Some adjustments to bars

[Ken M]

Okay while sitting around yesterday waiting for the LBS to call to tell
me the bike was ready to roll, I was thinking perhaps I could make some
adjustments to the bar position to put me in more of a road bike like
position to see if, as I think has happened, my back has become more
accustom to that sort of position. So after picking the bike up at the
shop, with the work still not done (long story there), today I adjusted
the angle of the stem to a downward position, not sure of the angle, and
with the bars in this position it felt like I was really stretching to
have my hands on the bars. Here are some measurements I took of the bike
in this first position

saddle height: 98cm
ground to bar top: 98.5 cm
center of bar to center of steer tube: 13cm

I did a short ride around the neighborhood like this and thought I was
stretched to much. Does this reach sound excessive? I thought the angle
was ok, my back didn't seem to object to it.

Then I made a couple of adjustments and here are some of the measurements

saddle height: 98cm unchanged
ground to bar top: 104cm
center of bar to center of steer tube: 6cm

Then another short ride with these adjustment, the reach seemed better,
didn't seem to be as much of a strain. The angle seemed okay perhaps a
little more relaxed.

So my question is do these measurements seem more road bike like? The
bike "looks" more like a "flat bar road bike" than a hybrid now.

Tomorrow will be a longer ride day, so perhaps this will give me more of
an indication if my back can tolerate this position better now than before.

Ken
-
[T]he bicycle is the most efficient machine ever created: Converting
calories into gas, a bicycle gets the equivalent of three thousand miles
per gallon. ~Bill Strickland, The Quotable Cyclist

Homepage: http://kcm-home.tripod.com/

[[email protected]]

Ken M wrote:
> Okay while sitting around yesterday waiting for the LBS to call to tell
> me the bike was ready to roll, I was thinking perhaps I could make some
> adjustments to the bar position to put me in more of a road bike like
> position to see if, as I think has happened, my back has become more
> accustom to that sort of position. So after picking the bike up at the
> shop, with the work still not done (long story there), today I adjusted
> the angle of the stem to a downward position, not sure of the angle, and
> with the bars in this position it felt like I was really stretching to
> have my hands on the bars. Here are some measurements I took of the bike
> in this first position
>
> saddle height: 98cm
> ground to bar top: 98.5 cm
> center of bar to center of steer tube: 13cm
>
> I did a short ride around the neighborhood like this and thought I was
> stretched to much. Does this reach sound excessive? I thought the angle
> was ok, my back didn't seem to object to it.
>
> Then I made a couple of adjustments and here are some of the measurements
>
> saddle height: 98cm unchanged
> ground to bar top: 104cm
> center of bar to center of steer tube: 6cm
>
> Then another short ride with these adjustment, the reach seemed better,
> didn't seem to be as much of a strain. The angle seemed okay perhaps a
> little more relaxed.
>
> So my question is do these measurements seem more road bike like? The
> bike "looks" more like a "flat bar road bike" than a hybrid now.
>
> Tomorrow will be a longer ride day, so perhaps this will give me more of
> an indication if my back can tolerate this position better now than before.
>
> Ken
> -
> [T]he bicycle is the most efficient machine ever created: Converting
> calories into gas, a bicycle gets the equivalent of three thousand miles
> per gallon. ~Bill Strickland, The Quotable Cyclist
>
> Homepage: http://kcm-home.tripod.com/

Hi Ken,

It's hard to say without knowing your measurements, or the other
measurement of your bike (top-tube length, etc). Bar height and reach
is quite a relative thing, with a large degree of personal preference.
Any big change will feel strange for a while while you get used to it.
Try making small incremental changes until you reach what you feel is
most comfortable.

joseph

[gds]

Ken M wrote:
<snip>
>
> saddle height: 98cm unchanged
> ground to bar top: 104cm
> center of bar to center of steer tube: 6cm
>
>snip>

> So my question is do these measurements seem more road bike like? The
> bike "looks" more like a "flat bar road bike" than a hybrid now.
>

If the question is "will this set up work for me?" it is impossible to
answer without knowing your body's proportions, your degree of
flexibility, etc.

But if the question is "does this set up resemple that for a road
bike?" my answer would be "Perhaps" but on the extreme upright end. I
see very few folks riding road bikes with the bar tops higher than the
seat by almost 2.5". Most hihg mileage riders have the bar tops lower
than the seat although there are plenty of road bikes set up so they
are roughly even.
fwiw I ride with the bar tops ~3" lower than my seat and find it very
comfortable for long rides. In fact I spend ~80% of my time on the
hoods which gives me a more stretched out position which I find both
comfortable and pretty aero. Most of the time I am on the bar tops is
when on sustained climbs.

[Ken M]

gds wrote:
> Ken M wrote:
> <snip>
>
>>saddle height: 98cm unchanged
>>ground to bar top: 104cm
>>center of bar to center of steer tube: 6cm
>>
>>snip>
>
>
>>So my question is do these measurements seem more road bike like? The
>>bike "looks" more like a "flat bar road bike" than a hybrid now.
>>
>
>
> If the question is "will this set up work for me?" it is impossible to
> answer without knowing your body's proportions, your degree of
> flexibility, etc.
>
Well I just got back from a 1 hour "test" ride on the new setup. With no
pain. The purpose of my adjustment "experiment" was to see how how body
/ back might react to a more aero position than the way the bike was set
up before. Before any adjustment the I felt like I was riding a kids
bike with "ape hanger" bars. They felt way too high for even my liking.


> But if the question is "does this set up resemple that for a road
> bike?" my answer would be "Perhaps" but on the extreme upright end. I
> see very few folks riding road bikes with the bar tops higher than the
> seat by almost 2.5". Most hihg mileage riders have the bar tops lower
> than the seat although there are plenty of road bikes set up so they
> are roughly even.
True I don't see many road bikes like that either, but I suspect that
after all of the riding I have been doing, that my body is becoming more
accustom to being in a more aero position. I seriously suspect that if
mechanically possible with my bike that I could maybe lower the bars
even further to be closer to the saddle height without any back
discomfort. May or may not be possible with the "riser" bars on the bike.

> fwiw I ride with the bar tops ~3" lower than my seat and find it very
> comfortable for long rides. In fact I spend ~80% of my time on the
> hoods which gives me a more stretched out position which I find both
> comfortable and pretty aero. Most of the time I am on the bar tops is
> when on sustained climbs.
>
Well I have a set of bar ends that pretty closely simulate the brake
hood position on road bike drop bars. And in that position it seems
pretty comfortable as well. I doubt that in my present physical
condition (15 pounds overweight in the midsection) I could ride for very
long with bars 3 inches below the saddle.


Ken
--
[T]he bicycle is the most efficient machine ever created: Converting
calories into gas, a bicycle gets the equivalent of three thousand miles
per gallon. ~Bill Strickland, The Quotable Cyclist

Homepage: http://kcm-home.tripod.com/

[gds]

Ken M wrote:
>> Well I have a set of bar ends that pretty closely simulate the brake
> hood position on road bike drop bars. And in that position it seems
> pretty comfortable as well. I doubt that in my present physical
> condition (15 pounds overweight in the midsection) I could ride for very
> long with bars 3 inches below the saddle.
>

I believe that getting into a relatively low, aero position is more a
question of flexibility than of a few extra ponds. So, that would mean
that your approach of gradually working yourself lower and lower is a
sound one. I would add that some stretching would also be very useful.
Most folks (me included!) don't spend adequate time just stretching.
While it is boring (to me) I always feel better as a result.

When I was actively competing in martial arts I stretched for ~30
minutes a day. Now I stretch for that amount of time a week- sometimes.
However, I still have enough flexibility "left over" to be comfortable
in a fairly low position.

Keep experimenting (and stretching) and you will find a good position
for you.

[Ken M]

gds wrote:
> Ken M wrote:
>
>>>Well I have a set of bar ends that pretty closely simulate the brake
>>
>>hood position on road bike drop bars. And in that position it seems
>>pretty comfortable as well. I doubt that in my present physical
>>condition (15 pounds overweight in the midsection) I could ride for very
>>long with bars 3 inches below the saddle.
>>
>
>
> I believe that getting into a relatively low, aero position is more a
> question of flexibility than of a few extra ponds. So, that would mean
> that your approach of gradually working yourself lower and lower is a
> sound one. I would add that some stretching would also be very useful.
> Most folks (me included!) don't spend adequate time just stretching.
> While it is boring (to me) I always feel better as a result.
>
Well I have read, in some old threads that some people who have "aero
belly" sometimes have a had time riding bikes with drop bars. I have
lost about 12 pounds, with the weight coming off steadily now. I had
never considered stretching. Have to try it.

> When I was actively competing in martial arts I stretched for ~30
> minutes a day. Now I stretch for that amount of time a week- sometimes.
> However, I still have enough flexibility "left over" to be comfortable
> in a fairly low position.
>
> Keep experimenting (and stretching) and you will find a good position
> for you.
>
Another point of the "experiment" was to see if a road bike may make a
good second / back up bike.

Ken
--
[T]he bicycle is the most efficient machine ever created: Converting
calories into gas, a bicycle gets the equivalent of three thousand miles
per gallon. ~Bill Strickland, The Quotable Cyclist

Homepage: http://kcm-home.tripod.com/

[[email protected]]

> Well I have a set of bar ends that pretty closely simulate the brake
> hood position on road bike drop bars. And in that position it seems
> pretty comfortable as well. I doubt that in my present physical
> condition (15 pounds overweight in the midsection) I could ride for very
> long with bars 3 inches below the saddle.

Over the last year I have lost approx 30kg and have varied my bar
position a lot in that period. One thing I noticed that helped me to
counter an "overly represented" upper-body was to have the saddle a bit
further back than normal. This allowed me to have a low-ish bar without
putting too much strain on my back and hands. As my weight went down, I
moved the saddle forward to a more "normal" position and lowered my
bars a bit more. In effect, I rotated myself forward maintaining my
legs-back angle as my center of gravity changed due to lost weight in
the upper body.

There is a big difference between stretching out from a long setup, and
stretching down from a low setup. Think about how much weight your arms
must support when you make your adjustments, and maybe try moving the
saddle for some tests.

Good luck!

Joseph

[gds]

wrote:
> Over the last year I have lost approx 30kg and have varied my bar
> position a lot in that period. One thing I noticed that helped me to
> counter an "overly represented" upper-body was to have the saddle a bit
> further back than normal. This allowed me to have a low-ish bar without
> putting too much strain on my back and hands. As my weight went down, I
> moved the saddle forward to a more "normal" position and lowered my
> bars a bit more. In effect, I rotated myself forward maintaining my
> legs-back angle as my center of gravity changed due to lost weight in
> the upper body.


But be carefull when doing this. Seat fore-aft positioning can have a
big impact on pressure on the knees and efficient pedaling in general.

>
> There is a big difference betfween stretching out from a long setup, and
> stretching down from a low setup. Think about how much weight your arms
> must support when you make your adjustments, and maybe try moving the
> saddle for some tests.
>

Actually, not as much as you might think. The weight you "feel" on your
arms is not simply a matter of how low the bars are. There are strong
correlations with core strength and efficient pedaling. And as has
mentioned numerous times in other threads hard pedaling, such as when
sprinting and hard climbing is often accompanied by an upward force on
the bars, even when the rider is standing and has their hands in the
drops.

Even with my seat 3" below my saddle I seldom have a feeling of wieght
on my hands. That happens only when my legs are tired and my pedlaing
style and cadence collapses.

[[email protected]]

gds wrote:
> wrote:
> > Over the last year I have lost approx 30kg and have varied my bar
> > position a lot in that period. One thing I noticed that helped me to
> > counter an "overly represented" upper-body was to have the saddle a bit
> > further back than normal. This allowed me to have a low-ish bar without
> > putting too much strain on my back and hands. As my weight went down, I
> > moved the saddle forward to a more "normal" position and lowered my
> > bars a bit more. In effect, I rotated myself forward maintaining my
> > legs-back angle as my center of gravity changed due to lost weight in
> > the upper body.
>
>
> But be carefull when doing this. Seat fore-aft positioning can have a
> big impact on pressure on the knees and efficient pedaling in general.
>
> >
> > There is a big difference betfween stretching out from a long setup, and
> > stretching down from a low setup. Think about how much weight your arms
> > must support when you make your adjustments, and maybe try moving the
> > saddle for some tests.
> >
>
> Actually, not as much as you might think. The weight you "feel" on your
> arms is not simply a matter of how low the bars are. There are strong
> correlations with core strength and efficient pedaling. And as has
> mentioned numerous times in other threads hard pedaling, such as when
> sprinting and hard climbing is often accompanied by an upward force on
> the bars, even when the rider is standing and has their hands in the
> drops.
>
> Even with my seat 3" below my saddle I seldom have a feeling of wieght
> on my hands. That happens only when my legs are tired and my pedlaing
> style and cadence collapses.

True, there should be minimal weight on the arms, but this has a bit to
do with the center of gravity of the rider and the rider's own weight
distribution. When one stands and bends at the hips/waist one's
buttocks must stick out a bit to maintain balance. This is somewhat
similar to how the saddle is behind the bottom bracket. If one has a
heavy upper body, as is often the case with overweight men, in order to
maintain balance one must stick out one's buttock more for a given
waist/hip bend than a non-overweight person. If the heavier person
keeps their saddle at the same fore-aft as a normal weight person, they
often are not as comfortable with a given drop of the bars, because
they feel too much weight on their arms.

I'm not saying that fore-aft of the saddle based on rider weight is a
recipie to be followed to the letter, but it is worth some
experimentation. Fore-aft usually also affects effective seat height,
so if changes are made to either the other should be checked as well.
I'd say for somewhat normal sized people a fore-aft range of 1" in
either direction of "normal" would be fine for experiments. And as
always with big changes, (particularly if one is not very limber) take
it easy so as not to strain while one gets used to the new position.

Here is an intersting bit that touches on this subject:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-sizing.html#frontback

And a more in depth look:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/kops.html

Joseph

[catzz66]

Maybe you could rent or borrow a road bike for a while to see how you
like real drop bars. You might even think of buying a used one and
giving it a longer trial.

[Mark Hickey]

"gds" > wrote:

>Actually, not as much as you might think. The weight you "feel" on your
>arms is not simply a matter of how low the bars are. There are strong
>correlations with core strength and efficient pedaling. And as has
>mentioned numerous times in other threads hard pedaling, such as when
>sprinting and hard climbing is often accompanied by an upward force on
>the bars, even when the rider is standing and has their hands in the
>drops.

The most painful century I ever rode was the slowest one I ever rode
(by far...). We had a cyclist in our group who was capable of riding
around 15-16mph, and so that's the speed we did. I was amazed at how
beat up my arms and butt felt after that ride, presumably due to the
fact that I wasn't unweighting the saddle and bars as much by pedaling
harder.

>Even with my seat 3" below my saddle I seldom have a feeling of wieght
>on my hands. That happens only when my legs are tired and my pedlaing
>style and cadence collapses.

Sounds like you're going to do well with a lower bar position. Just
remember that when you make any radical change to your position (more
than 1cm in any direction), it's going to take a while for your body
to get used to it - even if it ends up being the "perfect position"
for you, it may feel odd for a while. Perhaps you'll find that you're
just as comfortable with the bars even lower...

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

[Ken M]

catzz66 wrote:
> Maybe you could rent or borrow a road bike for a while to see how you
> like real drop bars. You might even think of buying a used one and
> giving it a longer trial.
Well that sounds like a good plan *IF* any place around rented bikes or
*IF* I knew anyone that road a road bike in my size. Or a used one maybe
an option but finding used stuff in my size is tough, according to most
sizing info I have seen I need between a 50 and 52cm frame. Those are
pretty tough to find.

Ken

--
[T]he bicycle is the most efficient machine ever created: Converting
calories into gas, a bicycle gets the equivalent of three thousand miles
per gallon. ~Bill Strickland, The Quotable Cyclist

Homepage: http://kcm-home.tripod.com/

[[email protected]]

Ken M wrote:
> catzz66 wrote:
> > Maybe you could rent or borrow a road bike for a while to see how you
> > like real drop bars. You might even think of buying a used one and
> > giving it a longer trial.
> Well that sounds like a good plan *IF* any place around rented bikes or
> *IF* I knew anyone that road a road bike in my size. Or a used one maybe
> an option but finding used stuff in my size is tough, according to most
> sizing info I have seen I need between a 50 and 52cm frame. Those are
> pretty tough to find.
>

I sort of have the problem on the opposite end of the spectrum. If you
live in a remote place with limited access to bike stores (as it seems
from your LBS not even managing to raise the bars) it may be worth
visiting a store in the nearest big city. You might also try contacting
a local bike club. Someone there might be able to help.

For fun, have a look at the "fit calculator" on
www.competitivecyclist.com to see what sizes they recommend. (The link
is at the bottom right side of the page)

Joseph

[catzz66]

Ken M wrote:
> catzz66 wrote:
>
>> Maybe you could rent or borrow a road bike for a while to see how you
>> like real drop bars. You might even think of buying a used one and
>> giving it a longer trial.
>
> Well that sounds like a good plan *IF* any place around rented bikes or
> *IF* I knew anyone that road a road bike in my size. Or a used one maybe
> an option but finding used stuff in my size is tough, according to most
> sizing info I have seen I need between a 50 and 52cm frame. Those are
> pretty tough to find.
>
> Ken
>


Good luck. I just looked in the Yellow Pages and on the net for used
bikes and found a low end shop. Bought a very old Fuji for 125 bucks.
The drop bars felt very strange at first, but gradually I started riding
it more than my mountain bike, to the point where I didn't ride the
mountain bike at all. Eventually I replaced them both with two one new
and another old road bike (which I ride most of the time because it is
sturdier).

[wvantwiller]

wrote in
oups.com:

....

>
> True, there should be minimal weight on the arms, but this has a bit
> to do with the center of gravity of the rider and the rider's own
> weight distribution. When one stands and bends at the hips/waist one's
> buttocks must stick out a bit to maintain balance.

....


>
> Joseph
>

I've read about this concept at one of the many web sites on fitting a
bike, and it seemed useful at first, but I've since come to doubt the
value as a guiding light to fitting a seat for most riders, especially
those with a less than 'optimum' body.

First, there's the dirty little fact that, indeed, people can bend at the
waist without sticking their buttocks MORE backwards! Only if you have a
straight back do you need to shift your buttocks backwards. Try placing
your feet a suitable distance from the wall, like when you on a bike;
then bend over. There is a surprising range of bend you can accomodate
without either toppling over or making holes in the wall. What changes
is the force on your feet/toes and the geometry of your joints. At any
rate, the interactions of the joint geometries are much more complex than
this simple 'balancing with the buttocks' model implies.

Similarly, a required assumption is that you have a constant reach from
bars to seat (i.e., only the seat fore and aft is considered). I don't
think most of us have infinitely variable stems, in either angle or
extension. Moving the seat seems to have more consequence from changing
the arm for the torso/saddle moment than changing the arm for the
foot/saddle moment. This is especially true when the 'squishy' nature of
the torso, and the non-linear changes it undergoes when the back is
straightened, are considered (e.g., changes in relative cg of the form).

This 'fit model' also does not address the interaction between torso and
legs. The angle between these changes as the seat moves fore and aft,
and for even moderately overweight people this is no small interaction.
This also goes for people with larger and longer legs.

There's also the fact that I'm not so sure the rider is actually
balancing/supporting their weight using the counterbalance moment derived
from their feet on the pedals or else the alternation of force vectors
from downstroke to upstroke would be very interesting indeed. When I
keep an 85 to 90rpm cadence on reasonable slopes, I seem to spend most of
my time bearing my weight on the center of the saddle and hands. the fact
that you should be able to continue this cadence without a lot of hip
rotation about the long axis of the bike shows the forces are not really
lifting the rider from the seat.

Overall, I'd say there may be some effects from radical departures from
what is considered 'normal', like in a reversal of the seat tube angle,
but slight fore and aft adjustments for me seem to be more a question of
the moment change from changes in torso stretch than moment change from
displacement of the foot/buttocks moment arm. Or, even due more to
moment change from changes in the muscle interactions between leg and
torso than the foot/buttock moment arm.

However, I'm open to the results of analysis, if not my own empirical
fitting results.

It's just that I've had a lot of time to think about this while putting
on the miles.