Another bike Myth - for the DutchFiles

[Aeek]

Flashing tail lights make it hard to judge the cyclists speed.

That my speed ranges from 10 to 60kmh for my daily commute.
That slight changes in gradient make a big difference in my speed.
That I am significantly faster than some, and slower than others.
That the speed limit is rarely a factor.

Its the variability of cyclists speeds plus peoples tendency to assume
that makes it hard to judge.

The flashing tail light simply warns them its a cyclist and thus the
speed may be hard to judge.

Andre

[Friday]

Aeek wrote:
> Flashing tail lights make it hard to judge the cyclists speed.
>
> That my speed ranges from 10 to 60kmh for my daily commute.
> That slight changes in gradient make a big difference in my speed.
> That I am significantly faster than some, and slower than others.
> That the speed limit is rarely a factor.
>
> Its the variability of cyclists speeds plus peoples tendency to assume
> that makes it hard to judge.
>
> The flashing tail light simply warns them its a cyclist and thus the
> speed may be hard to judge.
>
> Andre

So what do you suggest, that we connect the tail light to the speedo so
the flash rate is proportional to the speed? Does it make any difference
if a car driver knows how fast you're going?

[Michael Warner]

On Fri, 19 May 2006 21:31:29 +1000, Aeek wrote:


> The flashing tail light simply warns them its a cyclist and thus the
> speed may be hard to judge.

Drivers should rely on the Doppler spectral shift to determine your
speed.

--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw

[Vincent Patrick]

Friday wrote:

> Aeek wrote:
>> Flashing tail lights make it hard to judge the cyclists speed.
>>
>> That my speed ranges from 10 to 60kmh for my daily commute.
>> That slight changes in gradient make a big difference in my speed.
>> That I am significantly faster than some, and slower than others.
>> That the speed limit is rarely a factor.
>>
>> Its the variability of cyclists speeds plus peoples tendency to assume
>> that makes it hard to judge.
>>
>> The flashing tail light simply warns them its a cyclist and thus the
>> speed may be hard to judge.
>>
>> Andre
>
> So what do you suggest, that we connect the tail light to the speedo so
> the flash rate is proportional to the speed? Does it make any difference
> if a car driver knows how fast you're going?

It might do under special circumstances.

For example, I have been cut off by cars turning left when barely in front
of me, so I have had to brake to avoid an accident. Presumably they
thought that I was travelling slowly enough that they could do the
manoeuvre with safety. This has happen during the day, too, so it was not
flashing lights that caused the car driver to misjudge a cyclist's speed.

In another example, I have had a 4WD turn right into my path, again
presumably because the driver underestimated my speed.

Cheers,

Vince

[Gemma_k]

"Aeek" > wrote in message
...
> Flashing tail lights make it hard to judge the cyclists speed.

There's actually quite a bit of research around on the effect of flashing
lights and how that affects others' abilities to judge speed. Not a myth.
Most papers think a flashing light is better than a wheel reflector :-)
http://www.uctc.net/papers/667.pdf

Gemm

[flyingdutch]

So, If I'm stationery, the lights would be... off!

as long as there's an awareness i care not much more...


--
flyingdutch

[Michael Warner]

On Sat, 20 May 2006 19:47:55 +0930, Gemma_k wrote:

> There's actually quite a bit of research around on the effect of flashing
> lights and how that affects others' abilities to judge speed. Not a myth.
> Most papers think a flashing light is better than a wheel reflector :-)

A single point source of light directly ahead provides no visual distance
information, regardless of whether it's flashing or not.

--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw

[Meeba]

someone on the bike path the other night screamed out to me to be "kind
to epileptics" l assumed he meant my flashing light!


--
Meeba

[Rory Williams]

flyingdutch Wrote:
> So, If I'm stationery, the lights would be... off!
>
> as long as there's an awareness i care not much more...

If you are stationery, someone is writing on you

RoryW


--
Rory Williams

[flyingdutch]

Meeba Wrote:
> someone on the bike path the other night screamed out to me to be "kind
> to epileptics" l assumed he meant my flashing light!

or your pokemon cartoon! :D


--
flyingdutch

[flyingdutch]

Rory Williams Wrote:
> If you are stationery, someone is writing on you
>
> RoryW

Yes, but are they reading between the lines?... ;)


--
flyingdutch

[Shabby]

flyingdutch Wrote:
> Yes, but are they reading between the lines?... ;)
My god, we're all so clever here today aren't we Mr Dutch!

That new brewery you were talking about finally served up some beers on
the weekend....


--
Shabby

[Bean Long]

Vincent Patrick wrote:
> Friday wrote:
>
>> Aeek wrote:
>>> Flashing tail lights make it hard to judge the cyclists speed.

I find that a static tail light on a bike is extremely hard to identify
even as a bike at a distance. It could be a reflector on the side of
the road for all I can tell. My preference is for the flasher as, to my
mind, it seems to indicate the bike is in motion. I find drivers have
difficulty guessing my speed night or day.


--
Bean

Remove "yourfinger" before replying

[Vincent Patrick]

Bean Long wrote:

> Vincent Patrick wrote:
>> Friday wrote:
>>
>>> Aeek wrote:
>>>> Flashing tail lights make it hard to judge the cyclists speed.
>
> I find that a static tail light on a bike is extremely hard to identify
> even as a bike at a distance. It could be a reflector on the side of
> the road for all I can tell. My preference is for the flasher as, to my
> mind, it seems to indicate the bike is in motion. I find drivers have
> difficulty guessing my speed night or day.

Absolutely. A single constant rear light can be overlooked because of its
relatively small size.

I have two flashing rear lights on my bike at night. I only have the two
lights because I recently gave away the third flashing light that I used to
wear on my backpack.

Dear doctor, am I just paranoid, or do I have an unresolved Christmas tree
complex? Would another rear flashing light help me?

Cheers,

Vince

[Treadly]

Vincent Patrick Wrote:
> Bean Long wrote:
>
> > Vincent Patrick wrote:
> >> Friday wrote:
> >>
> >>> Aeek wrote:
> >>>> Flashing tail lights make it hard to judge the cyclists speed.
> >
> > I find that a static tail light on a bike is extremely hard to
> identify
> > even as a bike at a distance. It could be a reflector on the side
> of
> > the road for all I can tell. My preference is for the flasher as,
> to my
> > mind, it seems to indicate the bike is in motion. I find drivers
> have
> > difficulty guessing my speed night or day.
>
> Absolutely. A single constant rear light can be overlooked because
> of its
> relatively small size.
>
> I have two flashing rear lights on my bike at night. I only have the
> two
> lights because I recently gave away the third flashing light that I
> used to
> wear on my backpack.
>
> Dear doctor, am I just paranoid, or do I have an unresolved Christmas
> tree
> complex? Would another rear flashing light help me?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Vince I have a modified flasher with blue LEDs. Along with my flashing red
light it slows down traffic quite nicely.


--
Treadly

[Vincent Patrick]

Treadly wrote:

> I have a modified flasher with blue LEDs. Along with my flashing
> red light it slows down traffic quite nicely.

++ for creativity.

No doubt some authorities would not be impressed if the blue blinkers were
attached to the cycle itself, but I suppose there is no law against wearing
different coloured lights on your person. Is there?

Cheers,

Vince

[Bean Long]

Michael Warner wrote:
> On Fri, 19 May 2006 21:31:29 +1000, Aeek wrote:
>
>
>> The flashing tail light simply warns them its a cyclist and thus the
>> speed may be hard to judge.
>
> Drivers should rely on the Doppler spectral shift to determine your
> speed.
>
That's why people have commented on my BLUE flashing light. Relatively
speaking I'm moving toward them at a very high speed. I need to work on
my pace a little!

--
Bean

Remove "yourfinger" before replying

[tony f]

"Treadly" > wrote in message
...
>
> Vincent Patrick Wrote:
>> Treadly wrote:
>>
>> > I have a modified flasher with blue LEDs. Along with my flashing
>> > red light it slows down traffic quite nicely.
>>
>> ++ for creativity.
>>
>> No doubt some authorities would not be impressed if the blue blinkers
>> were
>> attached to the cycle itself, but I suppose there is no law against
>> wearing
>> different coloured lights on your person. Is there?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Vince
> There is no law against having a blue light, but you MUST have a red
> one.

In NSW, the cops told me I wasn't allowed to have a blue flashing light - at
least not in combination wit my red flashing light, because flashing blue
and red are reserved for emergency services. I didn't ask what law this came
under. I didn't get booked either - in fact, they admired it (the younger
one thought it was fantastic!), but told me not to keep using it. They also
wanted to know where I bought it (Jaycar) because apparently hoons were
using them to impersonate coppers. No, not bike hoons, car hoons!

Pity, because I have NEVER had such an effective visibility device (although
my green LED strip (steady) comes close - more on a WTF is that basis, I
think).

Tony F

[Zebee Johnstone]

In aus.bicycle on Tue, 23 May 2006 06:01:54 GMT
tony f > wrote:
> In NSW, the cops told me I wasn't allowed to have a blue flashing light - at
> least not in combination wit my red flashing light, because flashing blue
> and red are reserved for emergency services. I didn't ask what law this came

via austlii.edu.au
==================

ROAD TRANSPORT (VEHICLE REGISTRATION) REGULATION 1998 - SCHEDULE 4
SCHEDULE 4 – Vehicle standards

Part 5 - Lights and reflectors
81 Lighting devices that can be attached to vehicles

A device capable of projecting <<light>> must not be attached to any
vehicle unless it is a device required or permitted to be attached to
the vehicle by this Schedule.


Division 19 - Other lights, reflectors, <<rear>> marking plates or
signals
123 Other lights and reflectors

(1) A vehicle may be fitted with any <<light>> or reflector not
mentioned in this Schedule.

(2) However, unless subclause (3), (4) or (5) applies [exempting
emergency vehicles, towtrucks and a few others- ZJ, a vehicle
must not display:

(a) a <<light>> that flashes or rotates, or

(b) a <<light or reflector that:

(i) shows a red light>> to the front, or

(ii) shows a white <<light to the rear>>, or

(iii) is shaped or located in a way that reduces the
effectiveness of a <<light>> or reflector that is required to be
fitted to the vehicle under this Schedule, or

(iv) shows a <<blue light>>.

=============

so show a green or purple one, no worries :)

Zebee

[Treadly]

Zebee Johnstone Wrote:
> In aus.bicycle on Tue, 23 May 2006 06:01:54 GMT
> tony f > wrote:
> > In NSW, the cops told me I wasn't allowed to have a blue flashing
> light - at
> > least not in combination wit my red flashing light, because
> flashing blue
> > and red are reserved for emergency services. I didn't ask what law
> this came
>
> via austlii.edu.au
> ==================
>
> ROAD TRANSPORT (VEHICLE REGISTRATION) REGULATION 1998 - SCHEDULE 4
> SCHEDULE 4 – Vehicle standards
>
> Part 5 - Lights and reflectors
> 81 Lighting devices that can be attached to vehicles
>
> A device capable of projecting <<light>> must not be attached to any
> vehicle unless it is a device required or permitted to be attached to
> the vehicle by this Schedule.
>
>
> Division 19 - Other lights, reflectors, <<rear>> marking plates or
> signals
> 123 Other lights and reflectors
>
> (1) A vehicle may be fitted with any <<light>> or reflector not
> mentioned in this Schedule.
>
> (2) However, unless subclause (3), (4) or (5) applies [exempting
> emergency vehicles, towtrucks and a few others- ZJ, a vehicle
> must not display:
>
> (a) a <<light>> that flashes or rotates, or
>
> (b) a <<light or reflector that:
>
> (i) shows a red light>> to the front, or
>
> (ii) shows a white <<light to the rear>>, or
>
> (iii) is shaped or located in a way that reduces the
> effectiveness of a <<light>> or reflector that is required to be
> fitted to the vehicle under this Schedule, or
>
> (iv) shows a <<blue light>>.
>
> =============
>
> so show a green or purple one, no worries :)
>
> ZebeeObviously these laws don't apply to bikes because we all know that bikes
are allowed to use flashing lights.


--
Treadly

[Treadly]

Zebee Johnstone Wrote:
> In aus.bicycle on Tue, 23 May 2006 06:01:54 GMT
> tony f > wrote:
> > In NSW, the cops told me I wasn't allowed to have a blue flashing
> light - at
> > least not in combination wit my red flashing light, because
> flashing blue
> > and red are reserved for emergency services. I didn't ask what law
> this came
>
> via austlii.edu.au
> ==================
>
> ROAD TRANSPORT (VEHICLE REGISTRATION) REGULATION 1998 - SCHEDULE 4
> SCHEDULE 4 – Vehicle standards
>
> Part 5 - Lights and reflectors
> 81 Lighting devices that can be attached to vehicles
>
> A device capable of projecting <<light>> must not be attached to any
> vehicle unless it is a device required or permitted to be attached
> to
> the vehicle by this Schedule.
>
>
> Division 19 - Other lights, reflectors, <<rear>> marking plates or
> signals
> 123 Other lights and reflectors
>
> (1) A vehicle may be fitted with any <<light>> or reflector not
> mentioned in this Schedule.
>
> (2) However, unless subclause (3), (4) or (5) applies [exempting
> emergency vehicles, towtrucks and a few others- ZJ, a vehicle
> must not display:
>
> (a) a <<light>> that flashes or rotates, or
>
> (b) a <<light or reflector that:
>
> (i) shows a red light>> to the front, or
>
> (ii) shows a white <<light to the rear>>, or
>
> (iii) is shaped or located in a way that reduces the
> effectiveness of a <<light>> or reflector that is required to be
> fitted to the vehicle under this Schedule, or
>
> (iv) shows a <<blue light>>.
>
> =============
>
> so show a green or purple one, no worries :)
>
> ZebeeObviously these laws don't apply to bikes because we all know that bikes
are allowed to use flashing lights.



How about this:

* NATIONAL TRANSPORT COMMISSION (ROAD TRANSPORT LEGISLATION --
AUSTRALIAN ROAD RULES) REGULATIONS 2006 - SCHEDULE 1*



259 Riding at night

The rider of a bicycle must not ride at night, or in
hazardous weather conditions causing reduced visibility, unless the
bicycle, or the rider, displays:

(a) a flashing or steady white light that is
clearly visible for at least 200 metres from the front of the bicycle;
and

(b) a flashing or steady red light that is clearly
visible for at least 200 metres from the rear of the bicycle; and

(c) a red reflector that is clearly visible for
at least 50 metres from the rear of the bicycle when light is projected
onto it by a vehicle's headlight on low-beam.

Offence provision.

-Note - *-Low-beam -*and *-night -* are defined in the
dictionary.













http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/disp.pl/au/legis/cth/consol%5freg/ntctlarrr2006947/sch1.html?query=%5e+bike+lights+blue


--
Treadly

[Vincent Patrick]

Zebee Johnstone wrote:

> In aus.bicycle on Tue, 23 May 2006 06:01:54 GMT
> tony f > wrote:
>> In NSW, the cops told me I wasn't allowed to have a blue flashing light -
>> at least not in combination wit my red flashing light, because flashing
>> blue and red are reserved for emergency services. I didn't ask what law
>> this came
>
> via austlii.edu.au
> ==================
>
> ROAD TRANSPORT (VEHICLE REGISTRATION) REGULATION 1998 - SCHEDULE 4
> SCHEDULE 4 – Vehicle standards
>
> Part 5 - Lights and reflectors
> 81 Lighting devices that can be attached to vehicles
>
> A device capable of projecting <<light>> must not be attached to any
> vehicle unless it is a device required or permitted to be attached to
> the vehicle by this Schedule.
>
>
> Division 19 - Other lights, reflectors, <<rear>> marking plates or
> signals
> 123 Other lights and reflectors
>
> (1) A vehicle may be fitted with any <<light>> or reflector not
> mentioned in this Schedule.
>
> (2) However, unless subclause (3), (4) or (5) applies [exempting
> emergency vehicles, towtrucks and a few others- ZJ, a vehicle
> must not display:
>
> (a) a <<light>> that flashes or rotates, or
>
> (b) a <<light or reflector that:
>
> (i) shows a red light>> to the front, or
>
> (ii) shows a white <<light to the rear>>, or
>
> (iii) is shaped or located in a way that reduces the
> effectiveness of a <<light>> or reflector that is required to be
> fitted to the vehicle under this Schedule, or
>
> (iv) shows a <<blue light>>.
>
> =============
>
> so show a green or purple one, no worries :)
>
> Zebee


Hmmm... flashing lights are lawful on bicycles according to some sources.
Is there some inconsistency in the regulations on that matter, or is there
an over-riding law? <yes, bad pun intended>

It also seems that there is no law against wearing a blue light, even though
attaching it to the bicycle is unlawful. (??)

It would be nice to know where cyclists stand in regard to flashing lights
and other coloured lights worn on clothing/backpacks, just in case there is
any unwanted officious approach.

Cheers,

Vince