noisy wheel

[TimC]

Hello people much more mechanically gifted than myself -- solve a
problem for me :)

Tonight, a few residents here would have heard my back wheel. Makes a
frickin racket, has been doing so for a few days. Sounds kinda like a
louder version of the ratchet of a free-wheeling wheel, but the rate
doesn't change depending on whether I am pedaling or not -- happens
whether I am pedaling or not, so is not the derailleur (despite it
being fscked anyway), and not presumably the ratcheting mechanism,
because the ratchet isn't rotating relative to the rest of the hub when I am pedalling.

Happens only when weight is on the wheel, and only usually above
30km/h or so (ie, I can hand-pedal the bike upsidedown at far faster
than that, and can't hear a thing -- makes debugging really
interesting, I tells ya!).

I can be pedalling along, going gradually faster, then around
30-35km/h, it starts making the rathetting kinda noise, gradually,
until the speed picks up. Slow down gradually, and it keeps making a
noise, until perhaps I hit a little bump, then it'll stop suddenly.

Cones perhaps a little tight -- could it have pitted a bearing?
Perhaps a ratchet pawly thingy has come loose, and is stuck relative
to ground, rubbing up against the rest of the mechanism somehow? I
think I've not ridden it for a couple of weeks, and the last few times
I probably rode it in the rain given the weather of late. More (or
less?) grease needed?

Does this kind of thing sound like I need an entire new hub, or can it
be serviced? It's only new, probably only got about 1000km on it.

--
TimC
You can't tuna fish, but you can put tuna on a piano.

[Random Data]

On Tue, 16 May 2006 11:54:20 +0000, TimC wrote:

> Happens only when weight is on the wheel, and only usually above
> 30km/h or so

That sounds a little odd. Hmmm. How are the spokes. Give them a waggle. A
bust spoke head can do odd things, and mightn't be noisy all the time.

Could be odd little things in the hub as you suggest. Pull the cones and
have a look, give the freehub a spin, see if there's anything obvious.
That'll also let you see if it's a broken axle, which can have all sorts
of weird symptoms. In fact, pull the wheel out, take the QR out, and give
the axle ends a wiggle. If they move you've at least got a fair idea where
the problem is. Riding the bike to fix said problem afterward will be
tricky, but you can kill your knees^W^W^Wride the fixie.

Have you got easy access to another back wheel, just to make sure it's not
weird sound transmission from something else that's about to go ping in a
an interesting manner?

> Does this kind of thing sound like I need an entire new hub, or can it
> be serviced? It's only new, probably only got about 1000km on it.

Depends on what your hubs are, and what the problem is. Axles and cones
are cheap and easy for Shimano, freehubs aren't obscene, spokes are a
piece of ****, fractured flanges mean the bin is imminent, and cracked
dropouts from excessive bandicooting mean a call to Gripsport.

--
Dave Hughes |
Random miscellany, as opposed to that other kind of miscellany
- Patrick Shaughnessy

[Gags]

"TimC" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Does this kind of thing sound like I need an entire new hub, or can it
> be serviced? It's only new, probably only got about 1000km on it.
>

If you have done 1000km with a fair amount of riding in the rain then I
would suggest that you take the hub apart and check the bearings. I
generally repack bearings any time that I am caught out in serious wet
weather for any period of time.......this is why I have a SS mtb for riding
in the wet as I am not so worried about the hubs on it......I pack them with
stacks of grease at the start of winter and make sure that the rubber seals
are good and they see me out for the wet weather that comes with Melb
winters. I did make a special effort once last year after a big downpour
when I ended up riding through water up to the top tube....was a long night
in the shed that night to repack hubs, grease BB, repack headset, etc....you
shoulda seen all the water that came out of the frame when I took the BB
out!!!

Gags

[Donga]

Check that some joker didn't put spokey dokeys on it.

[DaveB]

Random Data wrote:
> On Tue, 16 May 2006 11:54:20 +0000, TimC wrote:
>
>
>>Happens only when weight is on the wheel, and only usually above
>>30km/h or so
>
>
> That sounds a little odd. Hmmm. How are the spokes. Give them a waggle. A
> bust spoke head can do odd things, and mightn't be noisy all the time.
>

Yep I was thinking spokes. I had something similar a couple of weeks
ago. Noise from the rear wheel only happened when I was riding. When I
stopped and spun the wheel no noise. Checked out the spokes at home and
discovered one had come completely loose. Not sure how that happened but
retensioned it and has been fine ever since.

DaveB

[TimC]

On 2006-05-16, DaveB (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> Random Data wrote:
>> On Tue, 16 May 2006 11:54:20 +0000, TimC wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Happens only when weight is on the wheel, and only usually above
>>>30km/h or so
>>
>> That sounds a little odd. Hmmm. How are the spokes. Give them a waggle. A
>> bust spoke head can do odd things, and mightn't be noisy all the time.
>
> Yep I was thinking spokes. I had something similar a couple of weeks
> ago. Noise from the rear wheel only happened when I was riding. When I
> stopped and spun the wheel no noise. Checked out the spokes at home and
> discovered one had come completely loose. Not sure how that happened but
> retensioned it and has been fine ever since.

I checked the tension on all of them, and they are fine, and the wheel
is true. I found one spoke which is unwound a few more turns than the
rest of them, but the corresponding part of the rim is straight.

I didn't check for fractures in spokes or anomalies at the hub. Shall
take a closer look sometime...

--
TimC
I am not a number. I'm a Free NaN. -- Chris Reuter in ARK

[MikeyOz]

my money is on the cones/bearings, my old Monza had a sora hub and I
remember when it was on the way out, very similar sounds/circumstances
to the noises you are getting.

when the LBS pulled it apart all the bearings instead of round, were
starting to look more like the earth, flat at the poles instead of
being spherical, it had been out in a lot of water as well.

was a pretty funky noise it was making, I remember riding very early 1
morning through some back streets and it started up, I thought I was
going to get stuff thrown at me.


--
MikeyOz

[Vincent Patrick]

TimC wrote:

> On 2006-05-16, DaveB (aka Bruce)
> was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
>> Random Data wrote:
>>> On Tue, 16 May 2006 11:54:20 +0000, TimC wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Happens only when weight is on the wheel, and only usually above
>>>>30km/h or so
>>>
>>> That sounds a little odd. Hmmm. How are the spokes. Give them a waggle.
>>> A bust spoke head can do odd things, and mightn't be noisy all the time.
>>
>> Yep I was thinking spokes. I had something similar a couple of weeks
>> ago. Noise from the rear wheel only happened when I was riding. When I
>> stopped and spun the wheel no noise. Checked out the spokes at home and
>> discovered one had come completely loose. Not sure how that happened but
>> retensioned it and has been fine ever since.
>
> I checked the tension on all of them, and they are fine, and the wheel
> is true. I found one spoke which is unwound a few more turns than the
> rest of them, but the corresponding part of the rim is straight.
>
> I didn't check for fractures in spokes or anomalies at the hub. Shall
> take a closer look sometime...
>

I know this sounds dumb, but something similar happened to me and it turned
out to be some dirt between the chain and plastic spoke protector. The
noise was particularly noticeable when quietly freewheeling, but also
happened during pedalling. I repacked the hub before working out that
cleaning the chain and sliding a bit of paper next to the plastic protector
to remove grit was the answer. :-(

On the other hand, your noise is probably something more real.

Cheers,

Vince

[TimC]

On 2006-05-17, Vincent Patrick (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> TimC wrote:
>> I didn't check for fractures in spokes or anomalies at the hub. Shall
>> take a closer look sometime...
>>
>
> I know this sounds dumb, but something similar happened to me and it turned
> out to be some dirt between the chain and plastic spoke protector. The
> noise was particularly noticeable when quietly freewheeling, but also
> happened during pedalling. I repacked the hub before working out that
> cleaning the chain and sliding a bit of paper next to the plastic protector
> to remove grit was the answer. :-(

Thanks for the tip. :) The chain needs a bit of a clean.


I guess I'm gong to have to work out how to repack hubs soon too. Is
regular old "synthetic grease with teflon" OK for this?

--
TimC
SIGTHTBABW: a signal sent from Unix to its programmers at random
intervals to make them remember that There Has To Be A Better Way.

[Bean Long]

Vincent Patrick wrote:

> I know this sounds dumb, but something similar happened to me and it turned
> out to be some dirt between the chain and plastic spoke protector.

Interesting point. It's exactly this reason my LBS removes the plastic
thingy when you drop the bike in for a major service or complain of
wheel noise. It's the easy way to eliminate a potential problem.


--
Bean

Remove "yourfinger" before replying

[Tamyka Bell]

Bean Long wrote:
>
> Vincent Patrick wrote:
>
> > I know this sounds dumb, but something similar happened to me and it turned
> > out to be some dirt between the chain and plastic spoke protector.
>
> Interesting point. It's exactly this reason my LBS removes the plastic
> thingy when you drop the bike in for a major service or complain of
> wheel noise. It's the easy way to eliminate a potential problem.

I've been meaning to remove mine for ages. But then during an adventure
race, I shifted, not realising how far out my indexing was, and threw
the chain into the spoke protector. Gee I'm glad it was still there.

Tam

[Karen Gallagher]

TimC wrote:
> On 2006-05-16, DaveB (aka Bruce)
> was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
>> Random Data wrote:
>>> On Tue, 16 May 2006 11:54:20 +0000, TimC wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Happens only when weight is on the wheel, and only usually above
>>>> 30km/h or so
>>>
>>> That sounds a little odd. Hmmm. How are the spokes. Give them a
>>> waggle. A bust spoke head can do odd things, and mightn't be noisy
>>> all the time.
>>
>> Yep I was thinking spokes. I had something similar a couple of weeks
>> ago. Noise from the rear wheel only happened when I was riding. When
>> I stopped and spun the wheel no noise. Checked out the spokes at
>> home and discovered one had come completely loose. Not sure how that
>> happened but retensioned it and has been fine ever since.
>
> I checked the tension on all of them, and they are fine, and the wheel
> is true. I found one spoke which is unwound a few more turns than the
> rest of them, but the corresponding part of the rim is straight.
>
> I didn't check for fractures in spokes or anomalies at the hub. Shall
> take a closer look sometime...

A friend of mine had a similar noise after changing the front wheel for
another - the bearings were very slightly off centre & the brake disk was
just scraping the casting. A .020" shim got it trued till we got near some
cone spanners.

Karen

--
"I'd far rather be happy than right any day."
- Slartibartfast

[Random Data]

On Wed, 17 May 2006 01:39:00 +0000, TimC wrote:

> I guess I'm gong to have to work out how to repack hubs soon too. Is
> regular old "synthetic grease with teflon" OK for this?

Is that the Castrol $5 from Kmart type?

For metal on metal stuff, like cones, headsets and BBs that's fine. It can
be a bit iffy on things with elastomers, since those sometimes have bad
reactions to petrochemicals. OTOH I don't think there are many elastomers
on an OCR3, so you should be fine.

I've got a big tub of boating grease from K-mart. It's a touch thicker,
and I tend to liberally coat things that don't get inspected often (BBs,
axles, etc.)so that if water does get in it shouldn't be sitting on the
metal and causing corrosion.

--
Dave Hughes |
Random miscellany, as opposed to that other kind of miscellany
- Patrick Shaughnessy

[TimC]

On 2006-05-17, Random Data (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> On Wed, 17 May 2006 01:39:00 +0000, TimC wrote:
>
>> I guess I'm gong to have to work out how to repack hubs soon too. Is
>> regular old "synthetic grease with teflon" OK for this?
>
> Is that the Castrol $5 from Kmart type?

$11 from Goldcross.

Don't recall what brand. Finishline is the other tube I have lying
around. Because naturally, one goes out and buys expensive grease,
then one forgets one went out and bought expensive grease, so go buys
another, gets home, and finds newly bought expensive grease in tube on
floor.

--
TimC
Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.
-- Hamilcar Barca in comp.os.linux.advocacy

[TimC]

On 2006-05-17, TimC (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> Thanks for the tip. :) The chain needs a bit of a clean.
>
>
> I guess I'm gong to have to work out how to repack hubs soon too. Is
> regular old "synthetic grease with teflon" OK for this?

Yep, it's a bad idea to do this at work and not at home :)

I've read http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/hubs.html, and there's
no way I can be that immaculate here at work. But at home, cat fur is
going to get everywhere, isn't it?


Anyway, is it possible for a wheel to come without a dust cap on the
freewheel side? My old car-damaged wheel (which I practiced pulling
apart first) has one on both sides, and this wheel had one on one side
-- the grease on that side was immaculate, and the grease on the
freewheel side was looking disgusting. Don't know whether I just
dropped and lost the dustcap now or not, though.

--
TimC
"COGITO, EGGO SUM." I think, therefore I am a waffle.
.sig of Mr. Ska on Slashdot.org

[Random Data]

On Wed, 17 May 2006 11:04:10 +0000, TimC wrote:

> Anyway, is it possible for a wheel to come without a dust cap on the
> freewheel side?

'04 OCR3, with Formula hubs? Yep, good chance it's the annoying half cone
half cartridge style. Hang about <shuffles out to box o bits and pulls
apart hub>

On the one I think is a Formula [1] , the drive side has no dust cover. The
NDS has a conical section that looks like it should be part of the hub
shell, but is in fact a screw on cover for the locknut underneath it. It
should come off with just finger pressure, but I had to Dremel some flats
into mine to get the bloody thing off [2]

Anyway, if you can get that off you'll see a locknut retaining a cartridge
bearing. On the other side is a traditional cone. This seems a silly thing
to do to bearings, but snuh. Anyway, I'd suggest waiting till you get home
before you do anything more. Cat hair is preferable to random taxi
leavings.

[1] no name on it, but it matches descriptions I've seen. Mine's the MTB
version, but I don't think they'd be changing much in the overall
design.
[2] The things you'll do to old bits to see how they work.

--
Dave Hughes |
Love wouldn't be blind if the braille wasn't so damned much fun.
- Armistead Maupin

[TimC]

On 2006-05-16, Donga (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> Check that some joker didn't put spokey dokeys on it.

Damn, that's what it was!


I better go home at some point in time, and actually see if any of my
fiddling did anything (probably making it worse -- but at least then I
know what the problem is!).

OK, so using degreaser on the bearings -- you must be careful not to
get it into the freehub. Does this mean you have to go here:
http://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html follow the "Body Transplantation"
instructions to remove the body, before you can get into the bearings
and cone and shell? Do the bearings actually sit in the inside of the
body, so I can't effectively clean them?

Neither http://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html or
http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=105 tell me how the
heck to deal with the drive side. Even the photos manage to look at
the non-drive side!

--
TimC
bash awk grep perl sed df du, du-du du-du,
vi troff su fsck rm * halt LART LART LART!
-- the Swedish BOFH

[Random Data]

On Wed, 17 May 2006 14:22:24 +0000, TimC wrote:

> OK, so using degreaser on the bearings -- you must be careful not to
> get it into the freehub. Does this mean you have to go here:
> http://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html follow the "Body Transplantation"
> instructions to remove the body, before you can get into the bearings
> and cone and shell?

You shouldn't need to. You may need to remove the cassette just to get
some clearance, but if you're careful you can do a bearing service without
pulling the freehub body. OTOH while you've got the axle out it's a 30
second job with a 10mm allen key to pull the freehub and clean the crap
out from behind it, and it does make cleaning a touch easier.

For a lot of hubs, it's easiest to work from the NDS since you don't have
a sodding great freehub in the way.
1. Pull the NDS dust cover off and then undo the locknut and cone. I
normally take them right off at this stage.
2. Pull the axle out and then catch the loose bearings.
3. Optionally pull the freehub off.
4. Using degreaser, flush out the inside of the hub body. Catch the rest
of the bearings.
5. Inspect for damage
6. Check DS cone/locknut are tight.
7. Gobs of grease into hub.
8. Replace drive side bearings, insert axle far enough they can't fall
out, but you can get NDS bearings in.
9. Replace NDS bearings.
10. Fully insert axle, check all bearings are seated.
11. Replace NDS cone and locknut.
12. Adjust tension, check, rinse and repeat.

Getting the tension right is fiddly, and takes practice. About the best
I can offer is that you get quicker as you repeat it, but it's one of
those feel jobs that you pretty much have to get wrong a few times.

I tend to get the tension right, put about 1/8 turn more onto the cone,
then lock the DS locknut with a random spanner (if possible), hand tighten
the NDS locknut, then back the cone out to lock on the locknut (holding
the NDS locknut). Easiest way to do this is put wheel on ground holding
DS spanner with legs or a vise, then use two hands on locknut and cone
cone spanners.

> Do the bearings actually sit in the inside of the body, so I can't effectively
> clean them?

Kind of. They should sit just inside the end of the freehub body. This was
one of the best things Shimano (I'm fairly sure they came up with the
idea, or at least were first to market in a big way) ever did -
previously the bearings were at the edges of the main hub with the
freewheel screwed on. This meant you had a big unsupported span of axle,
which was relatively easy to break. Shimano made the DS side of the hub
bigger and used a large hollow bolt to rigidly attach the freehub body.
This meant you had a wider solid structure, and you could put the DS
bearings right near the end of the axle.

You can clean this section, but you need to be careful. I tend to use a
rag and wipe clean, then spray degreaser onto the rag and repeat. It
doesn't have to be totally spotless, just free of the worst of the gunk.
More will get in, and if you get it 99% clean then the grease will
protect the bearings.

Happy to give further advice off group if you need it.
--
Dave Hughes |
I have an asteroid named after me. Isaac Asimov's got one too. It's
smaller and more eccentric. - Arthur C. Clarke