Full suspension type question

[Michael Halliwell]

Hi gang,

I had posted this a while ago on the A.M-B side to get more of the
"don't care how it works, just care that it works" type of opinions, but
now I'm going to give the tech side a run....

My question is about multi-link vs single pivot rear suspension designs
on modern FS mountain bikes. I'm not considering a VP system at present,
but rather a 4 link design (not a Horst link, but another type of 4 link
type i.e Jamis) vs a single pivot style (a la Gary Fisher)

Ok, I know there are some fundamental differences in the operation and
maintenance of both types of suspension, but from your experience, which
is more bullet-proof? flexes less? connects/climbs better? is easier to
work on? or leaves your legs more (or less) like rubber at the end of a
long ride?

What I'm really after is some information beyond what I'll get from a
couple test rides as I look to get onto a FS bike this year. I'm not
giving lot of detail about my style of riding, weight or anything like
that for a good reason....it seems that there have been variations on
both single pivots and multi-links put out for all styles/weights of
riders. What I'm after is the real-world experience type of answer not
some hypothetical based solely on my stats. I'm willing to post my
"stats", but I'd need some justification given the variety I've seen at
the LBS in both of these systems.

Thanks in advance,

Psycho Mike

[[email protected]]

Dear P. Mike,

I'm partial to a multi-link design, myself. On a cheap bike, though,
go for the simplest sytem possible. In either case I do think you
should go for a bike that has:

A complete seat tube running all the way from the top tube to the BB
shell, a la Santa Cruz, etc.
A main pivot that is as close to the chainline (midll ring, middle gear
on cluster) as possible
A main pivot that is forward of the BB, the farther forward the better.
Big link bearings/bushings
Good, stiff swing arm, rocker, and link
A real good shock, with a lockout.

Good luck

jn

[Skippy]

"Michael Halliwell" > wrote in message
news:xx2Xf.202902$sa3.201178@pd7tw1no...
> Hi gang,
>
> I had posted this a while ago on the A.M-B side to get more of the "don't
> care how it works, just care that it works" type of opinions, but now I'm
> going to give the tech side a run....
>
> My question is about multi-link vs single pivot rear suspension designs on
> modern FS mountain bikes. I'm not considering a VP system at present, but
> rather a 4 link design (not a Horst link, but another type of 4 link type
> i.e Jamis) vs a single pivot style (a la Gary Fisher)
>
> Ok, I know there are some fundamental differences in the operation and
> maintenance of both types of suspension, but from your experience, which
> is more bullet-proof? flexes less? connects/climbs better? is easier to
> work on? or leaves your legs more (or less) like rubber at the end of a
> long ride?
>
> What I'm really after is some information beyond what I'll get from a
> couple test rides as I look to get onto a FS bike this year. I'm not
> giving lot of detail about my style of riding, weight or anything like
> that for a good reason....it seems that there have been variations on both
> single pivots and multi-links put out for all styles/weights of riders.
> What I'm after is the real-world experience type of answer not some
> hypothetical based solely on my stats. I'm willing to post my "stats", but
> I'd need some justification given the variety I've seen at the LBS in both
> of these systems.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Psycho Mike

I've ridden Gaint's NRS and Maestro, Trek's Fuel, and currently a Speccy
Stumpjumper FSR 120.
In general, 4-bar links are preferable to me. Why are you not looking at
Horst link systems? For actual suspension there's little to touch it (FSR).
Having said that, VPP systems have plenty of fans. I was very impressed
with the Maestro (Giant Reign). Maestro and FSR both climb very well.
Neither bob much, but then again I spin at 95RPM plus.

Single pivots are usable if the shock is very good. Since there is no way
of making them independant of pedalling, platfom damping and preferably a
lock-out are needed. I'm biased as the only single pivots i've ridden are
cheap nasties.

As for maintenance; Cartridge bearings good, bushings bad, hardtail best!
It all depends on how muddy it is where you are and how much you love
cleaning bikes. I ride in the UK, home of mud. Over winter I ride a
hardtail then back on the Speccy when the sun comes out.

The most important thing is to ride the bike. Go to your LBS! Take your
time and let the guys in the shop fiddle with the set-up until it's working
properly. Suspension will behave differently for different people, so it
will take a little time to get things close to correct for you. Take a
packet of biscuits, it works wonders.

Skippy
E&OE

[Michael Halliwell]

wrote:
> Dear P. Mike,
>
> I'm partial to a multi-link design, myself. On a cheap bike, though,
> go for the simplest sytem possible. In either case I do think you
> should go for a bike that has:
>
> A complete seat tube running all the way from the top tube to the BB
> shell, a la Santa Cruz, etc.
> A main pivot that is as close to the chainline (midll ring, middle gear
> on cluster) as possible
> A main pivot that is forward of the BB, the farther forward the better.
> Big link bearings/bushings
> Good, stiff swing arm, rocker, and link
> A real good shock, with a lockout.
>
> Good luck
>
> jn
>

Yeah...in coming off a hardtail and with the riding I do, the two models
that are tops on my test ride list are both full seat tube.

The shocks are a different matter....neither has lockout, but one has
stable platform valving (the single pivot).

Thanks for the feedback,

Psycho Mike

[Michael Halliwell]

Skippy wrote:

> I've ridden Gaint's NRS and Maestro, Trek's Fuel, and currently a Speccy
> Stumpjumper FSR 120.
> In general, 4-bar links are preferable to me. Why are you not looking at
> Horst link systems? For actual suspension there's little to touch it (FSR).
> Having said that, VPP systems have plenty of fans. I was very impressed
> with the Maestro (Giant Reign). Maestro and FSR both climb very well.
> Neither bob much, but then again I spin at 95RPM plus.

I'm not discounting a Horst link system.... I've looked at a Giant and
Specialized with that suspension system. Main problem I'm finding is the
outfitting of the bikes with the Horst link that are available to me.
They are either fairly light (I'm not, so I need a beefier bike) or
priced significantly higher (in some cases 25% more for the same level
of components). In terms of VPP's, I tend to live by the KISS
principle....I'd rather something easier for my 1st FS bike.


>
> Single pivots are usable if the shock is very good. Since there is no way
> of making them independant of pedalling, platfom damping and preferably a
> lock-out are needed. I'm biased as the only single pivots i've ridden are
> cheap nasties.

I'm coming in clean with no significant FS background. I am, however,
only looking at the larger brand name manufacturers and no "cheap-o" stuff.

>
> As for maintenance; Cartridge bearings good, bushings bad, hardtail best!
> It all depends on how muddy it is where you are and how much you love
> cleaning bikes. I ride in the UK, home of mud. Over winter I ride a
> hardtail then back on the Speccy when the sun comes out.

I'm after more of a "do it all" (ok, I know this isn't possible, but as
close as I can get). I do some commuting with my current hardtail (some
asphalt, mostly man made trails with gravel surface, some single track)
as well as chasing trails. Generally speaking, we're reasonably dry in
the summer and cold in the winter..spring and fall is when we can get
wet (I'm in Alberta, Canada). I don't mind cleaning my bike as it gives
me a better chance to inspect it for damage / maintenance issues, but I
don't want to spend more time cleaning than riding.

>
> The most important thing is to ride the bike. Go to your LBS! Take your
> time and let the guys in the shop fiddle with the set-up until it's working
> properly. Suspension will behave differently for different people, so it
> will take a little time to get things close to correct for you. Take a
> packet of biscuits, it works wonders.

Yeah, that's my game plan...I've got a short list and will be riding
them all in the coming days and weeks. I'me just hoping to arm myself
with a little more info first (i.e. it may ride well and feel good, but
because of the suspension design, it'll be a b!+c to work on / clean and
so forth)

Thanks for the reply,

Psycho Mike

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per Michael Halliwell:
> I'm not
>giving lot of detail about my style of riding, weight or anything like
>that for a good reason....it seems that there have been variations on
>both single pivots and multi-links put out for all styles/weights of
>riders.

I think your riding style could be relevant at the low end.

My style (or lack thereof...) is somewhere between incompetent and pathetic.
FS-wise, I've been trough a C-Dale Jekyll (single pivot) and an Ellsworth Isis
(single pivot). I am currently riding a bike with the Maverick monolink.

I like the monolink the best because it bobs the least and the frame's big
enough for me - but to be truthful, I enjoyed them all.

OTOH, an advanced rider would probably have some good reason to look down on at
least one of those choices.
--
PeteCresswell

[Michael Halliwell]

(PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Per Michael Halliwell:
>
>>I'm not
>>giving lot of detail about my style of riding, weight or anything like
>>that for a good reason....it seems that there have been variations on
>>both single pivots and multi-links put out for all styles/weights of
>>riders.
>
>
> I think your riding style could be relevant at the low end.
>

Fair enough. I'm a little more on the XC end of the spectrum of all
mountain riding. I've got a backgound of enduro type riding on dirt
bikes and it has transferred to my mtb riding. My mtb skills are coming
up quickly and, as such, so is my willingness to get a little more
adventurous in my riding.

I'm not one for really big air, but I will take air as required for fun
and speed. I like the occasional epic ride (this year will be an 80km
run in the river valley I live near). Because the bike will be the only
one is my stable, it has to be able to handle the monotony of on road
riding as part of my commute as well.

I've been thinking about 5" travel for my needs, but will look at 4-6"
range bikes. Because of where I live (city bisected by a river valley
and only a few hours from the Alberta Rockies) something that climbs
well is a definite asset.

Also, I'm a heavier rider (230-240 lb), so a 27 lb racing frame probably
isn't the best as I become more agressive in my riding style.

Hope it helps,

Psycho Mike

[meb]

Wrote:
> Dear P. Mike,
>
> <snip>
>
> I'm partial to a multi-link design, myself. On a cheap bike, though,
> go for the simplest sytem possible. In either case I do think you
> should go for a bike that has:
>
>
>
> A complete seat tube running all the way from the top tube to the BB
> shell, a la Santa Cruz, etc.
> <snip>
>
> Good luck
>
> jn

Could you elaborate on the cons that lead to your aversion of this
design?


--
meb