System for eliminating deadspot

[skicker]

Saw this today, its supposed to eliminate the deadspot when pedalling a
bike.

http://tinyurl.com/rbdmb

Wonder what this would be like on a unicycle?


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[tholub]

skicker wrote:
> Saw this today, its supposed to eliminate the deadspot when pedalling a
> bike.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/rbdmb
>
> Wonder what this would be like on a unicycle?



What begins as a bad idea on the bicycle will turn into a worse one on
the unicycle, as I'm sure the cranks are not designed to deal with
pressure applied in the backwards direction.


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[Mikefule]

Complete nonsense. Another example of I don't practise my archery so I
need a better bow.


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[rob.northcott]

I suppose it may help the type of cyclist who just stomps down on the
top pedal, but that's not how you should be pedalling. I wouldn't
fancy trying to spin that setup at any sort of speed. I'm very
sceptical, but if anybody wants to buy me a set I'll give them a try
;)
I reckon it would feel very weird on a unicycle, with the foot speed
changing at the top of every stroke.

Rob


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[UNIquelyCanadian]

Hmm. Whiplash! (Check the same thread in JC started by evil-nick)

I converted my BMX cranks into Rotor Cranks by doing dirt jump! My old
unicycle also had "Rotor Cranks" before I snapped it's hub.

I can't say it seemed to be much different once you get comfortable
with the odd rotation. The "science" behind the idea sounds rather
quack though.

If you want to try it, and have a unicycle with a splined hub, just
rotate one of the cranks a few degrees and see what it is like.

If you don't have a splined hub, do a few drops until your hub twists
to the desired angle. LOL!

Are you sure the site isn't a prank?

It reminds me of: http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Italy/PMP_main.htm


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[joemarshall]

It presumably adds a very slight amount of efficiency for people who are
riding at a very high level. It probably doesn't reduce efficiency, or
else people wouldn't be winning races with it.

Spinning shouldn't be a problem as you're still spinning, just that the
feet are spinning at slightly different speeds at any point. I guess
their point is that even the best spinners can't apply constant force
all the way round whilst riding flat out as they inevitably can push
down harder than they can push forwards.

This sort of thing is surely less important on a fixed gear anyway, as
the wheel momentum pushes you through the dead spot anyway.

Joe


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[phlegm]

While reducing the dead spot for one leg, doesn't this create a worse
dead spot for the other leg?


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[john_childs]

UNIquelyCanadian wrote:
> I converted my BMX cranks into Rotor Cranks by doing dirt jump! My old
> unicycle also had "Rotor Cranks" before I snapped it's hub.


That's not how the Rotor Cranks work. The amount of offset is not
fixed like you'd have if you had a bent hub. The offset changes
throughout the pedal stroke. 'See the simulation here'
(http://www.rotorbike.com/eng/simulador_RS4_RD2_53.htm).

I wouldn't want them on a unicycle. We control our balance by being
able to make micro-adjustments to the pedaling motion. Having the
cranks change in offset while you are pedaling would just mess
everything up.

For bikes the concept might work, but not on a unicycle.

The Rotor Cranks aren't new. I knew about them more than two years
ago. Strange that it just hit the blogs like it was new.


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[tholub]

joemarshall wrote:
> It presumably adds a very slight amount of efficiency for people who are
> riding at a very high level. It probably doesn't reduce efficiency, or
> else people wouldn't be winning races with it.
>



There was a Cat 1 racer here in California who did a series of races on
an old steel Peugeot, in sneakers and cutoff jeans, on platform pedals.
I forget if he had straps or not. He won at least one race that way;
I remember the interview afterwards. The point being, whether someone
wins a race or not has a lot more to do with the rider than the bike,
so it's easy to introduce inefficiencies into the system and still win
races.

If nothing else, these introduce extra rotating weight.

Note that they are *not* simply offset cranks; there's some sort of
racheting mechanism which changes the position of the cranks relative
to each other during the pedal stroke.


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[kington99]

Watching the simulation it shows how the gearing changes as the crank
position changes, i suspect this would be highly tricky to ride on a
unicycle, especially as effectively both your feet are on different
gears, they would always be moving at different speeds (except at the
cros-over point). This could seriously mess with your balance I think.
The way it works is highly impressive, but I don't think it would be
viable for a unicycle.


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[UNIquelyCanadian]

john_childs wrote:
> That's not how the Rotor Cranks work. The amount of offset is not fixed
> like you'd have if you had a bent hub. The offset changes throughout
> the pedal stroke. 'See the simulation here'
> (http://www.rotorbike.com/eng/simulador_RS4_RD2_53.htm).
>
> I wouldn't want them on a unicycle. We control our balance by being
> able to make micro-adjustments to the pedaling motion. Having the
> cranks change in offset while you are pedaling would just mess
> everything up.
>
> For bikes the concept might work, but not on a unicycle.
>
> The Rotor Cranks aren't new. I knew about them more than two years
> ago. Strange that it just hit the blogs like it was new.



True. :) However,doesn't bent cranks do the same thing for the "dead
spot" though? Or am I missing something?

I'm still kind of dubious about the idea...


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[Gilby]

I think you'd learn to ride them just fine, similar to riding a two
wheeler or myron cycle. It's just a matter of time on it until you get
proficient.


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[maxisback]

Well Im not expert.. but considering you'd put that on a coker.. that
would be very pointless Im sure someone with a geared coker would go as
fast as someone with that.. correct me if Im wrong tho..


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[evil-nick]

The only thing I can think of them being useful for are maybe muni, so
you always have a pedal that can produce power, and people learning. I
see a lot of people getting stuck in a no-power situation.

In any case, I'm not planning on running out and putting a set on my
muni, I just wanted to know what other people thought...


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[James_Potter]

phlegm wrote:
> While reducing the dead spot for one leg, doesn't this create a worse
> dead spot for the other leg?


Thats what I thought at first too, but its not just regular crank arms
set at a slight angle...its a geared hub, so whichever crank arm is at
the top is automatically slightly ahead.
I personally think it could work, for distance riding at least.


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[Chrashing]

It looks promising to me. My first thought, Gee I could uni up to a
curb and always be sure that I'd be in a power stroke position to ride
up it.


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[unisteve]

I'm not sure about you guys, but I've found at least a couple decent
ways to get around the dead spot.

If I'm going to be going up over a curb, I do a tiny little hop before
I hit it if my pedals are in "the power position".

Sometimes if I need to change my pedal position but can't roll
anywhere, I do a little hop in place with my pedals askew, and then
align them midair.

I always thought doing things the hard way was half the fun of
unicycling.

EDIT: Make that "more than half the fun".


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[johnfoss]

skicker wrote:
> Wonder what this would be like on a unicycle?


Extremely expensive! You'd have to modify the pricy stuff shown on that
site, to an unknown cost.


tholub wrote:
> What begins as a bad idea on the bicycle will turn into a worse one on
> the unicycle, as I'm sure the cranks are not designed to deal with
> pressure applied in the backwards direction.


Uh, don't you ever idle or hop? :)

But it's true, bicycle cranks really aren't made to handle pressure in
both directions. That's why the square taper design isn't quite good
enough for unicycles.

I think riding with those cranks would be interesting, but only the
richest of rich people would likely benefit. To me, the dead spot is
part of what makes unicycling the challenge it is. Overcoming the dead
spot is a big part of learning to ride.

However, reducing dead spot for things like MUni or rolling trials
would be very interesting. I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to ride
with those type of cranks, you'd just need a bit of time to get used to
the different foot movement. Then you could experiment with the ability
to ride over terrain while never getting stuck in the dead spot!


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[tholub]

johnfoss wrote:
> Extremely expensive! You'd have to modify the pricy stuff shown on that
> site, to an unknown cost.
>
>
> Uh, don't you ever idle or hop? :)
>
> But it's true, bicycle cranks really aren't made to handle pressure in
> both directions. That's why the square taper design isn't quite good
> enough for unicycles.
>
> I think riding with those cranks would be interesting, but only the
> richest of rich people would likely benefit. To me, the dead spot is
> part of what makes unicycling the challenge it is. Overcoming the dead
> spot is a big part of learning to ride.
>
> However, reducing dead spot for things like MUni or rolling trials
> would be very interesting. I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to ride
> with those type of cranks, you'd just need a bit of time to get used to
> the different foot movement. Then you could experiment with the ability
> to ride over terrain while never getting stuck in the dead spot!



The issue isn't that they're bicycle cranks; it's that they've got some
funky ratcheting mechanism that probably isn't set up to provide real
power in the rearward direction. And yes, that would mess up your
idling and hopping, not to mention going downhill.

And there's no way these cranks can eliminate the dead spot; the dead
spot is biomechanical. All they can do is move it around.


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[swarbrim]

Yes but arnt they moving it so you would never reach it??

Mike


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[tholub]

swarbrim wrote:
> Yes but arnt they moving it so you would never reach it??
>
> Mike



You know, it's worth taking a look at the 'Museum of Unworkable
Devices' (http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/unwork.htm). Basically
this design is kind of like an "overbalanced wheel" perpetual-motion
machine, predicated on seductive but fundamentally flawed rationale.
Let's assume for a moment that the claim the company makes is true;
that with these cranks, you can put more energy into each downstroke.
Where did that extra energy come from? It came from the upswing; you
are putting energy into the system to make it go from offset one
direction to offset the other direction. The payoff is that you get to
exert downward pressure sooner, but the payoff will never be more than
the cost; it's a law of thermodynamics.


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[cyberpunk]

I'd really like to see someone try this out for muni, I REALLY think it
would help out alot, and honestly I don't think more then 20min would
be neccesary to get used to them, I dont' see what all the fuss is
about in that regards, also, if they work well, I wonder if they could
be incorporated into a geared hub easily? like the one kris had at
moab, I mean if your already spending 1600$ on a hub, I wouldn't mind
droping a few extra hundred for the zero ds system as well.


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[GUI]

I stil don't understand the advantage. Instead of paying a lot of extra
money on your cranks, why not just practice being able to deal with the
ds? Not only is it cheaper, you become a better rider.


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[caw89]

People pay for pre bent cranks!?!?!


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[toddw9]

caw89 wrote:
> People pay for pre bent cranks!?!?!



read the thread more carefully, read the descriptions more carefully,
and look at the pictures more carefully. They're not "pre-bent"
cranks.


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[toddw9]

tholub wrote:
> You know, it's worth taking a look at the 'Museum of Unworkable Devices'
> (http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/unwork.htm). Basically this
> design is kind of like an "overbalanced wheel" perpetual-motion
> machine, predicated on seductive but fundamentally flawed rationale.
> Let's assume for a moment that the claim the company makes is true;
> that with these cranks, you can put more energy into each downstroke.
> Where did that extra energy come from? It came from the upswing; you
> are putting energy into the system to make it go from offset one
> direction to offset the other direction. The payoff is that you get to
> exert downward pressure sooner, but the payoff will never be more than
> the cost; it's a law of thermodynamics.



I can see where your thinking comes from, but it's not quite right.
The energy does indeed go in that cycle, however, the range where the
energy for the upstroke is taken from the downstroke takes place at a
slightly different point, which basically smooths out the power curve.
I don't think it necessarily adds power, but if the pedaling curve is
smoother with fewer dead spots, it is definitely less exhausting.


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Todd

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[tholub]

toddw9 wrote:
> I can see where your thinking comes from, but it's not quite right. The
> energy does indeed go in that cycle, however, the range where the
> energy for the upstroke is taken from the downstroke takes place at a
> slightly different point, which basically smooths out the power curve.
> I don't think it necessarily adds power, but if the pedaling curve is
> smoother with fewer dead spots, it is definitely less exhausting.



I think it's very unlikely that it's less exhausting. If nothing else,
there is extra friction and weight in the system that are likely to
overwhelm whatever small advantage the nature of the cranks can
provide.

Did you notice that in their list of winners, that none of them are
more recent than 2004? And that the "Rotor News" page hasn't been
updated since February 2005? They must have run out of money to
sponsor riders, so now no one is bothering with the gimmick anymore.


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[Klaas Bil]

On Tue, 4 Apr 2006 14:43:53 -0500, tholub wrote:

>And there's no way these cranks can eliminate the dead spot; the dead
>spot is biomechanical. All they can do is move it around.

Not really. You know, with any crank set (geared or not), each foot is
only effectively transmitting power during the downstroke (broadly
speaking). When the cranks of a conventional setup are vertical, both
feet are ineffective and that is called the dead spot. With these
geared cranks, the top foot is ALREADY in a position to deliver (some)
power, while the bottom foot is STILL delivering some power. So there
is no point at which both feet are ineffective, hence no dead spot.

But some positions are deader than others, I'll give you that.

[dan de man]

UNIquelyCanadian wrote:
> It reminds me of: http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Italy/PMP_main.htm




'where can i get sum of those they look so cool


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[Jerrick]

dan de man wrote:
> 'where can i get sum of those they look so cool



You could probably make a pair for yourself, doesnt look like anything
too fancy, just a right angle in the cranks, and now i wanna try the
cranks, both the first ones mentioned on here, and the angled ones =p


--
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from chosen:

can you give me a shoutout in your sig. some thing like i love
jonny....or jonny is the coolest. or be creative. but pleeeasssee can i
have a shoutout from you?

jonny
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[GILD]

evil-nick wrote:
> The only thing I can think of them being useful for are maybe muni, so
> you always have a pedal that can produce power, and people learning. I
> see a lot of people getting stuck in a no-power situation.


Learners get stuck in the no-power position due to incorrect technique,
not an inherent design-flaw in the unicycle.
Even if you had these on a learner-uni, the learner would still have to
keep his/her weight on the seat.

'Interesting link'
(http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/articles/6807.0.html) from the
comments section of the original article.


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[tholub]

GILD wrote:
> Learners get stuck in the no-power position due to incorrect technique,
> not an inherent design-flaw in the unicycle.
> Even if you had these on a learner-uni, the learner would still have to
> keep his/her weight on the seat.
>
> 'Interesting link'
> (http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/articles/6807.0.html) from the
> comments section of the original article.



Ah yes, ovalized chainrings, another bad idea that gets revived every
now and then. Like most of the bad ideas people try out for bikes, it
is not new; the first oval chainrings appeared in 1890. Like all of
the bad ideas, it was rejected by the riding community until the next
time someone tried to market an old idea as new.


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[evil-nick]

johnfoss wrote:
> Uh, don't you ever idle or hop? :)


I actually found idling to be nearly useless at first. I've been
riding "hardcore" for nearly 3 years now (12 months a year in Quebec,
and lots of muni) and only started idling last month :) Hopping is
much easier :D

I mostly started idling because everyone else here can and I didn't
want to be alone :'(


--
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Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total
obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and
through me. And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see
its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will
remain.

* Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear.

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[GILD]

tholub wrote:
> Ah yes, ovalized chainrings, another bad idea that gets revived every
> now and then.


Fair enough.
By the time a bad idea makes it to a second place at the Olympics, I'm
likely to start paying attention.
Either to the idea or to the idiot who probably could've had a gold
medal if the idea was really as bad as it's detractors suggest.

"...it'll never catch on..." has been said about most products we all
use on a daily basis. Most famously about the computer.
The Beatles were rejected by 11 (or 14, I can never remember) record
companies.
The Colonel had his recipe for fried chicken turned down something like
53 times.
If everyone believed that you could never have a shift-on-the-fly uni,
we wouldn't have the Schlumpf. Even Harper, who must be one of the top
three best-informed people in the world when it comes to geared
uni-hubs, regularly said that he doubts if 'shift-on-the-fly' uni-hubs
would ever be feasible.

Bad idea?
Or just not good enough, yet?
There is a better mousetrap out there.
There is an improvement on the wheel out there.
Now if the father of the kid who has the idea will just stop telling
him to shut up and eat his 'cornflakes' (http://tinyurl.com/elxtc)...


--
GILD

'three short gs and a long e-flat™'
(http://w3.rz-berlin.mpg.de/cmp/beethoven_sym5_1.wav) - 'world jump
day' (http://www.worldjumpday.org/)
'if i'm murdered, don't execute my killer.'
(http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/1539/)
'harper' (http://tinyurl.com/c9epx)
'NAMASTE!' (http://tinyurl.com/4qcxw)
'Dave' (http://www.lyricsdir.com/d/deep-purple/child-in-time.php)
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[tholub]

GILD wrote:
> Fair enough.
> By the time a bad idea makes it to a second place at the Olympics, I'm
> likely to start paying attention.
> Either to the idea or to the idiot who probably could've had a gold
> medal if the idea was really as bad as it's detractors suggest.
>
> "...it'll never catch on..." has been said about most products we all
> use on a daily basis.



Certainly, there are some good ideas which were slow to be adopted.

But there are many more ideas which are simply bad, and ovalized
chainrings are one example.


--
tholub
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[joemarshall]

tholub wrote:
> Ah yes, ovalized chainrings, another bad idea that gets revived every
> now and then. Like most of the bad ideas people try out for bikes, it
> is not new; the first oval chainrings appeared in 1890. Like all of
> the bad ideas, it was rejected by the riding community until the next
> time someone tried to market an old idea as new.



Ovalized chainrings are an odd one. Whilst most people pooh-pooh them,
there are a few really respected people like 'Sheldon Brown'
(http://www.sheldonbrown.com/biopace.html) who like them.

My dad has ridden on some oval rings for the last 10 years apparently
they're good if you have knee problems. He does probably a couple of
thousand miles a year, so I guess they work okay for him.

They seem to make sense, because even the best spinner can't generate
as much power at some points in the pedal stroke.

Joe


--
joemarshall

my pics http://gallery.unicyclist.com/albuq44
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[GhettoSmurf]

Hey, Im in cyberpunks Avatar!


--
GhettoSmurf

formarly unicyclistben
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[unijesse]

an easy way to make a pair

go off a six foot drop with a cotterless crankset


--
unijesse

www.unicycletips.com

I told him that Kris was a little bit behind me, and he nearly had a
hernia.-catboy

Udjiniese-Lucas1wheel
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[Jerrick]

unijesse wrote:
> an easy way to make a pair
>
> go off a six foot drop with a cotterless crankset



Too bad thats not how it works, did you see the diagram of what the
cranks do while you pedal?


--
Jerrick

Currently learning to Wheel Walk, coast, ride backwards one-footed,
180-unispin, and seat drag\pushes =p

Wish me luck!
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[unijesse]

no i didnt, but i dont want to either


--
unijesse

www.unicycletips.com

I told him that Kris was a little bit behind me, and he nearly had a
hernia.-catboy

Udjiniese-Lucas1wheel
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[GILD]

Nothing like being informed before expressing an opinion...


--
GILD

'three short gs and a long e-flat™'
(http://w3.rz-berlin.mpg.de/cmp/beethoven_sym5_1.wav) - 'world jump
day' (http://www.worldjumpday.org/)
'if i'm murdered, don't execute my killer.'
(http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/1539/)
'harper' (http://tinyurl.com/c9epx)
'NAMASTE!' (http://tinyurl.com/4qcxw)
'Dave' (http://www.lyricsdir.com/d/deep-purple/child-in-time.php)
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[kokomojuggler]

I just learned of this. I rode my Coker on the first day of the Indiana
"Hilly Hundred" bicycle ride and had to walk a lot of hills. I stumbled
upon this as a way to be able to go up hills and I think it has a
chance of working. I don't really understand how it works, at least not
well enough to build one or tell someone else how to build one.

It does look like this idea never caught on. I don't know if that says
anything about it's validity or not. They did do some experiments and
collect data, which is a good thing. I didn't read all the reports, but
it looks promising.

I understand that things like this may not be attractive to everyone,
because they detract from the simplicity of a basic unicycle.

Does anyone really understand how this thing works?

P.S. I saw the link to the bent crank idea. That idea seems like it
would do absolutely nothing. As far as I understand the pedaling would
be exactly the same as a non-bent crank as the position of the pedal to
the crank is constant. Is there something here I'm missing?


--
kokomojuggler

Kokomo Juggler
-All Glory to God
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[Uni-Ouly]

ha this is funny because my hub is currently slightly bent so my cranks
are ofset too. its not hard to ride either cause iv sorta gotten used
to it but i hope it wont feel to weird when i get a new hub.


--
Uni-Ouly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCsYZ_0HM8o

i like smilys :D :) :eek: :cool: :eek: :p ;) :confused: :rolleyes:
but am unfortinatly limited to 10:o
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[Mikefule]

For all those who like this idea: please PM me. I have a job lot of
snake oil I can offer at a good price. I also have anti-gullibility
pills at $5 for 10, or $12 for 20.

The angle of the cranks relative to each other changes during the
pedaling movement. As each crank goes over top dead centre, it somehow
advances quickly to past top dead centre.

It has to get there somehow, and the energy to get it there has to come
from somewhere. If it has more components, it must add weight, or
complexity, or both. If it has moving parts, it adds friction losses
to an otherwise simple system.

A proper cyclist rides in the correct gear to spin the pedals at a
cadence so high that top dead centre is barely an issue.

I can remember S shaped cranks, oval chain rings, asymmetric chain
rings...

There's no substitue for riding properly.


--
Mikefule

I'd try cynicism, but what's in it for me?
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[Borgschulze]

Um... I don't have a dead spot when riding...

I can ride my bike with one foot... and nearly ride my Unicycle with
one foot...

What dead spot are they talking about?


--
Borgschulze

'deviantART'
(http://borgschulze.deviantart.com/)'Gravity'
(http://videos.observedtrials.net/Gravity.wmv) is -not- the
issue.
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[kington99]

Borgschulze wrote:
> Um... I don't have a dead spot when riding...
>
> I can ride my bike with one foot... and nearly ride my Unicycle with
> one foot...
>
> What dead spot are they talking about?




you're using momentum to scoot through the deadspot, the reason that
you can -nearly- ride your uni one footed when you ride it two footed
very competently is because of the deadspot, were there no deadspot it
would be just as easy either way.


--
kington99

Dave

- what a thoroughly post-modern subversion of the cycling genre -
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[Borgschulze]

kington99 wrote:
> you're using momentum to scoot through the deadspot, the reason that you
> can -nearly- ride your uni one footed when you ride it two footed very
> competently is because of the deadspot, were there no deadspot it would
> be just as easy either way.


This is where you're wrong.

When you're on a fixed gear, there is no dead spot.

As well as on my bike, I don't "scoot" through it, I angle my foot
differently. I can do one foot on my bike at any speed I want, it's all
in the technique.

"The reason I can nearly ride one footed on the Unicycle" is because I
don't practice it often.


--
Borgschulze

'deviantART'
(http://borgschulze.deviantart.com/)'Gravity'
(http://videos.observedtrials.net/Gravity.wmv) is -not- the
issue.
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[unisteve]

Adapting your technique to overcome a technical deficiency does not mean
the technical deficiency does not exist.

What we are dealing with is a set of ill-defined terms:

"Dead spot" may be a little too decisive when it comes to what is or is
not possible in a unicyclist's pedal rotation. The "dead spot" is a
pedal position which is -much less ideal- than the tried-and-true
horizontal "power position" if you want to move your legs/cranks/pedals
with as little effort as possible.


--
unisteve

harper wrote:
> Don't listen to that cracker. Germans don't know jack about their own
> language.



martin.phillips wrote:
>
> Into the blue wrote:
> >
> > Where oh where is JC?
>
> Seated at the right hand of his father?
>
> Wassail!
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