650 rims on a 700 frame

[[email protected]]

Im building a commuter with an older TREK frame. The frame doesn't have
clearance for any more than 700x28 tires. I would like to use 32-35mm
tires. Has anyone ever used 650c wheels on a 700c frame successfully?
How does braking work? Thanks.

[landotter]

Shouldn't be a problem. Just do some measuring. I think you'll need
16mm more brake reach, so either long reach brakes or even BMX calipers
will do the trick.

[Hank Wirtz]

wrote in news:1143895014.137761.49120
@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

> Im building a commuter with an older TREK frame. The frame doesn't have
> clearance for any more than 700x28 tires. I would like to use 32-35mm
> tires. Has anyone ever used 650c wheels on a 700c frame successfully?
> How does braking work? Thanks.
>

650c tires usually only come in skinny widths, no more than 23mm. 650b is
probably what you want. It's a slightly larger bead seat diameter, so
braking is a slightly smaller hassle. Most 650b converts wind up using Dia-
Compe 750 centerpulls.

650b tires usually go between 30-38mm wide (although there are probably
narrower and wider examples).

Rivendell and Harris are probably the two main shops that sell the rims &
tires:

http://www.rivbike.com
http://www.harriscyclery.com/26

Sheldon has an excellent article on converting to 650b:
http://sheldonbrown.com/650b.html

Good luck!

[bfd]

"Hank Wirtz" > wrote in message
6...
> wrote in news:1143895014.137761.49120
> @z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Im building a commuter with an older TREK frame. The frame doesn't have
> > clearance for any more than 700x28 tires. I would like to use 32-35mm
> > tires. Has anyone ever used 650c wheels on a 700c frame successfully?
> > How does braking work? Thanks.
> >
>
> 650c tires usually only come in skinny widths, no more than 23mm. 650b is
> probably what you want. It's a slightly larger bead seat diameter, so
> braking is a slightly smaller hassle. Most 650b converts wind up using
Dia-
> Compe 750 centerpulls.
>
This is incorrect, there is A single 650C (571mm diameter) tire that comes
wider than 23mm, its the 28mm wide Terry Tellus ST (650Cx28 or 28-571):

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/tires/571.html

http://www.terrybicycles.com/detail.html?c=Bike+Parts+%26+Accessories&sc=Ter
ry+Specific+Parts&item_no=24000

If you want wider than 28mm, then converting to 650B (584mm diameter) tires
is an option. You will need to do some measuring to determine how much
longer a brake you'll need. Fortunately, Tektro is coming out with a longer
dual pivot brake!

> 650b tires usually go between 30-38mm wide (although there are probably
> narrower and wider examples).
>
> Rivendell and Harris are probably the two main shops that sell the rims &
> tires:
>
> http://www.rivbike.com
> http://www.harriscyclery.com/26
>
> Sheldon has an excellent article on converting to 650b:
> http://sheldonbrown.com/650b.html
>

[[email protected]]

since my goal is to run wider than 28mm tires, is it possible to use
26" rims. Are any brake calipers made that will work with extra long
reach?

[[email protected]]

since my goal is to run wider than 28mm tires, is it possible to use
26" rims. Are any brake calipers made that will work with extra long
reach?

[Ted Bennett]

wrote:

> Im building a commuter with an older TREK frame. The frame doesn't have
> clearance for any more than 700x28 tires. I would like to use 32-35mm
> tires. Has anyone ever used 650c wheels on a 700c frame successfully?
> How does braking work? Thanks.

Not too well, as you'd have to drag your feet.

650C wheels rims are roughly one inch smaller radius than 700C, so your
present rim brakes will grab the tire rather than the rim. Not good.

Longer brake reach might work, but it may not be possible. Drum or disc
brakes would work fine.

--
Ted Bennett

[Hank Wirtz]

"bfd" > wrote in
:


>> 650c tires usually only come in skinny widths, no more than 23mm.
<SNIP>
>>
> This is incorrect, there is A single 650C (571mm diameter) tire that
> comes wider than 23mm, its the 28mm wide Terry Tellus ST (650Cx28 or
> 28-571):

Hence the qualifier "usually." 650Cs were originally a balloon tire size,
but tires that size are rare, too.

Actually, I saw that tire on Harris's site about five minutes after
posting, and thought, "Crap, some contrarian's gonna give me grief." Thanks
for that. :)

[bfd]

"Hank Wirtz" > wrote in message
6...
> "bfd" > wrote in
> :
>
>
> >> 650c tires usually only come in skinny widths, no more than 23mm.
> <SNIP>
> >>
> > This is incorrect, there is A single 650C (571mm diameter) tire that
> > comes wider than 23mm, its the 28mm wide Terry Tellus ST (650Cx28 or
> > 28-571):
>
> Hence the qualifier "usually." 650Cs were originally a balloon tire size,
> but tires that size are rare, too.
>
Actually, 650C (571mm) is the sized used by triathletes. The old "balloon"
tires were probably 650A (590mm), and we all know that 650B (584mm) is used
by the French and is being revitalized by Grant Petersen and Jan Heine.

> Actually, I saw that tire on Harris's site about five minutes after
> posting, and thought, "Crap, some contrarian's gonna give me grief."
Thanks
> for that. :)

Hey, isn't that what "wreck.bike.techtalk" is all about?!

[Hank Wirtz]

"bfd" > wrote in
:

>
> "Hank Wirtz" > wrote in message
> 6...
>> "bfd" > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>
>> >> 650c tires usually only come in skinny widths, no more than 23mm.
>> <SNIP>
>> >>
>> > This is incorrect, there is A single 650C (571mm diameter) tire
>> > that comes wider than 23mm, its the 28mm wide Terry Tellus ST
>> > (650Cx28 or 28-571):
>>
>> Hence the qualifier "usually." 650Cs were originally a balloon tire
>> size, but tires that size are rare, too.
>>
> Actually, 650C (571mm) is the sized used by triathletes. The old
> "balloon" tires were probably 650A (590mm), and we all know that 650B
> (584mm) is used by the French and is being revitalized by Grant
> Petersen and Jan Heine.
>
Quoth Sheldon:

'571 mm 650C was originally a wide, ballon tire size, used on many older
Schwinn cruisers. These days, however, it is mainly seen on triathlon bikes
and time-trial machines. Available tires and rims are mostly very narrow
models, intended for competition use.'

[Nate Knutson]

meb wrote:
> Wrote:
> > since my goal is to run wider than 28mm tires, is it possible to use
> > 26" rims. Are any brake calipers made that will work with extra long
> > reach?
>
> You'll likely need go to 559 to do the trick, then you'll have a wider
> variety of rubber, especially wide.
>
>
> --
> meb

um... 559 is the size most likely to give problems. I'm not going to do
the math, maybe it could work with like BMX calipers and then the
braking would basically suck and the bike's geometry change probably
gets into the realm where it makes a difference (unless really fat
tires are used, and those might not even clear the frame). 584 (650B)
is the obvious choice here, as was suggested earlier.

[Nate Knutson]

Hank Wirtz wrote:
> "bfd" > wrote in
> :
>
> >
> > "Hank Wirtz" > wrote in message
> > 6...
> >> "bfd" > wrote in
> >> :
> >>
> >>
> >> >> 650c tires usually only come in skinny widths, no more than 23mm.
> >> <SNIP>
> >> >>
> >> > This is incorrect, there is A single 650C (571mm diameter) tire
> >> > that comes wider than 23mm, its the 28mm wide Terry Tellus ST
> >> > (650Cx28 or 28-571):
> >>
> >> Hence the qualifier "usually." 650Cs were originally a balloon tire
> >> size, but tires that size are rare, too.
> >>
> > Actually, 650C (571mm) is the sized used by triathletes. The old
> > "balloon" tires were probably 650A (590mm), and we all know that 650B
> > (584mm) is used by the French and is being revitalized by Grant
> > Petersen and Jan Heine.
> >
> Quoth Sheldon:
>
> '571 mm 650C was originally a wide, ballon tire size, used on many older
> Schwinn cruisers. These days, however, it is mainly seen on triathlon bikes
> and time-trial machines. Available tires and rims are mostly very narrow
> models, intended for competition use.'

Does S7 actually predate 650c?

[Victor Kan]

bfd wrote:
> This is incorrect, there is A single 650C (571mm diameter) tire that comes
> wider than 23mm, its the 28mm wide Terry Tellus ST (650Cx28 or 28-571):

There are a few other 571mm tires wider than 23 in addition to the Tellus.

There's the Serfas Urbana (also 28-571) and several models of Bontrager
(25-571). I have one of the latter on my recumbent bike.

--
I do not accept unsolicited commercial e-mail. Remove NO_UCE for
legitimate replies.

[Hank Wirtz]

"Nate Knutson" > wrote in
oups.com:


>> >
>> Quoth Sheldon:
>>
>> '571 mm 650C was originally a wide, ballon tire size, used on many
>> older Schwinn cruisers. These days, however, it is mainly seen on
>> triathlon bikes and time-trial machines. Available tires and rims are
>> mostly very narrow models, intended for competition use.'
>
> Does S7 actually predate 650c?
>
>

They're one and the same.

[Nate Knutson]

Hank Wirtz wrote:
> "Nate Knutson" > wrote in
> oups.com:
>
>
> >> >
> >> Quoth Sheldon:
> >>
> >> '571 mm 650C was originally a wide, ballon tire size, used on many
> >> older Schwinn cruisers. These days, however, it is mainly seen on
> >> triathlon bikes and time-trial machines. Available tires and rims are
> >> mostly very narrow models, intended for competition use.'
> >
> > Does S7 actually predate 650c?
> >
> >
>
> They're one and the same.

Yes, in a sense, but what I was asking is whether the wide, Schwinn,
S-7-ish ones actually came before the narrow, French, 650ish ones.

[Hank Wirtz]

"Nate Knutson" > wrote in news:1143932576.549120.248130
@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com:

>
> Hank Wirtz wrote:
>> "Nate Knutson" > wrote in
>> oups.com:
>>
>>
>> >> >
>> >> Quoth Sheldon:
>> >>
>> >> '571 mm 650C was originally a wide, ballon tire size, used on many
>> >> older Schwinn cruisers. These days, however, it is mainly seen on
>> >> triathlon bikes and time-trial machines. Available tires and rims are
>> >> mostly very narrow models, intended for competition use.'
>> >
>> > Does S7 actually predate 650c?
>> >
>> >
>>
>> They're one and the same.
>
> Yes, in a sense, but what I was asking is whether the wide, Schwinn,
> S-7-ish ones actually came before the narrow, French, 650ish ones.
>
>

If you mean, did 571-40 tires come before 571-23? Then yes.

[Nate Knutson]

Hank Wirtz wrote:
> "Nate Knutson" > wrote in news:1143932576.549120.248130
> @v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com:
>
> >
> > Hank Wirtz wrote:
> >> "Nate Knutson" > wrote in
> >> oups.com:
> >>
> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> Quoth Sheldon:
> >> >>
> >> >> '571 mm 650C was originally a wide, ballon tire size, used on many
> >> >> older Schwinn cruisers. These days, however, it is mainly seen on
> >> >> triathlon bikes and time-trial machines. Available tires and rims are
> >> >> mostly very narrow models, intended for competition use.'
> >> >
> >> > Does S7 actually predate 650c?
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> They're one and the same.
> >
> > Yes, in a sense, but what I was asking is whether the wide, Schwinn,
> > S-7-ish ones actually came before the narrow, French, 650ish ones.
> >
> >
>
> If you mean, did 571-40 tires come before 571-23? Then yes.

How old are the oldest 571-23's? And I'm not just asking about 23's,
even though them and 20ish are the predominant narrow 571's today, I
imagine that this wasn't always so.

[Hank Wirtz]

"Nate Knutson" > wrote in
oups.com:


>
> How old are the oldest 571-23's? And I'm not just asking about 23's,
> even though them and 20ish are the predominant narrow 571's today, I
> imagine that this wasn't always so.
>

Dunno about oldest, but most would point to Ray Browning winning the '89
Ironman NZ on a 650c bike as being the birth of their popularity.

[Nate Knutson]

Hank Wirtz wrote:
> "Nate Knutson" > wrote in
> oups.com:
>
>
> >
> > How old are the oldest 571-23's? And I'm not just asking about 23's,
> > even though them and 20ish are the predominant narrow 571's today, I
> > imagine that this wasn't always so.
> >
>
> Dunno about oldest, but most would point to Ray Browning winning the '89
> Ironman NZ on a 650c bike as being the birth of their popularity.\

I'm pretty sure they're quite a bit older than the modern incarnations
of them for tri and some small modern road bikes. I've seen references
to the French name system they're part of existing in the 40's,
although I don't know any more than that. The rwhole reason I brought
it up was to see if anyone knew which 571 actually appeared first. I
don't know for sure when S7 came out either.

[Marcus Coles]

Kinky Cowboy wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Apr 2006 05:51:53 +1000, meb
> > wrote:
>
>> Wrote:
>>> since my goal is to run wider than 28mm tires, is it possible to use
>>> 26" rims. Are any brake calipers made that will work with extra long
>>> reach?
>> You'll likely need go to 559 to do the trick, then you'll have a wider
>> variety of rubber, especially wide.
>
> And change the frame to one designed to take 559s too, seems much
> simpler and probably cheaper than trying to shoe-horn the wrong wheels
> into a 700c frame.
>
>

584mm or 590mm wheels may work OK with a large enough tire, but the big
killer of a 571mm or 559mm conversion is that the bottom bracket of a
700c frame is going to be down in the weeds.
This will require careful cornering and rough ground techniques.
No long brake arms or drop bolts will get around that, perhaps some
kiddie crank arms or some chopper forks might though ;-)

Marcus

[Hank Wirtz]

"Nate Knutson" > wrote in news:1143944543.866292.205340
@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:


>
> I'm pretty sure they're quite a bit older than the modern incarnations
> of them for tri and some small modern road bikes. I've seen references
> to the French name system they're part of existing in the 40's,
> although I don't know any more than that. The rwhole reason I brought
> it up was to see if anyone knew which 571 actually appeared first. I
> don't know for sure when S7 came out either.
>
Well, S7 is also known as 26x1&3/4, which works out to about 45mm. In
reality, the tires were about 40mm. The 650 was supposed to refer to the
outer diameter of the wheel. 571mm BSD + (40mm tire x 2 sides of the wheel)
=651mm. The S7 size _is_ the original incarnation of the 650C wheel, just
by a different name. Schwinn may have coined the S7 name later, but it was
the same size rim and tire.

The 650c designation for tri bikes is a misnomer, just as the 700c is for
modern road wheels, since it was supposed to have 40mm tires, too. But
there's absolutely no question the fat ones, which Schwinn called S7, are
the earlier version of the 571mm BSD tire.

[bfd]

"Hank Wirtz" > wrote in message
6...
> "Nate Knutson" > wrote in
news:1143944543.866292.205340
> @j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
>
> >
> > I'm pretty sure they're quite a bit older than the modern incarnations
> > of them for tri and some small modern road bikes. I've seen references
> > to the French name system they're part of existing in the 40's,
> > although I don't know any more than that. The rwhole reason I brought
> > it up was to see if anyone knew which 571 actually appeared first. I
> > don't know for sure when S7 came out either.
> >
> Well, S7 is also known as 26x1&3/4, which works out to about 45mm. In
> reality, the tires were about 40mm. The 650 was supposed to refer to the
> outer diameter of the wheel. 571mm BSD + (40mm tire x 2 sides of the
wheel)
> =651mm. The S7 size _is_ the original incarnation of the 650C wheel, just
> by a different name. Schwinn may have coined the S7 name later, but it was
> the same size rim and tire.
>
> The 650c designation for tri bikes is a misnomer, just as the 700c is for
> modern road wheels, since it was supposed to have 40mm tires, too. But
> there's absolutely no question the fat ones, which Schwinn called S7, are
> the earlier version of the 571mm BSD tire.
>
Thanks for the info, didn't know about the *fat* 650c tires. One question,
so where do you find these fat 650C tires like 45-571 or 40-571 today?

[Hank Wirtz]

"bfd" > wrote in
:


>>
> Thanks for the info, didn't know about the *fat* 650c tires. One
> question, so where do you find these fat 650C tires like 45-571 or
> 40-571 today?
>
>
>

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/tires/571s.html

Obviously, they won't fit on your Cervelo, since there's no room between
the stays or fork blades...

[Nate Knutson]

bfd wrote:
> "Hank Wirtz" > wrote in message
> 6...
> > "Nate Knutson" > wrote in
> news:1143944543.866292.205340
> > @j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> >
> >
> > >
> > > I'm pretty sure they're quite a bit older than the modern incarnations
> > > of them for tri and some small modern road bikes. I've seen references
> > > to the French name system they're part of existing in the 40's,
> > > although I don't know any more than that. The rwhole reason I brought
> > > it up was to see if anyone knew which 571 actually appeared first. I
> > > don't know for sure when S7 came out either.
> > >
> > Well, S7 is also known as 26x1&3/4, which works out to about 45mm. In
> > reality, the tires were about 40mm. The 650 was supposed to refer to the
> > outer diameter of the wheel. 571mm BSD + (40mm tire x 2 sides of the
> wheel)
> > =651mm. The S7 size _is_ the original incarnation of the 650C wheel, just
> > by a different name. Schwinn may have coined the S7 name later, but it was
> > the same size rim and tire.
> >
> > The 650c designation for tri bikes is a misnomer, just as the 700c is for
> > modern road wheels, since it was supposed to have 40mm tires, too. But
> > there's absolutely no question the fat ones, which Schwinn called S7, are
> > the earlier version of the 571mm BSD tire.
> >
> Thanks for the info, didn't know about the *fat* 650c tires. One question,
> so where do you find these fat 650C tires like 45-571 or 40-571 today?

There's nothing special or rare about them. Any shop can get them. (In
the US at least - not sure about elsewhere). However, if
better-than-basic fat 571s have ever existed or are being made
somewhere, I have no idea what they are or where to get them.