Advice for mountain Cokering [Archive]

tommillermn

May 10th 06, 10:14 PM

I'm fishing for advice on how best to deal with the terrain in the high
mountains of Colorado on my Coker. I dropped $65 to register for the
Iron Horse this year and have been getting in tons of bike, mtb, muni,
and Coker miles over the past few months and fitness-wise I'll be as
ready as I'm going to be. I wanted to know from those who swim with
the two-wheelers what I need to know about dealing with cyclists coming
up behind me on the descents, coping with lllloooonnnngggg, steep
stretches of road (up and down), and anything you've learned the hard
way so I don't have to.
My Coker has a caliper brake that I can fit with either a brake
lever or thumbshifter and I'm even considering riding about half the
ride on a 29er for the better climbing gear and slower speed for the
steep descents. Thanks to all for your advice.
Tom Miller
Kokopelli Bike and Board
Cortez, CO

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trials_uni

May 10th 06, 10:17 PM

send a pm to brian mackenzie on these fora...that or aspenmike...i think
those would be the 2 guys to talk to about coker muni.

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terrybigwheel

May 10th 06, 10:40 PM

U-Turn

May 10th 06, 10:46 PM

terrybigwheel wrote:
> Why do you even want to use your coker for muni? Why not get a 24, or
> 26, or even your 29, but a 36???

'cuz it's a blast.

--
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uni57

May 10th 06, 10:52 PM

terrybigwheel wrote:
> Why do you even want to use your coker for muni?

I -think- he's talking about road (distance) riding in a mountainous
area.

In that case, people like Nathan Hoover, John Stone, and others who do
the various European unicycle tours would give the best advice.

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terrybigwheel

May 10th 06, 10:54 PM

U-Turn wrote:
> 'cuz it's a blast.

But are they "practical" for muni, especially the more "trialsy", rocky
type trails? Big drops, gapping, hopping, etc, or are you thinking more
"rolling" type muni? Do you think, in time, that the 36" size will
overtake the stadard 24/26 in popularity for muni? I have a coker, but
it's the basic one, so the rim would fold really easily on even short
drops.

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U-Turn

May 10th 06, 11:12 PM

terrybigwheel wrote:
> But are they "practical" for muni, especially the more "trialsy", rocky
> type trails? Big drops, gapping, hopping, etc, or are you thinking more
> "rolling" type muni? Do you think, in time, that the 36" size will
> overtake the stadard 24/26 in popularity for muni? I have a coker, but
> it's the basic one, so the rim would fold really easily on even short
> drops.

Well, with the latest advances (widened hub, airfoil rim, s-steel
spokes, Stockton build, 29er tube, Wallis saddle/handle, Hunter frame),
a -36" MUni is the *same weight* as an older 24" MUni-. Couple that
with trials-quality cranks and excellent pedals, and you're talking
about rolling log piles (see Brian's footage), easily doing big drops,
whipping through stuff you had to work through on your 24". That's
practical. Whether it will become the "standard" MUni -- I kinda doubt
it, because it's slightly heavier (coupla pounds) than the
equivalently-advanced 24".

It's really an individual preference. This is a new situation; only
about 4 years ago the conventional wisdom was: 20" is for trials only,
24" is for MUni, 26" is too weak for technical MUni but ok for X-C, 29"
is too weak for technical MUni but ok for X-C, and Cokers were too weak
for anything but road riding by light persons.

Now the wisdom is: Select your size based on your preference and riding
goals, since all five are available in versions that are tough enough
for just about anything. {The jury is still out on 29ers, though;
neither I nor anyone else has seriously gone after that size for huge
stuff; though Jag has done some, and I know that Ben's done some great
off-road with a 29er I built for him, including some 2' drops at a
skate park (vid available), the Lifestyles race, and the Mt. Washington
Hill Climb (vid available)}

I'm not saying that stock versions of those sizes are tough enough.
Even matching component lists does not guarantee that a uni is tough;
the build is equally important. Just because Joe Schmo has the same
recipe and ingredients as Master Chef XYZ doesn't mean his omelette
will taste as good!

--
U-Turn

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trials_uni

May 10th 06, 11:15 PM

terry click the strongest coker wheel link in u-turns sig...you will see
what a well built coker wheel can really take.

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GizmoDuck

May 10th 06, 11:30 PM

Cokers are great for fast, non-techincal MUni. If you have a
lightweight wheel- there's an amazing amount of terrain that can be
covered. I've done several 100km+ Mountainbike races and there is no
way I would have done these on a smaller wheel- it would have taken
forever.

The best upgrade for an offroad Coker is a tubelss tyre and an airfoil
rim :)

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tomblackwood

May 11th 06, 12:33 AM

Back to topic, please. The Iron Horse is a road race, pedalers versus a
train. It isn't offroad muni...it's all pavement over big Colorado
passes. I believe that Aspenmike is the only person that has ridden it
start to finish. You should PM him if he doesn't jump on this thread.

I did a quick search and found 'this'
(http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40525) thread on
last year's event. Mike did a super-detailed write-up of his ride
experience last year.

Good luck Tom...it sounds like a great event. Maybe you and Mike will
double down on the uni finishers this year.

--
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terrybigwheel

May 11th 06, 12:40 AM

trials_uni wrote:
> terry click the strongest coker wheel link in u-turns sig...you will see
> what a well built coker wheel can really take.

It just seems to me that because of the super large wheel and added
weight, pedalling uphill would be much harder, and of course, brakes
would be a must, but usesless in steep DH rocky terrain. Cokers are
hard to stop at higher speeds; at least quickly, if you either don't
have, or can't use the brakes. Plus there is significantly less
Maneuverability than a 24. But still sounds like it would be fun, at
least as a novelty.

--
terrybigwheel

Impotence: Nature's Way Of Saying "No Hard Feelings".

Uni is just a cycle I'm going through. :cool:

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James_Potter

May 11th 06, 01:13 AM

terrybigwheel

May 11th 06, 01:22 AM

James_Potter wrote:
> They're fantabulous for cross country, not very technical MUni, but not
> for natural trials, which is what you're talking about I think.
> So anyway...long cranks are good for coker MUni. How long depends on
> how heavy your wheelset is, and how strong your legs are. I have the
> airfoil wheelset, so I have 150mm cranks, which work well for hills.

150's? The average muni, at least the KH 24 freeride has 165's, and
that's on a 24! So 150's on a 36" wheel would be like that same kh with
110's, or even shorter, which doesn't seem very eficient or practical
for muni, unless your on flat ground most of the time. To get
comparable "torque" capability for the coker, wouldn't you need a much
LONGER crank, say at least 180s? Just curious.

--
terrybigwheel

Impotence: Nature's Way Of Saying "No Hard Feelings".

Uni is just a cycle I'm going through. :cool:

You -can- "Tune a fish". You simply adjust their "scales"! :D
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James_Potter

May 11th 06, 01:27 AM

I don't know much about a real 24" MUni, since I've never ridden
one...but I find that with a regular coker rim, since its so heavy, you
need about 170mm cranks, but with the airfoil, 150mm are fine...could
just be me though....

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terrybigwheel

May 11th 06, 01:33 AM

James_Potter wrote:
> I don't know much about a real 24" MUni, since I've never ridden
> one...but I find that with a regular coker rim, since its so heavy, you
> need about 170mm cranks, but with the airfoil, 150mm are fine...could
> just be me though....

YOur coker is still a couple pounds heavier than a modern kh 24, and
yet your cranks are significantly shorter than the 24. Yes, you can
surly go faster, but I can't see how climbing and stopping (without
brakes) would be as easy as a 24 with 165's.

--
terrybigwheel

Impotence: Nature's Way Of Saying "No Hard Feelings".

Uni is just a cycle I'm going through. :cool:

You -can- "Tune a fish". You simply adjust their "scales"! :D
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Carey

May 11th 06, 02:56 AM

Tom,

I'll see you there. Look for me on a blue KH29XC with a Big Apple.

My plans are less ambitious than yours--my goal this year is Hermosa.

Best of luck as you prepare. I'll be rooting for you.

Carey

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tholub

May 11th 06, 03:14 AM

terrybigwheel wrote:
> YOur coker is still a couple pounds heavier than a modern kh 24, and yet
> your cranks are significantly shorter than the 24. Yes, you can surly
> go faster, but I can't see how climbing and stopping (without brakes)
> would be as easy as a 24 with 165's.

Cokering off-road isn't about doing things the easy way.

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loosejello

May 11th 06, 03:31 AM

I think cokering uphill is almost easier than a Muni, BECAUSE it's
bigger. I use 125s for around campus, with various short hills, and
they're fine. You can't really understand it if you haven't done it
before. It's the same as how someone who's never ridden a unicycle
before doesn't understand what it's like.

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James_Potter

May 11th 06, 03:35 AM

loosejello wrote:
> I think cokering uphill is almost easier than a Muni, BECAUSE it's
> bigger. I use 125s for around campus, with various short hills, and
> they're fine. You can't really understand it if you haven't done it
> before. It's the same as how someone who's never ridden a unicycle
> before doesn't understand what it's like.

Yep, because the wheel is so big and heavy, it practically keeps itself
going up hills, since its harder to stop. So if you can get going
before you reach the hill, you can use your momentum to keep going.

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terrybigwheel

May 11th 06, 04:05 AM

tholub wrote:
> Cokering off-road isn't about doing things the easy way.

Neither is Muni-ing on a 24! Try 5' drops and hopping and gapping
hardcore rocky/hilly terrain ona coker. It's hard enough on a 24.

--
terrybigwheel

Impotence: Nature's Way Of Saying "No Hard Feelings".

Uni is just a cycle I'm going through. :cool:

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GizmoDuck

May 11th 06, 04:06 AM

terrybigwheel wrote:
> It just seems to me that because of the super large wheel and added
> weight, pedalling uphill would be much harder, and of course, brakes
> would be a must, but usesless in steep DH rocky terrain. Cokers are
> hard to stop at higher speeds; at least quickly, if you either don't
> have, or can't use the brakes. Plus there is significantly less
> Maneuverability than a 24. But still sounds like it would be fun, at
> least as a novelty.

Are we talking about general riding or racing here? If we're talking
racing then a Coker or a 29'er would be ideal depending on the terrain.
24" would be way too slow.

If something is so steep it can't be ridden up on a Coker, then it's
quicker to get off and run.

You don't need brakes on a Coker either. Again- if something is so
steep/technical as to need brakes, you can almost always go faster by
running. I've run past many MTBkers on Downhills whilst they gingerly
squeeze their brakes to negotiate a techincal section. I don't find
brakes very useful at all on 24"- for any sort of riding. You have so
much leverage anyway, why would you need brakes?

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tholub

May 11th 06, 04:12 AM

terrybigwheel wrote:
> Neither is Muni-ing on a 24! Try 5' drops and hopping and gapping on
> hardcore rocky/hilly terrain on a coker. I'd love to see that,
> serioulsy that would be awasome to see! PLease do it asap then post a
> video. That stuff IS hard enough on a 24, at least for me. I don't
> think KH does muni on his 24" the "easy way".

Do you have a point?

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terrybigwheel

May 11th 06, 04:14 AM

GizmoDuck wrote:
> Are we talking about general riding or racing here? If we're talking
> racing then a Coker or a 29'er would be ideal depending on the terrain.
> 24" would be way too slow.
>
> If something is so steep it can't be ridden up on a Coker, then it's
> quicker to get off and run.
>
> You don't need brakes on a Coker either. Again- if something is so
> steep/technical as to need brakes, you can almost always go faster by
> running. I've run past many MTBkers on Downhills whilst they gingerly
> squeeze their brakes to negotiate a techincal section. I don't find
> brakes very useful at all on 24"- for any sort of riding. You have so
> much leverage anyway, why would you need brakes?

Well, you've all sold me! I'm gonna put my 24" in moth balls and do all
my Muni on my coker from now on! I guess now all we have to do is
convince the VAST majority of other muni-ers to make the switch to 36
as well!

Of course I realize that you're not trying to "convince" anybody, as
I'm just being Facetious. HA! :D

--
terrybigwheel

Impotence: Nature's Way Of Saying "No Hard Feelings".

Uni is just a cycle I'm going through. :cool:

You -can- "Tune a fish". You simply adjust their "scales"! :D
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U-Turn

May 11th 06, 04:44 AM

terrybigwheel wrote:
> Why do you even want to use your coker for muni? Why not get a 24, or
> 26, or even your 29, but a 36???

I think your question has been answered, am I correct? Look at the
course, choose your club, take a swing, have a good time.

I personally don't own a 24" (just sold a prototype that I never
rode), but use my 26" a lot. I'm an intermediate rider, in my
estimation, and figure that the wheel diameter is not my current
limitation. I've also spent a reasonable amount of time off-road on a
36", same story.

It should be obvious that each of the wheel sizes would have its own
unique set of characteristics based on: weight, size, and available
rims, hubs, and rubber. Those characteristics interact with the
characteristics of the terrain and of the rider's skill and riding
goals.

If the rider's goal is to gap the biggest gap, then probably the 36" is
not the right tool. Most riding, though, is a ever-changing mix of
many types of riding. If a rider is willing to ride miles at the mercy
of a 20" so that he can do a 10% bigger gap than the next guy, then
that's up to him; it fits his definition of a successful ride.

Tiger Woods putts with a putter, no? But I bet he could putt better
with any club in the bag than most of us could with a putter.

Part of my Coker wheel tests involved guys doing picnic tables, stairs,
and loading docks with my first 36" (at NAUCC 2003). It was pretty
amazing, and definitely surprising. I was hobbling around on a
sprained ankle from trying to hop over a couple of logs with the 26".

--
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harper

May 11th 06, 07:10 AM

This thread is about a road race, the Iron Horse race, in Colorado. It
is on pavement and has nothing to do with the tangential topic of Coker
MUni-ing. Aspenmike finished this route and Tom Blackwood made a link
to his writeup. There were a couple of other unicyclists involved in
the road race last year and their contributions here would be very
helpful to tommillermn. This is not about MUni although the title of
the thread has the word mountain in it which makes it somewhat
confusing. This is about a road race on pavement in the mountains. No
dirt, no roots, no rocks, no technical.

--
harper

-Greg Harper

B L U E S H I F T

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This is still my nth post....*AWESOME!!!*

><>FISHING FOR A UNICYCLE<><
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terrybigwheel

May 11th 06, 05:11 PM

tholub wrote:
> Do you have a point?

Just a response to that quoted text in my reply.

--
terrybigwheel

Impotence: Nature's Way Of Saying "No Hard Feelings".

Uni is just a cycle I'm going through. :cool:

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MrBoogiejuice

May 11th 06, 05:33 PM

I do a fair bit of off-road on my coker. It's pretty much stock except
for the pedals and saddle and it hasn't fallen apart...Yet. It's
required some runing maintenance and the rim's beginning to rust after
going through too many puddles/mud/snow. I'm planning on just riding it
hard-ish 'til the rim gives up then investing in an airfoil once the
stock one's kaput.

I ride with 150's which I find to be alright for just about everything.
But then I live in a pretty hilly area.

I love the feeling of off-road cokering. The long turns and planning
your lines well in advance reminds me of snowboarding. One of the most
satisfying rides I've ever had was around Macclesfield Forest in the
middle of a snowstorm. My dad was with me on a bike. He was having big
trouble with the snow; every time he tried to turn he'd skid but the
coker was pretty much unaffected. I had to keep stopping and waiting
for him to catch up.

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aspenmike

May 12th 06, 03:44 AM

tommillermn wrote:
> I'm fishing for advice on how best to deal with the terrain in the high
> mountains of Colorado on my Coker. I dropped $65 to register for the
> Iron Horse this year and have been getting in tons of bike, mtb, muni,
> and Coker miles over the past few months and fitness-wise I'll be as
> ready as I'm going to be. I wanted to know from those who swim with
> the two-wheelers what I need to know about dealing with cyclists coming
> up behind me on the descents, coping with lllloooonnnngggg, steep
> stretches of road (up and down), and anything you've learned the hard
> way so I don't have to.
> My Coker has a caliper brake that I can fit with either a brake
> lever or thumbshifter and I'm even considering riding about half the
> ride on a 29er for the better climbing gear and slower speed for the
> steep descents. Thanks to all for your advice.
> Tom Miller
> Kokopelli Bike and Board
> Cortez, CO

Tom, I have signed up for one more go at the IHBC, and my nephew is
coming as well. We will ride the emotional/physical/spiritual train
together. As far as cyclists coming from behind you on descents: most
of them will be gone by the time we get to those. But for the few that
we pass and then pass us, just stay right. The long ups and downs, well
just hang in there, they will always end. That, and there is nothing
wrong with stopping, god knows I'll be stopping a bunch. Your hardcore,
it is no different than any long endurance event you've done before.
As far as brakes, I don't use em, so I can't help you out there. The
IHBC is a classic COKER ride, no need to bring the 29er, IHMO.
If you have any other questions, PM me. Looking forward to having
company spinnin down main street in Silverton after a EPIC day in the
saddle.

tomblackwood wrote:
> I did a quick search and found this thread on last year's event. Mike
> did a super-detailed write-up of his ride experience last year.

Tom, thanks for bringing up the old thread! It sure had me thinking
about that day when I was reading it. What a day it was. There should
be at least three or four of us that make it to Silverton this year,
with any luck:p

--
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nathan

May 12th 06, 04:29 PM

Tom, I think you'll have a great time in that race. I've raced against
bikes on similar terrain (although not at that altitude) many times and
it is a blast. In order to get comfortable climbing or descending for a
long time, you have to be super relaxed and efficient. So that means
lots of training. For the Alps tour last summer, I trained hard (1-2
big rides every weekend, commuting 3-5 days/week, plus a mid-week
longish ride) for a couple of months. It only works if you consider the
training a fun activity in itself. In the Alps, we considered a 1000m
climb or descent just a part of a day's ride - no big deal. In Laos, we
had a day with 1800m of climbing - the stronger riders felt fine the
next day (good thing too since it had 1000m of up and 2000m of down!)
If you look at the huge rides Aspenmike has done in CO...it's amazing
what can be done with fitness and mental training.

Make sure your brake works perfectly, smooth and silent for those long
descents. The biggest in the Alps was 2350m in a day - no problem with
the brake. For a distance ride like that don't consider anything other
than a 36" wheel. You will have to decide on the best crank length for
you - sounds like 150mm might be right for that ride.

I've driven the route of the race and have always wanted to take that
train too. That is SUCH a beautiful area. Have a fantastic time and
enjoy your training.

---Nathan

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nathan
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