This is the evidence?

[Steven L. Sheffield]

The allegations are as follows:

On Jan Ullrich: The surname "Jan" appears four times in document 32, where
it is linked to a list of code-named products, which are: blood, growth
hormone, IGF-I (growth factor) and testosterone.


.... So the "surname 'Jan'" couldn't refer to Xavier Jan?

[psycholist]

"Steven L. Sheffield" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> The allegations are as follows:
>
> On Jan Ullrich: The surname "Jan" appears four times in document 32, where
> it is linked to a list of code-named products, which are: blood, growth
> hormone, IGF-I (growth factor) and testosterone.
>
>
> ... So the "surname 'Jan'" couldn't refer to Xavier Jan?
>

When I read the story you snipped that from, I really hoped it was just a
really poorly-done synopsis. I didn't see much in the way of "damning
evidence" in most of the cases they detailed.

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

[[email protected]]

Steven L. Sheffield wrote:
> The allegations are as follows:
>
> On Jan Ullrich: The surname "Jan" appears four times in document 32, where
> it is linked to a list of code-named products, which are: blood, growth
> hormone, IGF-I (growth factor) and testosterone.
>
>
> ... So the "surname 'Jan'" couldn't refer to Xavier Jan?

Or more likely Jan Hruska.

[Sandy]

a écrit :
> Steven L. Sheffield wrote:
>
>> The allegations are as follows:
>>
>> On Jan Ullrich: The surname "Jan" appears four times in document 32, where
>> it is linked to a list of code-named products, which are: blood, growth
>> hormone, IGF-I (growth factor) and testosterone.
>>
>>
>> ... So the "surname 'Jan'" couldn't refer to Xavier Jan?
>>
>
> Or more likely Jan Hruska.
>
>
There you go ! Another job applicant for the Inquisition.

[Ron Ruff]

Steven L. Sheffield wrote:
> ... So the "surname 'Jan'" couldn't refer to Xavier Jan?

I can only hope they have something better than that... like a DNA
test...?

Or maybe I hope they don't... get their asses sued... make an example
of them...

[Keith]

On Sat, 01 Jul 2006 19:06:57 -0600, "Steven L. Sheffield"
> wrote:

>
>
>The allegations are as follows:
>
>On Jan Ullrich: The surname "Jan" appears four times in document 32, where
>it is linked to a list of code-named products, which are: blood, growth
>hormone, IGF-I (growth factor) and testosterone.
>
>
>... So the "surname 'Jan'" couldn't refer to Xavier Jan?

You seem to forget the SMS sent by "Rudicio" on the day of the Giro
ITT, see my other message about that

[Sandy]

Ron Ruff a écrit :
> Steven L. Sheffield wrote:
>
>> ... So the "surname 'Jan'" couldn't refer to Xavier Jan?
>>
>
> I can only hope they have something better than that... like a DNA
> test...?
>
> Or maybe I hope they don't... get their asses sued... make an example
> of them...
>
>
Just possible that the translation of "surname" from text I didn't see
should be "nickname". A false friend cognate.

[Ernst Noch]

Steven L. Sheffield wrote:
>
> The allegations are as follows:
>
> On Jan Ullrich: The surname "Jan" appears four times in document 32, where
> it is linked to a list of code-named products, which are: blood, growth
> hormone, IGF-I (growth factor) and testosterone.
>
>
> ... So the "surname 'Jan'" couldn't refer to Xavier Jan?
>
> Steven L. Sheffield schrieb:
>
> The allegations are as follows:
>
> On Jan Ullrich: The surname "Jan" appears four times in document 32, where
> it is linked to a list of code-named products, which are: blood, growth
> hormone, IGF-I (growth factor) and testosterone.
>
>
> ... So the "surname 'Jan'" couldn't refer to Xavier Jan?
>
>


T-Mobile stated clearly why they suspended him, Pevenage and Sevilla,
and it's not because they allege he is doping. They asked for a written
statement of each rider and Pevenage that they never had contact to
Fuentes. It is now very very likely, that in Pevenage and Sevilla's case
this was a lie - you omitted the passages where this is made quite clear
in the article. Therefore they suspended them.
As for Jan: If you combine the name issue with the fact that _his_
mentor had contact with Fuentes, I'd say it's ok for the team to suspend
him too.
If a police officer, a public servant or manager was linked in a similar
way to a crime he might have committed while doing his job, I would also
expect him to be suspended.

Btw.: I'm just listening to an official from T-Mobile who assured that
they will not pull out of cycling sponsoring because that would mean
surrendering to the "doping mafia" (his words). They will instead put
their weight behind fighting doping from inside the system.

[Steven L. Sheffield]

On 07/02/2006 04:57 AM, in article
, "Keith" >
wrote:

> On Sat, 01 Jul 2006 19:06:57 -0600, "Steven L. Sheffield"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> The allegations are as follows:
>>
>> On Jan Ullrich: The surname "Jan" appears four times in document 32, where
>> it is linked to a list of code-named products, which are: blood, growth
>> hormone, IGF-I (growth factor) and testosterone.
>>
>>
>> ... So the "surname 'Jan'" couldn't refer to Xavier Jan?
>
> You seem to forget the SMS sent by "Rudicio" on the day of the Giro
> ITT, see my other message about that
>



Almost all the evidence they have thus far is circumstantial.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul02news2

On Rudy Pevenage: On May 17, at 23.27, Fuentes received an SMS text message
from a Belgian number with the following message: "Friend, when can we talk?
Rudicio." On the next day, at 12.20, Fuentes receives a call from the same
number. As he's busy, he asks the person to call back later. "This evening,"
he responds. "Now, there's a time trial." [which was won by Jan Ullrich -
ed.] The elements lead to the supposition that the identity of "Rudicio" is
T-Mobile's DS Rudy Pevenage, who is also a close personal advisor of Jan
Ullrich.


Note: "The elements lead to the SUPPOSITION that that the identity of
"Rudicio" is T-Mobile's DS Rudy Pevenage."


It doesn't say "the number is registered to Rudy Pevenage" (which, while
still circumstantial, would be harder evidence to refute).

On the same day (May 18) as the mentioned time-trial in the Giro, there was
also a time-trial in the Tour de l'Aude in which Janne Brok was a
participant. Yes, I know she is a woman ... but is women's cycling any
cleaner compared to men's?

Taking time changes into account, there was also a time-trial in the Tour of
Japan (May 19), in which the Belgian rider Jan Verstraeten was a
participant.

[Sandy]

Steven L. Sheffield a écrit :
> On 07/02/2006 04:57 AM, in article
> , "Keith" >
> wrote:
>
>
>> On Sat, 01 Jul 2006 19:06:57 -0600, "Steven L. Sheffield"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>> The allegations are as follows:
>>>
>>> On Jan Ullrich: The surname "Jan" appears four times in document 32, where
>>> it is linked to a list of code-named products, which are: blood, growth
>>> hormone, IGF-I (growth factor) and testosterone.
>>>
>>>
>>> ... So the "surname 'Jan'" couldn't refer to Xavier Jan?
>>>
>> You seem to forget the SMS sent by "Rudicio" on the day of the Giro
>> ITT, see my other message about that
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Almost all the evidence they have thus far is circumstantial.

That's pretty typical. Most times people don't author clearly
incriminating documents or engage in overtly and visible bad conduct,
when trying to cheat.

However, what you identify is an extract of a condensed report, which is
again a summary of actual "evidence" in hand. Evidence is neutral, and
it is up to the factfinder to make a decision on what it means. So far,
all we have is a fourth generation condensation of what is really there.

Worry not - this group will never really have a chance to examine the
totality of proof, but that won't stop people from expressing unfounded
opinions as though they were reasonable.

--

Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR
-
?Someone who knows too much finds it hard not to lie.?
Wittgenstein, L.

[[email protected]]

Steven L. Sheffield wrote:
> The allegations are as follows:
>
> On Jan Ullrich: The surname "Jan" appears four times in document 32, where
> it is linked to a list of code-named products, which are: blood, growth
> hormone, IGF-I (growth factor) and testosterone.
>
>
> ... So the "surname 'Jan'" couldn't refer to Xavier Jan?

I dunno... did Xavier Jan show up in the pics of athletes coming to
Fuente's door after office hours? Isn't Fuentes a gynecologist? Does
he administer HGH to make the small babies grow? And maybe the
expectant mamas need their blood cleaned as well?

[Simon Brooke]

in message >, Ernst Noch ')
wrote:

> Steven L. Sheffield wrote:
>>
>> The allegations are as follows:
>>
>> On Jan Ullrich: The surname "Jan" appears four times in document 32,
>> where it is linked to a list of code-named products, which are: blood,
>> growth hormone, IGF-I (growth factor) and testosterone.
>>
>> ... So the "surname 'Jan'" couldn't refer to Xavier Jan?
>>
>> Steven L. Sheffield schrieb:
>>
>> The allegations are as follows:
>>
>> On Jan Ullrich: The surname "Jan" appears four times in document 32,
>> where it is linked to a list of code-named products, which are: blood,
>> growth hormone, IGF-I (growth factor) and testosterone.
>>
>>
>> ... So the "surname 'Jan'" couldn't refer to Xavier Jan?
>
> T-Mobile stated clearly why they suspended him, Pevenage and Sevilla,
> and it's not because they allege he is doping. They asked for a written
> statement of each rider and Pevenage that they never had contact to
> Fuentes. It is now very very likely, that in Pevenage and Sevilla's
> case this was a lie - you omitted the passages where this is made quite
> clear in the article. Therefore they suspended them.

Could someone post a link to the article you're discussing? I haven't
seen it and it seems to have more detail than anything I have seen.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

The Conservative Party is now dead. The corpse may still be
twitching, but resurrection is not an option - unless Satan
chucks them out of Hell as too objectionable even for him.

[Simon Brooke]

in message >, Steven L. Sheffield
') wrote:

> Almost all the evidence they have thus far is circumstantial.
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul02news2
>
> On Rudy Pevenage: On May 17, at 23.27, Fuentes received an SMS text
> message from a Belgian number with the following message: "Friend, when
> can we talk? Rudicio." On the next day, at 12.20, Fuentes receives a
> call from the same number. As he's busy, he asks the person to call
> back later. "This evening," he responds. "Now, there's a time trial."
> [which was won by Jan Ullrich - ed.] The elements lead to the
> supposition that the identity of "Rudicio" is T-Mobile's DS Rudy
> Pevenage, who is also a close personal advisor of Jan Ullrich.
>
> It doesn't say "the number is registered to Rudy Pevenage" (which,
> while still circumstantial, would be harder evidence to refute).

OK, they have a fscking blood bag with the name 'Jan' on it. As everyone
has said, they've had _six_ _weeks_ to do DNA analysis and compare that
with DNA analysis of blood samples of Ullrich's which the UCI hold. And
their 'evidence' is a text message from an unknown Belgian mobile phone?

That /has/ to mean that the blood samples don't match.

(Please, God. Please!)

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
"The result is a language that... not even its mother could
love. Like the camel, Common Lisp is a horse designed by
committee. Camels do have their uses."
;; Scott Fahlman, 7 March 1995

[Steven L. Sheffield]

On 07/02/2006 10:29 AM, in article
. com,
" > wrote:

>
> Steven L. Sheffield wrote:
>> The allegations are as follows:
>>
>> On Jan Ullrich: The surname "Jan" appears four times in document 32, where
>> it is linked to a list of code-named products, which are: blood, growth
>> hormone, IGF-I (growth factor) and testosterone.
>>
>>
>> ... So the "surname 'Jan'" couldn't refer to Xavier Jan?
>
> I dunno... did Xavier Jan show up in the pics of athletes coming to
> Fuente's door after office hours?


Doubtful, but neither did Ullrich.


> Isn't Fuentes a gynecologist? Does
> he administer HGH to make the small babies grow? And maybe the
> expectant mamas need their blood cleaned as well?
>

[Keith]

>> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul02news2
>>
>> On Rudy Pevenage: On May 17, at 23.27, Fuentes received an SMS text
>> message from a Belgian number with the following message: "Friend, when
>> can we talk? Rudicio." On the next day, at 12.20, Fuentes receives a
>> call from the same number. As he's busy, he asks the person to call
>> back later. "This evening," he responds. "Now, there's a time trial."
>> [which was won by Jan Ullrich - ed.] The elements lead to the
>> supposition that the identity of "Rudicio" is T-Mobile's DS Rudy
>> Pevenage, who is also a close personal advisor of Jan Ullrich.
>>
>> It doesn't say "the number is registered to Rudy Pevenage" (which,
>> while still circumstantial, would be harder evidence to refute).
>
>OK, they have a fscking blood bag with the name 'Jan' on it. As everyone
>has said, they've had _six_ _weeks_ to do DNA analysis and compare that
>with DNA analysis of blood samples of Ullrich's which the UCI hold. And
>their 'evidence' is a text message from an unknown Belgian mobile phone?
>
>That /has/ to mean that the blood samples don't match.

Odd indeed that DNA testing hasn't been run yet...

Still it's likley that Pevenage is involved and it's hard to imagine
he was helping Sevilla who probably knew Fuentes from before, he was
handling business for Ullrich.

There's no way T-Mobile would have suspended national hero Ullrich if
they'd had the slightest doubt he hadn't lied to them. Now if he's
innocent, that's going to cost them !

[RonSonic]

On Sun, 02 Jul 2006 20:30:50 +0100, Simon Brooke > wrote:

>in message >, Steven L. Sheffield
') wrote:
>
>> Almost all the evidence they have thus far is circumstantial.
>>
>> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul02news2
>>
>> On Rudy Pevenage: On May 17, at 23.27, Fuentes received an SMS text
>> message from a Belgian number with the following message: "Friend, when
>> can we talk? Rudicio." On the next day, at 12.20, Fuentes receives a
>> call from the same number. As he's busy, he asks the person to call
>> back later. "This evening," he responds. "Now, there's a time trial."
>> [which was won by Jan Ullrich - ed.] The elements lead to the
>> supposition that the identity of "Rudicio" is T-Mobile's DS Rudy
>> Pevenage, who is also a close personal advisor of Jan Ullrich.
>>
>> It doesn't say "the number is registered to Rudy Pevenage" (which,
>> while still circumstantial, would be harder evidence to refute).
>
>OK, they have a fscking blood bag with the name 'Jan' on it. As everyone
>has said, they've had _six_ _weeks_ to do DNA analysis and compare that
>with DNA analysis of blood samples of Ullrich's which the UCI hold. And
>their 'evidence' is a text message from an unknown Belgian mobile phone?
>
>That /has/ to mean that the blood samples don't match.
>
>(Please, God. Please!)

East German athlete, known to use party enhancing drugs ....

Sorry dude.

Ron