Warm middle layer?

[Preston Crawford]

What's a good (hopefully cheap) warm middle layer for the winter? As
I've gotten skinnier winter has gotten more brutal. Right now we're in
the 20s. I'm thinking some kind of vest or something, to protect my
core. I already have a rain jacket (Portland, Oregon), and then a
wicking long sleeve shirt on top of another shirt, but I'm still too
cold. So any suggestions for a good, preferably inexpensive middle
layer?

Preston

[rdclark]

Preston Crawford wrote:
> What's a good (hopefully cheap) warm middle layer for the winter? As
> I've gotten skinnier winter has gotten more brutal. Right now we're in
> the 20s. I'm thinking some kind of vest or something, to protect my
> core. I already have a rain jacket (Portland, Oregon), and then a
> wicking long sleeve shirt on top of another shirt, but I'm still too
> cold. So any suggestions for a good, preferably inexpensive middle
> layer?

I bought a couple of really cheap fleece vests at Target a couple of
years ago (they were like $10, but it might have been a clearance sale)
for exactly this purpose.

I normally wear a thin long-sleeve coolmax shirt (base), a fleece
long-sleeve pullover (middle), and a nylon shell in winter, and add the
fleece vest if it's really cold.

The fleece vest is not useful as a regular cycling vest, however; it's
not windproof, and the back is too warm.

RichC

[[email protected]]

Preston Crawford wrote:
> What's a good (hopefully cheap) warm middle layer for the winter? As
> I've gotten skinnier winter has gotten more brutal. Right now we're in
> the 20s. I'm thinking some kind of vest or something, to protect my
> core. I already have a rain jacket (Portland, Oregon), and then a
> wicking long sleeve shirt on top of another shirt, but I'm still too
> cold. So any suggestions for a good, preferably inexpensive middle
> layer?
>
> Preston

I find any fairly bulky sweater (wool is best) will do the job as long
as you have a fairly good rain jacket or shell to keep out the air.

My riding jacket has velcro straps on the wrists and zips up to my neck
quite tightly. This combined with a heavy turtle neck (usually a
skier's version) makes a good outfit to about -20-25 (-30F ?). In
fact, above about -10 the real worry is often overheating. :)

Heavy duty gloves/mitts and a tuque are highly recommended.
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

[gds]

Preston Crawford wrote:
> What's a good (hopefully cheap) warm middle layer for the winter? As
>
As others have said a fleece vest would work well to add warmth for the
core.

But I'l add a negative comment to the idea of cheap. A number of
companies make really high quality fleece garments that have higher
initial cost than others. But they wear like iron. I have a Patagonia
fleece vest that has a windblock front and a lighet fleece for the back
an includes a large rear zippered pocket. I think it is now over a
decade old and has been used hard and show no wear. Over the years I
have found that especially in athletic wear the oftn a very well made
but more expensive inital cost garment winds up to be of better value
over the long run. The vest I'm talking about (if I can remember) cost
~$70 11 years ago, so I'm working on a cost per year of ~$6 and it is
still as good as new.

[[email protected]]

Preston Crawford wrote:
> What's a good (hopefully cheap) warm middle layer for the winter? As
> I've gotten skinnier winter has gotten more brutal. Right now we're in
> the 20s. I'm thinking some kind of vest or something, to protect my
> core. I already have a rain jacket (Portland, Oregon), and then a
> wicking long sleeve shirt on top of another shirt, but I'm still too
> cold. So any suggestions for a good, preferably inexpensive middle
> layer?
>
> Preston

Not exactly a suggestion for a middle layer, but I am quite comfortable
down to about -5C (23F) with:

thin wool socks
Neoprene booties over cycling shoes
cycling shorts
bib-tights with "Windtex" (windproof, almost water-proof) front panels,
and fleece back panels
long-sleeve wool undershirt
Windtex jacket that has a high collar so I can zip all the way up my
neck
Windproof helmet liner
dense fleece (windproof) gloves

For temps from -5C (23F) to -10C (14F) I add thin wool long underwear
under the tights and an additional thin wool long sleeve shirt. Down to
-15C (5F) I use a medium thick wool sweater instead of the second wool
undershirt and thicker or 2 thin wool socks. Below -15C I don't ride or
ski.

I think the key is windproof outer layer, and wool as a base closest to
the skin. Windproof keeps your personal warm air with you and limits
evaporation, and wool keeps you warm despite being wet from sweat,
condensation, or precipitation. Wicking synthetics don't seem to work
as intended when they are in a confined space like under a rain jacket
or behind some other windproof layer, so you have wet skin and
non-optimal insulation. Wool seems to be much more flexible in that
regard. Also I find tight-fitting helps as big pockets of cold air
don't accumulate. Covering transitions with big overlap from sleeve to
glove, jacket to pants, etc also makes a big difference.

Good luck!

Joseph

[zsilverball]

I agree with the fleece vest idea. I have a sleeveless $15 one that I
have used for the past ten years with great results and it is still
good as new. In addition to biking I also use the vest hiking and
running year round in Michigan.

[gds]

zsilverball wrote:
> I agree with the fleece vest idea. I have a sleeveless $15 one


Not to be silly, but isn't sleeveless the whole idea of being a vest?

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
Preston Crawford > writes:
> What's a good (hopefully cheap) warm middle layer for the winter? As
> I've gotten skinnier winter has gotten more brutal. Right now we're in
> the 20s. I'm thinking some kind of vest or something, to protect my
> core. I already have a rain jacket (Portland, Oregon), and then a
> wicking long sleeve shirt on top of another shirt, but I'm still too
> cold. So any suggestions for a good, preferably inexpensive middle
> layer?

Lately I've been using a couple of padded jack-shirts* when it's
not raining; they're nice and cozy. The outer shell is cotton
but the inner liner is 100% nylon, and the padding is 100% polyester.
That they button like an ordinary shirt gives them a degree of
adjustability for venting heat, especially around the neck. And
they're plaid on the face side, which as a fellow PNWer I appreciate.


cheers,
Tom

* from the Sonoma Genuine Jean Co, FWIW.

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
(Tom Keats) writes:

> Lately I've been using a couple of padded jack-shirts* when it's
> not raining

Not both at once, though.

cheers again,
Tom

--
--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

[Matt O'Toole]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 08:41:15 -0800, rdclark wrote:

> Preston Crawford wrote:

>> What's a good (hopefully cheap) warm middle layer for the winter? As
>> I've gotten skinnier winter has gotten more brutal. Right now we're in
>> the 20s. I'm thinking some kind of vest or something, to protect my
>> core. I already have a rain jacket (Portland, Oregon), and then a
>> wicking long sleeve shirt on top of another shirt, but I'm still too
>> cold. So any suggestions for a good, preferably inexpensive middle
>> layer?

> I bought a couple of really cheap fleece vests at Target a couple of years
> ago (they were like $10, but it might have been a clearance sale) for
> exactly this purpose.
>
> I normally wear a thin long-sleeve coolmax shirt (base), a fleece
> long-sleeve pullover (middle), and a nylon shell in winter, and add the
> fleece vest if it's really cold.

That's probably a good plan. A vest is fine if your arms don't get cold,
and with two layers already that's not likely.

I do fine with 1-2 layers under a windbreaker though.

> The fleece vest is not useful as a regular cycling vest, however; it's not
> windproof, and the back is too warm.

There are cycling/running/XCski specific models with windproof fronts and
breathable backs. They tend to be expensive though.

I find I don't need much core insulation while riding. The main challenge
is keeping the wind off, and hands and feet warm. If you need core
insulation, lightweight fleece should be enough.

Matt O.

[Beverly]

gds wrote:
> zsilverball wrote:
> > I agree with the fleece vest idea. I have a sleeveless $15 one
>
>
> Not to be silly, but isn't sleeveless the whole idea of being a vest?

Generally we think of vest being sleeveless but a sweater vest can have
sleeves.
http://www.knitting-crochet.com/lonslebutvesswe.html

[Rich Clark]

"Matt O'Toole" > wrote in message
g...

>> The fleece vest is not useful as a regular cycling vest, however; it's
>> not
>> windproof, and the back is too warm.
>
> There are cycling/running/XCski specific models with windproof fronts and
> breathable backs. They tend to be expensive though.

Right, that's why I made the distinction. I also have a cycling vest, which
is among most useful items of cycling apparel I own. In the fall and spring,
it lets me be comfortable across that whole range of temperatures where it's
hard to jusde what to wear, and when conditions might be very different
between morning and evening commutes.
>
> I find I don't need much core insulation while riding. The main challenge
> is keeping the wind off, and hands and feet warm. If you need core
> insulation, lightweight fleece should be enough.

Yeah, people really vary on this.

RichC

[gds]

vest [ vest ]


noun (plural vests)

Definitions:

1. North America dress sleeveless garment:

This is the primary definition I found. Perhaps other than in North
America there would be another.

>From my spotty knowledge of a couple of romance languages the root
"vest" would be in a variety of garments, including jackets and
dresses.

But still I think that in NA most folks would think sleeveless for a
vest.

And a secondary defintion would be the granting of power. But I don't
think that applies here ;-)

Anyway, I was just being a bit silly and not really meaning to pick
this nit.

[Rich Clark]

"Beverly" > wrote in message
oups.com...

>> Not to be silly, but isn't sleeveless the whole idea of being a vest?
>
> Generally we think of vest being sleeveless

So do most disctionaries. (This is American Heritage.)

vest (vst) KEY

NOUN:

1.. A sleeveless garment, often having buttons down the front, worn
usually over a shirt or blouse and sometimes as part of a three-piece suit.
> but a sweater vest can have
> sleeves.
> http://www.knitting-crochet.com/lonslebutvesswe.html

Whatever else that may be, it's not a vest. And what's that guy doing with
my Grandpa's sweater?

RichC

[zsilverball]

You sound kind of anal to me.

[gds]

zsilverball wrote:
> You sound kind of anal to me.

But the vest won't work for that. Lighten up!

[Zoot Katz]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:21:17 -0800, (Tom Keats)
wrote:

>In article >,
> (Tom Keats) writes:
>
>> Lately I've been using a couple of padded jack-shirts* when it's
>> not raining
>
>Not both at once, though.

At least not _yet_ anyway.
--
zk

[The Wogster]

Preston Crawford wrote:
> What's a good (hopefully cheap) warm middle layer for the winter? As
> I've gotten skinnier winter has gotten more brutal. Right now we're in
> the 20s. I'm thinking some kind of vest or something, to protect my
> core. I already have a rain jacket (Portland, Oregon), and then a
> wicking long sleeve shirt on top of another shirt, but I'm still too
> cold. So any suggestions for a good, preferably inexpensive middle
> layer?
>

Two things wool, a good wool sweater helps, if not polyester fleece can
be very useful, a good idea is one of each. Use a wicking shirt, then
the wool or polyester fleece, then the rain jacket. Always make sure
you keep your head covered.....

W

[zsilverball]

You look up the definition of vest and post it and then tell me to
lighten up, I think you are the one wound a bit tight.

gds wrote:
> zsilverball wrote:
> > You sound kind of anal to me.
>
> But the vest won't work for that. Lighten up!

[Claire]

> What's a good (hopefully cheap) warm middle layer for the winter?

Preston, we're cycling in similar climates. Here's what I wore this
morning, when it was cold (below freezing) and patches of morning fog:

Commuter bike shoes
Wool socks
Bike shorts
Thermal tights
Sports bra (unless you've been drinking a lot of bourbon, you can skip
this)
Long sleeve thin wicking layer
Old thrift store cable-knit sweater (yours doesn't have to have moth
holes)
Light jacket
Fredly hazard orange vest with big reflective stripe

Plus: earband, full-fingered bike gloves, snotrag

If it's even colder, I have fleece long-sleeved wicking tops that I can
wear as a base instead. On slightly warmer days, I have a wool vest. I
also have fleece jackets and vests that can substitute for the wool,
but I have found the wool to be more breathable.

Warm Regards,

Claire

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> What's a good (hopefully cheap) warm middle layer for the winter? As
> I've gotten skinnier winter has gotten more brutal. Right now we're in
> the 20s. I'm thinking some kind of vest or something, to protect my
> core. I already have a rain jacket (Portland, Oregon), and then a
> wicking long sleeve shirt on top of another shirt, but I'm still too
> cold. So any suggestions for a good, preferably inexpensive middle
> layer?
>
> Preston

The wicking long-sleeve "shirt" should be next to your skin; it doesn't work
nearly as well when there's something else underneath it.

The 20s can be tough, but I've found I can be very comfortable in the
mid-to-upper 30s (it was only 37 today, not too challenging) with a
long-sleeve wicking thermal baselayer (Hind, Nike & others make these... the
heavier ones are quite a bit warmer than the standard ones, sometimes called
"arctic" or "thermatec" among other things), standard jersey and
windbreaker. My heavier long-sleeve jersey sees duty if it's not likely to
warm up during the ride.

Keeping my hands warm is more of a challenge. My hands generally turn to ice
during the winter (swollen, purplish joints that stiffen up a bit). This
morning I started out the ride with my "Lobster" (two paired fingers plus
thumb) gloves, then later switched to Trek windteks. The windtek gloves are
amazing for the way they keep your hands warm and yet are extremely light &
flexible.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

[Peter Cole]

Preston Crawford wrote:
> What's a good (hopefully cheap) warm middle layer for the winter? As
> I've gotten skinnier winter has gotten more brutal. Right now we're in
> the 20s. I'm thinking some kind of vest or something, to protect my
> core. I already have a rain jacket (Portland, Oregon), and then a
> wicking long sleeve shirt on top of another shirt, but I'm still too
> cold. So any suggestions for a good, preferably inexpensive middle
> layer?
>
> Preston

The best skin-layer and/or mid-layer I've found is 4-way stretch fleece.
Some people make tights of this material, but jerseys and vests are more
rare. People are amazed by how warm relatively thin tights are, the same
holds true for upper body layers. The secret is having the fabric tight
to the skin (hence the term) which prevents any air circulating
underneath. I don't know of any brand name products made this way other
than the Col'd Lizard (formerly Gekko Gear) web-clothiers who make (or
made, anyway) tights, tops and vests from this stuff.

I wear a 4-way stretch fleece jersey all winter, often with nothing more
than bib-tights (same stuff) under and a bike wind vest over. I may
layer a wicking LS t-shirt under for colder days.

For general use, synthetic fleece beats everything else because it
breathes and doesn't absorb. 2-way stretch is more common and almost as
good as 4-way, certainly OK for a vest -- those vests are really cheap,
best fitted really snug to be effective.

[gds]

zsilverball wrote:
> You look up the definition of vest and post it and then tell me to
> lighten up, I think you are the one wound a bit tight.
>
Have fun at your therapy session this afternoon.

[Art Harris]

Preston Crawford wrote:

> What's a good (hopefully cheap) warm middle layer for the winter?

Here's what I like:

1st layer: Thin polypro long sleeve undershirt for wicking.

2nd layer: Heavyweight long sleeve cycling jersey (alas, usually not
cheap -- but I got one for $25).

Outer layer: Depending on temperature either nothing, a thin cycling
vest, a windbreaker, or a lined jacket.

Art Harris

[zsilverball]

Go look up some more words. Here is one for you, loser.

gds wrote:
> zsilverball wrote:
> > You look up the definition of vest and post it and then tell me to
> > lighten up, I think you are the one wound a bit tight.
> >
> Have fun at your therapy session this afternoon.

[gds]

zsilverball wrote:
> Go look up some more words. Here is one for you, loser.
>
> gds wrote:
> > zsilverball wrote:
> > > You look up the definition of vest and post it and then tell me to
> > > lighten up, I think you are the one wound a bit tight.
> > >
> > Have fun at your therapy session this afternoon.

Guess the therapy isn't working out too good. Perhaps you should ask
for your money back.

[Preston Crawford]

On 2005-12-15, gds > wrote:
>
> zsilverball wrote:
>> I agree with the fleece vest idea. I have a sleeveless $15 one
>
>
> Not to be silly, but isn't sleeveless the whole idea of being a vest?
>

That's what I ended up getting. A sleeveless fleece or vest or whatever
you want to get pedantic about and call it.

Preston

[gds]

Preston Crawford wrote:
> On 2005-12-15, gds > wrote:
> >
> > zsilverball wrote:
> >> I agree with the fleece vest idea. I have a sleeveless $15 one
> >
> >
> > Not to be silly, but isn't sleeveless the whole idea of being a vest?
> >
>
> That's what I ended up getting. A sleeveless fleece or vest or whatever
> you want to get pedantic about and call it.
>

Good choice. I think vests are excellent choices for most activie
sports.