Do tires make a difference in ride feel?

[prometheus7]

9000 miles ago I bought my first road bike with Continental GP 3000 tires.
I've changed them out with Conti's everytime they've worn out and never had
a flat, so, given my experience, I really don't have a reason to consider
going to a different tire because of reliability issues. I am curious
though, as to whether different tires provide a different ride feel on a
bike or whether it would all be in air pressure...a Conti would feel like
everything else. I consider reliability a premium issue, so I don't want to
risk a bunch of flats just to scratch my curiosity itch. I figured I would
ask the collective wisdom of the group. Thoughts?

[David L. Johnson]

On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 08:31:57 -0500, prometheus7 wrote:

> 9000 miles ago I bought my first road bike with Continental GP 3000 tires.
> I've changed them out with Conti's everytime they've worn out and never had
> a flat, so, given my experience, I really don't have a reason to consider
> going to a different tire because of reliability issues. I am curious
> though, as to whether different tires provide a different ride feel on a
> bike or whether it would all be in air pressure...a Conti would feel like
> everything else. I consider reliability a premium issue, so I don't want to
> risk a bunch of flats just to scratch my curiosity itch. I figured I would
> ask the collective wisdom of the group. Thoughts?

Certainly tires make a difference in ride feel. The stiffness of the
sidewalls is a good measure of how much drag you'll feel from the tire. I
had a set of cheapo Vittorias and it felt like I was dragging an anchor.
A good, supple sidewall (with the proper pressure) and the whole bike will
feel more lively.

I've never used Conti's, though, since I've had to rescue too many riders
using them, who have sidewall blowouts.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | When you are up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember
_`\(,_ | that your initial objective was to drain the swamp. -- LBJ
(_)/ (_) |

[Vee]

prometheus7 wrote:
> 9000 miles ago I bought my first road bike with Continental GP 3000 tires.
> I've changed them out with Conti's everytime they've worn out and never had
> a flat, so, given my experience, I really don't have a reason to consider
> going to a different tire because of reliability issues. I am curious
> though, as to whether different tires provide a different ride feel on a
> bike or whether it would all be in air pressure...a Conti would feel like
> everything else. I consider reliability a premium issue, so I don't want to
> risk a bunch of flats just to scratch my curiosity itch. I figured I would
> ask the collective wisdom of the group. Thoughts?

I personally can feel no difference between tires of similar size.
Handling and ride always feel about the same to me, whether I'm using a
racing tire or a heavy duty commuting tire. For this reason, I find it
hard to sell high end tires... it really annoys Vittoria loyalists when
I say "they're just tires."

I think it's to my benefit that I'm so undiscriminating. I have oodles
of slightly used tires in my basement that more sensitive riders
abandoned as too heavy or harsh or whatever. They work fine for me.

-Vee

[[email protected]]

David L. Johnson writes:

>> 9000 miles ago I bought my first road bike with Continental GP 3000
>> tires. I've changed them out with Conti's every time they've worn
>> out and never had a flat, so, given my experience, I really don't
>> have a reason to consider going to a different tire because of
>> reliability issues. I am curious though, as to whether different
>> tires provide a different ride feel on a bike or whether it would
>> all be in air pressure...a Conti would feel like everything else.
>> I consider reliability a premium issue, so I don't want to risk a
>> bunch of flats just to scratch my curiosity itch. I figured I
>> would ask the collective wisdom of the group. Thoughts?

> Certainly tires make a difference in ride feel. The stiffness of
> the sidewalls is a good measure of how much drag you'll feel from
> the tire. I had a set of cheapo Vittorias and it felt like I was
> dragging an anchor. A good, supple sidewall (with the proper
> pressure) and the whole bike will feel more lively.

You mean RR is higher with thicker sidewalls (lower TPI) but the ride
comfort is not perceptibly different, these damping losses being so
small it takes careful measurement to characterize the difference in
RR. You can most likely hear the difference because acoustic damping
is significant for sound but that's literally in the noise for ride
comfort.

> I've never used Conti's though, since I've had to rescue too many
> riders using them, who have sidewall blowouts.

They are famous for that and their "kite string" low TPI casings
should make that obvious.

Jobst Brandt

[[email protected]]

vredestein fortezza tricomps are puncture resistant and have a lively
feel even at 140psi

[Arthur Harris]

"prometheus7" wrote:
> 9000 miles ago I bought my first road bike with Continental GP 3000 tires.
> I've changed them out with Conti's everytime they've worn out and never
> had
> a flat, so, given my experience, I really don't have a reason to consider
> going to a different tire because of reliability issues. I am curious
> though, as to whether different tires provide a different ride feel on a
> bike or whether it would all be in air pressure...a Conti would feel like
> everything else. I consider reliability a premium issue, so I don't want
> to
> risk a bunch of flats just to scratch my curiosity itch. I figured I
> would
> ask the collective wisdom of the group. Thoughts?

There's a couple of issues to consider when it comes to tire "feel." One has
to do with tread pattern. The old (mid '80s?) Turbo S tires had a raised
center ridge, supposedly to extend wear. That ridge would squirm as the tire
rotated, producing a weird sensation.

Another issue is traction. While not strictly related to "feel," a tire with
good traction gives more confidence when cornering, especially in rain.
Traction depends on tread material, tread pattern (or lack thereof), and
inflation pressure.

A lighter tire and higher thread count will produce more compliance, less
rolling resistance, and some will say, a better feel. Personally, I think
tire width, tread pattern, weight, and inflation pressure have the greatest
effect. Will two otherwise identical tires, one with 66 tpi and the other
with 127 tpi casings, feel very different? I tend to doubt whether most of
us could tell the difference in a blind test.

Art Harris

[[email protected]]

someone writes:

> vredestein fortezza tricomps are puncture resistant and have a lively
> feel even at 140psi

Ooh! "Lively", that's better than "supple", and at 140psi yet. How is
that characterized in measurable terms?

Jobst Brandt

[[email protected]]

aramco aramco!!

[[email protected]]

if the manufacturer defines his goal as supplying a specific market
segment with an ideal tire for that MS then yahhoooo!!! there's a
definite feel/longevity/punture resistance/AND USEAGE!! for each model:
delightful and more reliable than beer
the conti is malinged for the sidewall but the sidewall gives the TT
really lifesaving performance and off couirse that's what a TT should
do at 5PM in NM.
the Conti TT's problem maybe be a lack of inflation - the pressure ##
should read - "as necessary"
i just ran 2 tires HDTouring with 100 pound ratings and the 100 pounds
is $%^^##@ more reliable than the Conti suggested 70

[David]

wrote:
> someone writes:
>
>
>>vredestein fortezza tricomps are puncture resistant and have a lively
>>feel even at 140psi
>
>
> Ooh! "Lively", that's better than "supple", and at 140psi yet. How is
> that characterized in measurable terms?
>
> Jobst Brandt

I've always wanted 'em lively AND supple. I guess it is just personal
preference.

[[email protected]]

same reasoning applies to light riders? less squish or deformation
aligns within the designer's model?
what's a normal rider's weight range? hmmmmmmm
120-165?

[[email protected]]

Ivar Hesselager writes:

> Conti's GP 3000 are not only famous of their vulnerability to
> sidewall cuts, but also of their good clincher-like feel.

This is a great collection, supple, lively, good feel, what's next in
qualitative assessment of tires. This goes back to the dark ages of
bicycle lore, or maybe this is the dark age of bicycle technology, aka
fashion.

> If the roads you are riding give you only the benefits and not the
> problems of the GP 3000, you have a good reason to stick to one of
> the best tires on the market, regarding feel.

> Furthermore these tires are on sale most places these days, because
> they are going out of the market soon, being substituted by GP 4000.

Suggestively tough names like Armadillo, Vector-pro, GP 3000, along
with colored rubber is a great skid backward for tires. Judging by
how the roads are full of huge black, black windowed SUV's with four
exhaust pipes that rumble to match the beat of the knobby tires,
society cares more for appearance than ever. The more one spends, the
better one stands among his peers.

> I'm an old middleweight and (over)cautious rider - and I like the
> feel of the Conti "4-Season" 25 mm version the best, because it has
> better traction and makes me dare going faster through the curves -
> especially on wet roads. And it also has reinforced sidewalls,
> which means a lot on the roads I ride on.

Where do you sense the "better traction" of these tires? I can't
visualize and old middleweight in hard cornering at the limit of
traction.

> But if I was riding your roads I would stick to those GP 3000's as
> long as they are available.

Ivar of Denmark

In Denmark? I wasn't aware that American consumer syndrome had
arrived there yet. Roads are roads around the world. The way you
tell it, there are special tires for each nation's roads. Tires are
manufactured everywhere in the world and have no national features.

Jobst Brandt

[Sandy]

Dans le message de ,
> a
réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> Ivar Hesselager writes:
> Ivar of Denmark
>
> In Denmark? I wasn't aware that American consumer syndrome had
> arrived there yet. Roads are roads around the world. The way you
> tell it, there are special tires for each nation's roads. Tires are
> manufactured everywhere in the world and have no national features.
>
> Jobst Brandt

He just didn't want you getting hopelessly confused with Ivar of
Bedford-Stuy.
He seems to have missed the mark.
--
Sandy

The above is guaranteed 100% free of sarcasm,
denigration, snotty remarks, indifference, platitudes, fuming demands that
"you do the math", conceited visions of a better world on wheels according
to [insert NAME here].

[Ted]

So Jobst, what do you ride on? The cheapest tires you can find, or is
there some factor in the tires that is not all marketing? I am
serious.

Ted.

[[email protected]]

Ivar Hesselager writes:

> You do remember me passing you on the way down from Timmelsjoch to
> Soelden last summer, dont you?

> I said: Guten Tag,
> You said: It's Nachmittag.
> I said: Nice looking Tank you have there.
> You said: Nein, it's a Fahrrad.
> I said: It doesn't look like a Ferrari to me.
> You said: Watch out,there is Wasser on the road
> I said: No problem, I have 4-Season tires on
> You said: Watch out, they are a commercial trick
> I said: You must be Jobst the Wheelman
> You said: It's an unproven theory

> Do you remember me now?

Nice imagination you have. I haven't been in that area for a couple
of years and then not alone. The silly exchange you scripted doesn't
reflect my encounters with other riders, here or anywhere else. Your
use of Pidgin German doesn't make it any more credible.

>> Where do you sense the "better traction" of these tires? I can't
>> visualize and old middleweight in hard cornering at the limit of
>> traction.

> In the Tirolian alps I sense it. Intensely. We are quite a few
> grumpy old men struggling up and tumbling down the mountain roads
> around Oetztal. In trying to keep up with the speed of the
> Italianos Vecchios, I push my traction, my courage and my luck to
> the limit.

Sounds dangerous.

>>> But if I was riding your roads I would stick to those GP 3000's as
>>> long as they are available.

>> Ivar of Denmark

>> In Denmark? I wasn't aware that American consumer syndrome had
>> arrived there yet. Roads are roads around the world. The way you
>> tell it, there are special tires for each nation's roads. Tires
>> are manufactured everywhere in the world and have no national
>> features.

> Flintstone is an abundant natural ressource here in the unspoiled
> viking reservation. Flint is good for cutting whales and bears skin
> - but it also cuts the sidewalls of the GP3000's without mercy.

Oh! How does it get on the sidewalls when riding on roads. If you
must ride off road in rocky terrain, I suggest you use a suitably fat
tire with sidewall rubber. We were discussing road tires.

> Outside the reservation there are roads without flintstones and some
> of them are considered safe for GP3000's. Fortunately our fine
> German neighbours make 18 different brands of Continental tires for
> racing bicycles alone, so there is one for every type of road.

I haven't found many riders who speak well of Continental tires and
their sidewalls. I suspect those who ride them around here got them
on a special offer rather than choosing them for their durability or
other performance features.

Flint sounds good but there are many sharp rocks on roads as well as
beer bottles that cut tires excellently, especially when wet.

> I trade 20 oysters and a flint knife for a pair of 4-Season tires.
> Ofcourse we don't take no stinking yankee dollars around here.

> Hope to pass you again on Jaufenpass next summer. ;-)

I haven't been on the Jaufen pass in many years. You must be thinking
of someone else.

> Ivar the Gruesome

Jobst Brandt

[[email protected]]

Ted who? writes:

> So Jobst, what do you ride on? The cheapest tires you can find, or
> is there some factor in the tires that is not all marketing? I am
> serious.

I have a stash of light colored bare-wall Avocet ROAD 20 tires that
meet my expectation although not as good as the original ones made by
IRC. I have been riding Campionato del Mundo Clement tubulars, then
Specialized Touring II tires that had to be rotated on 3000km trips in
the Alps, and then Avocet tires that were made to my preferences.
That is why there is a picture of "Tire testing" on Sheldon's web
site.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/

Jobst Brandt

[Luke]

In article >,
> wrote:

> > Certainly tires make a difference in ride feel. The stiffness of
> > the sidewalls is a good measure of how much drag you'll feel from
> > the tire. I had a set of cheapo Vittorias and it felt like I was
> > dragging an anchor. A good, supple sidewall (with the proper
> > pressure) and the whole bike will feel more lively.
>
> You mean RR is higher with thicker sidewalls (lower TPI) but the ride
> comfort is not perceptibly different, these damping losses being so
> small it takes careful measurement to characterize the difference in
> RR. You can most likely hear the difference because acoustic damping
> is significant for sound but that's literally in the noise for ride
> comfort.

A few years ago, I recall riding a tire (on the front wheel), IIRC it
was a Panaracer with a raised tread pattern, that would emit a
distinctively different tone when cornering. Strictly psychological, as
the tire displayed no aberrant cornering traits, yet I found it
unsettling enough to swap it out.

Luke

[Jan Lindstrom]

wrote:
> Ivar Hesselager writes:
>>Flintstone is an abundant natural ressource here in the unspoiled
>>viking reservation. Flint is good for cutting whales and bears skin
>>- but it also cuts the sidewalls of the GP3000's without mercy.
>
> Oh! How does it get on the sidewalls when riding on roads. If you
> must ride off road in rocky terrain, I suggest you use a suitably fat
> tire with sidewall rubber. We were discussing road tires.
>
> Flint sounds good but there are many sharp rocks on roads as well as
> beer bottles that cut tires excellently, especially when wet.

Here in the hinterlands that vikings never bothered to conquer, the
problem is crushed rock they use on multi-use tracks in winter (the MUTs
have it November through April). Crushing rock left over from road
works or building sites is sounder environmentally but the sharp flints
unfortunately cut racing tires. I know for sure they caused two
punctures, since the flint was still stuck through the casing.

I don't know whether the flints need an existing cut to work through the
tire casing or not, but the only remedy is to put some fatter tires on,
as Jobst says. The tires with protective strips haven't worked for me.

Jan Lindström

[Diablo Scott]

wrote:
> I haven't found many riders who speak well of Continental tires and
> their sidewalls. I suspect those who ride them around here got them
> on a special offer rather than choosing them for their durability or
> other performance features.
>

I'll speak well of them. Never had a sidewall issue - true, I don't
ride too many gravel roads, but some and when I do it's usually on
Continentals. I've run Ultra 2000s on my foul weather and commuting
bike for years. They seem to last longer than others I've used on the
same bike - I chose them for their durability, no special offers. Just
got a pair of the new Ultra Gatorskins; 170tpi - definitely not kite
string.

The one and only fatal (for the tire) sidewall failure I've ever had was
a Michelin Pro Race when I hit a rock taking a corner at speed -
probably would have done the same to any other light tire. Well I take
it back, I have had cheapie generic (P) tires whose casings just rotted
like compost in far too short a time.

[[email protected]]

<snip>
> In Denmark? I wasn't aware that American consumer syndrome had
> arrived there yet. Roads are roads around the world. The way you
> tell it, there are special tires for each nation's roads. Tires are
> manufactured everywhere in the world and have no national features.
>
> Jobst Brandt

Roads are roads, but there can be large differences in the materials
used to make those roads, and large differences in what sort of debris
is strewn around on those roads, often with national and/or geographic
boundaries. This can make a difference as to what sort of tires are
more or less durable. Denamrk is a wind-blown sand pancake with no
winter and smooth roads, so I thought flats would be a non-issue there
compared to the uncivilized conditions we have here in Norway a few
hundred kilometers away with pot holes, frost heaves, gravel, etc. Boy
was I wrong. The famous flint of Denmark gets ground up somehow into
tiny knives that work their way through tires. If I lived in Denmark I
very well might use entirely different tires than I do in Norway.

Joseph

PS: Ivar, I was just kidding about Denmark. It's a great place to ride
(and live I imagine), apart from the flint.

[Lou Holtman]

Ivar Hesselager wrote:
> 26 Mar 2006 01:48:15 GMT, > skrev:
>
>
>
>> I haven't been on the Jaufen pass in many years. You must be thinking
>> of someone else.
>>
>
>>
>> Jobst Brandt
>>
>
> As I wrote - on the way down from Timmelsjoch - not Jaufenpass. Must
> have been the summer of 2004.
>
> Still no recollection? Must have been some other grumpy old man.

Can Mr. Brandt not easy be recognized by his bike? A yellow one with a
huge headtube length

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu

[41]

Diablo Scott wrote:

> I'll speak well of them. Never had a sidewall issue - true, I don't
> ride too many gravel roads, but some and when I do it's usually on
> Continentals. I've run Ultra 2000s on my foul weather and commuting
> bike for years. They seem to last longer than others I've used on the
> same bike - I chose them for their durability, no special offers. Just
> got a pair of the new Ultra Gatorskins; 170tpi

Make that 57tpi. Continental cheats by counting all three layers and so
multiplying what would be the figures of other manufacturers by 3.

They have some good reason for doing this. For example, their Sport
1000s are only 21tpi, so it certainly sounds more competitve with other
manufacturers to say 84tpi (there's one extra thread at the edge).
Grand Prix and Ultra 2000, also 57tpi actual; Grand Prix "Super Sonic"
(NOT) 62tpi, Grand Prix 3000, 4 Season, 86tpi. Compare with quality
tires that are 33tpi for cheapies (Michelin Dynamic), 66tpi for
inexpensive or normal (Panaracer, IRC and Avocet >25mm), and 127 for
high-end, =25mm: IRC, Avocet, Michelin.

57tpi is reasonably close to 66, so UltraGatorskin, and the Ultra 2000,
are reasonable tires. I have a folding one in 28 as a spare, because it
came with brown sidewalls, slick carbon tread, and a $17.95 price tag.
New production has black sidewalls, which may also indicate they fixed
the problem with their formerly cotton chafing protectors unravelling
into kite string and wrapping around the cluster, "only under specific
environmental conditions", according to Conti reps.e

[41]

wrote:

> I have a stash of light colored bare-wall Avocet ROAD 20 tires that
> meet my expectation although not as good as the original ones made by
> IRC.

You've mentioned this before but do you mean blackwall? I thought all
tan sidewall production was Japan, and Korea was black. More
importantly, could you explain what the difference is between whichever
two it is that bothers you, whether in construction, perfomance, or
durability?

IRC out of bicycle tire business: I imagine you mean they
sub-contracted the production to a Korean entity, to whom they also
sold the equipment. A while back, when IRC changed their own Road
Winners and others to black wall, a friend with similar concerns wrote
them to ask a "say it isn't so" question. This was the reply from IRC
he forwarded:

==========================================
>Thanks you for your comments.
>
>The reason the IRC website shows only the all-black Roadwinner is in
>response to current fashion. 85% of the Roadwinner sales for 2004 were
>with the all-black configuration.
>
>However, the Roadwinner is still available in a skin-wall from several
>US distributors. I believe that it would not be difficult for your local
>shop to track down and order the size, color and sans-Kevlar belt
>options you prefer. I know for a fact that J&B importers distributes
>these tires in many sizes and colors.
>
>Here's are a few comments to chew on, however:
>* There might be a bit of a misconception regarding the sidewall
>colors, however. The black skin-wall tires are the same, exact material
>and construction as the skin-wall tires. Only the rubber compound color
>is different. There are some cheaper tires that employ a thicker
>sidewall material (or gumwall) available in both black and the yellowish
>color, but this is mostly reserved for low-end product construction.
>
>* Also, I believe it is actually easier to detect a worn out
>sidewall casing with the black skin-wall. The tire cords are light in
>color (almost the same as the skin-wall rubber compound color). When the
>sidewalls are worn, heavy creasing will occur on the black sidewalls,
>thus revealing the light-colored casing threads. The contrast of these
>two colors provides a good visual warning, although I must say that
>tread itself usually cracks far before the sidewalls blowout with IRC
>tires.
>
>* One final point, the all-black versions actually hold up better
>to ultra-violet exposure. The yellow-color rubber compound contains no
>carbon and is there for less stable.
>
>Thank you again for taking the time to write IRC.
>
>Regards,
>
>[representative@] | IRC North America
>2900 3rd Avenue North Seattle, WA 98109-1733 USA
>www.IRCTire.com
>
================================================== ============

[[email protected]]

Diablo Scott writes:

> I'll speak well of them. Never had a sidewall issue - true, I don't
> ride too many gravel roads, but some and when I do it's usually on
> Continentals. I've run Ultra 2000s on my foul weather and commuting
> bike for years. They seem to last longer than others I've used on
> the same bike - I chose them for their durability, no special
> offers. Just got a pair of the new Ultra Gatorskins; 170tpi

I don't believe a word of it. 170TPI is a 0.006" (1/170) diameter
thread, better than any silk track tire made. "Ultra Gatorskin" is
also Continental hyperbole of the worst kind. They have mediocre
tires but superlative marketeers who come up with these phrases and
names that appeal to the enthusiast.

Jobst Brandt

[[email protected]]

George King writes:

>> I have a stash of light colored bare-wall Avocet ROAD 20 tires that
>> meet my expectation although not as good as the original ones made
>> by IRC.

> You've mentioned this before but do you mean blackwall? I thought
> all tan sidewall production was Japan, and Korea was black. More
> importantly, could you explain what the difference is between
> whichever two it is that bothers you, whether in construction,
> performance, or durability?

As I said, I have purchased these a while back and still have enough
to go for a while. Then I'll have to see what's available. The black
casings have had flaws that caused bulges and the tread is
back-ass-wards, with a thin coating of the high durability rubber over
a thick body of the faster wearing rubber. This is visible as the
tire wears in that a rougher texture shows up. (Wear rate is
proportional to surface roughness according to Schallamach).

http://www.pse.umass.edu/crosby/researchprojects.html

> IRC out of bicycle tire business: I imagine you mean they
> sub-contracted the production to a Korean entity, to whom they also
> sold the equipment. A while back, when IRC changed their own Road
> Winners and others to black wall, a friend with similar concerns
> wrote them to ask a "say it isn't so" question. This was the reply
> from IRC he forwarded:

> ==========================================
# Thanks you for your comments.

# The reason the IRC website shows only the all-black Roadwinner is in
# response to current fashion. 85% of the Roadwinner sales for 2004
# were with the all-black configuration.

# However, the Roadwinner is still available in a skin-wall from
# several US distributors. I believe that it would not be difficult
# for your local shop to track down and order the size, color and
# sans-Kevlar belt options you prefer. I know for a fact that J&B
# importers distributes these tires in many sizes and colors.

# Here's are a few comments to chew on, however:

# * There might be a bit of a misconception regarding the sidewall
# colors, however. The black skin-wall tires are the same, exact
# material and construction as the skin-wall tires. Only the rubber
# compound color is different. There are some cheaper tires that
# employ a thicker sidewall material (or gumwall) available in both
# black and the yellowish color, but this is mostly reserved for
# low-end product construction.

# * Also, I believe it is actually easier to detect a worn out
# sidewall casing with the black skin-wall. The tire cords are light
# in color (almost the same as the skin-wall rubber compound
# color). When the sidewalls are worn, heavy creasing will occur on
# the black sidewalls, thus revealing the light-colored casing
# threads. The contrast of these two colors provides a good visual
# warning, although I must say that tread itself usually cracks far
# before the sidewalls blowout with IRC tires.

# * One final point, the all-black versions actually hold up better to
# ultra-violet exposure. The yellow-color rubber compound contains no
# carbon and is there for less stable.

# Thank you again for taking the time to write IRC.

# Regards,

# [representative@] | IRC North America
# 2900 3rd Avenue North Seattle, WA 98109-1733 USA
# www.IRCTire.com

> ================================================== ============

That's it. My tires don't live long enough to suffer ultra-violet damage.

Jobst Brandt

[jim beam]

wrote:
> Ivar Hesselager writes:
>
>
>>Conti's GP 3000 are not only famous of their vulnerability to
>>sidewall cuts, but also of their good clincher-like feel.
>
>
> This is a great collection, supple, lively, good feel, what's next in
> qualitative assessment of tires. This goes back to the dark ages of
> bicycle lore, or maybe this is the dark age of bicycle technology, aka
> fashion.

so what? there's been progress in tire compound technology in the last
couple of decades. if that is accompanied by hyperbole, what exactly
does that hurt? by jobstian logic, no progress could be made in any
arena because all new technology would be disregarded and ridiculed.

>
>
>>If the roads you are riding give you only the benefits and not the
>>problems of the GP 3000, you have a good reason to stick to one of
>>the best tires on the market, regarding feel.
>
>
>>Furthermore these tires are on sale most places these days, because
>>they are going out of the market soon, being substituted by GP 4000.
>
>
> Suggestively tough names like Armadillo, Vector-pro, GP 3000, along
> with colored rubber is a great skid backward for tires.

how exactly does colored rubber make any damned difference? carbon
black reinforced rubber is that color because it is latex mixed with
soot. go figure. silica reinforced rubber otoh is any color you want
it to be because silica is what color jobst? and silica compounds offer
/what/ advantages over carbon compounds jobst? you /are/ current on
your rubber technology aren't you - seeing as you seem to feel qualified
to lecture on this subject?

> Judging by
> how the roads are full of huge black, black windowed SUV's with four
> exhaust pipes that rumble to match the beat of the knobby tires,
> society cares more for appearance than ever. The more one spends, the
> better one stands among his peers.

eh? do you know what "hypocrite" means? you're the guy that exercises
/exactly/ the same f.you attitude among the bike community that your
much mentioned "black windowed SUV's" do among motorists.

>
>
>>I'm an old middleweight and (over)cautious rider - and I like the
>>feel of the Conti "4-Season" 25 mm version the best, because it has
>>better traction and makes me dare going faster through the curves -
>>especially on wet roads. And it also has reinforced sidewalls,
>>which means a lot on the roads I ride on.
>
>
> Where do you sense the "better traction" of these tires? I can't
> visualize and old middleweight in hard cornering at the limit of
> traction.

and there you go again. aren't you the guy that publishes pics of
himself doing that exact same thing?

>
>
>>But if I was riding your roads I would stick to those GP 3000's as
>>long as they are available.
>
>
> Ivar of Denmark
>
> In Denmark? I wasn't aware that American consumer syndrome had
> arrived there yet. Roads are roads around the world. The way you
> tell it, there are special tires for each nation's roads. Tires are
> manufactured everywhere in the world and have no national features.
>
> Jobst Brandt

[David L. Johnson]

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 10:45:56 -0800, jim beam wrote:

> so what? there's been progress in tire compound technology in the last
> couple of decades. if that is accompanied by hyperbole, what exactly
> does that hurt?

What makes you say that? What progress can you point to? You can't
compare to the tires of 30 years ago, and show improvement. Actually,
that's Jobst's claim to fame here; he worked to get Avocet to make a
clincher tire that could approximate (not exceed, approximate) the
performance of the Clement Campionato del Mundo.

The problem with bicycle tires is that the best material, silk casing, is
no longer available at prices we can afford. This is probably due to the
decline in slave labor.

As far as rubber compounds, it is highly debatable that there has been any
improvement. Until you see someone with serious money to invest, like
Nascar, using colored rubber tires, you won't have much of an argument for
their superiority. But we see colored rubber touted as the best thing
since sliced bread. It's marketing, not engineering, that wins in this
market.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Let's be straight here. If we find something we can't
_`\(,_ | understand we like to call it something you can't understand, or
(_)/ (_) | indeed even pronounce. -- Douglas Adams

[jim beam]

David L. Johnson wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 10:45:56 -0800, jim beam wrote:
>
>
>>so what? there's been progress in tire compound technology in the last
>>couple of decades. if that is accompanied by hyperbole, what exactly
>>does that hurt?
>
>
> What makes you say that? What progress can you point to? You can't
> compare to the tires of 30 years ago, and show improvement.

there's grip and there's rolling resistance. with carbon reinforced
rubbers, the hysteresis characteristics of the compound means you can
choose one or the other. with silica reinforced rubbers, you can have both.

> Actually,
> that's Jobst's claim to fame here; he worked to get Avocet to make a
> clincher tire that could approximate (not exceed, approximate) the
> performance of the Clement Campionato del Mundo.

jobst is solely focused on rolling resistance for a polished steel drum.
where does grip enter his research? and what are your local roads
paved with?

>
> The problem with bicycle tires is that the best material, silk casing, is
> no longer available at prices we can afford. This is probably due to the
> decline in slave labor.
>
> As far as rubber compounds, it is highly debatable that there has been any
> improvement. Until you see someone with serious money to invest, like
> Nascar, using colored rubber tires, you won't have much of an argument for
> their superiority. But we see colored rubber touted as the best thing
> since sliced bread. It's marketing, not engineering, that wins in this
> market.

so what about the marketing? the technology is a matter of fact, not
r.b.t ludditism. inability to seek or assimilate information is not a
basis for criticism. besides, silica rubbers are more expensive to
produce than carbon rubbers, so there's absolutely /no/ reason to use
them if marketing alone can sufficiently differentiate product.

[A Muzi]

> Diablo Scott writes:
>>I'll speak well of them. Never had a sidewall issue - true, I don't
>>ride too many gravel roads, but some and when I do it's usually on
>>Continentals. I've run Ultra 2000s on my foul weather and commuting
>>bike for years. They seem to last longer than others I've used on
>>the same bike - I chose them for their durability, no special
>>offers. Just got a pair of the new Ultra Gatorskins; 170tpi

wrote:
> I don't believe a word of it. 170TPI is a 0.006" (1/170) diameter
> thread, better than any silk track tire made. "Ultra Gatorskin" is
> also Continental hyperbole of the worst kind. They have mediocre
> tires but superlative marketeers who come up with these phrases and
> names that appeal to the enthusiast.

I don't have any relation ship with Continental but when I
see them on bikes here for service it's clear the thread
counts are very low - heck, even I can count up to 20 with a
ruler.
(My eyes cannot resolve 127tpi threads without a maginfier)
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tim McNamara]

In article >,
jim beam > wrote:

> David L. Johnson wrote:
> > On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 10:45:56 -0800, jim beam wrote:
> >
> >>so what? there's been progress in tire compound technology in the
> >>last couple of decades. if that is accompanied by hyperbole, what
> >>exactly does that hurt?
> >
> > What makes you say that? What progress can you point to? You
> > can't compare to the tires of 30 years ago, and show improvement.
>
> there's grip and there's rolling resistance. with carbon reinforced
> rubbers, the hysteresis characteristics of the compound means you can
> choose one or the other. with silica reinforced rubbers, you can
> have both.

So far that's not what's happened where the silica meets the road.
Especially in the wet. Been lots of discussion of this, check it out
sometime.

> > Actually,
> > that's Jobst's claim to fame here; he worked to get Avocet to make
> > a clincher tire that could approximate (not exceed, approximate)
> > the performance of the Clement Campionato del Mundo.
>
> jobst is solely focused on rolling resistance for a polished steel
> drum. where does grip enter his research? and what are your local
> roads paved with?

Good grief, jim. Can you pick tinier nits?

And if you haven't been paying attention, you'd know that Jobst tested
grip with a tilt table.

[jim beam]

Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article >,
> jim beam > wrote:
>
>
>>David L. Johnson wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 10:45:56 -0800, jim beam wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>so what? there's been progress in tire compound technology in the
>>>>last couple of decades. if that is accompanied by hyperbole, what
>>>>exactly does that hurt?
>>>
>>>What makes you say that? What progress can you point to? You
>>>can't compare to the tires of 30 years ago, and show improvement.
>>
>>there's grip and there's rolling resistance. with carbon reinforced
>>rubbers, the hysteresis characteristics of the compound means you can
>>choose one or the other. with silica reinforced rubbers, you can
>>have both.
>
>
> So far that's not what's happened where the silica meets the road.
> Especially in the wet. Been lots of discussion of this, check it out
> sometime.

i see anecdotal waffle, but where's the beef? i also see tires waxed
when new, but hey...

>
>
>>> Actually,
>>>that's Jobst's claim to fame here; he worked to get Avocet to make
>>>a clincher tire that could approximate (not exceed, approximate)
>>>the performance of the Clement Campionato del Mundo.
>>
>>jobst is solely focused on rolling resistance for a polished steel
>>drum. where does grip enter his research? and what are your local
>>roads paved with?
>
>
> Good grief, jim. Can you pick tinier nits?
>
> And if you haven't been paying attention, you'd know that Jobst tested
> grip with a tilt table.

he didn't test silica compounds because they weren't around then.

[41]

wrote:
> George King writes:
>
> >> I have a stash of light colored bare-wall Avocet ROAD 20 tires that
> >> meet my expectation although not as good as the original ones made
> >> by IRC.
>
> > You've mentioned this bef ore but do you mean blackwall? I thought
> > all tan sidewall production was Japan, and Korea was black. More
> > importantly, could you explain what the difference is between
> > whichever two it is that bothers you, whether in construction,
> > performa nce, or durability?
>
> As I said, I have purchased these a while back and still have enough
> to go for a while. Then I'll have to see what's available. The black
> casings have had flaws that caused bulges and the tread is
> back-ass-wards, with a th in coating of the high durability rubber over
> a thick body of the faster wearing rubber. This is visible as the
> tire wears in that a rougher texture shows up. (Wear rate is
> proportional to surface roughness according to Schallamach).

Youch. That's really bad. Here I was just finally convincing myself
that after my last tanwall Duro Plus wears out (only one pair left
after the current), it will be OK, because I will be able to get the
same thing in blackwall and I just won't look at them, but the tire
will be the same.

I assume you complained loudly to your friends at Avocet and received
an unsatisfactory response.i

[41]

Ivar Hesselager wrote:

> If the roads you are riding give you only the benefits and not the
> problems of the GP 3000, you have a good reason to stick to one of the
> best tires on the market, regarding feel.

You might consider examining the construction details of the GP3K, and
asking yourself, "do they really have the features that make for good
feel; or is this just a myth?"

You will see that they have: 86tpi casings. OK, but not as good as the
127tpi of truly high quality tires of several brands. Further, the
GP3Ks have two extra layers of this heavier fabric under the tread,
which will deaden the feel even more. As for the tread, it is entirely
unexceptional. Thus, if such differences really can be felt, the GP3K
is not going to be the tire with "one of the best feels". They look
nice, and have a very high quality finish, and I expect that is the
source of the claims that they feel so good. The rolling resistance
tests discussed here recently prove that they are slow and
energy-wasting compared to better durable tires, such as the Michelin
Carbon.


> I'm an old middleweight and (over)cautious rider - and I like the feel of
> the Conti "4-Season" 25 mm vesion the best, because it has better traction
> and makes me dare going faster through the curves - especially on wet
> roads. And it also has reinforced sidewalls, which means a lot on the
> roads I ride on.

So, you need good wet traction, and you have to deal with those flints
causing sidewall cuts. Is the Conti 4-S really the tire for you?
Consider:

It's also an 86tpi tire; nothing exceptional, and it also has those two
extra belts under the tread, robbing you of speed. The tread compound
is "MaxGripSilica optimized for wet weather grip", which means that it
has a higher proportion of carbon in the compound than the regular
silica. Their rolling resistance sucks too, like all Conti tires, so if
there were any benefit to the silica, you are not achieving it anyway.
And the grip tests that were part of those RR tests being discussed
recently also show that the grip is nothing to write home about. So,
you would be better off going to a tire with all carbon rubber, with
consequent better wet weather grip and better durability, and having
lower rolling resistance to boot: e.g Michelin Carbon, Avocet Road or
Duro. Even the Gatorskin would probably be better, since it too is
high-carbon rubber, with consequent better wet grip and durability, and
the sidewalls will be more durable because they are 57tpi instead of
86.

Now about those sidewall cuts. Conti's "sidewall reinforcement" is not
much to write home about either: a little bit of coarse-weave nylon
mesh. There is a more intelligent strategy: get a larger size tire,
like a 28, which will keep the sidewalls a little further off the
ground; and/or, a tire where the tread rubber wraps around higher than
it does on Contis, where seems to be a relatively narrow strip. Avocets
and IRCs are very good that way. This will give far more durable
sidewalls than any cheesy coarse-weave mesh. The approach of the
Michelin Carbon, with a fourth layer of 127tpi fabric bead to bead,
also seems more intelligent than Conti's approach.r

[David L. Johnson]

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 18:09:46 -0800, jim beam wrote:

> so what about the marketing? the technology is a matter of fact, not
> r.b.t ludditism.

Is it? I haven't heard that, actually.

> inability to seek or assimilate information is not a
> basis for criticism. besides, silica rubbers are more expensive to
> produce than carbon rubbers, so there's absolutely /no/ reason to use
> them if marketing alone can sufficiently differentiate product.f

Sure there is a reason to use them, independently of any facts, if a
blue stripe on the tire gets more of them sold. And the color does help
"differentiate" the product. If some pro racer is using blue tires, then
blue tires will get sold, independently of any real performance
improvement.

BTW, you said that rolling resistance was not everything, there was also
grip. True enough, but I don't think there is non-marketing data to
suggest that silica compounds are better in traction. There is also wear
and cut resistance, and silica-compound tires suck on both counts, and
everyone will attest to that, I bet.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "What am I on? I'm on my bike, six hours a day, busting my ass.
_`\(,_ | What are you on?" --Lance Armstrong
(_)/ (_) |

[Matt O'Toole]

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 14:23:42 +0000, jobst.brandt wrote:

> Diablo Scott writes:

>> I'll speak well of them. Never had a sidewall issue - true, I don't
>> ride too many gravel roads, but some and when I do it's usually on
>> Continentals. I've run Ultra 2000s on my foul weather and commuting
>> bike for years. They seem to last longer than others I've used on the
>> same bike - I chose them for their durability, no special offers. Just
>> got a pair of the new Ultra Gatorskins; 170tpi

> I don't believe a word of it. 170TPI is a 0.006" (1/170) diameter
> thread, better than any silk track tire made.

I don't believe it either. They probably multiply the tpi times three,
for the number of plies. I wanna see that 320tpi cloth those V-brand
tires are supposedly made of!

> "Ultra Gatorskin" is
> also Continental hyperbole of the worst kind. They have mediocre tires

They're not my favorites either but they work well enough for many. Some
higher mileage riders in our club swear by them, as a good value for a
decent riding tire. 4k miles on rough mountain roads for 20 bucks isn't
bad. They're always on sale somewhere. Most tires at the LBS last half
as long and cost twice as much. The sidewalls do unravel, but not if you
ride enough to wear the treads out first.

> but superlative marketeers who come up with these phrases and names that
> appeal to the enthusiast.

Other companies with supposedly better products should do as good a job
marketing them.

Matt O.

[RonSonic]

On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 01:44:29 -0500, "David L. Johnson" >
wrote:

>On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 18:09:46 -0800, jim beam wrote:
>
>> so what about the marketing? the technology is a matter of fact, not
>> r.b.t ludditism.
>
>Is it? I haven't heard that, actually.
>
>> inability to seek or assimilate information is not a
>> basis for criticism. besides, silica rubbers are more expensive to
>> produce than carbon rubbers, so there's absolutely /no/ reason to use
>> them if marketing alone can sufficiently differentiate product.f
>
>Sure there is a reason to use them, independently of any facts, if a
>blue stripe on the tire gets more of them sold. And the color does help
>"differentiate" the product. If some pro racer is using blue tires, then
>blue tires will get sold, independently of any real performance
>improvement.
>
>BTW, you said that rolling resistance was not everything, there was also
>grip. True enough, but I don't think there is non-marketing data to
>suggest that silica compounds are better in traction. There is also wear
>and cut resistance, and silica-compound tires suck on both counts, and
>everyone will attest to that, I bet.

This comment may come from my ignorance, please rectify it if so.

I don't recall the older tires being available in dual compound formats, I know
that is fairly common now and I know the tires work well. I don't know that they
are all that much better than the older carbon based tires, but I'm getting
excellent wear and traction and flat resistance.

Ron

[Paul Kopit]

On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 08:31:57 -0500, "prometheus7"
> wrote:

> I am curious
>though, as to whether different tires provide a different ride feel on a
>bike or whether it would all be in air pressure...a Conti would feel like
>everything else. I consider reliability a premium issue, so I don't want to
>risk a bunch of flats just to scratch my curiosity itch. I figured I would
>ask the collective wisdom of the group. Thoughts?

Use the same tire in a 700x25, if available, and put only 100 lbs. of
air in. The ride will change remarkably.

[jim beam]

David L. Johnson wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 18:09:46 -0800, jim beam wrote:
>
>
>>so what about the marketing? the technology is a matter of fact, not
>>r.b.t ludditism.
>
>
> Is it? I haven't heard that, actually.
>
>
>>inability to seek or assimilate information is not a
>>basis for criticism. besides, silica rubbers are more expensive to
>>produce than carbon rubbers, so there's absolutely /no/ reason to use
>>them if marketing alone can sufficiently differentiate product.f
>
>
> Sure there is a reason to use them, independently of any facts, if a
> blue stripe on the tire gets more of them sold. And the color does help
> "differentiate" the product. If some pro racer is using blue tires, then
> blue tires will get sold, independently of any real performance
> improvement.

criticizing color as a marketing gimmick completely misses the point.
if the rubber is colored, it's a silica compound. if it's black, it
could be silica, it could be carbon. on that basis, color does have value.

>
> BTW, you said that rolling resistance was not everything, there was also
> grip. True enough, but I don't think there is non-marketing data to
> suggest that silica compounds are better in traction. There is also wear
> and cut resistance, and silica-compound tires suck on both counts, and
> everyone will attest to that, I bet.

dude, you're way off base. there's absolutely no reason a silica rubber
should wear any less well than a carbon rubber. it's all a matter of
composition. but given r.b.t's customary lack of data and f.u.d.
propagation, i'm not surprised you've jumped to that conclusion.

[41]

wrote:

> As I said, I have purchased these a while back and still have enough
> to go for a while. Then I'll have to see what's available.

Allow me to save you some effort since I have been looking myself. I
can report that you will not find one single tire model that is not in
some way exasperating. Apart from the IRC Triathlon/Road Winner series,
which presumably suffers the same changes or worse, the closest
approximations to what you want all fail in important ways: low tpi
casings (33-57tpi), tread patterns, gimmicks, anti-puncture kludges.
The closest you will find to your ideal is the Michelin Carbon, which
is only available in Kevlar bead, does nto have a true featureless
tread, and has an extra casing ply bead to bead. Since we both do have
some time before our respective stashes run out, it may just be enough
if you would start cajoling your friends at Avocet to get their act
back together. I'm sure many of us would write in to concur. It's not
like any other manufacturer is going to step in.

Ó

[41]

jim beam wrote:

> criticizing color as a marketing gimmick completely misses the point.
> if the rubber is colored, it's a silica compound. if it's black, it
> c ould be silica, it could be carbon. on that basis, color does have value.

Indeed. It tells you you have the dumb, marketing-driven tires.

[RonSonic]

On 27 Mar 2006 19:29:12 -0800, "41" > wrote:

>
>jim beam wrote:
>
>> criticizing color as a marketing gimmick completely misses the point.
>> if the rubber is colored, it's a silica compound. if it's black, it
>> c ould be silica, it could be carbon. on that basis, color does have value.
>
>Indeed. It tells you you have the dumb, marketing-driven tires.

I've got a red and black pair. The two of them cost me less than $20 about 1400
miles and no flats ago. Guess I got ripped off.

Ron

[41]

RonSonic wrote:
> On 27 Mar 2006 19:29:12 -0800, "41" > wrote:
>
> >
> >jim beam wrote:
> >
> >> criticizing color as a marketing gimmick completely misses the point.
> >> if the rubber is colored, it's a silica compound. if it's black, it
> >> c ould be silica, it could be carbon. on that basis, color does have value.
> >
> >Indeed. It tells you you have the dumb, marketing-driven tires.
>
> I've got a red and black pair. The two of them cost me less than $20 about 1400
> mile s and no flats ago. Guess I got ripped off.

A Hummer is a dumb, marketing-driven vehicle. But if I got 1400 miles
out of two of them for less than $20, I wouldn't feel ripped off.ˇ

[Michael Press]

In article
om>,
"41" > wrote:

> wrote:
>
> > As I said, I have purchased these a while back and still have enough
> > to go for a while. Then I'll have to see what's available.
>
> Allow me to save you some effort since I have been looking myself. I
> can report that you will not find one single tire model that is not in
> some way exasperating. Apart from the IRC Triathlon/Road Winner series,
> which presumably suffers the same changes or worse, the closest
> approximations to what you want all fail in important ways: low tpi
> casings (33-57tpi), tread patterns, gimmicks, anti-puncture kludges.
> The closest you will find to your ideal is the Michelin Carbon, which
> is only available in Kevlar bead, does nto have a true featureless
> tread, and has an extra casing ply bead to bead. Since we both do have
> some time before our respective stashes run out, it may just be enough
> if you would start cajoling your friends at Avocet to get their act
> back together. I'm sure many of us would write in to concur. It's not
> like any other manufacturer is going to step in.

What about Avocet Carbon 12 tires. 127 tpi in the 25 mm
tire? Round profile, entirely slick. It is a good tire.

--
Michael Press

[41]

Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> om>,
> "41" > wrote:
>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > As I said, I have purchased these a while back and still have en ough
> > > to go for a while. Then I'll have to see what's available.
> >
> > Allow me to save you some effort since I have been looking myself. I
> > can report that you will not find one single tire model that is not in
> > some way exasperating. Apar t from the IRC Triathlon/Road Winner series,
> > which presumably suffers the same changes or worse, the closest
> > approximations to what you want all fail in important ways: low tpi
> > casings (33-57tpi), tread patterns, gimmicks, anti-puncture kludge s.
> > The closest you will find to your ideal is the Michelin Carbon, which
> > is only available in Kevlar bead, does nto have a true featureless
> > tread, and has an extra casing ply bead to bead. Since we both do have
> > some time before our respect ive stashes run out, it may just be enough
> > if you would start cajoling your friends at Avocet to get their act
> > back together. I'm sure many of us would write in to concur. It's not
> > like any other manufacturer is going to step in.
>
> What ab out Avocet Carbon 12 tires. 127 tpi in the 25 mm
> tire? Round profile, entirely slick. It is a good tire.

Yes, indeed, this is the one the discussion was about. Jobst already
uses that model and I already use that same one in 32.

[Ivar Hesselager]

26 Mar 2006 21:32:01 -0800, 41 > skrev:


> So, you need good wet traction, and you have to deal with those flints
> causing sidewall cuts. Is the Conti 4-S really the tire for you?
> Consider:
>
> It's also an 86tpi tire; nothing exceptional, and it also has those two
> extra belts under the tread, robbing you of speed. The tread compound
> is "MaxGripSilica optimized for wet weather grip", which means that it
> has a higher proportion of carbon in the compound than the regular
> silica. Their rolling resistance sucks too, like all Conti tires, so if
> there were any benefit to the silica, you are not achieving it anyway.
> And the grip tests that were part of those RR tests being discussed
> recently also show that the grip is nothing to write home about. So,
> you would be better off going to a tire with all carbon rubber, with
> consequent better wet weather grip and better durability, and having
> lower rolling resistance to boot: e.g Michelin Carbon, Avocet Road or
> Duro. Even the Gatorskin would probably be better, since it too is
> high-carbon rubber, with consequent better wet grip and durability, and
> the sidewalls will be more durable because they are 57tpi instead of
> 86.
>
> Now about those sidewall cuts. Conti's "sidewall reinforcement" is not
> much to write home about either: a little bit of coarse-weave nylon
> mesh. There is a more intelligent strategy: get a larger size tire,
> like a 28, which will keep the sidewalls a little further off the
> ground; and/or, a tire where the tread rubber wraps around higher than
> it does on Contis, where seems to be a relatively narrow strip. Avocets
> and IRCs are very good that way. This will give far more durable
> sidewalls than any cheesy coarse-weave mesh. The approach of the
> Michelin Carbon, with a fourth layer of 127tpi fabric bead to bead,
> also seems more intelligent than Conti's approach.r
>
>

Very informative and well argued posting. Respect.

I do beliveve I could get even better tires than the ones I have.
But I am down to a couple of flats each year with my GP 4 Season - with
9000 km behind me last year I find that quite satisfying. I know it's no
basis of
statistics, but I have no need to find a tire with better flat resistance.

I newer fell thru slipping on wet roads - exept on a painted stripe many
years ago. I fell for a number of other reasons, though.

I do feel more confident on wet road curves with these GP 4-season.
Possibly because of myth, but more likely because of the feel of grip I
have thru years of experience with this tire. Though I am pushing my
courage going down the mountain road curves, I seem to be well within the
limit of traction, since I never fell. A braver man might find the limit
by going past it.

On the Tour Magazin recent test of tires (debatable I know), the Michelin
Carbon did well, but in regards to traction not at well as the Continental
Ultra Gatorskin. In addition it is heavier and difficult to mount.

The optimal tire is a compromise between primarily weight, RR, traction,
punture resistance, secondarily price and availability as well. I will
leave out looks and hype in this context. But you just can't have it all
in one tire.
Feel is another dimension. It is not included in the test. Its a personal
relation between you and your tire. Myth as well as taste and experience
is part of the feel.

So my conclusion is:
1)Find a good tire
2)that fits the roads you ride
3a)if you like it, get well acquainted with it thru years of experience.
3b)if you dont like it, go back to 1)
4)and stick to it.

So I am back to my recommandation to the original poster. If he has
practically no flats and a good feel with the GP3000 tire, he has good
reasons to stick to it.

Ivar of Denmark


--
Sendt med Operas banebrydende nyhedsgruppe-
og e-postklient: http://www.opera.com/m2/

[41]

Ivar Hesselager wrote:

> On the Tour Magazin recent test of tires (debatable I know), the Michelin
> Carbon did well, but in regards to traction not at well as the Continental
> Ultra Gatorskin.

These two tires have the same tread compound (high-carbon rubber), the
difference being the UG is smooth while the MC is filligreed. That
accounts for the latter's somewhat poorer grip when new.;

[Juhani Simola]

"41" > writes:

> These two tires have the same tread compound (high-carbon rubber), the
> difference being the UG is smooth while the MC is filligreed. That
> accounts for the latter's somewhat poorer grip when new.;

I have both tires here and I don't think they are made of same rubber
compound. The UG's feels softer and stickier to hand. Also, the Michelin
is as smooth as you can get while the UG's have some cosmetic grooves.

Juhani

[Sandy]

Dans le message de ,
Juhani Simola > a réfléchi, et puis a
déclaré :
> "41" > writes:
>
>> These two tires have the same tread compound (high-carbon rubber),
>> the difference being the UG is smooth while the MC is filligreed.
>> That accounts for the latter's somewhat poorer grip when new.;
>
> I have both tires here and I don't think they are made of same rubber
> compound. The UG's feels softer and stickier to hand. Also, the
> Michelin is as smooth as you can get while the UG's have some
> cosmetic grooves.
>
> Juhani

Sorry, but it adds nothing to 41's perception when you confuse him with
facts.
After all, he is the stalwart defender of 30 year-old tires. Kept them in
his basement, in a freezer, in vacuum-sealed black plastic bags. If he's
that proud to cite his QI, let him.
--
Sandy
--
Il n'est aucune sorte de sensation qui soit plus vive
que celle de la douleur ; ses impressions sont sûres,
elles ne trompent point comme celles du plaisir.
- de Sade.

[41]

Juhani Simola wrote:
> "41" > writes:
>
> > These two tires have the same tread compound (high-carbon rubber), the
> > difference being the UG is smooth while the MC is filligreed. That
> > accounts for the latter's somewhat poore r grip when new.;
>
> I have both tires here and I don't think they are made of same rubber
> compound. The UG's feels softer and stickier to hand. Also, the Michelin
> is as smooth as you can get while the UG's have some cosmetic grooves.

I have not seen this year's version (Krylion) but I did handle last
year's and the tread was dissappointingly filligreed (like painted with
a wire brush), and the description at the time in the Michelin brochure
likewise spoke about its specially textured surface. I agree though
that the MC does feel harder at first than last year's UG, however they
are both high-carbon rubber. I should have said "same basic". The UG
pattern has changed from last year's to this, this year there are
hardly any features, and they are all away on the side.e