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Pete
May 27th 04, 04:42 AM
"Mike Vandeman" > wrote
>
> National parks are closed to mountain biking.

Liar

google for "national park"+"mountain bike" reveals:

Haleakala National Park
Joshua Tree National Park
Zion National Park
Great Smoky Mountains National Park
Arches National Park

All refer to/allow mountain biking in one form or another. There are others.
One park, GSM, specifically and explicitly states: "Bicycles are prohibited
on park trails, with four exceptions."
http://www.cs.utk.edu/~dunigan/mtnbike/rich.html

Pete

Mike Vandeman
May 27th 04, 03:10 PM
On Thu, 27 May 2004 03:42:10 GMT, "Pete" > wrote:

..
.."Mike Vandeman" > wrote
..>
..> National parks are closed to mountain biking.
..
..Liar

In general, mational parks are closed to mountain biking. You may have found the
regulations on mountain biking.

..google for "national park"+"mountain bike" reveals:
..
..Haleakala National Park
..Joshua Tree National Park
..Zion National Park
..Great Smoky Mountains National Park
..Arches National Park
..
..All refer to/allow mountain biking in one form or another. There are others.
..One park, GSM, specifically and explicitly states: "Bicycles are prohibited
..on park trails, with four exceptions."
..http://www.cs.utk.edu/~dunigan/mtnbike/rich.html
..
..Pete
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

Pete
May 27th 04, 04:55 PM
"Mike Vandeman" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 27 May 2004 03:42:10 GMT, "Pete" > wrote:
>
> .
> ."Mike Vandeman" > wrote
> .>
> .> National parks are closed to mountain biking.
> .
> .Liar
>
> In general, mational parks are closed to mountain biking. You may have
found the
> regulations on mountain biking.

No. I found specific references to mountain biking being allowed in several
National Parks.

So you admit your blanket statement of "National parks are closed to
mountain biking" is a lie?

Pete

>
> .google for "national park"+"mountain bike" reveals:
> .
> .Haleakala National Park
> .Joshua Tree National Park
> .Zion National Park
> .Great Smoky Mountains National Park
> .Arches National Park
> .
> .All refer to/allow mountain biking in one form or another. There are
others.
> .One park, GSM, specifically and explicitly states: "Bicycles are
prohibited
> .on park trails, with four exceptions."
> .http://www.cs.utk.edu/~dunigan/mtnbike/rich.html
> .
> .Pete

Mike Vandeman
May 28th 04, 05:38 AM
On Thu, 27 May 2004 15:55:33 GMT, "Pete" > wrote:

..
.."Mike Vandeman" > wrote in message
. ..
..> On Thu, 27 May 2004 03:42:10 GMT, "Pete" > wrote:
..>
..> .
..> ."Mike Vandeman" > wrote
..> .>
..> .> National parks are closed to mountain biking.
..> .
..> .Liar
..>
..> In general, mational parks are closed to mountain biking. You may have
..found the
..> regulations on mountain biking.
..
..No. I found specific references to mountain biking being allowed in several
..National Parks.

You didn't read carefully. Most of those "trails" are actually just dirt roads,
in some cases shared with SUVs. I think there is only ONE possible singletrack
mountain biking trail in all of the National Park System.

..So you admit your blanket statement of "National parks are closed to
..mountain biking" is a lie?

No, in general, it is a fact.

..Pete
..
..>
..> .google for "national park"+"mountain bike" reveals:
..> .
..> .Haleakala National Park
..> .Joshua Tree National Park
..> .Zion National Park
..> .Great Smoky Mountains National Park
..> .Arches National Park
..> .
..> .All refer to/allow mountain biking in one form or another. There are
..others.
..> .One park, GSM, specifically and explicitly states: "Bicycles are
..prohibited
..> .on park trails, with four exceptions."
..> .http://www.cs.utk.edu/~dunigan/mtnbike/rich.html
..> .
..> .Pete
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

Pete
May 28th 04, 06:29 AM
"Mike Vandeman" > wrote

>
> .So you admit your blanket statement of "National parks are closed to
> .mountain biking" is a lie?
>
> No, in general, it is a fact.

Now THAT'S an oxymoron!

Pete

Reco Diver
May 28th 04, 04:41 PM
Mike Vandeman > wrote in message >...
> On Thu, 27 May 2004 15:55:33 GMT, "Pete" > wrote:
>
> .
> ."Mike Vandeman" > wrote in message
> .. .
> .> On Thu, 27 May 2004 03:42:10 GMT, "Pete" > wrote:
> .>
> .> .
> .> ."Mike Vandeman" > wrote
> .> .>
> .> .> National parks are closed to mountain biking.
> .> .
> .> .Liar
> .>
> .> In general, mational parks are closed to mountain biking. You may have
> .found the
> .> regulations on mountain biking.
> .
> .No. I found specific references to mountain biking being allowed in several
> .National Parks.
>
> You didn't read carefully. Most of those "trails" are actually just dirt
> roads,in some cases shared with SUVs. I think there is only ONE possible
> singletrack mountain biking trail in all of the National Park System.


Yah know Doc, he might have you on this one. Really, it is a lie when
you know the truth but insist that the opposite is true. We covered
the "National Parks are closed to Mountain Biking," pretty well in
2000,2001,2002 and 2003. As it has been pointed out to you there are
at least 3 NPS units in California alone, that have "single track."
Then of course there is "the one dedicated single track" in Arizona,
and another unit in New Mexico (open on a limited basis).

Pete F had this snip addressed to you back in 2001
"Visitor Centers offer a free map (494K PDF) of the park's trails,
indicating which trails are designated for bike travel. Point Reyes
permits biking only outside of wilderness areas along emergency
access/dirt fire roads, paved roads and a few single-track trails."

In ~2000 Gt pointed out that REDW had several trails

In 2003, I pointed out that JOTR and SAGU both have trails open to
Mountain biking.

> .So you admit your blanket statement of "National parks are closed to
> .mountain biking" is a lie?
>
> No, in general, it is a fact.

You poor, poor, little man ... You know you are wrong and you still
try to wiggle out of it. You said "National parks are closed to
mountain biking." You know this isn't the truth, so you try redirect
the argument by saying, "Most of those "trails" are actually just dirt
roads,in some cases shared with SUVs." It is as if you are try to say
that it isn't mountian biking unless it is on single track. And
finally you try to redirect the argument by saying "I think there is
only ONE possible singletrack mountain biking trail in all of the
National Park System," which you also know is not true, since it has
been pointed out to repeatedly that there are several parks that allow
mountain biking on trails.


> .
> .>
> .> .google for "national park"+"mountain bike" reveals:
> .> .
> .> .Haleakala National Park
> .> .Joshua Tree National Park
> .> .Zion National Park
> .> .Great Smoky Mountains National Park
> .> .Arches National Park
> .> .
> .> .All refer to/allow mountain biking in one form or another. There are
> .others.
> .> .One park, GSM, specifically and explicitly states: "Bicycles are
> .prohibited
> .> .on park trails, with four exceptions."

Just as a side note ... Great Smoky Mountains National Park is GRSM
not GSM.

R

Mike Vandeman
May 29th 04, 03:50 AM
On 28 May 2004 08:41:03 -0700, (Reco Diver) wrote:

..Mike Vandeman > wrote in message >...
..> On Thu, 27 May 2004 15:55:33 GMT, "Pete" > wrote:
..>
..> .
..> ."Mike Vandeman" > wrote in message
..> .. .
..> .> On Thu, 27 May 2004 03:42:10 GMT, "Pete" > wrote:
..> .>
..> .> .
..> .> ."Mike Vandeman" > wrote
..> .> .>
..> .> .> National parks are closed to mountain biking.
..> .> .
..> .> .Liar
..> .>
..> .> In general, mational parks are closed to mountain biking. You may have
..> .found the
..> .> regulations on mountain biking.
..> .
..> .No. I found specific references to mountain biking being allowed in several
..> .National Parks.
..>
..> You didn't read carefully. Most of those "trails" are actually just dirt
..> roads,in some cases shared with SUVs. I think there is only ONE possible
..> singletrack mountain biking trail in all of the National Park System.
..
..
..Yah know Doc, he might have you on this one. Really, it is a lie when
..you know the truth but insist that the opposite is true. We covered
..the "National Parks are closed to Mountain Biking," pretty well in
..2000,2001,2002 and 2003. As it has been pointed out to you there are
..at least 3 NPS units in California alone, that have "single track."
..Then of course there is "the one dedicated single track" in Arizona,
..and another unit in New Mexico (open on a limited basis).
..
..Pete F had this snip addressed to you back in 2001
.."Visitor Centers offer a free map (494K PDF) of the park's trails,
..indicating which trails are designated for bike travel. Point Reyes
..permits biking only outside of wilderness areas along emergency
..access/dirt fire roads, paved roads and a few single-track trails."
..
..In ~2000 Gt pointed out that REDW had several trails
..
..In 2003, I pointed out that JOTR and SAGU both have trails open to
..Mountain biking.
..
..> .So you admit your blanket statement of "National parks are closed to
..> .mountain biking" is a lie?
..>
..> No, in general, it is a fact.
..
..You poor, poor, little man ... You know you are wrong and you still
..try to wiggle out of it. You said "National parks are closed to
..mountain biking."

Generally speaking, the National Parks ARE closed to mountain biking. I never
said "ALL National Parks ...", which would have been untrue. Learn to read....

You know this isn't the truth, so you try redirect
..the argument by saying, "Most of those "trails" are actually just dirt
..roads,in some cases shared with SUVs." It is as if you are try to say
..that it isn't mountian biking unless it is on single track. And
..finally you try to redirect the argument by saying "I think there is
..only ONE possible singletrack mountain biking trail in all of the
..National Park System," which you also know is not true, since it has
..been pointed out to repeatedly that there are several parks that allow
..mountain biking on trails.

BS. You forgot that I said "I think ...", which makes it true.

..> .> .google for "national park"+"mountain bike" reveals:
..> .> .
..> .> .Haleakala National Park
..> .> .Joshua Tree National Park
..> .> .Zion National Park
..> .> .Great Smoky Mountains National Park
..> .> .Arches National Park
..> .> .
..> .> .All refer to/allow mountain biking in one form or another. There are
..> .others.
..> .> .One park, GSM, specifically and explicitly states: "Bicycles are
..> .prohibited
..> .> .on park trails, with four exceptions."
..
..Just as a side note ... Great Smoky Mountains National Park is GRSM
..not GSM.
..
..R

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

Pete
May 29th 04, 06:26 AM
"Mike Vandeman" > wrote
>
> Generally speaking, the National Parks ARE closed to mountain biking. I
never
> said "ALL National Parks ...", which would have been untrue. Learn to
read....

Taken that way, your statement "National parks are closed to mountain
biking" is meaningless
One, some, most...who knows. As usual, you have said nothing

But you know what you implied....:) And were called on it.

Pete
In general, the sky is blue.

Reco Diver
May 29th 04, 07:04 AM
Mike Vandeman > wrote in message >...
> On 28 May 2004 08:41:03 -0700, (Reco Diver) wrote:
>
> .Mike Vandeman > wrote in message >...
> .> On Thu, 27 May 2004 15:55:33 GMT, "Pete" > wrote:
> .>
> .> .
> .> ."Mike Vandeman" > wrote in message
> .> .. .
> .> .> On Thu, 27 May 2004 03:42:10 GMT, "Pete" > wrote:
> .> .>
> .> .> .
> .> .> ."Mike Vandeman" > wrote
> .> .> .>
> .> .> .> National parks are closed to mountain biking.
> .> .> .
> .> .> .Liar
> .> .>
> .> .> In general, mational parks are closed to mountain biking. You may have
> .> .found the
> .> .> regulations on mountain biking.
> .> .
> .> .No. I found specific references to mountain biking being allowed in several
> .> .National Parks.
> .>
> .> You didn't read carefully. Most of those "trails" are actually just dirt
> .> roads,in some cases shared with SUVs. I think there is only ONE possible
> .> singletrack mountain biking trail in all of the National Park System.
> .
> .
> .Yah know Doc, he might have you on this one. Really, it is a lie when
> .you know the truth but insist that the opposite is true. We covered
> .the "National Parks are closed to Mountain Biking," pretty well in
> .2000,2001,2002 and 2003. As it has been pointed out to you there are
> .at least 3 NPS units in California alone, that have "single track."
> .Then of course there is "the one dedicated single track" in Arizona,
> .and another unit in New Mexico (open on a limited basis).
> .
> .Pete F had this snip addressed to you back in 2001
> ."Visitor Centers offer a free map (494K PDF) of the park's trails,
> .indicating which trails are designated for bike travel. Point Reyes
> .permits biking only outside of wilderness areas along emergency
> .access/dirt fire roads, paved roads and a few single-track trails."
> .
> .In ~2000 Gt pointed out that REDW had several trails
> .
> .In 2003, I pointed out that JOTR and SAGU both have trails open to
> .Mountain biking.
> .
> .> .So you admit your blanket statement of "National parks are closed to
> .> .mountain biking" is a lie?
> .>
> .> No, in general, it is a fact.
> .
> .You poor, poor, little man ... You know you are wrong and you still
> .try to wiggle out of it. You said "National parks are closed to
> .mountain biking."
>
> Generally speaking, the National Parks ARE closed to mountain biking.

There is no CFR prohibiting the use of mountain bikes in side of
National Parks. There are CFR's limiting the use to specific areas,
but that does not make a Park "closed" to the use of a mountain bike.

> I never
> said "ALL National Parks ...", which would have been untrue. Learn to read....

You said "National parks are closed to mountain biking." That
statement has no modifier. It is an inclusive statement.

> You know this isn't the truth, so you try redirect
> .the argument by saying, "Most of those "trails" are actually just dirt
> .roads,in some cases shared with SUVs." It is as if you are try to say
> .that it isn't mountian biking unless it is on single track. And
> .finally you try to redirect the argument by saying "I think there is
> .only ONE possible singletrack mountain biking trail in all of the
> .National Park System," which you also know is not true, since it has
> .been pointed out to repeatedly that there are several parks that allow
> .mountain biking on trails.
>
> BS. You forgot that I said "I think ...", which makes it true.

It does not make the statement true. Just because you believe it to be
true does not preclude the possibility that you were wrong. Are you so
afraid of being wrong doc?

What makes it a lie is not the fact that you "think" it to be the case
when it is not. What makes it a lie is that the number of trails that
are open to Mountain biking in the National Park system has been
repeatedly pointed out to you, you have even responded to the postings
by GT, Pete F, and others, and yet you say "I think there is only ONE
possible singletrack mountain biking trail in all of the National Park
System." You are either a liar, or you have a terrible memory.

<snip>

R

Mike Vandeman
May 29th 04, 04:06 PM
On 28 May 2004 23:04:36 -0700, (Reco Diver) wrote:

..Mike Vandeman > wrote in message >...
..> On 28 May 2004 08:41:03 -0700, (Reco Diver) wrote:
..>
..> .Mike Vandeman > wrote in message >...
..> .> On Thu, 27 May 2004 15:55:33 GMT, "Pete" > wrote:
..> .>
..> .> .
..> .> ."Mike Vandeman" > wrote in message
..> .> .. .
..> .> .> On Thu, 27 May 2004 03:42:10 GMT, "Pete" > wrote:
..> .> .>
..> .> .> .
..> .> .> ."Mike Vandeman" > wrote
..> .> .> .>
..> .> .> .> National parks are closed to mountain biking.
..> .> .> .
..> .> .> .Liar
..> .> .>
..> .> .> In general, mational parks are closed to mountain biking. You may have
..> .> .found the
..> .> .> regulations on mountain biking.
..> .> .
..> .> .No. I found specific references to mountain biking being allowed in several
..> .> .National Parks.
..> .>
..> .> You didn't read carefully. Most of those "trails" are actually just dirt
..> .> roads,in some cases shared with SUVs. I think there is only ONE possible
..> .> singletrack mountain biking trail in all of the National Park System.
..> .
..> .
..> .Yah know Doc, he might have you on this one. Really, it is a lie when
..> .you know the truth but insist that the opposite is true. We covered
..> .the "National Parks are closed to Mountain Biking," pretty well in
..> .2000,2001,2002 and 2003. As it has been pointed out to you there are
..> .at least 3 NPS units in California alone, that have "single track."
..> .Then of course there is "the one dedicated single track" in Arizona,
..> .and another unit in New Mexico (open on a limited basis).
..> .
..> .Pete F had this snip addressed to you back in 2001
..> ."Visitor Centers offer a free map (494K PDF) of the park's trails,
..> .indicating which trails are designated for bike travel. Point Reyes
..> .permits biking only outside of wilderness areas along emergency
..> .access/dirt fire roads, paved roads and a few single-track trails."
..> .
..> .In ~2000 Gt pointed out that REDW had several trails
..> .
..> .In 2003, I pointed out that JOTR and SAGU both have trails open to
..> .Mountain biking.
..> .
..> .> .So you admit your blanket statement of "National parks are closed to
..> .> .mountain biking" is a lie?
..> .>
..> .> No, in general, it is a fact.
..> .
..> .You poor, poor, little man ... You know you are wrong and you still
..> .try to wiggle out of it. You said "National parks are closed to
..> .mountain biking."
..>
..> Generally speaking, the National Parks ARE closed to mountain biking.
..
..There is no CFR prohibiting the use of mountain bikes in side of
..National Parks. There are CFR's limiting the use to specific areas,
..but that does not make a Park "closed" to the use of a mountain bike.

Can't you read??? I am talking about mountain biking, NOT "use of a mountain
bike". You are free to use your as a chair, if you like. DUH!

..> I never
..> said "ALL National Parks ...", which would have been untrue. Learn to read....
..
..You said "National parks are closed to mountain biking." That
..statement has no modifier. It is an inclusive statement.

Yes. It means the same as "In general, National parks are closed to mountain
biking."

..> You know this isn't the truth, so you try redirect
..> .the argument by saying, "Most of those "trails" are actually just dirt
..> .roads,in some cases shared with SUVs." It is as if you are try to say
..> .that it isn't mountian biking unless it is on single track. And
..> .finally you try to redirect the argument by saying "I think there is
..> .only ONE possible singletrack mountain biking trail in all of the
..> .National Park System," which you also know is not true, since it has
..> .been pointed out to repeatedly that there are several parks that allow
..> .mountain biking on trails.
..>
..> BS. You forgot that I said "I think ...", which makes it true.
..
..It does not make the statement true. Just because you believe it to be
..true does not preclude the possibility that you were wrong. Are you so
..afraid of being wrong doc?

If I say "I think ...", then it's true as long as I really think that,
REGARDLESS of whether what I think is a fact.

..What makes it a lie is not the fact that you "think" it to be the case
..when it is not. What makes it a lie is that the number of trails that
..are open to Mountain biking in the National Park system has been
..repeatedly pointed out to you, you have even responded to the postings
..by GT, Pete F, and others, and yet you say "I think there is only ONE
..possible singletrack mountain biking trail in all of the National Park
..System." You are either a liar, or you have a terrible memory.

It's still true.

..<snip>
..
..R

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

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