Re: Another sizing question - Hybrids / Touring

[landotter]

Seems to be mainly a perception issue. People assume that all drop bar
bikes envolve a hunched over position. I find stricly flat bar bikes to
be very uncomfortable for distance with only one hand position. Add bar
ends, and they're tolerable. Add trekking bars, and you have a bikes
that's just as comfy as a drop bar model, with a nice wide hand
position for leverage when climbing.

I'm thinking about getting a set for the city bike, though I'm having
issues with the fact that they're just plain goofy looking:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000ETWGTA/104-8770707-3234328?v=glance&n=3375251

afaik, the open ends are towards the rider and are where you mount the
shifter/brake.

[Tosspot]

landotter wrote:
> Seems to be mainly a perception issue. People assume that all drop bar
> bikes envolve a hunched over position. I find stricly flat bar bikes to
> be very uncomfortable for distance with only one hand position. Add bar
> ends, and they're tolerable. Add trekking bars, and you have a bikes
> that's just as comfy as a drop bar model, with a nice wide hand
> position for leverage when climbing.
>
> I'm thinking about getting a set for the city bike, though I'm having
> issues with the fact that they're just plain goofy looking:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000ETWGTA/104-8770707-3234328?v=glance&n=3375251
>
> afaik, the open ends are towards the rider and are where you mount the
> shifter/brake.

You're correct in the mounting, although I see no real reason you
couldn't do it the other way. Very comfortable, I use them on a city
bike and like them. That's all really. Btw, goofy is in the eye of the
beholder :-)

[Peter Cole]

landotter wrote:
> Seems to be mainly a perception issue. People assume that all drop bar
> bikes envolve a hunched over position. I find stricly flat bar bikes to
> be very uncomfortable for distance with only one hand position. Add bar
> ends, and they're tolerable. Add trekking bars, and you have a bikes
> that's just as comfy as a drop bar model, with a nice wide hand
> position for leverage when climbing.
>
> I'm thinking about getting a set for the city bike, though I'm having
> issues with the fact that they're just plain goofy looking:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000ETWGTA/104-8770707-3234328?v=glance&n=3375251
>
> afaik, the open ends are towards the rider and are where you mount the
> shifter/brake.
>

I don't get that shape at all. I have a pair of Scott AT-3's on my fixer
: <http://sheldonbrown.com/scott.html> -- similar concept, but totally
different shape.

[landotter]

Peter Cole wrote:
> landotter wrote:
> > Seems to be mainly a perception issue. People assume that all drop bar
> > bikes envolve a hunched over position. I find stricly flat bar bikes to
> > be very uncomfortable for distance with only one hand position. Add bar
> > ends, and they're tolerable. Add trekking bars, and you have a bikes
> > that's just as comfy as a drop bar model, with a nice wide hand
> > position for leverage when climbing.
> >
> > I'm thinking about getting a set for the city bike, though I'm having
> > issues with the fact that they're just plain goofy looking:
> >
> > http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000ETWGTA/104-8770707-3234328?v=glance&n=3375251
> >
> > afaik, the open ends are towards the rider and are where you mount the
> > shifter/brake.
> >
>
> I don't get that shape at all.

With my elite image manipulation skills, you will get the shape.

(warning, professional level graphics below)

http://static.flickr.com/46/118227997_412a32fe9b_o.png

[Peter Cole]

landotter wrote:
> Peter Cole wrote:
>> landotter wrote:
>>> Seems to be mainly a perception issue. People assume that all drop bar
>>> bikes envolve a hunched over position. I find stricly flat bar bikes to
>>> be very uncomfortable for distance with only one hand position. Add bar
>>> ends, and they're tolerable. Add trekking bars, and you have a bikes
>>> that's just as comfy as a drop bar model, with a nice wide hand
>>> position for leverage when climbing.
>>>
>>> I'm thinking about getting a set for the city bike, though I'm having
>>> issues with the fact that they're just plain goofy looking:
>>>
>>> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000ETWGTA/104-8770707-3234328?v=glance&n=3375251
>>>
>>> afaik, the open ends are towards the rider and are where you mount the
>>> shifter/brake.
>>>
>> I don't get that shape at all.
>
> With my elite image manipulation skills, you will get the shape.
>
> (warning, professional level graphics below)
>
> http://static.flickr.com/46/118227997_412a32fe9b_o.png
>

I understand the shape (although it was unclear which way was "front"),
it is the "utility" of the shape I don't get. Why bring your hands back
to the steer tube? How do you climb out of the saddle without hitting
your knees? Sorry, the shape just doesn't make any sense to me.

[landotter]

Peter Cole wrote:
> landotter wrote:

> > http://static.flickr.com/46/118227997_412a32fe9b_o.png
> >
>
> I understand the shape (although it was unclear which way was "front"),
> it is the "utility" of the shape I don't get. Why bring your hands back
> to the steer tube?

To get more upright for a change of pace.

>How do you climb out of the saddle without hitting
> your knees?

set teh bar up properly. :P It could be a potential problem with some
set ups, but I wouldn't put those bars on any bike I spend a lot of
time out of the saddle. Good for a ubility bike I reckon.

>Sorry, the shape just doesn't make any sense to me.

Makes sense to a huge number of Brits, Aussies, and Europeans where
variants have been popular on touring or "trekking" bikes for years.
Often called "butterfly bars" unless my UK contacts are yankin' my
chain.

I haven't ridden them myself, but might get a set in the coming months
for the shopping scoot. I'll be sure to report back any shortcomings or
benefits.

Still think they look goofy. :-D

[Sorni]

landotter wrote:
> With my elite image manipulation skills, you will get the shape.
>
> (warning, professional level graphics below)
>
> http://static.flickr.com/46/118227997_412a32fe9b_o.png


Looks like a cross between a mutant pogo stick and an IUD!

Bill "Rorschach! It's a Bat!" S.

[Matt O'Toole]

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 14:46:55 -0500, Peter Cole wrote:

> landotter wrote:

>> Peter Cole wrote:

>>> landotter wrote:

>>>> Seems to be mainly a perception issue. People assume that all drop
>>>> bar bikes envolve a hunched over position. I find stricly flat bar
>>>> bikes to be very uncomfortable for distance with only one hand
>>>> position. Add bar ends, and they're tolerable. Add trekking bars, and
>>>> you have a bikes that's just as comfy as a drop bar model, with a
>>>> nice wide hand position for leverage when climbing.
>>>>
>>>> I'm thinking about getting a set for the city bike, though I'm having
>>>> issues with the fact that they're just plain goofy looking:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000ETWGTA/104-8770707-3234328?v=glance&n=3375251
>>>>
>>>> afaik, the open ends are towards the rider and are where you mount
>>>> the shifter/brake.
>>>>
>>> I don't get that shape at all.
>>
>> With my elite image manipulation skills, you will get the shape.
>>
>> (warning, professional level graphics below)
>>
>> http://static.flickr.com/46/118227997_412a32fe9b_o.png

> I understand the shape (although it was unclear which way was "front"),
> it is the "utility" of the shape I don't get. Why bring your hands back
> to the steer tube? How do you climb out of the saddle without hitting
> your knees? Sorry, the shape just doesn't make any sense to me.

Nor to me either.

I'm well aware of the limitations of flat bars, even with barends. On
long, flat road sections, or especially rail trails, my arms go dead no
matter what I do. The only relief is from sitting up and riding no-hands.
I don't have this problem with drop bars.

I've tried the loop-style aero-combo MTB bars like the Scott AT-4, but
there's no substitute for a drop bar -- a compromise arrived at through a
century of evolution. Before suspension became popular (raising speeds
over rough terrain), many top MTB riders were still using drop bars. Also,
there were still MTB stage races then, which often included long road
sections, favoring drop bars.

Moustache bars are favored by a few top riders, including enduro champ
John Stamstad. In a way they're like flattened-out drop bars. But I
don't think they help much because what matters most is being able to vary
your position vertically. For this they're better than a MTB bar, but not
nearly as good as a drop bar.

However a moustache bar is better than the bar referred to above. Used
with a shorter stem, it gives an upright position held close to the stem
or at the ends, good climbing leverage at the ends plus access to barend
shifters, and good aerodynamics as well as good bracing (for rough terrain
and braking) in the hooks.

Here's an explanation of moustache bars, including
advantages/disadvantages compared to other types:

http://www.stanford.edu/~dru/moustache.html

For hybrid use, the type of dirt riding determines the best bar for me. If
it's at all technical, then a flat (MTB) bar with barends is best. But
for easy dirt roads and rail trails, a drop bar is better. Currently,
with no good hybrid solution, I just suffer with my MTB on rail trails,
and spend a lot of time riding no-hands!

Matt O.

[Peter Cole]

Matt O'Toole wrote:
http://www.stanford.edu/~dru/moustache.html
>
> For hybrid use, the type of dirt riding determines the best bar for me. If
> it's at all technical, then a flat (MTB) bar with barends is best. But
> for easy dirt roads and rail trails, a drop bar is better. Currently,
> with no good hybrid solution, I just suffer with my MTB on rail trails,
> and spend a lot of time riding no-hands!

That's what I do, too. Fortunately, almost all my MTB riding is
"technical" off-road. I have seen a couple of MTB's set up with flat
bars & aerobars. That seemed like an interesting combo for road riding.

[Matt O'Toole]

On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 06:31:06 -0500, Peter Cole wrote:

>> For hybrid use, the type of dirt riding determines the best bar for me.
>> If it's at all technical, then a flat (MTB) bar with barends is best.
>> But for easy dirt roads and rail trails, a drop bar is better.
>> Currently, with no good hybrid solution, I just suffer with my MTB on
>> rail trails, and spend a lot of time riding no-hands!
>
> That's what I do, too. Fortunately, almost all my MTB riding is
> "technical" off-road. I have seen a couple of MTB's set up with flat
> bars & aerobars. That seemed like an interesting combo for road riding.

It used to be common when there were still a lot of long, point to point
MTB races, which often included long road sections. If you look at MTB
mags from the late 80s and early 90s you'll see a lot of loop bars and
add-on aero bars. Some top riders, like Tomac, still used drops too. But
then MTB racing changed to dirt crits held at ski areas, and no one needed
to be aero anymore. Even riders with >20mi road commutes to the
trailheads followed race fashion, and all of a sudden these aero setups
were nowhere to be seen.

Personally I'd like to have a drop bar bike with room for fatter tires and
fenders, either a cross bike, or a road bike with good clearance.

I salute Grant Peterson, et al for offering and encouraging bikes that
don't fit the mainstream mold, but are actually a better compromise for
the kind of riding most people do -- or want to do -- like the originator
of this thread.

Matt O.