Was Greg dirty in his day?

[Callistus Valerius]

Not being a LeMondologist, I ask the question, was Greg dirty in his
day? LeMond was before my time, and my knowledge of him consists of what
I've read in rbr. But if someone could fill in the knowledge gap.

[[email protected]]

He didn't need to be doped up...at the age of 14 he won the US junior
qualification road race decisively before he was even eligible to
compete...he had more natural talent than any other US rider including
one nut. Drugs were around then, but not like today... he kept getting
better. He was also the first rider to crack the million dollar
salary... breaking new ground for all pro riders.

Callistus Valerius wrote:
> Not being a LeMondologist, I ask the question, was Greg dirty in his
> day? LeMond was before my time, and my knowledge of him consists of what
> I've read in rbr. But if someone could fill in the knowledge gap.

[Tom Kunich]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> He didn't need to be doped up...at the age of 14 he won the US junior
> qualification road race decisively before he was even eligible to
> compete...he had more natural talent than any other US rider including
> one nut. Drugs were around then, but not like today... he kept getting
> better. He was also the first rider to crack the million dollar
> salary... breaking new ground for all pro riders.
>
> Callistus Valerius wrote:
>> Not being a LeMondologist, I ask the question, was Greg dirty in his
>> day? LeMond was before my time, and my knowledge of him consists of what
>> I've read in rbr. But if someone could fill in the knowledge gap.

Greg LeMond went from being a poor also ran in the Giro to a front runner in
the Tour de France after an "iron" shot. Sure, he had a blood disease and he
rode for a couple of years better than anyone else.

[[email protected]]

Tom Kunich wrote:
> Greg LeMond went from being a poor also ran in the Giro to a front runner in
> the Tour de France after an "iron" shot.

That someone could go from an also-ran to a contender in the space of a
month is not out of the question. Getting iron levels back up to where
they are supposed to be makes a sedentary person go from feeling like
garbage to feeling normal again. Imagine what it does for an athlete
who is being pushed very hard in a three-week stage race.

In addition, form can change quickly. Someone can be under-recovered
and undertaking a huge workload. One week easy and he feels great.

I'm not saying GL didn't dope, but it's very possible that he didn't,
and that the iron shot was really just an iron shot.

[Jack Maars]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> He didn't need to be doped up...at the age of 14 he won the US junior
> qualification road race decisively before he was even eligible to
> compete...he had more natural talent than any other US rider including
> one nut. Drugs were around then, but not like today... he kept getting
> better. He was also the first rider to crack the million dollar
> salary... breaking new ground for all pro riders.
>
> Callistus Valerius wrote:
>> Not being a LeMondologist, I ask the question, was Greg dirty in his
>> day? LeMond was before my time, and my knowledge of him consists of what
>> I've read in rbr. But if someone could fill in the knowledge gap.
>

Look, back in the good ol '80s there was nothing wrong with
using Amphetamines.

It was fine when Cyrille Guimard put Greg on a program of
Darbepoetin / Stanozolol / Methamphetamine when he started
riding for the Renault-Elf-Gitane team.

Laurent Figon is the one to point fingers at. I really don't know
why people aren't talking about him anymore, what's with that?

[Jack Maars]

"Callistus Valerius" > wrote in message
.net...
> Not being a LeMondologist, I ask the question, was Greg dirty in his
> day? LeMond was before my time, and my knowledge of him consists of what
> I've read in rbr. But if someone could fill in the knowledge gap.
>
>

Don't forget, Greg wrote THE BOOK on training.

Other than The Bible, Eddy Borysewicz's book
'Bicycle Road Racing - Complete Program for
Training and Competition' you don't need all
these fancy pancy new training books that have
Lance or that silly Chris Carmichel character
yapping about 'systems' or other silliness.

I don't like these newcomers to my sport
such as Lance and that Chris Carmichel
guy.

Anyway:
When the USCF got Borysewicz, one big improvement
he made to Greg back in '77 was to change Greg's
riding position. Eddy states Greg was pedaling
pigeon-toed and they worked to change all that.

Greg listened and did a number on the Russians and
Poles at the '80 Circuit de la Sarthe! Or have you
forgotten that?

Remember these names:
Greg LeMond
Ron Kiefel
Greg Demgen
Jeff Bradley

They won Bronze in the 1978 Junior Worlds TTT.
The very first Worlds medal for a U.S. road team.

[Kurgan Gringioni]

wrote:
> Tom Kunich wrote:
> > Greg LeMond went from being a poor also ran in the Giro to a front runner in
> > the Tour de France after an "iron" shot.
>
> That someone could go from an also-ran to a contender in the space of a
> month is not out of the question.




Dumbass -


It was a much shorter time than that. He went from laughing group to
finishing 2nd in the Giro's final day time trial.

That's what you call panache.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

[Jack Maars]

"steve" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
>
> Being the same age I raced against him some. I remember racing against
> him in the Wildwood, NJ crit in Oct 1978 and later in the Lowenbrau GP
> Central Park RR in May or June 1979. The difference in his physique was
> great. He seemed so much more muscular and my first reaction was
> ster..ds(?)
>

It was the late '70s that Eddy Borysewicz got the USCF to send Greg to
Poland for two months.

Over there Greg was worked on by the same system that brought two
weightlifting gold medals to Waldemar Baszanowski in the light weight
division.

[[email protected]]

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> wrote:
> > Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > Greg LeMond went from being a poor also ran in the Giro to a front runner in
> > > the Tour de France after an "iron" shot.
> >
> > That someone could go from an also-ran to a contender in the space of a
> > month is not out of the question.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> It was a much shorter time than that. He went from laughing group to
> finishing 2nd in the Giro's final day time trial.
>
> That's what you call panache.

Dumbass,

Greg Lemond didn't need to ride with Panache. He rode
with Finite Element Analysis. That is more powerful than
any of your Masters Fattie Dope.


That's why LANCE had to spend so much time in the
wind tunnel. He didn't have GREG's computational skills.

Ben
Six months in the lab can easily save
three hours in the library.

[Frank Drackman]

"Jack Maars" > wrote in message
news:EN1pg.110963$IK3.54798@pd7tw1no...
>
> "Callistus Valerius" > wrote in message
>>
> Anyway:
> When the USCF got Borysewicz, one big improvement
> he made to Greg back in '77 was to change Greg's
> riding position. Eddy states Greg was pedaling
> pigeon-toed and they worked to change all that.
>
> Greg listened and did a number on the Russians and
> Poles at the '80 Circuit de la Sarthe! Or have you
> forgotten that?


How silly of me, of course as soon as Greg stopped pedaling with pigeon toes
he became the true champion that was hidden inside him.

[Donald Munro]

Frank Drackman wrote:
> How silly of me, of course as soon as Greg stopped pedaling with pigeon toes
> he became the true champion that was hidden inside him.

Its breeding season for red herrings ?

[Mike]

On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 03:09:15 GMT, "Callistus Valerius"
> wrote:

> Not being a LeMondologist, I ask the question, was Greg dirty in his
>day? LeMond was before my time, and my knowledge of him consists of what
>I've read in rbr. But if someone could fill in the knowledge gap.

Do bears sh*t in the woods?



--

[Jonathan v.d. Sluis]

"Kurgan Gringioni" > wrote in
ups.com:

>
> wrote:
>> Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > Greg LeMond went from being a poor also ran in the Giro to a front
>> > runner in the Tour de France after an "iron" shot.
>>
>> That someone could go from an also-ran to a contender in the space of
>> a month is not out of the question.
>
>
>
>
> Dumbass -
>
>
> It was a much shorter time than that. He went from laughing group to
> finishing 2nd in the Giro's final day time trial.
>
> That's what you call panache.
>
>
> thanks,
>
> K. Gringioni.
>

So you think that doping use can be derived from results?

[Callistus Valerius]

> > Not being a LeMondologist, I ask the question, was Greg dirty in his
> >day? LeMond was before my time, and my knowledge of him consists of what
> >I've read in rbr. But if someone could fill in the knowledge gap.
>
> Do bears sh*t in the woods?
>
>
Your answer was the clearest. thanks.

[Curtis L. Russell]

On 29 Jun 2006 20:47:43 -0700, wrote:

>That someone could go from an also-ran to a contender in the space of a
>month is not out of the question. Getting iron levels back up to where
>they are supposed to be makes a sedentary person go from feeling like
>garbage to feeling normal again.

Hell, there was a female asthmatic racer that would have a bad lap and
recover and ride off the front - Betsy somethingorother. I don't
particularly like Lemond, but my first reaction would be that he was
clean for the most part - other than the famous diarrhea stage.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

[Curtis L. Russell]

On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 04:30:28 GMT, "Jack Maars" >
wrote:

>I don't like these newcomers to my sport
>such as Lance and that Chris Carmichel
>guy.

Then I can sell you the blue CONI manual from the, what, the 1960s?
Required reading, sort of, a long time ago. Still sitting on a shelf
somewhere, near all those English picture books of the Tours and the
Classics.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

[Mark Fennell]

ergoid wrote:
> He didn't need to be doped up...at the age of 14 he won the US junior
> qualification road race decisively before he was even eligible to
> compete...he had more natural talent than any other US rider including
> one nut. Drugs were around then, but not like today... he kept getting
> better.

That basically sums up my opinion also, particularly wrt natural talent. But
one detail is wrong... at the 1977 jr worlds trials, he won two of the three
road races and he was almost 16 (not 14). But you are correct that they only
took 17 and 18 year olds.

The following year the trials were in CO and consisted of a TT, a TTT, a RR,
and a crit. Ironically, that year LeMond only won the crit but he definitely
was going to be on the team no matter how he did at the trials.

> Callistus Valerius wrote:
>> Not being a LeMondologist, I ask the question, was Greg dirty in his
>> day?

No, at least not by today's standards.

[Mark Fennell]

steve wrote:
> Being the same age I raced against him some. I remember racing against
> him in the Wildwood, NJ crit in Oct 1978 and later in the Lowenbrau GP
> Central Park RR in May or June 1979. The difference in his physique was
> great. He seemed so much more muscular and my first reaction was
> ster..ds(?)

I don't believe that. He didn't change physically any more than you would
expect of a teenager.

[Alex Rodriguez]

In article >,
says...
>
>
> Not being a LeMondologist, I ask the question, was Greg dirty in his
>day? LeMond was before my time, and my knowledge of him consists of what
>I've read in rbr. But if someone could fill in the knowledge gap.

That would be information that only Lemond and his doc would have access
to. I'm pretty sure neither reads this newsgroup, so all the answers you
will get will be pretty worthless.
-----------
Alex

[Alex Rodriguez]

In article om>,
says...

>> That's what you call panache.

Is panache on the banned list?
-------------
Alex

[Ernst Blofeld]

Tom Kunich wrote:
> Greg LeMond went from being a poor also ran in the Giro to a front runner in
> the Tour de France after an "iron" shot. Sure, he had a blood disease and he
> rode for a couple of years better than anyone else.

EPO only became available in 1989, so it is highly unlikley that he was
on it in that Giro. I don't think anything else would have dramatic
effects
of that nature; amphetamenes would light up all the **** tests and
roids
wouldn't have that sort of effect on riding.

I suspect he was clean. He was a massive talent, better than
his three tour wins show. There are plenty of stories about unreal
things
he did as a teenage rider. He was riding the Red Zinger as a junior
and finishing in the top ten. (Was he limited to junior gearing in
that race?)

[Jack Maars]

"Curtis L. Russell" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 04:30:28 GMT, "Jack Maars" >
> wrote:
>
>>I don't like these newcomers to my sport
>>such as Lance and that Chris Carmichel
>>guy.
>
> Then I can sell you the blue CONI manual from the, what, the 1960s?
> Required reading, sort of, a long time ago. Still sitting on a shelf
> somewhere, near all those English picture books of the Tours and the
> Classics.

The golden years.

I've pretty much pin-pointed the turning point of cycling, it was
when technology killed the sport for ever.

It was the day when the team Miko-Mercier mechanic screwed
on that damn seven cog freewheel onto the rear wheel of
Joop Zoetemelk and Sven-Ake Nilsson bikes during the 1979
Tour.

From the first seven cog freewheel things snowballed to the
point where riders are now strapping Styrofoam onto their
heads and riding those ugly plastic bikes and having radio
receivers shoved up their orifices.

Please stop blaming Greg for introducing cheesy looking
sunglasses and styrofoam helmets to the pro scene.

The villains were Miko-Mercier's Director Sportif Louis Caput
and his assistant Maurice Quintin for sneaking a 7 cog on Joop's
hub just before the '79 tour hit the climbing stages.

I'm really pleased that Demeyer won the Belfort to Evian
stage clean by keeping things real using a 6 cog freewheel.

Never forget that team TI Raleigh-McGregor's Director
Peter Post keep his guys Knetemann, Van Vliet, and
Wesemael clean that year by riding 6 cogs on the freewheel.

Who knows now, maybe Miko-Mercier did use a seven the
year before in the mountains. I will never accept the fact that
team Miko-Mercier won the 1978 TdF Overall Team
classification!

[[email protected]]

Jack Maars wrote:

> I've pretty much pin-pointed the turning point of cycling, it was
> when technology killed the sport for ever.
>
> It was the day when the team Miko-Mercier mechanic screwed
> on that damn seven cog freewheel onto the rear wheel of
> Joop Zoetemelk and Sven-Ake Nilsson bikes during the 1979
> Tour.
>
> From the first seven cog freewheel things snowballed to the
> point where riders are now strapping Styrofoam onto their
> heads and riding those ugly plastic bikes and having radio
> receivers shoved up their orifices.

Hey hey, Fabrizio Mazzoleni, welcome back.
I've been trying to figure out who your posting style
reminded me of.

> Who knows now, maybe Miko-Mercier did use a seven the
> year before in the mountains. I will never accept the fact that
> team Miko-Mercier won the 1978 TdF Overall Team
> classification!

The good news is, with Dick Pound's new Retro-Test [tm],
you don't have to! Any distasteful or unaesthetic result,
no matter how old, is subject to review and revocation!

[Kurgan Gringioni]

Jonathan v.d. Sluis wrote:
> >
> > Dumbass -
> >
> >
> > It was a much shorter time than that. He went from laughing group to
> > finishing 2nd in the Giro's final day time trial.
> >
> > That's what you call panache.
> >
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > K. Gringioni.
> >
>
> So you think that doping use can be derived from results?



Dumbass -


No.

The one who credited the "iron injection" for LemonD's miraculous
recovery was LemonD himself.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

[Jack Maars]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Jack Maars wrote:
> > Hey hey, Fabrizio Mazzoleni, welcome back.
> I've been trying to figure out who your posting style
> reminded me of.
>
How did you figure that out?
And I don't recognize your posting name.

[Donald Munro]

> wrote:
>> > Hey hey, Fabrizio Mazzoleni, welcome back.
>> I've been trying to figure out who your posting style
>> reminded me of.

Jack Maars wrote:
> How did you figure that out?
> And I don't recognize your posting name.

Perhaps you're a Fabrizio clone. Scary thought.

[need more sun]

I remember that...the story was that he was anaemic, very low iron/red
blood cell concentration. Given his talent and the fact that he was
coming back from such a tough situation, I think that is a plausable
explaination for how iron injections would have improved his level.

In fairness, guys, while I don't know Greg LeMond I do think he would
have to be remarkably stupid to be saying what he has been saying about
Armstrong had he been doping; someone would have come out of the
woodwork by now to say that Greg was also dirty. He's been brave in
speaking up, especially as Trek are involved in distributing his bikes,
so for me I think he was probably clean. He's got conviction and
courage to speak out so I'm on his side on this one. Too many guys keep
quiet, and that is part of the problem.

So bravo Greg, and Andy Hamsten, and anyone else who has voiced their
concerns...


Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> Jonathan v.d. Sluis wrote:
> > >
> > > Dumbass -
> > >
> > >
> > > It was a much shorter time than that. He went from laughing group to
> > > finishing 2nd in the Giro's final day time trial.
> > >
> > > That's what you call panache.
> > >
> > >
> > > thanks,
> > >
> > > K. Gringioni.
> > >
> >
> > So you think that doping use can be derived from results?
>
>
>
> Dumbass -
>
>
> No.
>
> The one who credited the "iron injection" for LemonD's miraculous
> recovery was LemonD himself.
>
>
> thanks,
>
> K. Gringioni.

[Les Earnest]

Ernst Blofeld wrote:
> I suspect he [Lemond] was clean. He was a massive talent, better than
> his three tour wins show. There are plenty of stories about unreal
> things
> he did as a teenage rider. He was riding the Red Zinger as a junior
> and finishing in the top ten. (Was he limited to junior gearing in
> that race?)

No -- I got that silly rule removed the year before.

At the 1978 Butterfly Criterium in Pacific Grove, California, when the
junior gear rule was still in force and I was chief referee, I noticed
that Lemond's cadence in the senior race was about the same as the other
riders, so I asked for his bike at the end to do a gear check. He
responded "Never mind, it's illegal." I therefore had to disqualify him,
but felt bad about it.

That night I drafted a rule change to end this unfair rule and got the
U.S. Cycling Federation board of directors to approve it two weeks
later. Greg and his dad wrote a supporting letter, which helped.

-Les Earnest

[Mark Fennell]

Les Earnest wrote:
> No -- I got that silly rule removed the year before.
>
> At the 1978 Butterfly Criterium in Pacific Grove, California, when the
> junior gear rule was still in force and I was chief referee, I noticed
> that Lemond's cadence in the senior race was about the same as the other
> riders, so I asked for his bike at the end to do a gear check. He
> responded "Never mind, it's illegal." I therefore had to disqualify him,
> but felt bad about it.

Oh man, memory lane...every time I drive down Lighthouse in PG I remember
those great races. And wasn't it Rory O'Reilly who won because of that DQ?
Plus the day before, GL made an amazing last-lap bridge to another Santa
Barbaran, Larry Shields, to win (?) the senior race at Laguna Seca. I know
he didn't use jr gears (93" back then) that day either since he made the
bridge on the downhill. So, getting back on topic, yes I guess he was dirty
in his day by cheating on the gear restriction.