It all happens so quickly

[darryl]

A story from the US shows how quickly a day out with some friends on a
ride can turn ugly in an instant. I have only included part of the story
but have put the link below. When I read this story it immediately
generated a vivid mental picture as I could easily visualise the
situation:

Quote:
The group was a good, strong group of eight and every body was excited
for the first long spring ride. We quickly lined up on the road: Paul
was first and I was on his wheel. After setting good pace, Paul went to
the back and I started pulling the group. I thought that I should keep
pulling for a while as the road was narrow with busy traffic.
Then all of a sudden, I was passed by a construction truck with trailer
full supplies for concrete framing. The truck immediately went to the
right and stopped. The Driver jumped from the truck and yelled something
about the accident that took place behind me, I immediately turned
around; from this moment on it was absolute nightmare and I'm still in
shock as I write this message.
None of you need to imagine it. Bill was on the road, still clipped in
to his bike, hands on the bars, helmet on the side, blood from his head
and he was DEAD. My good friend had died instantly.
Paul Moote witnessed this tragedy, as he was on Bill's back wheel, in
the strong cross wind, with heavy construction debris; Bill rubbed the
rider's wheel in front of him and crashed to the pavement, as the Dodge
pickup and trailer passed by, unknowingly crushing Bill.
In a tenth of a second, the world lost a great person, dad, racer and
mentor. The road was narrow, there was a strong crosswind and
construction debris littered what small shoulder was available, so many
obstacles could have kept this tragedy from ever happening. The truck
was traveling too close to the riders and should have yielded a few feet
which could have saved Bill's life.
Unquote

<http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/9678.0.html>

[Lost in Oz]

OMG!! Please be careful out there!! Everyone has loved ones who have to bear
the brunt of this sort of news everytime it happens!!

Tragic.

[Theo Bekkers]

darryl wrote:

> Bill rubbed the
> rider's wheel in front of him and crashed to the pavement, as the
> Dodge pickup and trailer passed by, unknowingly crushing Bill.

Sounds to me like Bill caused his own demise. Riding too close to the rider
in front in conditions in which this was very unsafe.

Theo

[Rayc]

Theo Bekkers wrote:

> Sounds to me like Bill caused his own demise. Riding too close to the rider
> in front in conditions in which this was very unsafe.


......well if an accident ever happens to you then may we all remember
to say something compassionate

or

following your example comclude that you may have been at fault and
thats what you deserve!

[Donga]

Nicely put, Rayc. That was a bit sad.

Donga

[darryl]

In article >,
"Theo Bekkers" > wrote:

> darryl wrote:
>
> > Bill rubbed the
> > rider's wheel in front of him and crashed to the pavement, as the
> > Dodge pickup and trailer passed by, unknowingly crushing Bill.
>
> Sounds to me like Bill caused his own demise. Riding too close to the rider
> in front in conditions in which this was very unsafe.
>
> Theo


Theo,

Although you might have expressed it differently, you could be right. Or
you could be wrong. Is that how you felt about the women's AIS team
accident?

The point that I was trying to make is that a life-changing event
happens so quickly and the circumstances where the result is life are
not very different from ending in death.

I can remember a number of situations during my life that could have
ended fatally but did not. It was not because of any particular skill
that I had to extract myself from danger - just luck.

For example, for those readers who know Military Road at Mosman on the
North Shore of Sydney Harbour, I used to ride this road daily. It is
busy and the pace is hot as vehicles drive to and fro. One particular
morning on my way to work a 10 tonne tip-truck and trailer passed quite
close by and the air turbulence between the parked cars and this block
of sheet steel was severe causing me to unbalance. I could hear the
truck approaching from behind and I was prepared to be passed but not
prepared for the trailer which, because of my momentary unsteadiness
brushed my arm. Another centimetre and I was toast.

On the same road coming home, a workmate was not so lucky. A pregnant
woman opened her car door as he approached and, in his effort to avoid
hitting her he swerved into the side of a truck that was passing.
Luckily the truck driver had been alert and also tried to avoid him but
on a multi-lane road there was nowhere to go. My mate had his leg
'degloved' from the knee down and has suffered horribly for several
years with the mental and physical trauma.

I could list quite a few harrowing tales from my motorcycling, cycling,
sea kayaking and bushwalking days. I am not accident-prone but have
lived a life outdoors. I am thankful that all my injuries have been
repairable but I just happened to fall to the survival side of the knife
edge. It might easily be different the next time. For me, that is cause
to think about the fine line between life and death.

regards,
Darryl

[Theo Bekkers]

Rayc wrote:
> Theo Bekkers wrote:

>> Sounds to me like Bill caused his own demise. Riding too close to
>> the rider in front in conditions in which this was very unsafe.

> .....well if an accident ever happens to you then may we all remember
> to say something compassionate
>
> or
>
> following your example comclude that you may have been at fault and
> thats what you deserve!

Certainly, if I was doing something stupid, please feel free to point out to
everyone that Theo contributed to his own demise and the lesson is, don't
ride so close to another rider on a road where it should be obvious that
nasty things will happen if something unforeseen happens. Hopefully somebody
may learn something from my demise.

I know it sounds callous of me but you think that a car driver should leave
enough room for a rider to fall down and skid along the road? This is not
something the driver would expect and it appears the rider was alongside the
vehiclew when it happened so the driver had no chancee of avoidance. I'm
sorry for Bill's family and it was an unfortunate incident. To try and
somehow blame the car driver is, IMHO, ridiculous. Riding along a rubbish
strewn narrow road with lots of traffic within an inch of the wheel in front
of you is not only silly, it is probably also illegal.

Theo

[Spiny Norman]

On Tue, 4 Apr 2006 17:16:50 +0800, "Theo Bekkers"
> wrote in aus.bicycle:

>darryl wrote:
>
>> Bill rubbed the
>> rider's wheel in front of him and crashed to the pavement, as the
>> Dodge pickup and trailer passed by, unknowingly crushing Bill.
>
>Sounds to me like Bill caused his own demise. Riding too close to the rider
>in front in conditions in which this was very unsafe.
>

I think that is a bit harsh, everybody makes mistakes. The first
Sydeny to Gong I went on (so many years ago) about 50 yards in front
of me a bike touched the rear wheel of a bike in front and reared up
in the air throwing the rider into the adjacent lane. Fortunately at
that moment there was no cars coming buit it could have been equally
tragic. A moments lapse in concentration, a distraction, it could
happen to any of us.


Regards
Prickles

Timendi causa est nescire
This message only uses recycled electrons

[Theo Bekkers]

steve46au wrote:
> Theo Bekkers Wrote:

>> Sounds to me like Bill caused his own demise. Riding too close to the
>> rider
>> in front in conditions in which this was very unsafe.

> That has to be the most inconsiderate bulls**t I have heard in
> many a long time.
>
> The pickup should have been passing MUCH wider.

OK, I'm sorry. It was the pick-up drivers fault Bill ran into the wheel he
was following at a distance of 1 inch.

Theo

[Theo Bekkers]

Spiny Norman wrote:
> "Theo Bekkers" wrote

>> Sounds to me like Bill caused his own demise. Riding too close to
>> the rider in front in conditions in which this was very unsafe.

> I think that is a bit harsh, everybody makes mistakes. The first
> Sydeny to Gong I went on (so many years ago) about 50 yards in front
> of me a bike touched the rear wheel of a bike in front and reared up
> in the air throwing the rider into the adjacent lane. Fortunately at
> that moment there was no cars coming buit it could have been equally
> tragic. A moments lapse in concentration, a distraction, it could
> happen to any of us.

Certainly everybody makes mistakes. One of those is sitting an inch away
from the rider in front of you in traffic. I never do that. Apart from being
dangerous it is probably illegal. It is also illegal to race on public
roads. You want to race get off the roads.

Theo

[Tamyka Bell]

Theo Bekkers wrote:
<snip>
> I know it sounds callous of me but you think that a car driver should leave
> enough room for a rider to fall down and skid along the road? This is not
<snip>

When you overtake another vehicle, do you not allow enough room for the
vehicle to veer slightly (as may occur if the driver shoulder checks, so
many people bloody veer) - do you pass so close to it that they must
travel perfectly straight to not hit you?

When someone crosses the road in front of you where there is no marked
crossing, do you just assume that they'll keep going at the same pace?
Do you not allow yourself sufficient stopping distance lest they trip
and fall in front of your vehicle?

A driver should always, always, always allow themselves enough space to
react to a changing situation.

Tam

[Theo Bekkers]

darryl wrote:

> Theo,
>
> Although you might have expressed it differently,

I know, I used to be able to spell subtle.

> you could be right.
> Or you could be wrong. Is that how you felt about the women's AIS team
> accident?

I think the circumstances were different, no-one on the team fell down in
front of a car. OTOH, I don't think pelotons have any place on a road that
has other traffic on it. People fall down in pelotons. Falls happen to the
world's most experienced racing cyclists in the TourdeF several times every
day. You should expect to fall down in a peloton regularly.

> The point that I was trying to make is that a life-changing event
> happens so quickly and the circumstances where the result is life are
> not very different from ending in death.

Sure, hopefully if we don't die from our mistakes, we learn from them. Some
people don't, Darwin takes care of them eventually. Sorry.

> I can remember a number of situations during my life that could have
> ended fatally but did not. It was not because of any particular skill
> that I had to extract myself from danger - just luck.

<snip list of harrowing experiences>

> I could list quite a few harrowing tales from my motorcycling,
> cycling, sea kayaking and bushwalking days. I am not accident-prone
> but have lived a life outdoors. I am thankful that all my injuries
> have been repairable but I just happened to fall to the survival side
> of the knife edge. It might easily be different the next time. For
> me, that is cause to think about the fine line between life and death.

I agree that situations that we do not expect or have planned for do occur.
Amazingly, as I get older, these experiences come around less and less
often, even though there is far more traffic. I wonder why that is? Luck?

I think I have said in the past that when I do have a close call my first
thought is not "******* 4WD" or "Idiot door-opener" but "What did I do wrong
to put myself into that situation".

Theo

[Theo Bekkers]

Tamyka Bell wrote:
> Theo Bekkers wrote:

>> OK, I'm sorry. It was the pick-up drivers fault Bill ran into the
>> wheel he was following at a distance of 1 inch.

> Where did you get that measurement from, Theo? "On his wheel" is still
> wheelsucking at 5, 10 inches, in different conditions. The original
> post didn't say 1 inch.

You're right Tam, the original post said he rubbed wheels with the rider in
front of him. That might not be 1 inch.

Theo

[Theo Bekkers]

Tamyka Bell wrote:
> Theo Bekkers wrote:
> <snip>
>> I know it sounds callous of me but you think that a car driver
>> should leave enough room for a rider to fall down and skid along the
>> road? This is not <snip>
>
> When you overtake another vehicle, do you not allow enough room for
> the vehicle to veer slightly (as may occur if the driver shoulder
> checks, so many people bloody veer) - do you pass so close to it that
> they must travel perfectly straight to not hit you?
>
> When someone crosses the road in front of you where there is no marked
> crossing, do you just assume that they'll keep going at the same pace?
> Do you not allow yourself sufficient stopping distance lest they trip
> and fall in front of your vehicle?
>
> A driver should always, always, always allow themselves enough space
> to react to a changing situation.

I agree with you Tam. I you left a metre, which is often more than the
distance between cars in adjacent lanes, that still wouldn't allow enough
space for the rider to fall off after running into the bicycle in front of
him or her. To allow enough space for the rider to fall down you would need
to leave the whole lane.

Theo

[Tamyka Bell]

Theo Bekkers wrote:
<snip>
> I think I have said in the past that when I do have a close call my first
> thought is not "******* 4WD" or "Idiot door-opener" but "What did I do wrong
> to put myself into that situation".

It's nice that some people still like to take responsibility for their
own actions. It's a shame that all too often when you ask, "What did I
do wrong to put myself into that situation?" you come up with, "Nothing,
I did everything I could."

Tam

[Tamyka Bell]

Theo Bekkers wrote:
>
> Tamyka Bell wrote:
> > Theo Bekkers wrote:
>
> >> OK, I'm sorry. It was the pick-up drivers fault Bill ran into the
> >> wheel he was following at a distance of 1 inch.
>
> > Where did you get that measurement from, Theo? "On his wheel" is still
> > wheelsucking at 5, 10 inches, in different conditions. The original
> > post didn't say 1 inch.
>
> You're right Tam, the original post said he rubbed wheels with the rider in
> front of him. That might not be 1 inch.
>
> Theo

If you're following at 10cm, then a truck scares the sh!t out of you,
you might not notice the guy in front signalling or calling that he's
braking, you might not slow down as quickly as he does, you might ride
into him.

I had a guy riding on my right on a 3-exit roundabout freak out and veer
into me, pushing us off the road. He came off, somehow I didn't but
that was luck, not skill. He freaked out because, having been hit by a
truck before, he'd made the assessment that this truck was going too
fast to make it around the bend to the next exit, and must have been
going off at the current exit, and he was going to get out of the way of
it. And straight into me, apparently. He was following the guy in front
at a safe distance, and he was a safe distance away from me, until he
freaked out.

The guy in question may have been riding very safely, until it all came
undone. My deepest condolences to those who knew him.

Tam

[Paulie-AU]

To fall from riding position directly to the side would place someones
head approximately 1.2 -1.5m from where the wheels were riding. Add to
that the possibility that someone may swerve towards the center of the
road during this could put your head up to approximately 1.8m closer to
the center line of the road.

Based on this just about every car that passes a cyclist in a on road
situation could possibly kill someone if they fell at that particular
moment.

I am by no means detracting from the death of another cyclist, as it is
a horrible shame but really it is a terrible case of bad luck that was
made that much more likely by following closely on a narrow debris
covered road as described. Also assuming that by "first ride of spring"
means a snowy winter (this would explain alot of debris after a snow
melt) then who here would be really willing to sit on a wheel if you
hadn't been on your bike for 3-4months.

The same outcome would occur in almost all instances if a car was
passing at that moment, even with quite an acceptable gap that wouldn't
phase most cyclists.

Realistically, if you crash onto your side for any reason in a traffic
environment there is a good chance of being squashed. And assuming that
people will swerve and not just panic brake and skid into you would be a
mistake in alot of cases also.


--
Paulie-AU

[vaudegiant]

I know it sounds callous of me but you think that a car driver should
leave
enough room for a rider to fall down and skid along the road?

Yes!
During my driver training when I was working for the ambulance
service, we were instructed to pass cyclists with enough width so as to
not strike them if they fell over towrds the centre of the road.

This is not something the driver would expect

Why not? Shouldn't all road users expect the unexpected? It's called
defensive driving (and riding).

Pat


--
vaudegiant

[Tamyka Bell]

Paulie-AU wrote:
>
> vaudegiant Wrote:
> > Why not? Shouldn't all road users expect the unexpected? It's called
> > defensive driving (and riding).Pat
> Where do you draw the line? At which point do you become a nervous
> wreck?
>
> stirring :D

Any man who can handle living with LotteBum for a few years is surely at
no risk of becoming a nervous wreck under the comparatively meagre
stress of road vehicle driving :P

Tam

[LotteBum]

Tamyka Bell Wrote:
> Any man who can handle living with LotteBum for a few years is surely at
> no risk of becoming a nervous wreck under the comparatively meagre
> stress of road vehicle driving :P
:o

Aw Tam, you're making me blush.


--
LotteBum

[Theo Bekkers]

Tamyka Bell wrote:
> Paulie-AU wrote:

>> Where do you draw the line? At which point do you become a nervous
>> wreck?

> Any man who can handle living with LotteBum for a few years is surely
> at no risk of becoming a nervous wreck under the comparatively meagre
> stress of road vehicle driving :P

Touche!

Theo

[Theo Bekkers]

Tamyka Bell wrote:
> Theo Bekkers wrote:

>> I think I have said in the past that when I do have a close call my
>> first thought is not "******* 4WD" or "Idiot door-opener" but "What
>> did I do wrong to put myself into that situation".

> It's nice that some people still like to take responsibility for their
> own actions. It's a shame that all too often when you ask, "What did I
> do wrong to put myself into that situation?" you come up with,
> "Nothing, I did everything I could."

Yes, sometimes that happens too, but mostly I find something I could have
done better. If you don't learn anything from surviving a life-threatening
situation, then one day one is going to kill you.

Theo

[Tamyka Bell]

LotteBum wrote:
>
> Tamyka Bell Wrote:
> > Any man who can handle living with LotteBum for a few years is surely at
> > no risk of becoming a nervous wreck under the comparatively meagre
> > stress of road vehicle driving :P
> :o
>
> Aw Tam, you're making me blush.

Aw shucks Lotte.

Paulie-AU should be everyone's hero! A courageous Aussie digger, that
one... :P

[Tamyka Bell]

Paulie-AU wrote:
>
> Tamyka Bell Wrote:
> > LotteBum wrote:
> > >
> > > Tamyka Bell Wrote:
> > > > Any man who can handle living with LotteBum for a few years is
> > surely at
> > > > no risk of becoming a nervous wreck under the comparatively meagre
> > > > stress of road vehicle driving :P
> > > :o
> > >
> > > Aw Tam, you're making me blush.
> >
> > Aw shucks Lotte.
> >
> > Paulie-AU should be everyone's hero! A courageous Aussie digger, that
> > one... :P
> Have you noticed my baldness to age ratio??? I dont become a nervous
> wreck...my hair just aborts my head and chooses to grow elsewhere

Where does it grow? Abby's legs?

Tam

[Donga]

Pat:
>Shouldn't all road users expect the unexpected? It's called defensive driving (and riding).

Spot on, Pat and thanks for pointing this out (not that we really need
to drive defensively, because insurance relieves us of the financial
consequences of not driving defensively).

Speed is also at issue. I often get ****ed off when cars hang back,
rather than passing when there is enough space to give me a metre - and
think of them as overly cautious drivers. But when they are tooling
along at 70 plus, one metre clearance gives me a nasty shock and the
middle finger might go up.

Donga

[Zebee Johnstone]

In aus.bicycle on Wed, 05 Apr 2006 13:14:12 +1000
Tamyka Bell > wrote:
> It's nice that some people still like to take responsibility for their
> own actions. It's a shame that all too often when you ask, "What did I
> do wrong to put myself into that situation?" you come up with, "Nothing,
> I did everything I could."

When the MCC did a huge motorcycle rider survey, there were a bunch of
questions involving crashes, and a bunch on training.

There was a clear correlation between those who had had advanced rider
training, and who said there was something they could have done in a
crash.

THe ones who said "I did all I could" were ones who had basic
training, or none.

I think the reason is that most advanced training teaches you to think
about what you are doing and be very aware of the bike and the
surroundings, and shows up your inadequacies :)

I've had crashes where there wasn't anything I could have done right
then. The problem started with decisions I made earlier.

Zebee

[Zebee Johnstone]

In aus.bicycle on Wed, 05 Apr 2006 12:35:40 +1000
Tamyka Bell > wrote:
> Theo Bekkers wrote:
>>
>> OK, I'm sorry. It was the pick-up drivers fault Bill ran into the wheel he
>> was following at a distance of 1 inch.
>
> Where did you get that measurement from, Theo? "On his wheel" is still
> wheelsucking at 5, 10 inches, in different conditions. The original post
> didn't say 1 inch.

How far away can you be from another rider and still rub their wheel?

Zebee

[Zebee Johnstone]

In aus.bicycle on Wed, 05 Apr 2006 13:18:58 +1000
Tamyka Bell > wrote:
> If you're following at 10cm, then a truck scares the sh!t out of you,
> you might not notice the guy in front signalling or calling that he's
> braking, you might not slow down as quickly as he does, you might ride
> into him.
>

so why are you riding at 10cm on a dangerous road where there are
trucks?

What are the risks, what are the alternatives?

If that is something that can happen, is it something that happens
enough that all riders should be aware of it?

If I'm on a motorcycle, travelling 10cm from your rear wheel, am I too
close? Why?

Zebee

[Random Data]

On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 00:21:48 -0700, Donga wrote:

> Speed is also at issue. I often get ****ed off when cars hang back, rather
> than passing when there is enough space to give me a metre - and think of
> them as overly cautious drivers.

I'll hang back at a reasonable stopping distance - at 30-40km/h I'll be
back 15 or 20m, which is enough to stop if something goes pear shaped.
The 3 second rule applies to all vehicles I'm following, though I'll cop
to interpreting it as 2 and a bit seconds. I hang back fairly
regularly when I can see a cyclist that I know will be either tricky to
see or forced out into the lane, because my car is a better defense for
them than some drivers' perception. I've ****ed off traffic, possibly
unnecessarily, but I'll continue to do so.

OTOH tailgating a cyclist is ****ing stupid.
--
Dave Hughes |
Strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.

[Zebee Johnstone]

In aus.bicycle on Wed, 05 Apr 2006 18:47:35 +1000
Random Data > wrote:
>
> OTOH tailgating a cyclist is ****ing stupid.

Unless you are another cyclist.... Even if you might get scared by a
truck and hit them and fall. Because the truck should know and give
you room to do that.

Zebee

[Rhubarb]

"Theo Bekkers" > wrote in message
...
> darryl wrote:
>
> > Bill rubbed the
> > rider's wheel in front of him and crashed to the pavement, as the
> > Dodge pickup and trailer passed by, unknowingly crushing Bill.
>
> Sounds to me like Bill caused his own demise. Riding too close to the
rider
> in front in conditions in which this was very unsafe.
>
> Theo

From the information supplied in the letter there is no way of telling who
was at fault. There simply is not enough factual information regarding the
fall and the collision.

As a cyclist reading about incidents as such really make me very sad and
physically cringe. But it also reminds me that we are the most vulnerable of
road users and we really cannot afford to become complacent and must always
be as diligent as possible to look after ourselves and each other out there.

[Zebee Johnstone]

In aus.bicycle on Thu, 6 Apr 2006 00:15:38 +1000
Peter Signorini > wrote:
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it actually illegal under the road rules
> to indicate and just move out half a lane? Aren't you actually required to
> change lanes fully when overtaking, if there is not enough room in the lane
> to safely overtake without a lane change? Just an idea that I had picked up
> somehow.

I think the offence is "passing too closely". In other words, a
judgement thing.

This was going to be changed for motorcycles only to require them to
change lanes completely, but cars were still to be allowed to "share
lanes" with a bicycle if they judged it safe.

Zebee

[Bleve]

Tamyka Bell wrote:
> Theo Bekkers wrote:
> <snip>
> > I know it sounds callous of me but you think that a car driver should leave
> > enough room for a rider to fall down and skid along the road? This is not
> <snip>
>
> When you overtake another vehicle, do you not allow enough room for the
> vehicle to veer slightly (as may occur if the driver shoulder checks, so
> many people bloody veer) - do you pass so close to it that they must
> travel perfectly straight to not hit you?
>
> When someone crosses the road in front of you where there is no marked
> crossing, do you just assume that they'll keep going at the same pace?
> Do you not allow yourself sufficient stopping distance lest they trip
> and fall in front of your vehicle?
>
> A driver should always, always, always allow themselves enough space to
> react to a changing situation.

Riding to how it should be, gets you killed. Riding to how it is keeps
you alive.
That's what Theo's getting at, I think.

[Zebee Johnstone]

In aus.bicycle on 5 Apr 2006 14:26:41 -0700
Bleve > wrote:
>
> Tamyka Bell wrote:
>>
>> When you overtake another vehicle, do you not allow enough room for the
>> vehicle to veer slightly (as may occur if the driver shoulder checks, so
>> many people bloody veer) - do you pass so close to it that they must
>> travel perfectly straight to not hit you?

<snip>

> Riding to how it should be, gets you killed. Riding to how it is keeps
> you alive.
> That's what Theo's getting at, I think.

Tam was too, but wanted that to only apply to the truckie. To me it
seems many folk have this blind spot when it comes to one of "Their own"
being hurt by "the other".

That is, it is never "our" fault: there is always something the other
should have done, but it is considered crass and wrong to say that the
injured cyclist/motorcyclist contributed.

Tam says "allow room to veer" but never questioned the wheel rubbing
thing, never questioned that the cyclist should have allowed room
to veer....

If either the rider had travelled far enough back that they couldn't
have rubbed the wheel, or the truck had been wide enough that had the
rider fallen, they wouldn't have hit the truck, then presumably this
wouldn't have happened.

Which is the one the rider had control over?

Which is the one the person in question is more likely to think probable?
A truck driver thinking "that cyclist who is travelling in a straight
line might suddenly just fall off, I must leave room for them to do so"
or a cyclist thinking "I might get run over if I fall on this narrow
road, so I must keep back so I have less chance of falling because I
know wheel touching is a hazard and what happens when it does".

How many cyclists falling on straight bitumen roads while going straight
ahead at speed does a car driver see? What in their experience of
driving and even riding will tell them this is likely to happen?

How many cyclists who regularly ride in bunches know that if you touch
someone's wheel, falling is the result? How many have seen it happen,
or heard of it happening.

In other words, which is more reasonable to expect - a driver to
expect a cyclist to fall over at speed (that is not when taking off)
on a straight road, or a cyclist to expect to rub wheels in a bunch,
and thus to fall off, and to be aware of overtaking traffic on a
narrow road?

Zebee

[Tamyka Bell]

Zebee Johnstone wrote:
>
> In aus.bicycle on 5 Apr 2006 14:26:41 -0700
> Bleve > wrote:
> >
> > Tamyka Bell wrote:
> >>
> >> When you overtake another vehicle, do you not allow enough room for the
> >> vehicle to veer slightly (as may occur if the driver shoulder checks, so
> >> many people bloody veer) - do you pass so close to it that they must
> >> travel perfectly straight to not hit you?
>
> <snip>
>
> > Riding to how it should be, gets you killed. Riding to how it is keeps
> > you alive.
> > That's what Theo's getting at, I think.
>
> Tam was too, but wanted that to only apply to the truckie. To me it
> seems many folk have this blind spot when it comes to one of "Their own"
> being hurt by "the other".

Half correct.

I did not want it only to apply to the truckie.

Theo had only applied it to the cyclist.

I was presenting the other case.

It is not up to us to judge whether the cyclist was riding safely - we
weren't there, so we can't say.

> That is, it is never "our" fault: there is always something the other
> should have done, but it is considered crass and wrong to say that the
> injured cyclist/motorcyclist contributed.
>
> Tam says "allow room to veer" but never questioned the wheel rubbing
> thing, never questioned that the cyclist should have allowed room
> to veer....

As above, that was already covered. I never said the truck driver was
at fault. I never said the cyclist was not at fault.

Ahhh, the beauty of usenet.

> If either the rider had travelled far enough back that they couldn't
> have rubbed the wheel, or the truck had been wide enough that had the
> rider fallen, they wouldn't have hit the truck, then presumably this
> wouldn't have happened.
>
> Which is the one the rider had control over?
>
> Which is the one the person in question is more likely to think probable?
> A truck driver thinking "that cyclist who is travelling in a straight
> line might suddenly just fall off, I must leave room for them to do so"
> or a cyclist thinking "I might get run over if I fall on this narrow
> road, so I must keep back so I have less chance of falling because I
> know wheel touching is a hazard and what happens when it does".
>
> How many cyclists falling on straight bitumen roads while going straight
> ahead at speed does a car driver see? What in their experience of
> driving and even riding will tell them this is likely to happen?
>
> How many cyclists who regularly ride in bunches know that if you touch
> someone's wheel, falling is the result? How many have seen it happen,
> or heard of it happening.
>
> In other words, which is more reasonable to expect - a driver to
> expect a cyclist to fall over at speed (that is not when taking off)
> on a straight road, or a cyclist to expect to rub wheels in a bunch,
> and thus to fall off, and to be aware of overtaking traffic on a
> narrow road?

I think people should consider the consequences of their decisions also.
A cyclist riding to close to someone in front, clipping wheels, may get
themselves killed. A truck driver passing with little clearance is
really in no danger, personally. In Japan, if you're in the big
vehicle, you're at fault. It makes a lot of people pay more attention.

As for the cyclist being so stupid for riding too close as about half
the posters seem to have determined with some authority, well if the
truck hadn't been there, would he be dead, or just injured?

I'll keep riding how I currently ride, knowing that I do all that I can
to remain safe and I don't take stupid chances (I have done a defensive
driver's course but haven't seen any defensive cyclist's courses out
there) and if I die on the road, hell, at least I didn't die in a cage.
(And it's nice to know that half the newsgroup will determine it was
probably all my fault, but I'll have it specified that if I cark it, you
pricks can't come to the funeral anyway.)

Tam

[TimC]

On 2006-04-06, Tamyka Bell (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> TimC wrote:
>>
>> On 2006-04-06, Tamyka Bell (aka Bruce)
>> was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
>> > there) and if I die on the road, hell, at least I didn't die in a cage.
>> > (And it's nice to know that half the newsgroup will determine it was
>> > probably all my fault, but I'll have it specified that if I cark it, you
>> > pricks can't come to the funeral anyway.)
>>
>> What about those of us who would automatically blame the driver?
>
> You can come along, then, TimC, especially if you bring beer. You could
> meet my friend TimV, he drinks Coopers with me normally, and would need
> a drinking buddy.

I was just about to seed my sigfile with something appropriate, but
siggy beat me to it.

Being a Tim and liking coopers means instant approval.

--
TimC
He was the best of Tims, he was the worst of Tims.
-- Teh [tie:poe] on RHOD

[Bleve]

vaudegiant wrote:
> I know it sounds callous of me but you think that a car driver should
> leave
> enough room for a rider to fall down and skid along the road?
>
> Yes!
> During my driver training when I was working for the ambulance
> service, we were instructed to pass cyclists with enough width so as to
> not strike them if they fell over towrds the centre of the road.
>
> This is not something the driver would expect
>
> Why not? Shouldn't all road users expect the unexpected? It's called
> defensive driving (and riding).

And expecting them (drivers) to actually *do* that? As we (cyclists)
are the ones likely to be hurt more in a collision, it benefits us to
expect **** to happen moreso that it does the driver of a car/truck/bus
etc (yeah yeah, I know the stats etc, and cars aren't that safe, but
they *feel* safe, which is why car drivers drive like .. car drivers!)

It's not about what they should do, it's about what they *do* do. Do
doo bee doo ...

[Tamyka Bell]

Bleve wrote:
>
> vaudegiant wrote:
> > I know it sounds callous of me but you think that a car driver should
> > leave
> > enough room for a rider to fall down and skid along the road?
> >
> > Yes!
> > During my driver training when I was working for the ambulance
> > service, we were instructed to pass cyclists with enough width so as to
> > not strike them if they fell over towrds the centre of the road.
> >
> > This is not something the driver would expect
> >
> > Why not? Shouldn't all road users expect the unexpected? It's called
> > defensive driving (and riding).
>
> And expecting them (drivers) to actually *do* that? As we (cyclists)
> are the ones likely to be hurt more in a collision, it benefits us to
> expect **** to happen moreso that it does the driver of a car/truck/bus
> etc (yeah yeah, I know the stats etc, and cars aren't that safe, but
> they *feel* safe, which is why car drivers drive like .. car drivers!)
>
> It's not about what they should do, it's about what they *do* do. Do
> doo bee doo ...

Are you dancing as well? Is that song on your iPod?

Tam

[Bleve]

Tamyka Bell wrote:
> > Do doo bee doo ...
>
> Are you dancing as well? Is that song on your iPod?

I perfer the term "convulse", and it's an iRiver, not an iPod :)

[vaudegiant]

Bleve Wrote:
> vaudegiant wrote:
> > I know it sounds callous of me but you think that a car driver
> should
> > leave
> > enough room for a rider to fall down and skid along the road?
> >
> > Yes!
> > During my driver training when I was working for the ambulance
> > service, we were instructed to pass cyclists with enough width so as
> to
> > not strike them if they fell over towrds the centre of the road.
> >
> > This is not something the driver would expect
> >
> > Why not? Shouldn't all road users expect the unexpected? It's called
> > defensive driving (and riding).
>
> And expecting them (drivers) to actually *do* that? As we (cyclists)
> are the ones likely to be hurt more in a collision, it benefits us to
> expect **** to happen moreso that it does the driver of a
> car/truck/bus
> etc (yeah yeah, I know the stats etc, and cars aren't that safe, but
> they *feel* safe, which is why car drivers drive like .. car drivers!)
>
> It's not about what they should do, it's about what they *do* do. Do
> doo bee doo ...


I agree the issue is about what they "do" do, as opposed to what they
"should" do, but drivers will drive like they do as long as we excuse
their behaviour. If the law and society got a little more serious about
driver behaviour, training and education, then the gap between "do" and
"should" may become a little narrower.

Pat


--
vaudegiant

[Bleve]

vaudegiant wrote:

> I agree the issue is about what they "do" do, as opposed to what they
> "should" do, but drivers will drive like they do as long as we excuse
> their behaviour. If the law and society got a little more serious about
> driver behaviour, training and education, then the gap between "do" and
> "should" may become a little narrower.

Don't confuse "condone" with "expect" please. I am not suggesting that
illegal and/or dangerous driver behaviour be condoned, I'm discussing
how to stay safe on a bike. The two, while related, are *not* the same
thing.

[Damian]

Bleve wrote :
> and it's an iRiver, not an iPod


Heh, iRiver owners are almost always very adamant about clarifying
this, usually quickly following it up with a list of reasons why the
iRiver is technically better.

iRivers are like the recumbent bike of the personal audio world :)

Damian (who owns an iRiver)