Big Green Hands: Nothing New

[Bruce Wilson]

http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=1153
See McEwen's third paragraph.
--
Bruce Wilson http://science.uvsc.edu/wilson

[trg]

"Bruce Wilson" > a écrit dans le message de news:
...
| http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=1153
| See McEwen's third paragraph.
| --
| Bruce Wilson http://science.uvsc.edu/wilson
|
|

The broadcasters all were saying it was one of those green hands, but I
don't think that was it. It looked to me that the impact happened just
before he got to the hand. Maybe a camera? A big piece of Neoprene isn't
goint to open a gash on someone's arm, even at 60+ km/hr.

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> The broadcasters all were saying it was one of those green hands, but I
> don't think that was it. It looked to me that the impact happened just
> before he got to the hand. Maybe a camera? A big piece of Neoprene isn't
> goint to open a gash on someone's arm, even at 60+ km/hr.

The PMU Green Hands aren't Neoprene; they're thin, reinforced (stiff)
cardboard. They could most certainly one heck of a paper cut at high speeds.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

[trg]

"Mike Jacoubowsky" > a écrit dans le message de news:
. ..
|> The broadcasters all were saying it was one of those green hands, but I
| > don't think that was it. It looked to me that the impact happened just
| > before he got to the hand. Maybe a camera? A big piece of Neoprene isn't
| > goint to open a gash on someone's arm, even at 60+ km/hr.
|
| The PMU Green Hands aren't Neoprene; they're thin, reinforced (stiff)
| cardboard. They could most certainly one heck of a paper cut at high
speeds.
|

Even if it was cardboard, the wound was described as a "trou" (a hole)
rather than a slice. Plus, if you look at the slo-mo closeup, you can see
him reacting to the impact while the hand was still stationary.

[[email protected]]

trg wrote:
> "Mike Jacoubowsky" > a écrit dans le message de news:
> |> The broadcasters all were saying it was one of those green hands, butI
> | > don't think that was it. It looked to me that the impact happened just
> | > before he got to the hand. Maybe a camera? A big piece of Neoprene isn't
> | > goint to open a gash on someone's arm, even at 60+ km/hr.
> |
> | The PMU Green Hands aren't Neoprene; they're thin, reinforced (stiff)
> | cardboard. They could most certainly one heck of a paper cut at high
> speeds.
> |
>
> Even if it was cardboard, the wound was described as a "trou" (a hole)
> rather than a slice. Plus, if you look at the slo-mo closeup, you can see
> him reacting to the impact while the hand was still stationary.

Wow, diving and simulating injury is really getting to
be an epidemic: first the World Cup, now this.

Ben
Anyone remember the Chilean goalkeeper who faked
injury in the 1990 qualifiers?

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> Even if it was cardboard, the wound was described as a "trou" (a hole)
> rather than a slice. Plus, if you look at the slo-mo closeup, you can see
> him reacting to the impact while the hand was still stationary.

We'll disagree on that one; at that speed, catching the edge of one of those
could do some real damage. But I'm also not so sure that's what happened;
when I watched the slo-mo, it was tough to tell, but at regular speed
there's one instance where it looks like he hit and bounced off the barrier.
Or it could have just been him swerving to avoid something. Eventually the
hi-res film from the Cyclingnews blimp (Hindenburgh V?) ought to give us the
whole story.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"trg" > wrote in message
...
> "Mike Jacoubowsky" > a écrit dans le message de news:
> . ..
> |> The broadcasters all were saying it was one of those green hands, but
> I
> | > don't think that was it. It looked to me that the impact happened just
> | > before he got to the hand. Maybe a camera? A big piece of Neoprene
> isn't
> | > goint to open a gash on someone's arm, even at 60+ km/hr.
> |
> | The PMU Green Hands aren't Neoprene; they're thin, reinforced (stiff)
> | cardboard. They could most certainly one heck of a paper cut at high
> speeds.
> |
>
> Even if it was cardboard, the wound was described as a "trou" (a hole)
> rather than a slice. Plus, if you look at the slo-mo closeup, you can see
> him reacting to the impact while the hand was still stationary.
>
>

[Brian Phillips]

On that same website is this update:

Thor was looking good all day long. He was sporting that Yellow Jersey and
his team was leading the chase like champs. In that final sprint, Hushovd
was mixed in with the other big boys when something strange happened.
Hushovd was making his move, trying to come around Boonen on the right by
running alongside the barriers. Then he clipped the arm of a fan. At first
glance, it looked like he clipped one of those big green souvenir hands, but
in fact a fan had stuck an arm with a camera into the path of the riders to
take a picture. In the slow motion replay, you can see Hushovd strike the
arm with his head and upper arm, and you can see the camera go spinning out
of the spectator's hand. Hushovd came away with a deep gash on his arm
(probably from the camera): you could see Thor flinch and slow down after
the blow, but then he tried to accelerate again. He crossed the line in 9th,
and as he did he looked down to see an alarming amount of blood running down
his arm. He fell off of his bike and got medical attention immediately, and
it looks like he'll need some stitches to close the wound. But early reports
are that the wound is not serious and he will be able to ride again
tomorrow. Thor is still in 2nd on GC only 2" behind Hincapie, and with any
luck he'll be able to mix it at the front of the final sprint tomorrow and
try to reclaim the Yellow Jersey.

"Bruce Wilson" > wrote in message
. ..
> http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=1153
> See McEwen's third paragraph.
> --
> Bruce Wilson http://science.uvsc.edu/wilson
>
>

[Michael Press]

In article
m>,
" > wrote:

> trg wrote:
> > "Mike Jacoubowsky" > a écrit dans le message de news:
> > |> The broadcasters all were saying it was one of those green hands, but I
> > | > don't think that was it. It looked to me that the impact happened just
> > | > before he got to the hand. Maybe a camera? A big piece of Neoprene isn't
> > | > goint to open a gash on someone's arm, even at 60+ km/hr.
> > |
> > | The PMU Green Hands aren't Neoprene; they're thin, reinforced (stiff)
> > | cardboard. They could most certainly one heck of a paper cut at high
> > speeds.
> > |
> >
> > Even if it was cardboard, the wound was described as a "trou" (a hole)
> > rather than a slice. Plus, if you look at the slo-mo closeup, you can see
> > him reacting to the impact while the hand was still stationary.
>
> Wow, diving and simulating injury is really getting to
> be an epidemic: first the World Cup, now this.
>
> Ben
> Anyone remember the Chilean goalkeeper who faked
> injury in the 1990 qualifiers?

A modest proposal:

Anyone going down has a ten-count to get up.

If a downed player is not on his feet after a ten-count,
he must be removed from the pitch on a stretcher, and may
not return.

A player removed for a medical emergency may be
substituted for him only at a time when substitutions are
allowed.

--
Michael Press

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

>> > Even if it was cardboard, the wound was described as a "trou" (a hole)
>> > rather than a slice. Plus, if you look at the slo-mo closeup, you can
>> > see
>> > him reacting to the impact while the hand was still stationary.
>>
>> Wow, diving and simulating injury is really getting to
>> be an epidemic: first the World Cup, now this.

> A modest proposal:
>
> Anyone going down has a ten-count to get up.
>
> If a downed player is not on his feet after a ten-count,
> he must be removed from the pitch on a stretcher, and may
> not return.
>
> A player removed for a medical emergency may be
> substituted for him only at a time when substitutions are
> allowed.

Does rbr not already have enough obtuse threads?

The issue about how much damage a PMU Green Hand can cause remains
interesting, but not relevant to the incident. As has been reported by
others here, Thor's injury was apparently caused by a collision with a
camera being held by a fan.

I'm somewhat conflicted about the role of the fan in all of this. Having
been to the TdF a number of times (this year will be #7; I seem to be
hooked), and seen how they move the barriers well back from the road in
Paris, specifically to keep spectators away from the cyclists, and how
difficult that makes it to actually watch the race...

Isn't part of what makes bike racing such a cool sport the fact that you, as
the spectator, are THERE, mere feet/inches/cm/meters away from the athletes?
What do we lose if we barricade everything well back from the road? And the
racers themselves... it's not like this is anything new. Do they have zero
responsibility at times to consider that there are risks when you ride
inches away from the barriers?

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Michael Press" > wrote in message
...
> In article
> m>,
> " > wrote:
>
>> trg wrote:
>> > "Mike Jacoubowsky" > a écrit dans le message de
>> > news:
>> > |> The broadcasters all were saying it was one of those green hands,
>> > but I
>> > | > don't think that was it. It looked to me that the impact happened
>> > just
>> > | > before he got to the hand. Maybe a camera? A big piece of Neoprene
>> > isn't
>> > | > goint to open a gash on someone's arm, even at 60+ km/hr.
>> > |
>> > | The PMU Green Hands aren't Neoprene; they're thin, reinforced (stiff)
>> > | cardboard. They could most certainly one heck of a paper cut at high
>> > speeds.
>> > |
>> >
>> > Even if it was cardboard, the wound was described as a "trou" (a hole)
>> > rather than a slice. Plus, if you look at the slo-mo closeup, you can
>> > see
>> > him reacting to the impact while the hand was still stationary.
>>
>> Wow, diving and simulating injury is really getting to
>> be an epidemic: first the World Cup, now this.
>>
>> Ben
>> Anyone remember the Chilean goalkeeper who faked
>> injury in the 1990 qualifiers?
>
> A modest proposal:
>
> Anyone going down has a ten-count to get up.
>
> If a downed player is not on his feet after a ten-count,
> he must be removed from the pitch on a stretcher, and may
> not return.
>
> A player removed for a medical emergency may be
> substituted for him only at a time when substitutions are
> allowed.
>
> --
> Michael Press

[Raptor]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> Isn't part of what makes bike racing such a cool sport the fact that you, as
> the spectator, are THERE, mere feet/inches/cm/meters away from the athletes?
> What do we lose if we barricade everything well back from the road? And the
> racers themselves... it's not like this is anything new. Do they have zero
> responsibility at times to consider that there are risks when you ride
> inches away from the barriers?
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Yeah, leave it the way it is. Thor knew the risks of hugging the
barriers, calculated and took them. He got off fairly light.

--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the
trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are, in my view,
the most insidious of traitors."
George H.W. Bush, April 16, 1999,

[Michael Press]

In article
>,
"Mike Jacoubowsky" > wrote:

> >> > Even if it was cardboard, the wound was described as a "trou" (a hole)
> >> > rather than a slice. Plus, if you look at the slo-mo closeup, you can
> >> > see
> >> > him reacting to the impact while the hand was still stationary.
> >>
> >> Wow, diving and simulating injury is really getting to
> >> be an epidemic: first the World Cup, now this.
>
> > A modest proposal:
> >
> > Anyone going down has a ten-count to get up.
> >
> > If a downed player is not on his feet after a ten-count,
> > he must be removed from the pitch on a stretcher, and may
> > not return.
> >
> > A player removed for a medical emergency may be
> > substituted for him only at a time when substitutions are
> > allowed.
>
> Does rbr not already have enough obtuse threads?
>
> The issue about how much damage a PMU Green Hand can cause remains
> interesting, but not relevant to the incident. As has been reported by
> others here, Thor's injury was apparently caused by a collision with a
> camera being held by a fan.
>
> I'm somewhat conflicted about the role of the fan in all of this. Having
> been to the TdF a number of times (this year will be #7; I seem to be
> hooked), and seen how they move the barriers well back from the road in
> Paris, specifically to keep spectators away from the cyclists, and how
> difficult that makes it to actually watch the race...
>
> Isn't part of what makes bike racing such a cool sport the fact that you, as
> the spectator, are THERE, mere feet/inches/cm/meters away from the athletes?
> What do we lose if we barricade everything well back from the road? And the
> racers themselves... it's not like this is anything new. Do they have zero
> responsibility at times to consider that there are risks when you ride
> inches away from the barriers?
>

Sorry to have mislead you. I was talking about football.
Note the word `pitch.'

--
Michael Press

[[email protected]]

Michael Press wrote:
> " > wrote:
> >
> > Wow, diving and simulating injury is really getting to
> > be an epidemic: first the World Cup, now this.
>
> A modest proposal:
>
> Anyone going down has a ten-count to get up.
>
> If a downed player is not on his feet after a ten-count,
> he must be removed from the pitch on a stretcher, and may
> not return.
>
> A player removed for a medical emergency may be
> substituted for him only at a time when substitutions are
> allowed.

That's pretty harsh - there are no substitutions in a stage race.
But okay, football. The time wasted by diving and simulating
injury is not huge and there is a mechanism for dealing with it
(stoppage time). When a player is taking a lot of time (real
or not) and gets stretchered or helped off, he has to wait for
a pause in the action to return to the pitch. Forbidding returns
but allowing substutions would cause one of two problems:
(1) count substitutions against the 3 allowed. In this case,
injured players would limp on the pitch rather than going off
and costing a sub.
(2) medical subs are free. In this case, players could fake
injury to get an extra sub.

The problem with diving is not so much time, more so pleading
for fouls and cards, and also breaking up the flow of play.
Even then, a little flopping is tolerable, tackling and falling are
both judgment calls. It's only the obvious team flop strategies
that are really a problem.

> > Ben
> > Anyone remember the Chilean goalkeeper who faked
> > injury in the 1990 qualifiers?

To explain the marginal relevance, there was a Brazil-Chile
preliminary in 1989 where someone threw a firework onto the
field. The Chilean keeper, Rojas, went down and came up
covered in blood, like Hushovd. The Chileans refused to play
on (trying to get the match forfeited or rescheduled, probably).
It later turned out, with video evidence, that the keeper had
deliberately cut himself with a blade he had hidden in his
clothing. Talk about advance planning! Chile was banned from
the 1994 World Cup qualifying for the episode. I remember the
sorry tale because a guy who lives in Chile told me, sheepishly.

[trg]

> a écrit dans le message de news:
m...
trg wrote:
> "Mike Jacoubowsky" > a écrit dans le message de news:
> |> The broadcasters all were saying it was one of those green hands, but
> I
> | > don't think that was it. It looked to me that the impact happened just
> | > before he got to the hand. Maybe a camera? A big piece of Neoprene
> isn't
> | > goint to open a gash on someone's arm, even at 60+ km/hr.
> |
> | The PMU Green Hands aren't Neoprene; they're thin, reinforced (stiff)
> | cardboard. They could most certainly one heck of a paper cut at high
> speeds.
> |
>
> Even if it was cardboard, the wound was described as a "trou" (a hole)
> rather than a slice. Plus, if you look at the slo-mo closeup, you can see
> him reacting to the impact while the hand was still stationary.

>Anyone remember the Chilean goalkeeper who faked
>injury in the 1990 qualifiers?

25 to 1

That's my guess as to the ration of times a keeper gets injured when his
team is leading to when it is behind.

[Kjell Arne Olsen]

Raptor > wrote:

>Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>> Isn't part of what makes bike racing such a cool sport the fact that you, as
>> the spectator, are THERE, mere feet/inches/cm/meters away from the athletes?
>> What do we lose if we barricade everything well back from the road? And the
>> racers themselves... it's not like this is anything new. Do they have zero
>> responsibility at times to consider that there are risks when you ride
>> inches away from the barriers?
>>
>> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
>> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>
>Yeah, leave it the way it is. Thor knew the risks of hugging the
>barriers, calculated and took them. He got off fairly light.

Even Thor himself said afterwards "leave it the way it is". But a
second set of barriers half a metre in front of the existing wouldn't
hurt, huh?

Cheers,
Kjell Arne
--
http://www.brumunddal-sk.idrett.no/
Remove your clothes if you want to answer by e-mail!

[Michael Press]

In article
. com>,
" > wrote:

> Michael Press wrote:
> > " > wrote:
> > >
> > > Wow, diving and simulating injury is really getting to
> > > be an epidemic: first the World Cup, now this.
> >
> > A modest proposal:
> >
> > Anyone going down has a ten-count to get up.
> >
> > If a downed player is not on his feet after a ten-count,
> > he must be removed from the pitch on a stretcher, and may
> > not return.
> >
> > A player removed for a medical emergency may be
> > substituted for him only at a time when substitutions are
> > allowed.
>
> That's pretty harsh - there are no substitutions in a stage race.
> But okay, football. The time wasted by diving and simulating
> injury is not huge and there is a mechanism for dealing with it
> (stoppage time). When a player is taking a lot of time (real
> or not) and gets stretchered or helped off, he has to wait for
> a pause in the action to return to the pitch. Forbidding returns
> but allowing substutions would cause one of two problems:
> (1) count substitutions against the 3 allowed. In this case,
> injured players would limp on the pitch rather than going off
> and costing a sub.
> (2) medical subs are free. In this case, players could fake
> injury to get an extra sub.
>
> The problem with diving is not so much time, more so pleading
> for fouls and cards, and also breaking up the flow of play.

I do not follow futbol. When I watch it is for the flow.

> Even then, a little flopping is tolerable, tackling and falling are
> both judgment calls. It's only the obvious team flop strategies
> that are really a problem.
>
> > > Ben
> > > Anyone remember the Chilean goalkeeper who faked
> > > injury in the 1990 qualifiers?
>
> To explain the marginal relevance, there was a Brazil-Chile
> preliminary in 1989 where someone threw a firework onto the
> field. The Chilean keeper, Rojas, went down and came up
> covered in blood, like Hushovd. The Chileans refused to play
> on (trying to get the match forfeited or rescheduled, probably).
> It later turned out, with video evidence, that the keeper had
> deliberately cut himself with a blade he had hidden in his
> clothing. Talk about advance planning! Chile was banned from
> the 1994 World Cup qualifying for the episode. I remember the
> sorry tale because a guy who lives in Chile told me, sheepishly.

I give up. They want it more than I do not want it. Can a
referee call a flop in futbol? It works in the NHL.

--
Michael Press

[[email protected]]

Michael Press wrote:

> > To explain the marginal relevance, there was a Brazil-Chile
> > preliminary in 1989 where someone threw a firework onto the
> > field. The Chilean keeper, Rojas, went down and came up
> > covered in blood, like Hushovd. The Chileans refused to play
> > on (trying to get the match forfeited or rescheduled, probably).
> > It later turned out, with video evidence, that the keeper had
> > deliberately cut himself with a blade he had hidden in his
> > clothing. Talk about advance planning! Chile was banned from
> > the 1994 World Cup qualifying for the episode. I remember the
> > sorry tale because a guy who lives in Chile told me, sheepishly.
>
> I give up. They want it more than I do not want it. Can a
> referee call a flop in futbol? It works in the NHL.

Yes. Typically a yellow card for diving in the penalty area.
There was one to Argentina against Germany, and to Ghana
against Brazil (a fairly excessive dive by Gyan). Outside the
area, when the referee judges it a dive he usually just waves
play to go on and lets the diver look foolish, but he can issue
warnings and cards.

The NHL has an anti-flopping, take it like a man ethos; but
hockey is a full-contact sport and futbol is not, so the line
between permissible contact and fouling is different.

BTW, I should say that Chile derived no benefit from the 1989
keeper injury faking and it was especially egregious, which is
why anyone remembers it.

Ben