred.

>Can't see any sign of it on...

http://www.southyorks.police.uk/news/

I agree, but that website seems not to be updated at weekends (the
alleged incident happened on a Friday, daytime). Searching Google news
and using the links supplied at BBC (ie Sheffield Today and Look Local)
gives no reports either. Pedalpushers site simply isn't updated often
enough to carry this. It's looking like a fake - if there are no
corroborative sources by the end of the day, then it definitely is.

[Simon Brooke]

in message >, Wally
') wrote:

> What, exactly, is a "sawn off golf iron"? One with the head cut off,
> leaving a thin-walled, narrow tube with a rubber handle? Consider: if
> it's *sawn off*, all it really is a golf club shaft and a handle - from
> which there is no real way to determine if it was a driver or an iron.

You assume it was the heavy head that was removed, leaving only the
shaft. I would guess part of the shaft had been removed, leaving a
hammer-like weapon.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; all in all you're just another click in the call
;; -- Minke Bouyed

[Wally]

Simon Brooke wrote:

> You assume it was the heavy head that was removed, leaving only the
> shaft. I would guess part of the shaft had been removed, leaving a
> hammer-like weapon.

I would guess that the entire story is a fabrcation. Everybody calls them
golf *clubs*, unless they're actually on a course and about to swing one. If
nothing else, there seem to be a few curious time-slips, like the bit where
he's dicing with the driver on Sharrow Lane at one instant, and ducking into
the school entrance 200-400yds away the next (grabbing a piece of paper from
a terrified woman as he does so).

This sort of thing, combined with the lack of any corroboratve evidence,
makes the story very suspect. It doesn't wash.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

[Wally]

wrote:

>> Can't see any sign of it on...
> http://www.southyorks.police.uk/news/

> I agree, but that website seems not to be updated at weekends (the
> alleged incident happened on a Friday, daytime).

The article states that the incident happened on the morning of Wednesday
the 7th. As of last night, the South Yorks Police site already had stuff
dated the 9th. The article was posted to the link first given here on the
morning of the 11th, after it had already been (allegedly) posted to the
Pedal Pushers forum and 'sparked a debate'.


> Searching Google news
> and using the links supplied at BBC (ie Sheffield Today and Look
> Local) gives no reports either. Pedalpushers site simply isn't
> updated often enough to carry this. It's looking like a fake - if
> there are no corroborative sources by the end of the day, then it
> definitely is.

By last night, the story was already over four days old - if there was nowt
by then, there probably won't be anything until it goes to court (which, I
suspect, it won't, because I think it didn't happen).


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

[Wally]

Wally wrote:

> The article was posted to the link
> first given here on the morning of the 11th,

Correction: posted just after 11am on the 9th.

[iakobski]

>> dont tap on the window, buy one of these:
>> BIKETRAX Air Zound horn and blow them out of the way

I had a froghorn many years ago. Used it once when someone was using
their car to push me left. After they got over the "what was that"
reaction, they then drove into the back of me on purpose.

[iakobski]

There's a well-known poster (bobmick) over on C+ forums who claims to
know Alan and confirms the story.

[Alistair Gunn]

garryb59 twisted the electrons to say:
> Ok. So, how long is it going to take you to pick up your phone, dial
> 999 and 'report' the accident. 'Seconds', you might say. 'Seconds'???

Well, you could always do the shouting bit first and do the calling
afterwards! <grins>

> Ok. These are the actions of a responsible citizen, but in reality, in
> terms of how it helps the cyclist in the time window available to you,
> it's no different to the woman sitting in the car getting the
> registration of psychos vehicle - it doesn't.

Well you either attack the psycho or you don't. Any option that doesn't
attack him is by that criteria isn't helping the cyclist. I'd like to
think if I'd been passing on my 'bent, that I would've applied my d-lock
to the back of the psycho's head until he stopped moving ... (and if
I'd been on an upwrong I would've cycled off at that point to try and
ensure theat the CPS didn't come after me!).
--
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...

[Ambrose Nankivell]

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
> "Ambrose Nankivell" >typed
>
>> The quote of "Get the white *******" sounds unrealistic to me, too.
>> And IIRC, the area doesn't strike me as being the kind of place
>> where there's a large enough asian population for violence against
>> whites to be likely.
>
> Do you know Sharrow then?

Not especially well. My last girlfriend was living there for a year, but
slightly more studentily placed (west, and closer to the Eccleshall Rd) than
where the alleged attack took place. I don't remember ever feeling like I
didn't want to walk around, and I don't remember noticing that many people
were Asian. Anyway, that wasn't the main reason I thought it unlikely.

> Asian gangs have killed white people on racial grounds elsewhere. It
> could easily happen here (Brent). I don't see why it can't happen in
> Sharrow.

It's possible, but the mouthy lads round here who get themselves ASBOs are
nowhere to be seen before 12 noon, and the event is described as happening
in a morning commute. It just all rang false to me, anyway.

--
Ambrose

[Wally]

iakobski wrote:
> There's a well-known poster (bobmick) over on C+ forums who claims to
> know Alan and confirms the story.

LIS, I stand to be corrected, but there are some odd aspects to the story.
At the very least, it sounds like an outrageous-enough situation for it to
be in the press and on the police web site.

I just phoned Sharrow Junior School and they say there was no such incident.
I also phoned another nearby school, and they refused to give me any
information one way or the other. The second school is roughly the same
distance from the junction that the car orginally stopped at, and that still
leaves me wondering about the time-slip between to-ing and fro-ing with the
driver, the scared woman walking up and trying to give the cyclist a bit of
paper, and him suddenly realising that the asian youths aren't friendly and
ducking into the school entrance (a good 200m or more away).


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

[Wally]

iakobski wrote:
> There's a well-known poster (bobmick) over on C+ forums who claims to
> know Alan and confirms the story.

Bobmick wrote, on the evening of the 10th (three days after the incident)...

-----------------------------------------
I know Alan (the guy who was attacked and beaten) quite well as a fellow
member of the Sheffield Cycle Campaign group and someone who I meet
regularly on my commute. He's a kind and gentle bloke who would never
provoke this sort of criminal behaviour. I cycle through that area/street
almost daily and although it has a bit of a dodgy reputation I've never been
that worried. However, following Alan's encounter with the psycho in a car
and the disgusting racist attack that followed I think I'll avoid it. Its
also confirmed to me that the best response to aggressive driving is to rise
above it and just give them a smile and a wave when you pass at the next
jam. Having said that, even this might have been seen as intimidatory by the
nutter in Alan's case.

I don't think he reads/contributes to this forum but I'm sure he'll be
heartened by all the good wishes. We all hope he's back on the bike soon.

-----------------------------------------

He says he knows Alan quite well, but he hasn't stated that he has spoken to
him since the incident. This post from the C+ forum is *not* a confirmation
of the story.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

[Peter B]

"Adam Lea" > wrote in message
...
> How exactly do you stop a enraged psychopath wielding a golfing iron and
> who's not afraid to use it?

Quite.
If the psycho were attacking a loved one then I think a lot of force would
be used and buggar the consequences but if they are attacking a stranger
then the consequences of acting in a similar manner can't be dismissed so
easily, especially if your loved ones have to live with the aftermath.
--
Pete
/Stuff

[Al C-F]

Wally wrote:
> Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
>
>
>>The account seems to give many details that could be confirmed or
>>refuted by locals; I am sufficiently naive to believe this occurred.
>
>
> Can't see any sign of it on...
>
> http://www.southyorks.police.uk/news/
>
>
Why would you? He was /only/ a cyclist.

[Matt B]

Al C-F wrote:
> Wally wrote:
>
>> Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
>>
>>
>>> The account seems to give many details that could be confirmed or
>>> refuted by locals; I am sufficiently naive to believe this occurred.
>>
>>
>>
>> Can't see any sign of it on...
>>
>> http://www.southyorks.police.uk/news/
>>
>>
> Why would you? He was /only/ a cyclist.

This one about a cyclist was there:
http://www.southyorks.police.uk/news/details.php?id=1829

--
Matt B

[Al C-F]

Matt B wrote:
> Al C-F wrote:
>
>> Wally wrote:
>>
>>> Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> The account seems to give many details that could be confirmed or
>>>> refuted by locals; I am sufficiently naive to believe this occurred.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Can't see any sign of it on...
>>>
>>> http://www.southyorks.police.uk/news/
>>>
>>>
>> Why would you? He was /only/ a cyclist.
>
>
> This one about a cyclist was there:
> http://www.southyorks.police.uk/news/details.php?id=1829

But that's an evil bag-snatching cyclist. Cyclists can never, of
course, be victims.

[Wally]

Al C-F wrote:

>> Can't see any sign of it on...
>> http://www.southyorks.police.uk/news/

> Why would you? He was /only/ a cyclist.

Oh!

Right!

**** him, then!

Or does that only happen in your little universe?


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

[vernon]

> >This sounds fake. Is there any newspaper report of it? This sounds like
an
> >attempt to stir up anti-Asian feelings.
> >Just my 2p'orth.
>
But cyclists are too civilised and accommodating to allow racist thoughts to
enter their heads.

If the objective was to generate anti-asian sentiments then some sort of
chav forum would have been more appropriate.

[[email protected]]

vernon wrote:
> > >This sounds fake. Is there any newspaper report of it? This sounds like
> an
> > >attempt to stir up anti-Asian feelings.
> > >Just my 2p'orth.
> >
> But cyclists are too civilised and accommodating to allow racist thoughts to
> enter their heads.
>
> If the objective was to generate anti-asian sentiments then some sort of
> chav forum would have been more appropriate.

So it is a fake account then? Seems awfully complicated for that.

[bobmick]

I've been made aware of this discussion via the cycling plus forum and
am disturbed by the conspiracy theories put forward by some that Alan
has made this up and/or it is a racist wind up. I have not met Alan
since the attack and obviously was not there at the time but the
communications that followed it leave one in absolutely no doubt that
it did happen. Just to clarify a few of the doubts raised:

Sharrow Lane is often extremely both ways in the morning (it's a bit
of a rat run when London Road is busy).

Alan would have cut across both lanes of traffic to do a quick
left-right from Sharrow Street onto Sitwell Road/Place (the
continuation of the cycle route he follows). The car managed to get
through the traffic and follow him.

The school was actually Sharrow infants on Sitwell Road and not South
View Road - this is close to where the initial incident took place.
Do you really believe that a school would discuss this sort of
information with any Tom, Dick or Harry that phoned them? No,
obviously not.

One particular poster here (Wally) mentioned that Alan had broken
something. Alan had never said anything of the sort. Wally - was
that inserted to try and support your conspiracy theory??

It is my understanding that the police are taking this incident very
seriously.

There is nothing wrong with healthy scepticism but the extent to which
some of you are trying to unpick this report is beyond belief. Alan
deserves sympathy not crass accusations of lying/racism. Maybe the
doubters here are big enough to come back and offer apologies.

Rob

[John B]

bobmick wrote:

> I've been made aware of this discussion via the cycling plus forum and
> am disturbed by the conspiracy theories put forward by some that Alan
> has made this up and/or it is a racist wind up.

<snip>

> There is nothing wrong with healthy scepticism but the extent to which
> some of you are trying to unpick this report is beyond belief. Alan
> deserves sympathy not crass accusations of lying/racism. Maybe the
> doubters here are big enough to come back and offer apologies.

Well said. I have found it incredible that some doubters cite the lack of
a press report as evidence of a fake incident.

Since when has the press been such a credible source of information?

John B

[[email protected]]

John B wrote:
> bobmick wrote:
>
> > I've been made aware of this discussion via the cycling plus forum and
> > am disturbed by the conspiracy theories put forward by some that Alan
> > has made this up and/or it is a racist wind up.
>
> <snip>
>
> > There is nothing wrong with healthy scepticism but the extent to which
> > some of you are trying to unpick this report is beyond belief. Alan
> > deserves sympathy not crass accusations of lying/racism. Maybe the
> > doubters here are big enough to come back and offer apologies.
>
> Well said. I have found it incredible that some doubters cite the lack of
> a press report as evidence of a fake incident.
>
> Since when has the press been such a credible source of information?


Awfully quiet here, isn't it?

It could be cognitive dissonance:-
http://www.learningandteaching.info/learning/dissonance.htm

I suffer from it sometimes, as when I had to accept eventually that the
police had mistakenly shot an innocent bloke in July. Anyway, don't
worry, they'll come round.

[[email protected]]

Honest, they will, they will, they will.

It just takes time.

Tumm-tee-tumm, tee-tumm, tee-tumm. Yawnnnn, is it that time alreadY?

[Wally]

bobmick wrote:

> Sharrow Lane is often extremely both ways in the morning (it's a bit
> of a rat run when London Road is busy).
>
> Alan would have cut across both lanes of traffic to do a quick
> left-right from Sharrow Street onto Sitwell Road/Place (the
> continuation of the cycle route he follows). The car managed to get
> through the traffic and follow him.

Thanks for clarifying this aspect.


> The school was actually Sharrow infants on Sitwell Road and not South
> View Road ...

Sharrow Nursery Infant School, to be precise. Alan's report *specifically
states* that he ran into the entrance of Sharrow Junior School, which is on
South View Road.


> One particular poster here (Wally) mentioned that Alan had broken
> something. Alan had never said anything of the sort. Wally - was
> that inserted to try and support your conspiracy theory??

Sure. Why not? You seem to have decided to form a particular opinion about
me, so it's your choice if you want to maintain it.


> It is my understanding that the police are taking this incident very
> seriously.

And so they should.


> There is nothing wrong with healthy scepticism but the extent to which
> some of you are trying to unpick this report is beyond belief.

The devil is in the details. If you don't like the depth to which I chose to
analyse it, then that's your problem. I suggest you take a moment to step
aside from your emotive involvement with the incident (you know the guy, you
cycle in that area) and try to look at it with a clear head. You seem to
advocate that that this report be accepted on face value, yet the story is
inconsistent within itself, contains parts where an injured man runs
distances that are arguably implausible, has at least one verified factual
inaccuracy, and lacks published corroboration.


> Alan deserves sympathy not crass accusations of lying/racism.

I didn't accuse him of lying or racism - if you think I did, then quote the
relevant material. Has it not occurred to you that, if someone was seeking
to foment racist hatred, then it wouldn't be too hard to post using somene
else's name to lend the report an air of authenticity?

Further, what if it was indeed an attempt to foment racist hatred? Do you
think everyone should just sit and uncritically accept everything that
passes across their screens? There *are* holes in the story as given - he
didn't run into the school that he claimed he did, he said he was struck on
the back of the head, but later had a sore back, for such a detailed report,
there was little reason to suppopse that the incident had happened something
like 100m from the junction where he tapped the car's window.


> Maybe the
> doubters here are big enough to come back and offer apologies.


Apologies for what? Criticising an inconsistent story for which no
corroboration could be found until you piped up? My response is this:

I stand corrected.

Good luck to Alan and all the best for a speedy recovery.

[Jon Senior]

John B wrote:
> Well said. I have found it incredible that some doubters cite the lack of
> a press report as evidence of a fake incident.
>
> Since when has the press been such a credible source of information?

Since a story which included a racist attack on a white man didn't make
the front page of either the Sun or the Daily Wail! You don't find the
lack of requests / press releases on the South Yorks. Police website a
little strange? Given the magnitude of the crime and their habit of
reporting almost everything else.

Jon

[Jon Senior]

wrote:
> Awfully quiet here, isn't it?

Is it?

Nothing has yet changed. Had bobmick claimed to have met up with Alan
post-accident and was thus corroborating the story (To some extent), I'd
see more reason for profuse apology. As Wally has mentioned, it would be
trivial to have posted under a false name in order to either a) troll b)
stir up racist feeling.

> It could be cognitive dissonance:-
> http://www.learningandteaching.info/learning/dissonance.htm
>
> I suffer from it sometimes, as when I had to accept eventually that the
> police had mistakenly shot an innocent bloke in July. Anyway, don't
> worry, they'll come round.

.... You actually thought at any point that they hadn't? Wow! ;-)

Jon

[Jon Senior]

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
> Do you know Sharrow then?

I don't, having lived in various other parts of Sheffield, but my
impression of the city as a whole (In the four years I lived there) was
that it was reasonably well racially integrated. Something I always
suspected to be related to the universally high poverty level.

Jon

[[email protected]]

Wally wrote:
> bobmick wrote:
>
> > Sharrow Lane is often extremely both ways in the morning (it's a bit
> > of a rat run when London Road is busy).
> >
> > Alan would have cut across both lanes of traffic to do a quick
> > left-right from Sharrow Street onto Sitwell Road/Place (the
> > continuation of the cycle route he follows). The car managed to get
> > through the traffic and follow him.
>
> Thanks for clarifying this aspect.
>
>
> > The school was actually Sharrow infants on Sitwell Road and not South
> > View Road ...
>
> Sharrow Nursery Infant School, to be precise. Alan's report *specifically
> states* that he ran into the entrance of Sharrow Junior School, which is on
> South View Road.
>
>
> > One particular poster here (Wally) mentioned that Alan had broken
> > something. Alan had never said anything of the sort. Wally - was
> > that inserted to try and support your conspiracy theory??
>
> Sure. Why not? You seem to have decided to form a particular opinion about
> me, so it's your choice if you want to maintain it.
>
>
> > It is my understanding that the police are taking this incident very
> > seriously.
>
> And so they should.
>
>
> > There is nothing wrong with healthy scepticism but the extent to which
> > some of you are trying to unpick this report is beyond belief.
>
> The devil is in the details. If you don't like the depth to which I chose to
> analyse it, then that's your problem. I suggest you take a moment to step
> aside from your emotive involvement with the incident (you know the guy, you
> cycle in that area) and try to look at it with a clear head. You seem to
> advocate that that this report be accepted on face value, yet the story is
> inconsistent within itself, contains parts where an injured man runs
> distances that are arguably implausible, has at least one verified factual
> inaccuracy, and lacks published corroboration.
>
>
> > Alan deserves sympathy not crass accusations of lying/racism.
>
> I didn't accuse him of lying or racism - if you think I did, then quote the
> relevant material. Has it not occurred to you that, if someone was seeking
> to foment racist hatred, then it wouldn't be too hard to post using somene
> else's name to lend the report an air of authenticity?
>
> Further, what if it was indeed an attempt to foment racist hatred? Do you
> think everyone should just sit and uncritically accept everything that
> passes across their screens? There *are* holes in the story as given - he
> didn't run into the school that he claimed he did, he said he was struck on
> the back of the head, but later had a sore back, for such a detailed report,
> there was little reason to suppopse that the incident had happened something
> like 100m from the junction where he tapped the car's window.
>
>
> > Maybe the
> > doubters here are big enough to come back and offer apologies.
>
>
> Apologies for what? Criticising an inconsistent story for which no
> corroboration could be found until you piped up? My response is this:
>
> I stand corrected.
>
> Good luck to Alan and all the best for a speedy recovery.


Well, isn't that nice? I said that they'd come round. It's a bighearted
group.

Squashme


I stand to be corrected, but I suspect this particular tale has more
holes
than a fishing net.
--
Wally

This sort of thing, combined with the lack of any corroboratve
evidence,
makes the story very suspect. It doesn't wash.
--
Wally

By last night, the story was already over four days old - if there was
nowt
by then, there probably won't be anything until it goes to court
(which, I
suspect, it won't, because I think it didn't happen).
--
Wally

LIS, I stand to be corrected, but there are some odd aspects to the
story.
At the very least, it sounds like an outrageous-enough situation for it
to
be in the press and on the police web site.
--
Wally

[[email protected]]

Jon Senior wrote:
> wrote:
> > Awfully quiet here, isn't it?
>
> Is it?
>
> Nothing has yet changed. Had bobmick claimed to have met up with Alan
> post-accident and was thus corroborating the story (To some extent), I'd
> see more reason for profuse apology. As Wally has mentioned, it would be
> trivial to have posted under a false name in order to either a) troll b)
> stir up racist feeling.

So Bobmick could be a plant, and probably John B? And the bloke called
Alan, who made all those mistakes about the (alleged) assault on him,
he doesn't exist, perhaps? Oh no, I'm unreal too. I'm melting!

"But being a liberal means never having to worry about the facts. Facts
can be uncomfortable, and of course, anything that makes anyone
uncomfortable is a violation of our constitutional rights. The only
fact that matters is the foundational fact that you can only feel what
is right, so if a fact happens to contradict your feelings, obviously
that fact must be wrong. Sentio, ergo rectum." (Google for source
if you wish)

>
> > It could be cognitive dissonance:-
> > http://www.learningandteaching.info/learning/dissonance.htm
> >
> > I suffer from it sometimes, as when I had to accept eventually that the
> > police had mistakenly shot an innocent bloke in July. Anyway, don't
> > worry, they'll come round.
>
> ... You actually thought at any point that they hadn't? Wow! ;-)
>

Gosh, you're clever. As soon as the shooting was announced you just
knew that it was a mistake, did you? What was it, a feeling in your
water or what? I just felt sick at heart.

[bobmick]

> > The school was actually Sharrow infants on Sitwell Road and not South
> > View Road ...
>
> Sharrow Nursery Infant School, to be precise. Alan's report *specifically
> states* that he ran into the entrance of Sharrow Junior School, which is on
> South View Road.

Indeed it did. Alan's report on the CTC site was cut and pasted from
his original post to the Pedal Pushers discussion list. A later email
made it clear that it was Sharrow NI when he asked to convey thanks to
anyone who worked there and helped him. Its clearly easy to make a
mistake like this when you are shook up and I'm glad I've been able to
clarify it. We should be confident that the officer who took his
formal statement will have taken the time to ensure that no such
inaccuracies were present.


> > One particular poster here (Wally) mentioned that Alan had broken
> > something. Alan had never said anything of the sort. Wally - was
> > that inserted to try and support your conspiracy theory??
>
> Sure. Why not? You seem to have decided to form a particular opinion about
> me, so it's your choice if you want to maintain it.

I have no opinion of you one way or the other. It would be grossly
unfair to have reached one having read your contributions to only one
thread. What I do have a problem with is the introduction of
inaccuracies that (wilfuly or not) bias any so called examination of
the report. This sort of thing is certainly at variance with any claim
to analyse the report critically or fairly.


> > Alan deserves sympathy not crass accusations of lying/racism.
>
> I didn't accuse him of lying or racism - if you think I did, then quote the
> relevant material. Has it not occurred to you that, if someone was seeking
> to foment racist hatred, then it wouldn't be too hard to post using somene
> else's name to lend the report an air of authenticity?

No you definitely didn't make those accusations. It was another poster
(or posters?) who suggested that this sounded like an attempt to stir
up anti-asian feelings.


> Do you think everyone should just sit and uncritically accept everything that
> passes across their screens?

Of course not, and I agree wholeheartedly that it is too easy to take
reports at face value. Nothing wrong with *fair* critical examination
and I made this clear in my post. It was simply my concern that, in my
opinion, the criticism was not balanced.


> > Maybe the
> > doubters here are big enough to come back and offer apologies.
>
> Apologies for what? Criticising an inconsistent story for which no
> corroboration could be found until you piped up?

OK. No need to apologise for being critical. There are contact
details on our website (Pedal Pushers) and it would have been quite
easy to get in touch with us to query the reports. Far more likely to
get a response than from the local schools or police. I'm happy that
I've been able to respond and clear a few things up.


> My response is this:
>
> I stand corrected.
>
> Good luck to Alan and all the best for a speedy recovery.

Thank you. I'll pass this on.

Rob

[Russell Fulker]

bobmick wrote:

> One particular poster here (Wally) mentioned that Alan had broken
> something. Alan had never said anything of the sort. Wally - was
> that inserted to try and support your conspiracy theory??

The report said, "I heard the car rev behind me and... rammed into the
side of me. I just felt a crunching sound".

I think Wally, not unreasonably, assumed this was a bone.

[Jon Senior]

wrote:
> So Bobmick could be a plant, and probably John B? And the bloke called
> Alan, who made all those mistakes about the (alleged) assault on him,
> he doesn't exist, perhaps? Oh no, I'm unreal too. I'm melting!

No. Bobmick could be entirely genuine, and genuinely backing up the
statements of someone he believes in Alan. It could be that he doesn't
know Alan as well as he thinks. It couldn't even be that he hasn't
spoken to Alan since the attack, and thus can't offer any genuine
confirmation.

> "But being a liberal means never having to worry about the facts. Facts
> can be uncomfortable, and of course, anything that makes anyone
> uncomfortable is a violation of our constitutional rights. The only
> fact that matters is the foundational fact that you can only feel what
> is right, so if a fact happens to contradict your feelings, obviously
> that fact must be wrong. Sentio, ergo rectum." (Google for source
> if you wish)

Vox Day. Great. He is however arguing about liberalism which has a
wholly different meaning on t'other side of the pond. If you read my
original post on this thread, you'll see that I took the report at face
value. The points made by various people are valid. It does seem a
little strange that during a period of increased racial unrest, an all
out racist attack does not appear to have made the press... anywhere...
including the website of the local police force (Who seem to report
other more trivial events).

I'm saying that the event did not take place. Just that it does seem
odd, and lacking in supporting evidence.

> Gosh, you're clever. As soon as the shooting was announced you just
> knew that it was a mistake, did you? What was it, a feeling in your
> water or what? I just felt sick at heart.

No. But I had a very strong feeling that it would turn out to be another
blunder. Let's face it, the British armed police don't have a cracking
track record when it comes to killing innocents. And they're pretty good
at trying (And failing) to cover up afterwards. I trust the average
copper about as far as I can throw him (And the average copper is pretty
heavy!). As a consequence I apply the modern British legal maxim (Guilty
until we have to concede innocence) to most incidents where the police
are involved.

Jon

[ian henden]

> wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> Jon Senior wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > Awfully quiet here, isn't it?
>>
>> Is it?
>>
>> Nothing has yet changed. Had bobmick claimed to have met up with Alan
>> post-accident and was thus corroborating the story (To some extent), I'd
>> see more reason for profuse apology. As Wally has mentioned, it would be
>> trivial to have posted under a false name in order to either a) troll b)
>> stir up racist feeling.
>
> So Bobmick could be a plant, and probably John B?

Dunno about Bobmick, but I have a gut feeling his account is kosher.

John B? Absolutely kosher (just occassionally misguided)

...... and I'm not a cyclophile!!!

I reckon a number of you need to add a dollop of humble pie to your
Christmas menus.....

:o)

--
IanH

[Simon Brooke]

in message >, Wally
') wrote:

> You seem to
> advocate that that this report be accepted on face value, yet the story
> is inconsistent within itself, contains parts where an injured man runs
> distances that are arguably implausible, has at least one verified
> factual inaccuracy, and lacks published corroboration.

That's life. You try to give an internally consistent account of
something that happened when you were very, very excited or frightened.

F'r'n'zample, when I wrote this
<URL:http://www.jasmine.org.uk/dogfood/story/article_30.html> I wrote
that Andrew had patched my tyre. He read it and said that he had done
nothing so practical. I did not mean to write an untruth; I wrote what I
recalled. But what you recall of when you're literally shaking with
adrenaline is not necessarily accurate.

And, you know, there's a whole lot of details of that incident I simply
don't remember (and didn't even the next day), although I was not
concussed. Shock and adrenaline do funny things to you.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; If you're doing this for fun, do what seems fun. If you're
;; doing it for money, stop now.
;; Rainer Deyke

[[email protected]]

Jon Senior wrote:

> wrote:
> > So Bobmick could be a plant, and probably John B? And the bloke called
> > Alan, who made all those mistakes about the (alleged) assault on him,
> > he doesn't exist, perhaps? Oh no, I'm unreal too. I'm melting!
>
> No. Bobmick could be entirely genuine, and genuinely backing up the
> statements of someone he believes in Alan. It could be that he doesn't
> know Alan as well as he thinks. It couldn't even be that he hasn't
> spoken to Alan since the attack, and thus can't offer any genuine
> confirmation.

Strange and unusual amount of denial regarding this account. Generally
people seem to accept stories of bad behaviour by motorists,
pedestrians, and even cyclists, without this much flak. I wonder why.
>
> > "But being a liberal means never having to worry about the facts. Facts
> > can be uncomfortable, and of course, anything that makes anyone
> > uncomfortable is a violation of our constitutional rights. The only
> > fact that matters is the foundational fact that you can only feel what
> > is right, so if a fact happens to contradict your feelings, obviously
> > that fact must be wrong. Sentio, ergo rectum." (Google for source
> > if you wish)
>
> Vox Day. Great. He is however arguing about liberalism which has a
> wholly different meaning on t'other side of the pond. If you read my
> original post on this thread, you'll see that I took the report at face
> value. The points made by various people are valid. It does seem a
> little strange that during a period of increased racial unrest, an all
> out racist attack does not appear to have made the press... anywhere...
> including the website of the local police force (Who seem to report
> other more trivial events).

Perhaps the police are trying to prevent an escalation of violence in
the area. Especially if the driver who started it all turns out to be
the same race as the gang. So it could be a good idea to proceed
quietly.

>
> I'm saying that the event did not take place. Just that it does seem
> odd, and lacking in supporting evidence.
>
> > Gosh, you're clever. As soon as the shooting was announced you just
> > knew that it was a mistake, did you? What was it, a feeling in your
> > water or what? I just felt sick at heart.
>
> No. But I had a very strong feeling that it would turn out to be another
> blunder.

A stong feeling, well, that's almost as good as knowledge.

Let's face it, the British armed police don't have a cracking
> track record when it comes to killing innocents.

Nor do the Royal Air Force or the British Army. Sigh. I wonder why we
bother.

And they're pretty good
> at trying (And failing) to cover up afterwards. I trust the average
> copper about as far as I can throw him (And the average copper is pretty
> heavy!). As a consequence I apply the modern British legal maxim (Guilty
> until we have to concede innocence) to most incidents where the police
> are involved.

Ah, the OK prejudice! Safer than racial prejudice. Round here we have
an awful lot of white South Africans (lot of awful white South
Africans). Its OK to complain about them too. I do certainly. I expect
that you have suffered a lot from police oppression, as a motorist.
Them as feels it, knows it.

[[email protected]]

Simon Brooke wrote:
> in message >, Wally
> ') wrote:
>
> > You seem to
> > advocate that that this report be accepted on face value, yet the story
> > is inconsistent within itself, contains parts where an injured man runs
> > distances that are arguably implausible, has at least one verified
> > factual inaccuracy, and lacks published corroboration.
>
> That's life. You try to give an internally consistent account of
> something that happened when you were very, very excited or frightened.
>
> F'r'n'zample, when I wrote this
> <URL:http://www.jasmine.org.uk/dogfood/story/article_30.html> I wrote
> that Andrew had patched my tyre. He read it and said that he had done
> nothing so practical. I did not mean to write an untruth; I wrote what I
> recalled. But what you recall of when you're literally shaking with
> adrenaline is not necessarily accurate.
>
> And, you know, there's a whole lot of details of that incident I simply
> don't remember (and didn't even the next day), although I was not
> concussed. Shock and adrenaline do funny things to you.
>

Thank you for your interesting and frightening account. Might I just
add, as an afterthought, that "Speed kills". Being a youngster, you've
probably not heard that one.

[Wally]

Simon Brooke wrote:

> That's life. You try to give an internally consistent account of
> something that happened when you were very, very excited or
> frightened.
>
> F'r'n'zample, when I wrote this
> <URL:http://www.jasmine.org.uk/dogfood/story/article_30.html> I wrote
> that Andrew had patched my tyre. He read it and said that he had done
> nothing so practical. I did not mean to write an untruth; I wrote
> what I recalled. But what you recall of when you're literally shaking
> with adrenaline is not necessarily accurate.
>
> And, you know, there's a whole lot of details of that incident I
> simply don't remember (and didn't even the next day), although I was
> not concussed. Shock and adrenaline do funny things to you.

I guess people are just different. When I've been through something
unpleasant, I generally tend to have very good recall (amazing
second-by-second detail in places). When I recount, I'm very specific about
which bits I *cannot* remember. When I read a detailed account of the events
leading up to and during two assaults on the same person, and he says that
he passes a car at a junction, passes along two lines of stationary traffic,
gets rammed, belted on the back of the noggin, and then does a runner from
some dodgy youths, I see no reason to assume that he actually did a
left-right and *crossed* the gridlocked street, and then cycled something
like another 100m before the altercations started.

I certainly don't start from the position that it must all be true, and that
any inconsistencies must be the result of the victim not quite having his
head together after a scary experience. If one does that, then one is open
to believing any old nonsense, and to filling in the gaps with whatever
fantasy suits. Moreover, the more inconsistencies there are, the harder it
becomes to take the story on board.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

[Jon Senior]

wrote:
> Strange and unusual amount of denial regarding this account. Generally
> people seem to accept stories of bad behaviour by motorists,
> pedestrians, and even cyclists, without this much flak. I wonder why.

Bad behaviour by motorists is generally limited to bad driving. I've
encountered a great deal of badly behaved motorists, but only once had
one even start to leave his car. It's a different person who climbs out
of the car, brings a (pre-meditated) weapon with them and lays into the
victim.

> Perhaps the police are trying to prevent an escalation of violence in
> the area. Especially if the driver who started it all turns out to be
> the same race as the gang. So it could be a good idea to proceed
> quietly.

But the account described a gang of Asian youths, and a driver. Since
the ethnicity of the youths was mentioned, one would (reasonably) expect
that of the driver to be considered relevant as well.

> A stong feeling, well, that's almost as good as knowledge.

Far from it. But I never believed that they had done right. Just that
from past experience they might have screwed up. And events turned out
to follow that hypothesis.

> Nor do the Royal Air Force or the British Army. Sigh. I wonder why we
> bother.

I have little love for the military in general, but they do at least
have the excuse (some of the time) of being under fire. It takes a
certain degree of incompetence to (After keeping a house under
surveillance) tail the wrong person on and off a bus (The bombers blew
up a bus as well) and then decide to chase them into the underground,
before opening fire, or even making their presence known.

> Ah, the OK prejudice! Safer than racial prejudice. Round here we have
> an awful lot of white South Africans (lot of awful white South
> Africans). Its OK to complain about them too.

I doubt very much that the situation in the UK is as bad as South Africa
has been (And may still be), but it is telling that the great proportion
of officers of the lieuw that I see here are white... and from personal
experience, not blessed with an abundance of brain.

> I do certainly. I expect
> that you have suffered a lot from police oppression, as a motorist.
> Them as feels it, knows it.

Far worse, as a liberal, I've been on the receiving end of the
"nod-nod-wink-wink, we're the same colour and class and the person we're
discussing isn't so it's all OK really right?" attitude of the police.
Oddly enough, that left me more than a little peeved!

Jon

[Simon Brooke]

in message . com>,
') wrote:

>
> Jon Senior wrote:
>
>> wrote:
>> > So Bobmick could be a plant, and probably John B? And the bloke
>> > called Alan, who made all those mistakes about the (alleged) assault
>> > on him, he doesn't exist, perhaps? Oh no, I'm unreal too. I'm
>> > melting!
>>
>> No. Bobmick could be entirely genuine, and genuinely backing up the
>> statements of someone he believes in Alan. It could be that he doesn't
>> know Alan as well as he thinks. It couldn't even be that he hasn't
>> spoken to Alan since the attack, and thus can't offer any genuine
>> confirmation.
>
> Strange and unusual amount of denial regarding this account. Generally
> people seem to accept stories of bad behaviour by motorists,
> pedestrians, and even cyclists, without this much flak. I wonder why.

Because, if it's true, it's a very nasty story indeed - a bunch of
uninvolved third parties set on and beat an already injured man. I can
quite understand Jon (or anyone else) not wanting to believe its true. I
have to say it does ring true to me - but I wish it didn't.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other
;; languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and riffle their
;; pockets for new vocabulary -- James D. Nicoll

[iakobski]

>But the account described a gang of Asian youths, and a driver. Since
>the ethnicity of the youths was mentioned, one would (reasonably) expect
>that of the driver to be considered relevant as well.

No I don't think you would reasnoably expect that.

The attack by the gang of youths was racially motivated, they were
alleged to have said "get the white *******" - at which point it is
relevant to point out that they are Asian, not Afro-Carribean or
Chinese.

The attack by the driver was road rage, so there would be no relevance
to mentioning his ethnicity. Though it might help to make it clearer
what was motivating the gang.

[[email protected]]

Jon Senior wrote:

> Far worse, as a liberal, I've been on the receiving end of the
> "nod-nod-wink-wink, we're the same colour and class and the person we're
> discussing isn't so it's all OK really right?" attitude of the police.
> Oddly enough, that left me more than a little peeved!

The policeman assumed that you and he were of the same class! The
cheek! Yes, I have suffered from this "nod-nod -wink-wink" assumption
too. Victim counselling is available, but it takes time.

[[email protected]]

Wally wrote:
> Simon Brooke wrote:
>
> > And, you know, there's a whole lot of details of that incident I
> > simply don't remember (and didn't even the next day), although I was
> > not concussed. Shock and adrenaline do funny things to you.
>
> I guess people are just different. When I've been through something
> unpleasant, I generally tend to have very good recall (amazing
> second-by-second detail in places). When I recount, I'm very specific about
> which bits I *cannot* remember.

Perhaps this very good recall is a result of being an artist. (Or
perhaps being an artist is helped by the very good recall)

However, according to the news recently, artists also score highly in
the sexual stakes, but also in the schizophrenia stakes. I'm sticking
with being a boring low scorer.

[David Martin]

wrote:
> However, according to the news recently, artists also score highly in
> the sexual stakes, but also in the schizophrenia stakes.

Who did they think they were having sex with?

...d

[wildnorthlands]

Hello everyone.

Just to say that as one of the list-owners of the Pedal Pushers list
where this report was first posted, and a member of the Pedal Pushers
committee, I can vouch for Alan and say that we have absolutely no
reason whatsoever to disbelieve his story . None of us actually said
"We won't believe you until we see our bruises" - we've left him alone
to recover. I haven't been on u.r.c. for a few days otherwise I would
have stepped in to try to stop this ridiculous debate you've been
having.

I think Alan was just unlucky to run into a nutter - apparently the
police picked him up almost immediately so they must have a pretty good
idea who he was - and the kids who joined in were infected by a kind of
blood-lust, hopefully by now they will have realised what was really
going on and be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. I cycle this way
every day, we know its problematic & I've been called a "White *******"
myself when I've had cause to shout at kids who've walked/cycled out in
front of me.

Until now it's not bothered me, in fact I thought it was pretty crafty
as they knew I couldn't call them anything comparable back. As for why
it hasn't made the press, we certainly haven't pushed for that as we
don't want to exacerbate any tensions in the area which might lead to
another incident, and I guess as there were plenty of witnesses and the
police picked up the guy straight away they didn't see the need for a
press release. I imagine it will make the press if/when it comes to
court.

I believe Alan's making a good recovery, we wish him well and if anyone
wants to contribute towards the collection we're having for him you can
do so via the contact details on the Pedal Pushers website,
http://www.pedalpushers.org.uk/aboutus/whoweare.html.

Simon Geller
Pedal Pushers Sheffield Cycle Campaign

[[email protected]]

wildnorthlands wrote:

> Hello everyone.
>
> Just to say that as one of the list-owners of the Pedal Pushers list
> where this report was first posted, and a member of the Pedal Pushers
> committee, I can vouch for Alan and say that we have absolutely no
> reason whatsoever to disbelieve his story . None of us actually said
> "We won't believe you until we see our bruises" - we've left him alone
> to recover. I haven't been on u.r.c. for a few days otherwise I would
> have stepped in to try to stop this ridiculous debate you've been
> having.
>
> I think Alan was just unlucky to run into a nutter - apparently the
> police picked him up almost immediately so they must have a pretty good
> idea who he was - and the kids who joined in were infected by a kind of
> blood-lust, hopefully by now they will have realised what was really
> going on and be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. I cycle this way
> every day, we know its problematic & I've been called a "White *******"
> myself when I've had cause to shout at kids who've walked/cycled out in
> front of me.
>
> Until now it's not bothered me, in fact I thought it was pretty crafty
> as they knew I couldn't call them anything comparable back. As for why
> it hasn't made the press, we certainly haven't pushed for that as we
> don't want to exacerbate any tensions in the area which might lead to
> another incident, and I guess as there were plenty of witnesses and the
> police picked up the guy straight away they didn't see the need for a
> press release. I imagine it will make the press if/when it comes to
> court.
>
> I believe Alan's making a good recovery, we wish him well and if anyone
> wants to contribute towards the collection we're having for him you can
> do so via the contact details on the Pedal Pushers website,
> http://www.pedalpushers.org.uk/aboutus/whoweare.html.
>

Thanks very much. Best wishes to Alan.

[Pinky]

It is interesting that the original poster has not responded at all.

a distinct pointer to being a troll -- and too much like a fabrication.

Sorry but I just do not believe it

--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire,
England, United Kingdom.
Remove PSANTISPAM to reply
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> wildnorthlands wrote:
>
>> Hello everyone.
>>
>> Just to say that as one of the list-owners of the Pedal Pushers list
>> where this report was first posted, and a member of the Pedal Pushers
>> committee, I can vouch for Alan and say that we have absolutely no
>> reason whatsoever to disbelieve his story . None of us actually said
>> "We won't believe you until we see our bruises" - we've left him alone
>> to recover. I haven't been on u.r.c. for a few days otherwise I would
>> have stepped in to try to stop this ridiculous debate you've been
>> having.
>>
>> I think Alan was just unlucky to run into a nutter - apparently the
>> police picked him up almost immediately so they must have a pretty good
>> idea who he was - and the kids who joined in were infected by a kind of
>> blood-lust, hopefully by now they will have realised what was really
>> going on and be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. I cycle this way
>> every day, we know its problematic & I've been called a "White *******"
>> myself when I've had cause to shout at kids who've walked/cycled out in
>> front of me.
>>
>> Until now it's not bothered me, in fact I thought it was pretty crafty
>> as they knew I couldn't call them anything comparable back. As for why
>> it hasn't made the press, we certainly haven't pushed for that as we
>> don't want to exacerbate any tensions in the area which might lead to
>> another incident, and I guess as there were plenty of witnesses and the
>> police picked up the guy straight away they didn't see the need for a
>> press release. I imagine it will make the press if/when it comes to
>> court.
>>
>> I believe Alan's making a good recovery, we wish him well and if anyone
>> wants to contribute towards the collection we're having for him you can
>> do so via the contact details on the Pedal Pushers website,
>> http://www.pedalpushers.org.uk/aboutus/whoweare.html.
>>
>
> Thanks very much. Best wishes to Alan.
>

[[email protected]]

Pinky wrote:
> It is interesting that the original poster has not responded at all.
>
> a distinct pointer to being a troll -- and too much like a fabrication.
>
> Sorry but I just do not believe it
>

Trolls don't help people out with "vital dimensions of sealed bottom
brackets", do they?

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On 21 Dec 2005 12:25:36 -0800, said in
om>:

>Trolls don't help people out with "vital dimensions of sealed bottom
>brackets", do they?

Depends. I'm sure the bridge at Legoland with the troll under it is
suspended on bottom brackets. Although they might just be ordinary
bearings.

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

[the.Mark]

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> On 21 Dec 2005 12:25:36 -0800, said in
> om>:
>
>> Trolls don't help people out with "vital dimensions of sealed
>> bottom brackets", do they?
>
> Depends. I'm sure the bridge at Legoland with the troll under
> it is suspended on bottom brackets. Although they might just
> be ordinary bearings.
>
> Guy

Speaking of Legoland (Windsor), In the model of Edinburgh's Princes
Street there is a shop called S&M. I think they meant it to be M&S. At
least there was in 1999.
--
Cheers
the.Mark