Pondering on a Schlumpf - questions [Archive]

gkmac

April 5th 06, 04:02 PM

There's a distinct possibility of me breaking my new years resolution of
buying another unicycle. I bought a 24" muni last year, a 6ft giraffe
the year before, and a 20" freestyle in 2003.

I think my next venture will be some kind of 29er for long pavements
and roads, and let's be honest... I want to go for broke and get a
Schlumf geared uni.

First question (possibly stupid): is it possible to idle and ride it
backwards? I'm thinking if I need to idle it in case of sudden
obstructions ahead, somehow my mind says it may not be possible with
geared mechanisms.

Second question: as seen in 'this picture' (http://tinyurl.com/fqtbr)
the hub clearly says "please read instructions carefully, especially
for off-road and free-riding". What exactly are the issues when it
comes to off-road riding? Smooth-ish gravel tracks will be the roughest
terrain I plan to ride it on, so I'm more curious that worried.

Third question: what size cranks do you recommend? I'm so used to the
150mm cranks on my 24" muni that the 127mm ones on my freestyle feel so
twiddly and small for my extra long legs (34"-35" inseam). I was
thinking about 140mm but that doesn't seem to be an option on
unicycle.uk.com, so it's gonna have to be 127mm or 152mm...

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pdc

April 5th 06, 04:13 PM

I'd wait for the splined version coming out later this year.

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gkmac

April 5th 06, 04:17 PM

pdc wrote:
> I'd wait for the splined version coming out later this year.

Hmm, I just knew somebody was going to say that!

Yes I am aware that Kris Holm Unicycles has joined up with Florian to
make a splined geared Muni (I've read the Moab threads) which could be
available in 29er size as well.

However, this is a long pavement/road machine that I have in mind
(nothing extreme) so the current Schlumpf will do just fine for me.

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Gilby

April 5th 06, 04:48 PM

gkmac wrote:
> First question (possibly stupid): is it possible to idle and ride it
> backwards? I'm thinking if I need to idle it in case of sudden
> obstructions ahead, somehow my mind says it may not be possible with
> geared mechanisms.

You can do all that and anything else you could do on a non-geared uni.
There will just be a little backlash that you may feel.

gkmac wrote:
> Second question: as seen in 'this picture' (http://tinyurl.com/fqtbr)
> the hub clearly says "please read instructions carefully, especially
> for off-road and free-riding". What exactly are the issues when it
> comes to off-road riding? Smooth-ish gravel tracks will be the roughest
> terrain I plan to ride it on, so I'm more curious that worried.

I can find the manual, but I think it just spells out that it's not a
muni. On the Laos Unitour, Florian mentioned (jokingly?) it's not
warrentied for any drop larger than 3 meters as we were looking down a
cliff.

gkmac wrote:
> Third question: what size cranks do you recommend? I'm so used to the
> 150mm cranks on my 24" muni that the 127mm ones on my freestyle feel so
> twiddly and small for my extra long legs (34"-35" inseam). I was
> thinking about 140mm but that doesn't seem to be an option on
> unicycle.uk.com, so it's gonna have to be 127mm or 152mm...

I have 125 mm cranks and they are the best for long distance in my
opinion. But this is not an opinion shared by all. On the Laos tour,
only Ken Looi and I had cranks this short. I think most others had
somewhere around 165mm. So, I'd recommend going with as short of cranks
that you are comfortable riding with. You can start longer and change
them to shorter once you get proficient at riding the uni.

And no, you don't have to wait for the splined one if you are doing
long distance riding or communting.

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David_Stone

April 5th 06, 04:55 PM

gkmac wrote:
> I want to go for broke and get a Schlumf geared uni.

Is that a reference to its price? It's not that much, really -- a lot
cheaper than taking public transportation or driving (and paying for
petrol and parking). That's my excuse!

> First question (possibly stupid): is it possible to idle and ride it
> backwards? I'm thinking if I need to idle it in case of sudden
> obstructions ahead, somehow my mind says it may not be possible with
> geared mechanisms.

There are no stupid questions, only stupid people who ask questions
that everyone else knows the answer to.

Kidding aside, yes, you can ride it just as a regular uni. Proviso: In
high gear, it's really hard to ride backwards or to idle. Since you
mention that you're not going to be 'off-roading' a lot, I'd go for the
less expensive guni that's available now rather than waiting for the
uber-hub coming out this summer. But if you foresee lots of curbs
(kerbs, I mean) in your future, or other slight drops, perhaps it'd be
best to wait.

> Third question: what size cranks do you recommend? I'm so used to the
> 150mm cranks on my 24" muni that the 127mm ones on my freestyle feel so
> twiddly and small for my extra long legs (34"-35" inseam). I was
> thinking about 140mm but that doesn't seem to be an option on
> unicycle.uk.com, so it's gonna have to be 127mm or 152mm...

It depends on your skill. If you are a really good rider, you could get
used to the speedier 127s. I am glad I have them. If your riding will
include lots of stoplights and other slowdowns, I'd consider longer
cranks. Also, if you don't like going fast, definitely get the 152s for
the greater control. If you are used to going quickly, get the smaller
cranks. It's going to take you quite some time to feel comfortable
riding in high gear on 127s, but for me it was worth it.

If you have lots of uphills in your future, either get the 127s and
plan to downshift a lot, or get the 152s and leave it in high gear when
possible.

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joemarshall

April 5th 06, 04:59 PM

gkmac wrote:
> picture[/URL] the hub clearly says "please read instructions carefully,
> especially for off-road and free-riding". What exactly are the issues
> when it comes to off-road riding? Smooth-ish gravel tracks will be the
> roughest terrain I plan to ride it on, so I'm more curious that
> worried.
>

The hub says that on it, but the instructions don't say anything about
off road and free-riding. Roger sold mine to me for using in a mountain
bike race (xc, without drops), so I guess it's okay as long as you're
not doing drops.

They do sell 140mm cranks for it according to schlumpf.ch, so I'm sure
Roger from unicycle.com can get hold of them.

I've got one, and I'd say that it really might be worth waiting for the
KH one. Not because of the hub, you probably don't need a splined hub
for what you're talking about, but for the frame. I think the new hub
comes with a cunning torque lever attachment so that you can use a
standard and well tested KH frame, rather than having to use the
Schlumpf frame.

From the brief amount of riding I've been able to do on it, I'm happy
with the hub, but the frame was poo. It broke after five hours riding.
Snapped through. According to Schlumpf, I think it's because the
instructions didn't tell you that you need to torque up the 8 bolts to
adjust the seatpost exactly right or something. In the case that you
don't, the very thin braces holding the seatpost can snap right
through. I'd not trust it for any long ride, unless you ride with a
support crew, you really need to be confident that you're not going to
be left unable to ride 50 miles away from home, that could be one
expensive taxi ride.

Even without that, the frame is rubbish for several reasons. Firstly,
there are 8 bolts you need to undo to adjust the seatpost. Which all
have to be tightened up exactly right or else it'll spontaneously snap
after a few hours riding. Secondly it's a very tall frame, I'm normal
sized (5ft 10) and I was hitting the frame sometimes on mounts, it's
about 4 inches taller than a Nimbus 29" frame. I'm currently still
waiting for a replacement frame, which hopefully will be different to
avoid these issues, but I've not been able to ride mine for about four
months now.

From my riding, it's easy to idle in slow mode and okay in fast mode,
kind of like idling a coker, except with a little bit of backlash each
time you idle, kind of like when the cranks are loose on a normal uni.
You can ride it backwards just fine.

Cranks wise, I'd suggest start off with something like 150s, if you're
not used to riding a big wheel with short cranks already.

Joe

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David_Stone

April 5th 06, 05:48 PM

joemarshall wrote:
> I'd not trust it for any long ride, unless you ride with a support crew,
> you really need to be confident that you're not going to be left unable
> to ride 50 miles away from home, that could be one expensive taxi ride.

I never knew that. My frame came direct from Florian, assembled minus
the pedals. The post included was too long and had to be cut down, but
afterwards I was good to go. I have ridden 650 miles so far, 90 in one
day, and have not heard of others having frame problems other than the
size. I know that many riders on the Laos tour had Schlumpfs including
Ken Looi, who has also ridden his quite far.

> Even without that, the frame is rubbish for several reasons. Firstly,
> there are 8 bolts you need to undo to adjust the seatpost. Which all
> have to be tightened up exactly right or else it'll spontaneously snap
> after a few hours riding.

I don't think I follow your meaning. I have a few more bolts than usual
on the seat itself, but the post goes into the frame and is held there
by a round sleeve with two bolts. Loosen those, and you can move the
seat post up and down.

> Secondly it's a very tall frame, I'm normal sized (5ft 10) and I was
> hitting the frame sometimes on mounts, it's about 4 inches taller than
> a Nimbus 29" frame. I'm currently still waiting for a replacement
> frame, which hopefully will be different to avoid these issues, but
> I've not been able to ride mine for about four months now.

Yeah, it's annoying that the frame was so high, but I guess that was in
order to accomodate certain tire types. It's a drag, tho, that the 1st
and 2nd generation hubs can only be used with the Schlumpf frame owing
to the way the hub works.

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Gilby

April 5th 06, 05:55 PM

David_Stone wrote:
> I don't think I follow your meaning. I have a few more bolts than usual
> on the seat itself, but the post goes into the frame and is held there
> by a round sleeve with two bolts. Loosen those, and you can move the
> seat post up and down.

You (and I) have the first generation aluminum frame. There was a
sourcing/quality issue with these, so Schlumpf made a completely
different frame, as seen in this photo: [image:
http://laosunitour.org/images/florians/1.jpg]

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David_Stone

April 5th 06, 08:24 PM

Wow, Gilby. Thanks. That design is really different, and I can see why
someone would be unhappy with it. I also notice that the part that
holds the hub (at the bottom of the frame) is different, too.

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andytait

April 6th 06, 01:07 PM

Glad to see this conversation, it's answering a few questions for me
too. I am considering a Shlumph and have decided to wait for the KH
splined version.

Mainly because I do easy trail (canal tow path) riding with a few
shallow steps and sometimes end up with loose cranks after a few miles.
Splined is just so much a better engineering solution to the problem
than squeezing a taper in soft metal.

Also I must consider that one day I might be somewhere I want to take
it off road or can't resist a few drops and I wouldn't want to be
worried about breaking several hundreds of pounds worth of uni, better
eliminate that possibility and get the best I can afford first time
round. This has proved true with my other unis, I started with low spec
stuff and within months ended up making expensive upgrades.

I would like to know though, if anyone knows yet, will I be able to buy
the hub and have it built into a setup I already own?

Andy

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unisteve

April 6th 06, 05:11 PM

andytait wrote:
> I would like to know though, if anyone knows yet, will I be able to buy
> the hub and have it built into a setup I already own?
>
> Andy

According to the big thread on the KH geared uni, the hub assembly and
such will be most of the uni's price, so you might as well buy the
whole thing and get a cool frame and seat rather than save a couple
hundred bucks (or pounds).

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johnfoss

April 6th 06, 06:35 PM

gkmac wrote:
> is it possible to idle and ride it backwards? I'm thinking if I need to
> idle it in case of sudden obstructions ahead, somehow my mind says it
> may not be possible with geared mechanisms.

I don't own a Schlumpf but I've ridden some, and I can at least respond
to your first question. When in the geared mode, it will idle or go
backward similar to a Coker. Which means you *can* idle, but it's
probably the last thing you would want to do in an urban situation when
you encounter an obstacle. Of course the smaller wheel will make the
idle take up a littl less space, but still idling is not necessarily
the best option on a high-speed uni.

I never idle or go backwards on my Coker unless I'm specifically trying
to, and I only do that when I have lots of space. When commuting or
otherwise Cokering, If something gets in my way I'll either go around,
or stop. No problem. I guess that's what I would do on a bike anyway.

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flyer

April 6th 06, 09:09 PM

This answered a lot of questions for me as well. I can't blame you guys
for not stress testing your really expensive unis, but if I can't be
rolling off/hopping up curbs I think I'll wait for the kh hub and be
able to do what I want with it, peace of mind intact.

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gkmac

April 6th 06, 11:25 PM

My questions were answered, but dilemmas are increasing about the
square-tapered-Schlumpf-now versus splined-KH/Schlumpf-later.

There seem to be mixed opinions about the abuse it can take. Some
people here seem to say that simple kerb-dropping can damage it,
whereas it seems to be warrantied for drops up to 3 metres and 'Gilby
hops up stairs' (http://tinyurl.com/lp8g6) with his. I do envisage
riding down the odd kerb every now and then with whatever I buy.

But are they talking about breaking the hub, or just the fact that the
square-tapered cranks would need tightening regularly if kerbs did form
part of the ride? I did look at 'David Stone's'
(http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48188) problem with
his loose crank, and it seems the gear-shift buttons being where the
crank nuts should be means that the supposedly simple maintenance task
of tightening cranks becomes bloody complicated.

I've seen pictures of the frame and I do agree its a bit strange,
having just two arms holding onto the seatpost instead of it being
inside a long tube. Being about 6' 2" with a 35" inseam, the height
isn't a problem for me.

I started this thread now because if I were to get one now, I'd collect
it at the British Unicycle Convention which is in about a months time,
as the prospect of putting something very expensive into the hands of
people like ParcelForce frightens me.

But if I were to wait for the splined one, it doesn't seem to be that
long of a wait. Kris Holm sets a target for "July" or "late summer"...
for the US I presume. It would take longer than that to reach the UK,
it would be about halfway between British Unicycle Conventions. $1600
uni in the hands of people like ParcelForce???

Decisions decisions...:confused:

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Gilby

April 7th 06, 03:13 AM

gkmac wrote:
> But if I were to wait for the splined one, it doesn't seem to be that
> long of a wait. Kris Holm sets a target for "July" or "late summer"...
> for the US I presume.

Keep in mind that it's been typical for the actual availablity date for
any new unicycle have taken longer than initially expected. Especially
when dealing with small companies, both of which have high quality
standards. If one thing is not right going into production, it could
mean a few months delay. So, while it'd be great if late summer was
when they'd be available, I wouldn't bet on it.

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Klaas Bil

April 7th 06, 07:56 AM

On Thu, 6 Apr 2006 12:35:43 -0500, johnfoss wrote:

>Of course the smaller wheel will make the
>idle take up a littl less space

The amplitude of the movement (the distance that you go to and fro) is
not so much related to wheel size but to crank position, I think. The
only reason the idle should take less space is that the smaller wheel
itself takes less space. However, the virtual wheel diameter of the
Schlumpf 29'er is about 45", significantly more than a 36" Coker. So
all in all, idling will probably take MORE space.

This is all theoretical since I can't idle the Schlumpf in high gear.

andytait

April 7th 06, 09:49 AM

OK, next question, aimed at those with experience of Cokers and geared
unis. I have experience of neither.

The fact that a coker rolls so nicely is, I presume, mainly due to the
weight of the wheel in motion (angular momentum I think is the
technical term) combined with the size of the wheel. So small bumps etc
get soaked up.

With a smaller wheel, geared up to an equivalent size, do you get the
same effect? The wheel weighs less but is rotating faster so the
momentum could be roughly the same, but the diameter is smaller so
presumably it won't roll over a bumpy surface quite as well as a large
wheel.

Andy

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GizmoDuck

April 7th 06, 11:32 AM

andytait wrote:
> OK, next question, aimed at those with experience of Cokers and geared
> unis. I have experience of neither.
>
> The fact that a coker rolls so nicely is, I presume, mainly due to the
> weight of the wheel in motion (angular momentum I think is the
> technical term) combined with the size of the wheel. So small bumps etc
> get soaked up.
>
> With a smaller wheel, geared up to an equivalent size, do you get the
> same effect? The wheel weighs less but is rotating faster so the
> momentum could be roughly the same, but the diameter is smaller so
> presumably it won't roll over a bumpy surface quite as well as a large
> wheel.
>
> Andy

That's exactly right...The Schlumpf takes more concentration to ride,
as small bumps tend to throw you off more, due to the smaller wheel and
higher gear.

Small bumps get soaked up by a Coker (remember also that a Coker tyre
is HUGE, even if it doesn't look it). But more importantly it rolls
over small irregularities due to the larger diameter. I reckon if you
could get a Coker wheel to weigh the same or less than a Schlumpf wheel
that it will still feel more stable.

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Brian MacKenzie

April 7th 06, 12:01 PM

GizmoDuck wrote:
> (remember also that a Coker tyre is HUGE, even if it doesn't look it)

It looks it

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GizmoDuck

April 7th 06, 12:17 PM

Brian MacKenzie wrote:
> It looks it

:D What I meant was that it doesn't look as big as something like a
Gazzoloddi tyre would look on a 26" wheel, but I think it's similar to
my 26x2.6 Gazz Jnr because it is just as tight a fit on the hooks I use
to hang the Unicycles up with. I think it's bigger than the Big Apple
in it's crossection.

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TonyMelton

April 7th 06, 01:36 PM

gkmac wrote:
> square-tapered-Schlumpf-now versus splined-KH/Schlumpf-later.
>
> There seem to be mixed opinions about the abuse it can take. Some
> people here seem to say that simple kerb-dropping can damage it,
> whereas it seems to be warrantied for drops up to 3 metres and 'Gilby
> hops up stairs' (http://tinyurl.com/lp8g6) with his. I do envisage
> riding down the odd kerb every now and then with whatever I buy.

I thought that you can use any square taper cranks with the Schlumpf
hub. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong). So this means that its the
strength of square taper cranks vs splined cranks that you are really
comparing. Most unicyclists are familiar with the issues here. Square
taper cranks aren't as strong, but they are certainly strong enough to
do some hopping on and for a uni that will be ridden largely as a road
machine, perfectly strong enough. Splined cranks are overkill (and not
to mention heavier, too) for your purposes. Just get some strong square
taper cranks and you'll be fine with the standard Schlumpf hub.

Here's a pic of me jumping over Ken on Florian's 26" Schlumpf
http://tinyurl.com/f22ts

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GizmoDuck

April 7th 06, 02:19 PM

TonyMelton wrote:
> I thought that you can use any square taper cranks with the Schlumpf
> hub. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong). So this means that its the
> strength of square taper cranks vs splined cranks that you are really
> comparing. Most unicyclists are familiar with the issues here. Square
> taper cranks aren't as strong, but they are certainly strong enough to
> do some hopping on and for a uni that will be ridden largely as a road
> machine, perfectly strong enough. Splined cranks are overkill (and not
> to mention heavier, too) for your purposes. Just get some strong square
> taper cranks and you'll be fine with the standard Schlumpf hub.
>
> Here's a pic of me jumping over Ken on Florian's 26" Schlumpf
> http://tinyurl.com/f22ts

I think any square taper crank should work, provided that they leave
enough room for the shifter button. Florians cranks are really nice
though- they work great on non-geared hubs.

Splined cranks are really only heavier than non-splined cranks on
unicycles because they are designed for trials use on unicycles. The
splined cranks on my Road Bike are really light. Would be nice to have
a full alloy splined crankset for road/XC Muni use- steel is overkill
IMHO. And it rusts too.

Ken

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forget_your_life

April 7th 06, 05:21 PM

> I'll wait for the kh hub and be able to do what I want with it, peace of
> mind intact.

i wouldnt be to peaceful with the 1st run of these hubs. theres just to
much evidence that when you try to gear up a hub and make it shift on
the fly that something can go wrong.

im sure it can be made to be very reliable but its almost a sure thing
that the 1st run will have issues....scary.

how can the little bits and gears or what-ever is in that hub withstand
the forces at work? i mean, come on. how are you going to insure that
it wont get hung up between the gears over time and general wear and
tear?

has anyone has ever been on a 3sp bike and suddenly lost contact with
the drive because the gears slipped into void thats created over time?
imagine that happening on a MUni.

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David_Stone

April 8th 06, 01:49 AM

gkmac wrote:
> I did look at 'David Stone's'
> (http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48188) problem with
> his loose crank, and it seems the gear-shift buttons being where the
> crank nuts should be means that the supposedly simple maintenance task
> of tightening cranks becomes bloody complicated.

I have a feeling now that most of the trouble I had was with me. I
didn't know how easy the 'repair' would be. Luckily another Dave was
finally able to get the silver button off (it was a bit 'sticky'), and
after that, the crank-tightening was a breeze -- like a normal crank.

I'm still nervous about drops of even 8 inches. Today I dismounted to
avoid one, but perhaps I'm being too cautious. I just have the feeling
that the inner workings of the hub are going to be damaged. Time will
tell, I guess.

If I were in your position, I'd wait till the summer. But if you don't
need the higher-performance hub for drops, get the less expensive uni
that's available now (unless you mind that newer frame).

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unisk8r

April 8th 06, 04:37 AM

andytait wrote:
> OK, next question, aimed at those with experience of Cokers and geared
> unis. I have experience of neither.
>
> The fact that a coker rolls so nicely is, I presume, mainly due to the
> weight of the wheel in motion (angular momentum I think is the
> technical term) combined with the size of the wheel. So small bumps etc
> get soaked up.
>
> With a smaller wheel, geared up to an equivalent size, do you get the
> same effect? The wheel weighs less but is rotating faster so the
> momentum could be roughly the same, but the diameter is smaller so
> presumably it won't roll over a bumpy surface quite as well as a large
> wheel.
>
> Andy

There's the effective wheel diameter (EWD) due to gearing, and the
actual wheel diameter (AWD). Compare a 24" AWD geared up 1.5 to 36"
EWD, to an actual 36". The larger actual wheel will always roll nicer
than the smaller actual, regardless of EWD.
Speaking for myself, I have chosen to gear up 36" wheels only, due to
the nicer ride of the larger AWD over most road surfaces. A 29" may be
easier to mount & ride, but for any distance, the roll's the thing.
And IMHO the rotating mass of the wheel has little to do with the ride.
The 36" tire volume probably adds more to the ride characteristics
than the weight.

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