Shimano Flat Bar Road compatibilities?

[Jasper Janssen]

Hi,

Shimano these days has some components suitable for Flat Bar road bikes.
Among these are some Rapidfire Plus pods in 8, 9 speed versions that don't
mention anything specific about the front derailer -- these index with
Shimano Road front derailers? Or Shimano Mountain? Then, there's a 10
speed pod, which say they need to be used with some front derailers made
specially for it. Same question, Is that a road or mountain front index?
Or something altogether incompatible?

Then the front derailers: They've all got road cages, obviously, but what
do they index with? Road, Mountain, or something specific to those
specific shift levers?

Thanks,

Jasper

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> Shimano these days has some components suitable for Flat Bar road bikes.
> Among these are some Rapidfire Plus pods in 8, 9 speed versions that don't
> mention anything specific about the front derailer -- these index with
> Shimano Road front derailers? Or Shimano Mountain? Then, there's a 10
> speed pod, which say they need to be used with some front derailers made
> specially for it. Same question, Is that a road or mountain front index?
> Or something altogether incompatible?

Jasper: For reasons I've never figured out, Shimano has special front
derailleurs made for special flat-bar shift levers. What doesn't make sense
is why they don't simply make a shift lever that will operate properly with
their standard STI-style front derailleur. The reason a mountain-bike
derailleur won't work is that the chainring sizes aren't the same (they're
different enough that the radius of the derailleur cage doesn't come close
to that of the chainring, causing it to have to be either mounted way too
high above the chainring or have the tail end of the cage too high in the
air to effective move the chain).

Rear derailleurs, thankfully, could care less. They're all the same (unless
you somehow get ahold of one of the older DuraAce units that required a
special shifter).

Tell us what you want to do, and we (the many people in this newsgroup who
have worked with such things) can lay out the workable options for you.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Jasper Janssen" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
>
> Shimano these days has some components suitable for Flat Bar road bikes.
> Among these are some Rapidfire Plus pods in 8, 9 speed versions that don't
> mention anything specific about the front derailer -- these index with
> Shimano Road front derailers? Or Shimano Mountain? Then, there's a 10
> speed pod, which say they need to be used with some front derailers made
> specially for it. Same question, Is that a road or mountain front index?
> Or something altogether incompatible?
>
> Then the front derailers: They've all got road cages, obviously, but what
> do they index with? Road, Mountain, or something specific to those
> specific shift levers?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jasper

[Nate Knutson]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> > Shimano these days has some components suitable for Flat Bar road bikes.
> > Among these are some Rapidfire Plus pods in 8, 9 speed versions that don't
> > mention anything specific about the front derailer -- these index with
> > Shimano Road front derailers? Or Shimano Mountain? Then, there's a 10
> > speed pod, which say they need to be used with some front derailers made
> > specially for it. Same question, Is that a road or mountain front index?
> > Or something altogether incompatible?
>
> Jasper: For reasons I've never figured out, Shimano has special front
> derailleurs made for special flat-bar shift levers. What doesn't make sense
> is why they don't simply make a shift lever that will operate properly with
> their standard STI-style front derailleur. The reason a mountain-bike
> derailleur won't work is that the chainring sizes aren't the same (they're
> different enough that the radius of the derailleur cage doesn't come close
> to that of the chainring, causing it to have to be either mounted way too
> high above the chainring or have the tail end of the cage too high in the
> air to effective move the chain).

Are you saying that the same amount of cable pull is used on the left
shifter and f. der for both the flat bar road and the mountain stuff
(unlike STI vs mtn)?

[Jasper Janssen]

On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 17:44:24 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> wrote:
>> Shimano these days has some components suitable for Flat Bar road bikes.
>> Among these are some Rapidfire Plus pods in 8, 9 speed versions that don't
>> mention anything specific about the front derailer -- these index with
>> Shimano Road front derailers? Or Shimano Mountain? Then, there's a 10
>> speed pod, which say they need to be used with some front derailers made
>> specially for it. Same question, Is that a road or mountain front index?
>> Or something altogether incompatible?
>
>Jasper: For reasons I've never figured out, Shimano has special front
>derailleurs made for special flat-bar shift levers. What doesn't make sense

But could they be operated by real MTB group stuff, rather than the
special ones? Or are they really entirely incompatible with everything?

>is why they don't simply make a shift lever that will operate properly with
>their standard STI-style front derailleur. The reason a mountain-bike

Yeah, that's a good question. It'd make things a lot easier.

For that matter, it's fairly strange that MTB and road indexing are
different in the first place...

>Tell us what you want to do, and we (the many people in this newsgroup who
>have worked with such things) can lay out the workable options for you.

I've got a trekking bike for road use that's built with all-Deore, 26" MTB
wheels and a flat-bar w/ separate pods & brake levers rather than the
integrated stuff. It's currently kitted out with the standard Deore
gearing (11-32 9s and either a 46 or a 48 as top ring -- I still need to
count that when I have some time), and I was thinking of moving toward a
road triple, and/or possibly a road cassette -- at least for regular use
on the flats over here (and as I live .nl, the flats are very flat and
very everywhere). I pretty much never use the bottom third of gears, and I
pretty much only use the big ring with the 11-13-14-16, and very
occasionally the 18, apart from starting up after a traffic light.

I think it might actually be a good idea to just do the cassette change
first, see how I like that. Probably be an Ultegra 11-21/23 then, my local
mail order house has those for 42 euros. Twice as expensive as the current
cassette, but it might well be worth it. It would only reduce my total
gear range by the difference between small-ring/32 and small-ring/21, and
most of the rest of the result would be more closely spaced gears with
less overlap between rings.

If I were to want a road crank, and matching derailer, on my bike, what
would I have to do? I see two options: Get that flat-bar road derailer and
shifter set, which would leave me with a used MTB triple left pod and a
new 8/9/10 speed (depending on which I buy) right pod -- which may be
worth a bit on ebay, particularly the 10sp -- or, and this is what I'm
leaning towards, get a real road triple derailer and find myself an old
non-indexed left bar-top thumbshifter.

Incidentally.. why do road cassettes come in oodles of variations whereas
MTB cassettes seem to limited to 11-32 and 11-34? Weird.


Jasper

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> Are you saying that the same amount of cable pull is used on the left
> shifter and f. der for both the flat bar road and the mountain stuff
> (unlike STI vs mtn)?

Unfortunately, no. The flat-bar road shift lever operates correctly only
with the appropriate flat-bar road front derailleur. There is no reason
whatsoever (at least none that I can think of) for Shimano not making the
flat-bar shift lever compatible with standard road front derailleurs, but
they didn't.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Nate Knutson" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>> > Shimano these days has some components suitable for Flat Bar road
>> > bikes.
>> > Among these are some Rapidfire Plus pods in 8, 9 speed versions that
>> > don't
>> > mention anything specific about the front derailer -- these index with
>> > Shimano Road front derailers? Or Shimano Mountain? Then, there's a 10
>> > speed pod, which say they need to be used with some front derailers
>> > made
>> > specially for it. Same question, Is that a road or mountain front
>> > index?
>> > Or something altogether incompatible?
>>
>> Jasper: For reasons I've never figured out, Shimano has special front
>> derailleurs made for special flat-bar shift levers. What doesn't make
>> sense
>> is why they don't simply make a shift lever that will operate properly
>> with
>> their standard STI-style front derailleur. The reason a mountain-bike
>> derailleur won't work is that the chainring sizes aren't the same
>> (they're
>> different enough that the radius of the derailleur cage doesn't come
>> close
>> to that of the chainring, causing it to have to be either mounted way too
>> high above the chainring or have the tail end of the cage too high in the
>> air to effective move the chain).
>
> Are you saying that the same amount of cable pull is used on the left
> shifter and f. der for both the flat bar road and the mountain stuff
> (unlike STI vs mtn)?
>

[Jasper Janssen]

On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 06:23:31 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> wrote:

>Unfortunately, no. The flat-bar road shift lever operates correctly only
>with the appropriate flat-bar road front derailleur. There is no reason
>whatsoever (at least none that I can think of) for Shimano not making the
>flat-bar shift lever compatible with standard road front derailleurs, but
>they didn't.

It would've been even easier to simply use Mountain pull, which'd let them
use the *exact* same shifter pods as the mountain stuff, and simply put a
road cage on a mountain parallellogram. And on the plus side this'd let
people with otherwise mountain components run a road crank, rather than
forcing them to get the derailer *and* the shifters, which makes it only a
practical option when speccing a new bike.

Jasper

[Jasper Janssen]

On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 22:10:39 -0400, Matt O'Toole
> wrote:
>On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 21:00:21 +0000, Jasper Janssen wrote:
>
>> I've got a trekking bike for road use that's built with all-Deore, 26" MTB
>> wheels and a flat-bar w/ separate pods & brake levers rather than the
>> integrated stuff. It's currently kitted out with the standard Deore
>> gearing (11-32 9s and either a 46 or a 48 as top ring -- I still need to
>> count that when I have some time), and I was thinking of moving toward a
>> road triple, and/or possibly a road cassette -- at least for regular use
>> on the flats over here (and as I live .nl, the flats are very flat and
>> very everywhere). I pretty much never use the bottom third of gears, and I
>> pretty much only use the big ring with the 11-13-14-16, and very
>> occasionally the 18, apart from starting up after a traffic light.
>
>I once had some road wheels for my MTB, with slicks and an 11-24 cassette,
>used with a 46-48T big ring. It worked great.

Myeah. I suppose for that matter that 559-47 isn't all that different in
diameter from 622-23 -- let's see, 559+2x47=559+94=653,
622+2x23=622+46=668. Still a little bit of difference, but.. my shameful
secret is that I use fairly low RPMs, especially when I'm just cruising,
and the 46/48 (whichever it is) by 11 is sometimes just a bit anemic. Not
by much, mind you, but I think I'd like to have a slightly larger gear
available. On the other hand, I don't really *need* it. Enh. I'll see what
happens when I break this crank.

>> If I were to want a road crank, and matching derailer, on my bike, what
>> would I have to do? I see two options: Get that flat-bar road derailer
>> and shifter set, which would leave me with a used MTB triple left pod
>> and a new 8/9/10 speed (depending on which I buy) right pod -- which may
>> be worth a bit on ebay, particularly the 10sp -- or, and this is what
>> I'm leaning towards, get a real road triple derailer and find myself an
>> old non-indexed left bar-top thumbshifter.
>
>Maybe you should try Paul Thumbies:
>
> http://www.paulcomp.com/thumbmtn.html
>
>They turn barend shifters (which work with road derailers) into thumb
>shifters. They're available for both road (26.0mm) and MTB (25.4mm)
>handlebars.

Yeah, but a) they're expensive ($50 for the mounts, $60 or so for the
shifters) and b) I kinda like my Rapidfire plus right shifter pod. DA
barends (which those take) are still pure friction on the left, aren't
they?

Anyway, for just a left shifter, I could just as easily, and much
cheaperlier, use an actual thumbshifter from the days of yore, and/or a
new Tourney one -- I saw that they appear to be back in production, or at
least the QBP catalog on the Harris site now again lists them, in even
simpler variations than before, as available. I'm considering going to a
friction thumbie on the left anyway, because the indexing just doesn't
seem to be all that hot.

>> Incidentally.. why do road cassettes come in oodles of variations
>> whereas MTB cassettes seem to limited to 11-32 and 11-34? Weird.
>
>Actually the cassettes are interchangeable. You can put a 9sp road
>cassette on a 9sp MTB hub with no problems. 9sp on 8sp, 8sp on 8sp, and
>7sp on 7sp too.

Well, yeah, but you're still left with a big gap. The road cassettes end
at 27 large, the MTB cassettes start at 32 and are hard to get with a
larger small sprocket than 11 and look to be impossible to find with a
larger starting sprocket than 12.

I'm sure Sheldon loves the fact that lots of people come to him to buy
cassettes made from one road and one MTB cassette, but you'd think Shimano
would do something about the gap in the market as well.


Jasper

[Dave Larrington]

In article >, Jasper Janssen
) wrote:

> Yeah, but a) they're expensive ($50 for the mounts, $60 or so for the
> shifters) and b) I kinda like my Rapidfire plus right shifter pod. DA
> barends (which those take) are still pure friction on the left, aren't
> they?

Indeed they are.

> Anyway, for just a left shifter, I could just as easily, and much
> cheaperlier, use an actual thumbshifter from the days of yore, and/or a
> new Tourney one -- I saw that they appear to be back in production, or at
> least the QBP catalog on the Harris site now again lists them, in even
> simpler variations than before, as available. I'm considering going to a
> friction thumbie on the left anyway, because the indexing just doesn't
> seem to be all that hot.

Grip-shift of the "several clicks per chainring" type?

> Well, yeah, but you're still left with a big gap. The road cassettes end
> at 27 large, the MTB cassettes start at 32 and are hard to get with a
> larger small sprocket than 11 and look to be impossible to find with a
> larger starting sprocket than 12.
>
> I'm sure Sheldon loves the fact that lots of people come to him to buy
> cassettes made from one road and one MTB cassette, but you'd think Shimano
> would do something about the gap in the market as well.

Quite. I'd like 7 close ratios with a couple of bail-out gears at the
bottom for my Audax steed, but I'm too tight to buy two cassettes and
butcher them. Especially since, for some unaccountable reason,
cassettes (with no moving parts) are just as expensive as freewheels
used to be . What's THAT all about, eh, readers?

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
The elder stoat leads, in all circumstances.

[Jasper Janssen]

On Thu, 6 Apr 2006 12:53:33 +0100, Dave Larrington
> wrote:
>In article >, Jasper Janssen
) wrote:

>Indeed they are.

Funny, you sound just like Horatio Caine when you type that. This may have
something to do with the three CSI:Miami episodes I just watched in a row.

>> Anyway, for just a left shifter, I could just as easily, and much
>> cheaperlier, use an actual thumbshifter from the days of yore, and/or a
>> new Tourney one -- I saw that they appear to be back in production, or at
>> least the QBP catalog on the Harris site now again lists them, in even
>> simpler variations than before, as available. I'm considering going to a
>> friction thumbie on the left anyway, because the indexing just doesn't
>> seem to be all that hot.
>
>Grip-shift of the "several clicks per chainring" type?

I don't like grip-shift, so probably not. Admittedly, I've never lived
with one long-term, just once or twice on a hire, but I have lived with
old thumbies and I know those work for me.

>> I'm sure Sheldon loves the fact that lots of people come to him to buy
>> cassettes made from one road and one MTB cassette, but you'd think Shimano
>> would do something about the gap in the market as well.
>
>Quite. I'd like 7 close ratios with a couple of bail-out gears at the
>bottom for my Audax steed, but I'm too tight to buy two cassettes and
>butcher them. Especially since, for some unaccountable reason,
>cassettes (with no moving parts) are just as expensive as freewheels
>used to be . What's THAT all about, eh, readers?

Well.. if you're not concerned too much about weight, a $20 Deore HG 50
11-32 or a $30 LX 11-32/11-34 should get you enough steel big cogs to last
an awful lot of cassettes, given how little the big ones wear.

I don't know, I suspect that if you look at inflation-corrected pricing,
cassettes *are* cheaper than freewheels of equivalent quality, considering
that quality seems to have stepped up some big notches (ie, what used to
be Dura Ace quality is now way down the totem pole, and Deore or even
Tourney of today would have been considered fairly high end back then).

Jasper

[Jasper Janssen]

On Thu, 6 Apr 2006 14:00:09 +0200, "Lou Holtman" >
wrote:
>"Jasper Janssen" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Myeah. I suppose for that matter that 559-47 isn't all that different in
>> diameter from 622-23 -- let's see, 559+2x47=559+94=653,
>> 622+2x23=622+46=668. Still a little bit of difference, but.. my shameful
>> secret is that I use fairly low RPMs, especially when I'm just cruising,
>> and the 46/48 (whichever it is) by 11 is sometimes just a bit anemic. Not
>> by much, mind you, but I think I'd like to have a slightly larger gear
>> available. On the other hand, I don't really *need* it. Enh. I'll see what
>> happens when I break this crank.

>At what speed/RPM are you 'cruising' if 48/11 is not a large enough gear?

40, 50 rpm, not putting out much power at all, tailwind/short downhill,
about 20-25 kph, sun in your face, nice countryside to watch.

I can easily live without a taller gear than 48/11, since I wouldn't be
using it *much*. I'd just like to have it for those occasions. Also, I
much prefer pedaling slowly through downhills, with some resistance behind
the pedals, to outright coasting. Not so much to add speed, but just
because I prefer it.

Hey, I'm weird, so sue me.


Jasper

[Simon Cooper]

"Dave Larrington" > wrote in message
t...
> In article >, Jasper Janssen
> ) wrote:
>
> > Yeah, but a) they're expensive ($50 for the mounts, $60 or so for the
> > shifters) and b) I kinda like my Rapidfire plus right shifter pod. DA
> > barends (which those take) are still pure friction on the left, aren't
> > they?
>
> Indeed they are.
>
> > Anyway, for just a left shifter, I could just as easily, and much
> > cheaperlier, use an actual thumbshifter from the days of yore, and/or a
> > new Tourney one -- I saw that they appear to be back in production, or
at
> > least the QBP catalog on the Harris site now again lists them, in even
> > simpler variations than before, as available. I'm considering going to a
> > friction thumbie on the left anyway, because the indexing just doesn't
> > seem to be all that hot.
>
> Grip-shift of the "several clicks per chainring" type?

Exactly what I use on my flat bar bike. Really like them, most of the time.
Sometimes I overshift at the front, but I assume it's because I just don't
have enough miles with them.

[Sheldon Brown]

Jasper Janssen asked:

> Shimano these days has some components suitable for Flat Bar road bikes.
> Among these are some Rapidfire Plus pods in 8, 9 speed versions that don't
> mention anything specific about the front derailer -- these index with
> Shimano Road front derailers? Or Shimano Mountain?

They index with so-called "mountain" front derailers, and with the
special R443 "road" model.

Which derailer to use depends on the size of the largest chainring.

See: http://harriscyclery.com/derailers-front.html for details on this.

> Then, there's a 10
> speed pod, which say they need to be used with some front derailers made
> specially for it. Same question, Is that a road or mountain front index?
> Or something altogether incompatible?

So-called "mountain."
>
> Then the front derailers: They've all got road cages, obviously, but what
> do they index with? Road, Mountain, or something specific to those
> specific shift levers?

Shimano's so-called "road" derailers are designed for 52/53 tooth big
rings. They index with drop-bar (a.k.a. "road") shifters, with the
exception of the R443 mentioned above, which is the only one compatible
with _both_ flat bar shifters and a 52 tooth big ring.

The R443 works with all Shimano flat-bar shifters, despite what the
Shimano marketeers would have you believe.

Sheldon "Interchangeabilitude" Brown
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Military conscription is the worst form of slavery. |
| A more enlightened age will consider it a War Crime. |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> It would've been even easier to simply use Mountain pull, which'd let them
> use the *exact* same shifter pods as the mountain stuff, and simply put a
> road cage on a mountain parallellogram. And on the plus side this'd let
> people with otherwise mountain components run a road crank, rather than
> forcing them to get the derailer *and* the shifters, which makes it only a
> practical option when speccing a new bike.

Except that the mountain cages aren't made with "trimming" in mind. It's
reasonable to expect that you'd need a different cage (wider) without trim
than for one with trim.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Jasper Janssen" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 06:23:31 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> > wrote:
>
>>Unfortunately, no. The flat-bar road shift lever operates correctly only
>>with the appropriate flat-bar road front derailleur. There is no reason
>>whatsoever (at least none that I can think of) for Shimano not making the
>>flat-bar shift lever compatible with standard road front derailleurs, but
>>they didn't.
>
> It would've been even easier to simply use Mountain pull, which'd let them
> use the *exact* same shifter pods as the mountain stuff, and simply put a
> road cage on a mountain parallellogram. And on the plus side this'd let
> people with otherwise mountain components run a road crank, rather than
> forcing them to get the derailer *and* the shifters, which makes it only a
> practical option when speccing a new bike.
>
> Jasper

[Jasper Janssen]

On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 15:06:59 -0400, Sheldon Brown
> wrote:
>Jasper Janssen asked:

>> Then the front derailers: They've all got road cages, obviously, but what
>> do they index with? Road, Mountain, or something specific to those
>> specific shift levers?
>
>Shimano's so-called "road" derailers are designed for 52/53 tooth big
>rings. They index with drop-bar (a.k.a. "road") shifters, with the
>exception of the R443 mentioned above, which is the only one compatible
>with _both_ flat bar shifters and a 52 tooth big ring.
>
>The R443 works with all Shimano flat-bar shifters, despite what the
>Shimano marketeers would have you believe.

Awesome. That'd make a changeover (to a road crank, with matching R443,
while keeping the shifters) fairly painless. Thanks, Sheldon.

Now they just need to make mountain derailers with road cable pull, for
those strange people that want (mostly) MTB gear with road bars -- mostly
sold as 'randonneurs' in these here parts. And, of course, STI shifters
compatible with V-brakes.

Jasper

[Lou Holtman]

Jasper Janssen wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Apr 2006 14:00:09 +0200, "Lou Holtman" >
> wrote:
>
>>"Jasper Janssen" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>Myeah. I suppose for that matter that 559-47 isn't all that different in
>>>diameter from 622-23 -- let's see, 559+2x47=559+94=653,
>>>622+2x23=622+46=668. Still a little bit of difference, but.. my shameful
>>>secret is that I use fairly low RPMs, especially when I'm just cruising,
>>>and the 46/48 (whichever it is) by 11 is sometimes just a bit anemic. Not
>>>by much, mind you, but I think I'd like to have a slightly larger gear
>>>available. On the other hand, I don't really *need* it. Enh. I'll see what
>>>happens when I break this crank.
>
>
>>At what speed/RPM are you 'cruising' if 48/11 is not a large enough gear?
>
>
> 40, 50 rpm, not putting out much power at all, tailwind/short downhill,
> about 20-25 kph, sun in your face, nice countryside to watch.
>
> I can easily live without a taller gear than 48/11, since I wouldn't be
> using it *much*. I'd just like to have it for those occasions. Also, I
> much prefer pedaling slowly through downhills, with some resistance behind
> the pedals, to outright coasting. Not so much to add speed, but just
> because I prefer it.
>
> Hey, I'm weird, so sue me.
>

Why would I sue you? I'm just suprised that someone who took so much
time figuring out what kind of bike and components he needs discovers
after a couple of rides that he wants different gears and confronted
with the incompatibility of the crank he really wants and the FD and
shifters he got.
Weird. Don't sue me ;-)

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu

[JeffWills]

Jasper Janssen wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 15:06:59 -0400, Sheldon Brown
> > wrote:
> >Jasper Janssen asked:
>
> >> Then the front derailers: They've all got road cages, obviously, but what
> >> do they index with? Road, Mountain, or something specific to those
> >> specific shift levers?
> >
> >Shimano's so-called "road" derailers are designed for 52/53 tooth big
> >rings. They index with drop-bar (a.k.a. "road") shifters, with the
> >exception of the R443 mentioned above, which is the only one compatible
> >with _both_ flat bar shifters and a 52 tooth big ring.
> >
> >The R443 works with all Shimano flat-bar shifters, despite what the
> >Shimano marketeers would have you believe.

Yessireebob. I have a R443 front derailing-thingy, "road" size
chainrings (52-39-26), and ancient XTR (M900-series) shifters.
Everything indexes just fine.

Jeff

[Sheldon Brown]

Jasper Janssen wrote:

> Now they just need to make mountain derailers with road cable pull, for
> those strange people that want (mostly) MTB gear with road bars -- mostly
> sold as 'randonneurs' in these here parts.

Lots of folks would like that, especially hard core touring cyclists.

They used to make such a derailer, the RSX 1997 and earlier, but they
discontinued it.

We bought a ton of 'em on closeout, but eventually sold through all of them.

> And, of course, STI shifters compatible with V-brakes.

Don't hold your breath on that! It's very difficult to imagine a drop
bar shifter that will have sufficient cable pull and also permit braking
from the hoods.

Yes, I know about the Dia Compe 287V, which sorta works, but it doesn't
work up to Shimano's standards.

Sheldon "Need To Redesign The Human Hand First" Brown
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http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

[Jasper Janssen]

On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 17:56:08 -0400, Sheldon Brown
> wrote:

>Sheldon "Need To Redesign The Human Hand First" Brown

Sounds like a good place to start. Which biotech company do you think will
be the first?

Jasper

[Matt O'Toole]

On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 17:56:08 -0400, Sheldon Brown wrote:

> Jasper Janssen wrote:

>> And, of course, STI shifters compatible with V-brakes.

> Don't hold your breath on that! It's very difficult to imagine a drop
> bar shifter that will have sufficient cable pull and also permit braking
> from the hoods.

How about V-brakes compatible with STI shifters? It should be easy enough
to change the length of the arms.

Matt O.

[JeffWills]

Matt O'Toole wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 17:56:08 -0400, Sheldon Brown wrote:
>
> > Jasper Janssen wrote:
>
> >> And, of course, STI shifters compatible with V-brakes.
>
> > Don't hold your breath on that! It's very difficult to imagine a drop
> > bar shifter that will have sufficient cable pull and also permit braking
> > from the hoods.
>
> How about V-brakes compatible with STI shifters? It should be easy enough
> to change the length of the arms.
>
> Matt O.

Like Tektro Mini-V's?
http://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cgi?&d=singlel&item_id=TK-MINIVS

Jeff

[Jasper Janssen]

On 6 Apr 2006 20:42:04 -0700, "JeffWills" > wrote:
>Matt O'Toole wrote:
>> On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 17:56:08 -0400, Sheldon Brown wrote:
>>
>> > Jasper Janssen wrote:
>>
>> >> And, of course, STI shifters compatible with V-brakes.
>>
>> > Don't hold your breath on that! It's very difficult to imagine a drop
>> > bar shifter that will have sufficient cable pull and also permit braking
>> > from the hoods.
>>
>> How about V-brakes compatible with STI shifters? It should be easy enough
>> to change the length of the arms.
>>
>> Matt O.
>
>Like Tektro Mini-V's?
>http://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cgi?&d=singlel&item_id=TK-MINIVS

Problem with those is that you're back at not being able to use huge tyres
again, due solely to the height limitation (width is solvable by having a
fork with the canti studs farther apart, ala Surly).

Jasper

[Matt O'Toole]

On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 19:36:10 +0000, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

> Except that the mountain cages aren't made with "trimming" in mind. It's
> reasonable to expect that you'd need a different cage (wider) without trim
> than for one with trim.

This is true. Do you remember that the original 7sp Rapidfire Plus had
trim, but the later 8sp stuff did not?

With a trimmable shifter, the old (early 90s) Deore DX front derailer will
shift almost anything. I've used it with chainrings as small as 22T and
as large as 50T with no problems. I know others who have used bigger than
that.

Matt O.