Perhaps someone should tell "BICYCLING" mag's "Style Man" about this...

[Garrison Hilliard]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sportacademy/hi/sa/special_events/cycling/newsid_3030000/3030160.stm

[Phil, Squid-in-Training]

>
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sportacademy/hi/sa/special_events/cycling/newsid_30300
00/3030160.stm


"If you ride more than a couple of miles a day and have a high-performance
racing or mountain bike, then it's worth forking out the extra cash for the
proper gear."

WTF?!?


--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

[Doug Huffman]

WTF indeed. I ride more than 5K miles/year (and more than that this year)
on a steel bike priced like titanium and gold that I bought just so that I
don't need to BUY BUY BUY bike specific rags.

Bike retailers' biggest enemy is their marketing philosophy.


"Phil, Squid-in-Training" > wrote in message
...
> >
>
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sportacademy/hi/sa/special_events/cycling/newsid_30300
> 00/3030160.stm
>
>
> "If you ride more than a couple of miles a day and have a high-performance
> racing or mountain bike, then it's worth forking out the extra cash for
the
> proper gear."
>
> WTF?!?
>
>
> --
> Phil, Squid-in-Training
>
>
>

[Doug Huffman]

Now there's a subtle way to introduce race into the non-issue. Are you
Nigerian?


"Kevan Smith" /\/\> wrote in message
...
> Does anybody who's ridden for any amount of time still read BuyCycling for
> Whitey magazine?
>
>
> --
> http://home.sport.rr.com/cuthulu/ human rights = peace
> When this load is DONE I think I'll wash it AGAIN ...
> 1:14:21 PM 16 July 2003

[A Muzi]

>
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sportacademy/hi/sa/special_events/cycling/newsid_30300
> > 00/3030160.stm
> > "If you ride more than a couple of miles a day and have a
high-performance
> > racing or mountain bike, then it's worth forking out the extra cash for
> the
> > proper gear."

> "Phil, Squid-in-Training" > perspicacious as always, wrote in
message
> ...
> > WTF?!?

"Doug Huffman" > wrote in message
...
> WTF indeed. I ride more than 5K miles/year (and more than that this year)
> on a steel bike priced like titanium and gold that I bought just so that I
> don't need to BUY BUY BUY bike specific rags.
>
> Bike retailers' biggest enemy is their marketing philosophy.


_OUR_ 'marketing philosophy'???
WTF?!?
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Ted Bennett]

Kevan Smith /\/\> wrote:

> >Now there's a subtle way to introduce race into the non-issue. Are you
> >Nigerian?
>
> On the contrary. Look through BuyCycling magazine and see how many non-white
> people you see, then look up from the magazine and see how many you see in
> the
> real world. BuyCycling, indeed Rodale in general in all of their
> publications,
> seem to go out of their way to exclude minorities. Recently, the only black
> people I've seen in the magazine have been in ads for charity bike rides.
> Asians? Hispanics? Forget it.

Actually, the more serious problem is that Bicycling is now more about
selling cars than bikes. Count up how many full page ads they run, at
around $25,000 each, for cars and trucks, relative to bikes, bike gear
and bicycle advocacy.

--
Ted Bennett
Portland OR

[A Muzi]

> Kevan Smith /\/\> wrote:
> > >Now there's a subtle way to introduce race into the non-issue. Are you
> > >Nigerian?
> > On the contrary. Look through BuyCycling magazine and see how many
non-white
> > people you see, then look up from the magazine and see how many you see
in
> > the
> > real world. BuyCycling, indeed Rodale in general in all of their
> > publications,
> > seem to go out of their way to exclude minorities. Recently, the only
black
> > people I've seen in the magazine have been in ads for charity bike
rides.
> > Asians? Hispanics? Forget it.


"Ted Bennett" > wrote in message
...
> Actually, the more serious problem is that Bicycling is now more about
> selling cars than bikes. Count up how many full page ads they run, at
> around $25,000 each, for cars and trucks, relative to bikes, bike gear
> and bicycle advocacy.

For an eye opening experience with Buycycling's advertising structure, page
through a subscription copy and a bike shop copy together. Thye used to get
hate mail from dealers about the deep discount ads, being on the rack right
in the bike shop. Now LBS copies just show 'filler' ads . Problem solved.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Garrison Hilliard]

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 20:56:17 -0500, Kevan Smith /\/\>
wrote:

>Asians?

In almost every issue... Nelson Lu, one of their bike reviewers, is of
Asian heritage.

[Pat]

x-no-archive:yes

"Doug Huffman" > Now there's a subtle way to introduce race into the
non-issue. Are you
> Nigerian?

Doug, he's still smarting because last year he wrote a rant to and about
Bicycling Magazine demanding they put a dark-skinned rider on their February
issue because it is Black History month in the U.S. They ignored him and
that hurt his ego big time.

Pat in TX

[Garrison Hilliard]

"Pat" > wrote:

>
>"Doug Huffman" > Now there's a subtle way to introduce race into the
>non-issue. Are you
>> Nigerian?
>
>Doug, he's still smarting because last year he wrote a rant to and about
>Bicycling Magazine demanding they put a dark-skinned rider on their February
>issue because it is Black History month in the U.S. They ignored him and
>that hurt his ego big time.


Hmmm...

[Slider2699]

"Kevan Smith" /\/\> wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 19:46:27 -0400, "Doug Huffman"
> from
> wrote:
>
> >Now there's a subtle way to introduce race into the non-issue. Are you
> >Nigerian?
>
> On the contrary. Look through BuyCycling magazine and see how many
non-white
> people you see, then look up from the magazine and see how many you see in
the
> real world. BuyCycling, indeed Rodale in general in all of their
publications,
> seem to go out of their way to exclude minorities. Recently, the only
black
> people I've seen in the magazine have been in ads for charity bike rides.
> Asians? Hispanics? Forget it.

They are aiming for their target demographic. Recreational and competitive
cycling are, to use your term, "Whitey" sports. I've done several charity
rides and have never seen an African-American. Never. The only
African-Americans I see riding bikes are riding Wal-Mart specials. If you
want to see Latinos and African-Americans in a bicycling magazine, buy
"Lowrider Bicycle". Believe me, if there were lots of African-American and
Latino recreational cyclists, they would be targeted. Money is green, no
matter from whom it comes, Kevvie.

[Slider2699]

"Kevan Smith" /\/\> wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:58:53 GMT, "Slider2699" > from
> RoadRunner - Tampa Bay wrote:
>
> >They are aiming for their target demographic. Recreational and
competitive
> >cycling are, to use your term, "Whitey" sports. I've done several charity
> >rides and have never seen an African-American. Never. The only
> >African-Americans I see riding bikes are riding Wal-Mart specials.
>
> Imagine what it would do for LBSes if BuyCycling broadened their target
market
> to ALL cyclists instead of a monied, white elite. Imagine what it would do
for
> the sport. At the very least, Bicycling should change its name to
Expensive
> Bicycling or something.

But people who buy bikes as cheap transportation don't spend money on
cycling. Guys on DUI specials don't buy Castelli shorts, or fancy Giro
helmets. They also don't care about training tips, or nutrition tips, or
articles on cycling destinations. The people who currently read Bicycling
do. Hence, the preponderance of monied white people in Bicycling. As I
stated before, if you want to see minorities in a bicycle-oriented magazine,
read "Lowrider Bicycle".

[Slider2699]

"Kevan Smith" /\/\> wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 20:18:29 GMT, "Slider2699" > from
> RoadRunner - Tampa Bay wrote:
>
> >But people who buy bikes as cheap transportation don't spend money on
> >cycling. Guys on DUI specials don't buy Castelli shorts, or fancy Giro
> >helmets. They also don't care about training tips, or nutrition tips, or
> >articles on cycling destinations. The people who currently read Bicycling
> >do. Hence, the preponderance of monied white people in Bicycling. As I
> >stated before, if you want to see minorities in a bicycle-oriented
magazine,
> >read "Lowrider Bicycle".
>
> You just don't get it. IF Bicycling started including everyday,
inexpensive,
> commuter- and regular-person content, then they would attract a broader
> audience. More readers with a little money probably equals a smaller
amount of
> readers with a lot of money. But more readers provided with relevant
content
> does the whole bicycling community good.

No, YOU don't get it. People who ride DUI specials, and poor
transportation-oriented bicycle riders don't look at bicycling as a hobby.
They don't want to read about it. They don't care. That's the same reason
you don't see articles in car enthusiast magazines about Ford Taurus wagons,
and Geo Metros. Magazines about hobbies or activities make money from ads
which are targeted at the hobbyist. Hobbyists see these ads and spend money
on the products. Someone riding a 10 year old Murray cruiser isn't going to
do that, and that's how magazines make money. Capitalism, and all that jazz.

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article >,
"H. Guy" > wrote:

> > >They are aiming for their target demographic. Recreational and competitive
> > >cycling are, to use your term, "Whitey" sports. I've done several charity
> > >rides and have never seen an African-American. Never. The only
> > >African-Americans I see riding bikes are riding Wal-Mart specials.
>
> that's 100% contrary to my experience in d.c. i'd say half of the people
> i see, regardless of race, are on their wal-mart specials. titanium isn't
> just the white man's (financial) burden. i've no doubt that tampa is
> a different world.
>
> > Imagine what it would do for LBSes if BuyCycling broadened their target
> > market
> > to ALL cyclists instead of a monied, white elite. Imagine what it would do
> > for
> > the sport. At the very least, Bicycling should change its name to Expensive
> > Bicycling or something.
>
> they've leaned that way for at least the last 15 years. it's the
> unobtanium frame that gets the enthusiast drooling, so that's naturally
> what they feature. but they should feature at least one bike a month for
> the population that can't drop $3K on a bike.

And they do. Look at the prices. They invariably feature a low or
mid-range road bike every month I've checked.

For all the slagging Bicycling gets in this forum (and every time they
publish a new ratio for the relative importance of rotating and
non-rotating mass, they earn it), they know their audience well.

It's the difference between the demographics of stereo and TV owners
(most of whom are pretty happy if their right and left speakers are
plugged in the correct places) and the readers of _Sound & Vision_ or
(shudder) _The Absolute Sound_. Everyone you know owns a stereo, but
precious few treat their stereo as a hobby, and fewer still care enough
to want a magazine about it.

Bicycling covers the _Sound & Vision_ end of the market ably. In either
market, the target is a broad group where they want buying advice on
equipment that makes sense for middle-class readers treating the
activity as a primary hobby (good and solid, but not insane).

At least in this way cyclists are less scary than audiophiles: we all
agree that once your bike budget reaches $5000, you can probably buy one
or two of the best, highest-performance bikes in the world. There might
be a few overachieving Colnago Ferrari editions out there, but they're
obviously rich collector bait.

Audiophiles figure $5000 is a good start. For the speakers. In the
home-theatre room.

And while Bicycling says stupid things monthly, be they inadvertant
reviews of the tire pressures and placebo effects of yet another
lightweight frame, or the advice in the Style Man column (really, he
could take some lessons from Fabrizio, those glasses are so two years
ago), at least a cyclist who followed most of their advice (train well,
eat right, do a century, buy this mid-range bike with decent components)
would end up a better cyclist than if they had no similar info source.

On the gripping hand, I'm reminded of a Penny Arcade comic strip in
which a salesman is trying to sell one of the characters a strategy
guide for a video game. "No thanks, I have the Internet."

--
Ryan Cousineau, http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

[Eric S. Sande]

>On the gripping hand, I'm reminded of a Penny Arcade comic strip in
>which a salesman is trying to sell one of the characters a strategy
>guide for a video game. "No thanks, I have the Internet."

I'm inclined to disagree. The bicycle isn't the same thing as
the stereo, simply because we don't interact with them on the
same level.

I like my Mageneplanars but I love my Schwinn.



--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________
------------------"Buddy Holly, the Texas Elvis"------------------

[Pat]

x-no-archive:yes

"Eric S. Sande" > wrote in message
...
> >On the gripping hand, I'm reminded of a Penny Arcade comic strip in
> >which a salesman is trying to sell one of the characters a strategy
> >guide for a video game. "No thanks, I have the Internet."

>
> I'm inclined to disagree. The bicycle isn't the same thing as
> the stereo, simply because we don't interact with them on the
> same level.
>
> I like my Mageneplanars but I love my Schwinn.

I agree with Ryan: I know a guy who'd name his child "Bose" if his wife
would let him.

Pat in TX

[David Kerber]

In article >,
says...

....

> On the gripping hand, I'm reminded of a Penny Arcade comic strip in
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Are you a Niven/Pournelle fan?

--
Dave Kerber
Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

[g.daniels]

1. old playboy minus norman
2. o.p. minus beaver
3. lotta people think everyone riding a bike iza retard
4. lota people think clothing.this makes bike plus clothing not a
retard.
5. lotta people driving cars don't think, you may have noticed this in
your travels
6. a secretary writes this BS on coffebreak. those other ugly dudes
are models scraped of the street
7. why are you wasting time reading crap about $300 coffemakers and
looking at expensive photos of bug infested cabins.

[Sheldon Brown]

David Kerber wrote:

>>On the gripping hand, I'm reminded of a Penny Arcade comic strip in=20

> Are you a Niven/Pournelle fan?

Oooh, I am! Except for the one I just finished, "Fallen Angels" which=20
is a piece of crap.

Recently discovered Elizabeth Moon, I've been pouring through her=20
Familias Regnant series...

I'm a sucker for Baen eBooks, spend far too much time reading 'em on my=20
Cli=E9 NZ90

Sheldon "Hard Science Fiction" Brown
+-----------------------------------------------------+
| When a place gets crowded enough to require ID's, |
| social collapse is not far away. It is time to go |
| elsewhere. The best thing about space travel is |
| that it made it possible to go elsewhere. |
| --Robert A. Heinlein |
+-----------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

[David Kerber]

In article >,
says...
> David Kerber wrote:
>
> >>On the gripping hand, I'm reminded of a Penny Arcade comic strip in
>
> > Are you a Niven/Pournelle fan?
>
> Oooh, I am! Except for the one I just finished, "Fallen Angels" which
> is a piece of crap.

I haven't read that one...


> Recently discovered Elizabeth Moon, I've been pouring through her
> Familias Regnant series...
>
> I'm a sucker for Baen eBooks, spend far too much time reading 'em on my
> Clié NZ90
>
> Sheldon "Hard Science Fiction" Brown

I figured as much from your reference to "The Gripping Hand". Me, too,
though I don't keep up with current authors much. About once a year
I'll go out and buy a few, but spend the rest of the year re-reading
some of the 400 or so in my collection. I just re-read (for the 3rd
time, IIRC) "The Gripping Hand" earlier this year.

.....


--
Dave Kerber
Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article >,
"Eric S. Sande" > wrote:

> >On the gripping hand, I'm reminded of a Penny Arcade comic strip in
> >which a salesman is trying to sell one of the characters a strategy
> >guide for a video game. "No thanks, I have the Internet."
>
> I'm inclined to disagree. The bicycle isn't the same thing as
> the stereo, simply because we don't interact with them on the
> same level.

Why did you quote that one section of my post? It has naught to do with
your point...

> I like my Mageneplanars but I love my Schwinn.

I was making a point about their relative pricing more than the
emotional bond you can get with them. I assure you there are people out
there with bicycles and stereos who love their stereos more. Sick, sick
people.

Personally, I tend not to love my Pinarello, and I love it less the more
I think about it. Bikes are bikes. A good one that fits well is a good
biek. After too long off the bike, I get a hankering to ride, but it's
to ride a bike that fits well, not necessarily the Pinarello "Pastiche"
or the Kona Kilauea "Beckle".

Also not emotionally attached to my Infinity RS2s,
--
Ryan Cousineau, http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

[Zoot Katz]

Sun, 20 Jul 2003 00:51:23 -0700,
>, Ryan Cousineau
> wrote:

>Personally, I tend not to love my Pinarello, and I love it less the more
>I think about it. Bikes are bikes. A good one that fits well is a good
>biek. After too long off the bike, I get a hankering to ride, but it's
>to ride a bike that fits well, not necessarily the Pinarello "Pastiche"
>or the Kona Kilauea "Beckle".
>
>Also not emotionally attached to my Infinity RS2s

That you named the bikes indicates something deeper than the
connection you have with your stereo.

Doofey car rags did bs surveys and found there's a frightening percent
of their readers who profess to love their cars more than their
spouses and children.

Having a bicycle stolen feels much like mourning after the anger
subsides.

Typically when a car is stolen people will worry more about the
personal effects that were in it. A bicycle is usually a very
personalised item.

The bike responds to more physical, earthy and honest action than dial
twiddling. It acquires wear patterns that reflect and confirm your
being. Riding it requires your constant attention. The sensory
feedback is more than just auditory.

There's romance in bicycling that's not matched by anything one can do
with headphones in their lazy boy. The wheel, the road, the wind. . .
all that sappy stuff. The personal growth involved in meeting
challenges and overcoming previous limitations liberates the spirit.
The endorphines aren't too bad either. Bikes are easy to love.
--
zk

[David Damerell]

Sheldon Brown > wrote:
>David Kerber wrote:
>>>On the gripping hand, I'm reminded of a Penny Arcade comic strip in=20
>>Are you a Niven/Pournelle fan?
>Oooh, I am! Except for the one I just finished, "Fallen Angels" which
>is a piece of crap.

Niven doesn't have Heinlein's excuse of brain cancer, but the effects have
been much the same - everything's been pretty awful recently.

"The Gripping Hand" was "The Moat Around Murcheson's Eye" in the UK.

>Recently discovered Elizabeth Moon, I've been pouring through her
>Familias Regnant series...

Like Bujold if Bujold was obsessed with horses. :-)

At the '95 Worldcon Moon sat with me on a bouncy castle I was looking
after and talked to me for a bit - at the time I had no idea who she was.

>I'm a sucker for Baen eBooks, spend far too much time reading 'em on my
>Clie.

Baen have extracted a phenomenal amount of money from me by giving books
away for free. Come to think of it, a US bike shop has got quite a bit of
money out of me by giving advice away for free...
--
David Damerell > flcl?

[David Damerell]

Ryan Cousineau > wrote:
>Someone's eventually going to figure out what the Penny Arcade reference
>says about me,

You _really_ like fruit.
--
David Damerell > flcl?

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article >,
David Damerell > wrote:

> Ryan Cousineau > wrote:
> >Someone's eventually going to figure out what the Penny Arcade reference
> >says about me,
>
> You _really_ like fruit.

Mmm. Juice!

--
Ryan Cousineau, http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club