"Glad they're gone and may they never come back."

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

Phil isn't in a very charitable mood; in this morning's coverage, he first
said that, if those dropped from the Tdf are innocent, a terribly injustice
has been done. But if they're found guilty, his exact quote was "Then I'm
glad they're gone and may they never come back."

Funny also to hear Phil, Paul & Bob ridicule Al for his pick of Thor to win
the prologue. Hate to have to give Al Trautwig credit for anything, but...

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

[Wayne]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> Phil isn't in a very charitable mood; in this morning's coverage, he first
> said that, if those dropped from the Tdf are innocent, a terribly injustice
> has been done. But if they're found guilty, his exact quote was "Then I'm
> glad they're gone and may they never come back."
>
> Funny also to hear Phil, Paul & Bob ridicule Al for his pick of Thor to win
> the prologue. Hate to have to give Al Trautwig credit for anything, but...
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

... not to mention Liggett's praise of Millar for admitting his errors
and serving his suspension. Lucky Millar wasn't caught in 2005 once
the new Pro Tour Ethics Code was in place; we couldn't have Phil
bidding adieu to Millar now, I suppose.

This is all quite refreshing, as cycling re-discovers earlier and
well-tested approaches to misbehavior. Or alleged misbehavior. Or
rumors.

The lessons of Salem, and the Inquisition, and, further back, the
Crusades (kill 'em all) seem as valid today as in their original days.
Confess! Or we will drown you, or torture you, until you do. Anyone
consistently protesting their innocence is not credible, and is roundly
condemned by the cycling and WADA authorities, much of the press, and a
vast majority of this and other newsgroups.

Proof? Evidence? Why bother? As Riis has said, let Basso prove his
innocence. If that somehow seems backwards to you, you simply haven't
become enlightened enough to realize due process is merely an
impediment to real justice.

There is no "war" against drugs here. Instead there is a pathology of
those dispensing with real evidence, condoning test lab shortcuts,
evasions and mistaken science; accusation without independent proof;
and a rush to judgment with the presumption of guilt.

Heaven help the cyclists. Some may actually be innocent here. The
damage done to them is irredeemable. The authorities and all others
who feel that this is a legitimate approach to reaching a "clean" sport
might instead spend a minute imagining their own procedures used
against them in some other area of their lives.

Wayne

[Bill C]

Wayne wrote:
>
> This is all quite refreshing, as cycling re-discovers earlier and
> well-tested approaches to misbehavior. Or alleged misbehavior. Or
> rumors.
>
> The lessons of Salem, and the Inquisition, and, further back, the
> Crusades (kill 'em all) seem as valid today as in their original days.
> Confess! Or we will drown you, or torture you, until you do. Anyone
> consistently protesting their innocence is not credible, and is roundly
> condemned by the cycling and WADA authorities, much of the press, and a
> vast majority of this and other newsgroups.
>
> Proof? Evidence? Why bother? As Riis has said, let Basso prove his
> innocence. If that somehow seems backwards to you, you simply haven't
> become enlightened enough to realize due process is merely an
> impediment to real justice.
>
> There is no "war" against drugs here. Instead there is a pathology of
> those dispensing with real evidence, condoning test lab shortcuts,
> evasions and mistaken science; accusation without independent proof;
> and a rush to judgment with the presumption of guilt.
>
> Heaven help the cyclists. Some may actually be innocent here. The
> damage done to them is irredeemable. The authorities and all others
> who feel that this is a legitimate approach to reaching a "clean" sport
> might instead spend a minute imagining their own procedures used
> against them in some other area of their lives.
>
> Wayne
Nicely put!
Bill C

[Diablo Scott]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> Phil isn't in a very charitable mood; in this morning's coverage, he first
> said that, if those dropped from the Tdf are innocent, a terribly injustice
> has been done. But if they're found guilty, his exact quote was "Then I'm
> glad they're gone and may they never come back."

Then he said how much David Millar deserves this second chance - there's
a double standard.

Then he said Millar deserves credit for confessing... didn't mention the
pre-confession chat he had with the gendarmerie.

I like Phil for the excitement he brings to the commentary, I'll
overlook the rest.

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> I like Phil for the excitement he brings to the commentary, I'll overlook
> the rest.

Agreed. Nobody else can carry the last half hour of a boring stage as if it
were a horse race. But for accuracy and real insight, Paul Sherwin is the
man. I've heard them both speak in a small group, and Paul is very
impressive. So, for that matter, is Graham Watson, but Graham is basically
shy and recedes into the background if anyone else noteworthy is present.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Diablo Scott" > wrote in message
...
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>> Phil isn't in a very charitable mood; in this morning's coverage, he
>> first said that, if those dropped from the Tdf are innocent, a terribly
>> injustice has been done. But if they're found guilty, his exact quote was
>> "Then I'm glad they're gone and may they never come back."
>
> Then he said how much David Millar deserves this second chance - there's a
> double standard.
>
> Then he said Millar deserves credit for confessing... didn't mention the
> pre-confession chat he had with the gendarmerie.
>
> I like Phil for the excitement he brings to the commentary, I'll overlook
> the rest.

[Marlene Blanshay]

Bill C wrote:
> Wayne wrote:
>
>>This is all quite refreshing, as cycling re-discovers earlier and
>>well-tested approaches to misbehavior. Or alleged misbehavior. Or
>>rumors.
>>
>>The lessons of Salem, and the Inquisition, and, further back, the
>>Crusades (kill 'em all) seem as valid today as in their original days.
>>Confess! Or we will drown you, or torture you, until you do. Anyone
>>consistently protesting their innocence is not credible, and is roundly
>>condemned by the cycling and WADA authorities, much of the press, and a
>>vast majority of this and other newsgroups.
>>
>>Proof? Evidence? Why bother? As Riis has said, let Basso prove his
>>innocence. If that somehow seems backwards to you, you simply haven't
>>become enlightened enough to realize due process is merely an
>>impediment to real justice.
>>
>>There is no "war" against drugs here. Instead there is a pathology of
>>those dispensing with real evidence, condoning test lab shortcuts,
>>evasions and mistaken science; accusation without independent proof;
>>and a rush to judgment with the presumption of guilt.
>>
>>Heaven help the cyclists. Some may actually be innocent here. The
>>damage done to them is irredeemable. The authorities and all others
>>who feel that this is a legitimate approach to reaching a "clean" sport
>>might instead spend a minute imagining their own procedures used
>>against them in some other area of their lives.
>>
>>Wayne
>
> Nicely put!
> Bill C
>
the whole thing makes me think of Homeland security and 'suspected'
terrorists, or those 'under suspicion'. It's just assumed they're guilty
because they're muslim, or have a muslim name or were seen here and
there, talking to this or that person. Maybe some of them are up to no
good. But a lot of the 'suspected terrorists' in the US were actually
nailed for other crimes , not terrorism. Basically, we're arresting
people for things they MIGHT DO- how Minority Report. That's what
they're doing to these guys. It's so easy to release that gassy cloud of
suspicion, but then you can't just take it back and say OOOPS! Sorry!
Try getting rid of it- it haunted Pantani until his grave.

[[email protected]]

Marlene Blanshay wrote:
> Bill C wrote:
> > Wayne wrote:
> >
g for assistants to Torequemada. Alas, I've misplaced the phone
number.> >>This is all quite refreshing, as cycling re-discovers
earlier and
> >>well-tested approaches to misbehavior. Or alleged misbehavior. Or
> >>rumors.
> >>
> >> (etc.)
> >>
> >
> the whole thing makes me think of Homeland security and 'suspected'
> terrorists, or those 'under suspicion'. It's just assumed they're guilty
> because they're muslim, or have a muslim name or were seen here and
> there, talking to this or that person. Maybe some of them are up to no
> good. But a lot of the 'suspected terrorists' in the US were actually
> nailed for other crimes , not terrorism. Basically, we're arresting
> people for things they MIGHT DO- how Minority Report. That's what
> they're doing to these guys. It's so easy to release that gassy cloud of
> suspicion, but then you can't just take it back and say OOOPS! Sorry!
> Try getting rid of it- it haunted Pantani until his grave.

If I had a choice I would prefer to avoid comparisons with actual
war(s) taking place and our government's responses to it. There are
difficult decisions to be made when the price of failure can be many
thousands of lives, and there are political and personal decisions and
responsibilities for the conduct of a war, declared or otherwise.

But as you state, and as I hinted above, the damage to the cyclists
here can't be undone -- and what -exactly- was the risk in a delay for
establishing actual proof, providing for scientific examination of
evidence, and persuasion via legal arguments on either side? Assume
the Spanish newspapers and the sporting authorities are 100% correct
here -- what harm would have been done in waiting for such arcane
concerns as due process? The Friday bans can't have been for the
health of the cyclists; can anyone here document a medical risk in
re-infusion of one's own blood so long as the crit level remains
reasonable?

One can suspect that this particular show is for the benefit of cycling
bodies and the drug police, and for little else.

I deplore sports cheating. But the long-term harm done by such acts is
negligible compared to a culture of condemnation via rumors, shaky
evidence and UCI, federation, and WADA leadership unworthy of the name.

For those intent on "cleansing" cycling via banishment on the basis of
what's now known; and for those demanding more stringent punishments
for those failing to confess to crimes they deny having committed, I
was going to add a job posting: Torquemada is looking for more
assistants. Alas, I have misplaced his telephone number.

Wayne

[RonSonic]

On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 00:11:27 -0400, Marlene Blanshay >
wrote:


>>>Heaven help the cyclists. Some may actually be innocent here. The
>>>damage done to them is irredeemable. The authorities and all others
>>>who feel that this is a legitimate approach to reaching a "clean" sport
>>>might instead spend a minute imagining their own procedures used
>>>against them in some other area of their lives.
>>>
>>>Wayne
>>
>> Nicely put!
>> Bill C
>>
>the whole thing makes me think of Homeland security and 'suspected'
>terrorists, or those 'under suspicion'. It's just assumed they're guilty
>because they're muslim, or have a muslim name or were seen here and
>there, talking to this or that person. Maybe some of them are up to no
>good. But a lot of the 'suspected terrorists' in the US were actually
>nailed for other crimes , not terrorism. Basically, we're arresting
>people for things they MIGHT DO- how Minority Report.

Whatever the hell are you talking about. Nobody's being arrested for what they
might do - you yourself, just now said they are being "nailed for other crimes."
If they did other crimes well let's arrest 'em for it. Being accused of
conspiracy to commit terrorism means you can't be arrested for anything else?

If someone's up to no good, then there should be an investigation and their
crimes detected. Sheesh.

How you've thrown away all sense to try to make a political point.

Ron

[Marlene Blanshay]

wrote:
> Marlene Blanshay wrote:
>
>>Bill C wrote:
>>
>>>Wayne wrote:
>>>
>
> g for assistants to Torequemada. Alas, I've misplaced the phone
> number.> >>This is all quite refreshing, as cycling re-discovers
> earlier and
>
>>>>well-tested approaches to misbehavior. Or alleged misbehavior. Or
>>>>rumors.
>>>>
>>>>(etc.)
>>>>
>>>
>>the whole thing makes me think of Homeland security and 'suspected'
>>terrorists, or those 'under suspicion'. It's just assumed they're guilty
>>because they're muslim, or have a muslim name or were seen here and
>>there, talking to this or that person. Maybe some of them are up to no
>>good. But a lot of the 'suspected terrorists' in the US were actually
>>nailed for other crimes , not terrorism. Basically, we're arresting
>>people for things they MIGHT DO- how Minority Report. That's what
>>they're doing to these guys. It's so easy to release that gassy cloud of
>>suspicion, but then you can't just take it back and say OOOPS! Sorry!
>>Try getting rid of it- it haunted Pantani until his grave.
>
>
> If I had a choice I would prefer to avoid comparisons with actual
> war(s) taking place and our government's responses to it. There are
> difficult decisions to be made when the price of failure can be many
> thousands of lives, and there are political and personal decisions and
> responsibilities for the conduct of a war, declared or otherwise.
>
> But as you state, and as I hinted above, the damage to the cyclists
> here can't be undone -- and what -exactly- was the risk in a delay for
> establishing actual proof, providing for scientific examination of
> evidence, and persuasion via legal arguments on either side? Assume
> the Spanish newspapers and the sporting authorities are 100% correct
> here -- what harm would have been done in waiting for such arcane
> concerns as due process? The Friday bans can't have been for the
> health of the cyclists; can anyone here document a medical risk in
> re-infusion of one's own blood so long as the crit level remains
> reasonable?
>
> One can suspect that this particular show is for the benefit of cycling
> bodies and the drug police, and for little else.
>
> I deplore sports cheating. But the long-term harm done by such acts is
> negligible compared to a culture of condemnation via rumors, shaky
> evidence and UCI, federation, and WADA leadership unworthy of the name.
>
> For those intent on "cleansing" cycling via banishment on the basis of
> what's now known; and for those demanding more stringent punishments
> for those failing to confess to crimes they deny having committed, I
> was going to add a job posting: Torquemada is looking for more
> assistants. Alas, I have misplaced his telephone number.
>
> Wayne
>
I could have used another example like the Blacklist or a stalinist
purge... but this was more contemporary and it has its similarities. I
think you're all taking it way too literally anyways and there isn't any
political point here. Let's call it a purge anyways... that's more accurate.

[Bill C]

Marlene Blanshay wrote:
> I could have used another example like the Blacklist or a stalinist
> purge... but this was more contemporary and it has its similarities. I
> think you're all taking it way too literally anyways and there isn't any
> political point here. Let's call it a purge anyways... that's more accurate.

Thanks Marlene
Now for the BUT. Power is politics, and politics is about power. Pound
would sell his mother and sister to a whorehouse for power IMO, and
that's just my opinion. Politics is staying on top, and he's using his
crusade to stay there despite all the questions around it. Lives
wrecked are lives wrecked. Doesn't matter if they're wrecked by a
traditional politician, or a bureaucrat grabbing for more.
Bill C

[Marlene Blanshay]

Bill C wrote:
> Marlene Blanshay wrote:
>
>>I could have used another example like the Blacklist or a stalinist
>>purge... but this was more contemporary and it has its similarities. I
>>think you're all taking it way too literally anyways and there isn't any
>>political point here. Let's call it a purge anyways... that's more accurate.
>
>
> Thanks Marlene
> Now for the BUT. Power is politics, and politics is about power. Pound
> would sell his mother and sister to a whorehouse for power IMO, and
> that's just my opinion. Politics is staying on top, and he's using his
> crusade to stay there despite all the questions around it. Lives
> wrecked are lives wrecked. Doesn't matter if they're wrecked by a
> traditional politician, or a bureaucrat grabbing for more.
> Bill C
>
gee tell us how you really feel... LOL... but i agree, he's a total nimwack.