UCI Rules and TT Helmets

[Daniel Norton]

I'm trying to understand the UCI rules and can't figure out how the use
of TT aero helmets doesn't conflict with rule 1.3.033, "It shall be
forbidden to wear non-essential items of clothing or items designed to
reduce air resistance." (In English, that sentence is made vaguer by
the ambiguous usage of "or".)

What chapter am I missing?

Thanks.

--
Daniel

[Mark & Steven Bornfeld]

Daniel Norton wrote:
> I'm trying to understand the UCI rules and can't figure out how the use
> of TT aero helmets doesn't conflict with rule 1.3.033, "It shall be
> forbidden to wear non-essential items of clothing or items designed to
> reduce air resistance." (In English, that sentence is made vaguer by
> the ambiguous usage of "or".)
>
> What chapter am I missing?
>
> Thanks.
>
> --
> Daniel
>


Old subject. The device cannot exist SOLELY to reduce air resistance.
That is why Moser's disk wheel was eventually found legal, but wheel
covers were not--if the aero element is also a structural element, it is OK.
I remember once that the UCI disallowed a fairing on the saddle at the
TDF prologue. However, I believe aero seatposts are fine.
Yes, it's a silly rule, esp. since I'm reasonably sure TT aero helmets
aren't generally too protective. And no, let's not start another helmet
thread.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

[Dan Connelly]

Daniel Norton wrote:
> I'm trying to understand the UCI rules and can't figure out how the use
> of TT aero helmets doesn't conflict with rule 1.3.033, "It shall be
> forbidden to wear non-essential items of clothing or items designed to
> reduce air resistance." (In English, that sentence is made vaguer by
> the ambiguous usage of "or".)
>


Non-essential is key.

Dan

[Dan Connelly]

Mark & Steven Bornfeld wrote:

> Yes, it's a silly rule, esp. since I'm reasonably sure TT aero
> helmets aren't generally too protective. And no, let's not start
> another helmet thread.
>


This used to be the case, but now TT helmets must meet the same
requirements as road helmets.

Dan

[Geraard Spergen]

Mark & Steven Bornfeld wrote:


> I remember once that the UCI disallowed a fairing on the saddle at
> the TDF prologue. However, I believe aero seatposts are fine.

Fignon had a saddle that was rejected in 1989's TdF but it was less aero
than it was an additional contact point - it raised up in back so he
could push against it. Can't find a photo of it though.

[Mark VandenBerghe]

That wasn't Fignon, it was another Frenchman, Luc Leblanc?

Mark VandenBerghe


"Geraard Spergen" > wrote in message
...
> Mark & Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>
>
>> I remember once that the UCI disallowed a fairing on the saddle at
>> the TDF prologue. However, I believe aero seatposts are fine.
>
> Fignon had a saddle that was rejected in 1989's TdF but it was less aero
> than it was an additional contact point - it raised up in back so he could
> push against it. Can't find a photo of it though.

[[email protected]]

Mark VandenBerghe wrote:
> That wasn't Fignon, it was another Frenchman, Luc Leblanc?
>
> Mark VandenBerghe
>
>
> "Geraard Spergen" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Mark & Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> >
> >
> >> I remember once that the UCI disallowed a fairing on the saddle at
> >> the TDF prologue. However, I believe aero seatposts are fine.
> >
> > Fignon had a saddle that was rejected in 1989's TdF but it was less aero
> > than it was an additional contact point - it raised up in back so he could
> > push against it. Can't find a photo of it though.

it was around that time (systeme U/castorama days). i thought thirry
marie used it to win the prologue in 1990.

pics in your old winning magazines.

[Mark & Steven Bornfeld]

Dan Connelly wrote:

> Mark & Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>
>> Yes, it's a silly rule, esp. since I'm reasonably sure TT aero
>> helmets aren't generally too protective. And no, let's not start
>> another helmet thread.
>>
>
>
> This used to be the case, but now TT helmets must meet the same
> requirements as road helmets.
>
> Dan


Thanks--I didn't know that.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

[Mark & Steven Bornfeld]

wrote:

> Mark VandenBerghe wrote:
>
>>That wasn't Fignon, it was another Frenchman, Luc Leblanc?
>>
>>Mark VandenBerghe
>>
>>
>>"Geraard Spergen" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>Mark & Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I remember once that the UCI disallowed a fairing on the saddle at
>>>>the TDF prologue. However, I believe aero seatposts are fine.
>>>
>>>Fignon had a saddle that was rejected in 1989's TdF but it was less aero
>>>than it was an additional contact point - it raised up in back so he could
>>>push against it. Can't find a photo of it though.
>
>
> it was around that time (systeme U/castorama days). i thought thirry
> marie used it to win the prologue in 1990.
>
> pics in your old winning magazines.
>


I remember it being Thierry Marie whose seatpost fairing was
disallowed--I don't remember what year.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:00:51 -0800, Geraard Spergen
> wrote:

>Mark & Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>
>
>> I remember once that the UCI disallowed a fairing on the saddle at
>> the TDF prologue. However, I believe aero seatposts are fine.
>
>Fignon had a saddle that was rejected in 1989's TdF but it was less aero
>than it was an additional contact point - it raised up in back so he
>could push against it. Can't find a photo of it though.

Thierry Marie and Miguel Indurain used such a saddle in the Tour of
France.

--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> Mark VandenBerghe wrote:
> > That wasn't Fignon, it was another Frenchman, Luc Leblanc?
> >
> > Mark VandenBerghe
>
> > > Fignon had a saddle that was rejected in 1989's TdF but it was less aero
> > > than it was an additional contact point - it raised up in back so he could
> > > push against it. Can't find a photo of it though.
>
> it was around that time (systeme U/castorama days). i thought thirry
> marie used it to win the prologue in 1990.
>
> pics in your old winning magazines.

http://www.bikecult.com/works/saddle.html

Look most of the way down on the right hand side.
Luc Leblanc, Castorama, French champion's jersey,
Selle Italia aero-banana-chopper-seat.

The Selle San Marco Concor Sprint was a much milder
version
http://www.bikepro.com/products/saddles/marco.html
haven't seen one of those in quite a while.

Ben

[Howard Kveck]

In article <PzJbh.13569$7a2.10606@trndny06>,
Mark & Steven Bornfeld > wrote:

> Dan Connelly wrote:
>
> > Mark & Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> >
> >> Yes, it's a silly rule, esp. since I'm reasonably sure TT aero
> >> helmets aren't generally too protective. And no, let's not start
> >> another helmet thread.
> >>
> >
> >
> > This used to be the case, but now TT helmets must meet the same
> > requirements as road helmets.
> >
> > Dan
>
>
> Thanks--I didn't know that.

That's why the TT helmets are, for the most part, much bulkier than the used to
be. Some are still fairly sleek, but others are rather big. I seem to recall the
Giros are small but the ones that Rabo used are not.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

[Joe King]

http://www.bikecult.com/works/saddles/selleitalleblanc.JPG

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <RQGbh.13891$IW2.12958@trndny03>,
Mark & Steven Bornfeld > wrote:

> Daniel Norton wrote:
> > I'm trying to understand the UCI rules and can't figure out how the use
> > of TT aero helmets doesn't conflict with rule 1.3.033, "It shall be
> > forbidden to wear non-essential items of clothing or items designed to
> > reduce air resistance." (In English, that sentence is made vaguer by
> > the ambiguous usage of "or".)
> >
> > What chapter am I missing?
> >
> > Thanks.
>
> Old subject. The device cannot exist SOLELY to reduce air resistance.
> That is why Moser's disk wheel was eventually found legal, but wheel
> covers were not--if the aero element is also a structural element, it is OK.
> I remember once that the UCI disallowed a fairing on the saddle at the
> TDF prologue. However, I believe aero seatposts are fine.
> Yes, it's a silly rule, esp. since I'm reasonably sure TT aero helmets
> aren't generally too protective. And no, let's not start another helmet
> thread.

The rule on TT helmets has changed in the last few years, and they must
now be "approved" (have foam in 'em) helmets, just like the ones on
regular stages.

I suppose the theory was the previous "aero shell" designs were
permitted as helmets, just really bad ones. But then, helmets were not
mandatory in the pro peloton until very recently.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

[xzzy]

added info relating to this type of seat: in the late 80's some Time
Trialists were using "bondage belts" to effect the same result: pushing
harder on the downstroke.

Bondage belts were eventually disallowed. I can understand a discussion
that the device is a functional part of the bike and I can also understand
that the device has a purpose masquerading as something else. I can also
understand similar discussions regarding the saddle in this thread, aero
helmets, aero bars, and so on.

In about 1990, a vote to create a definition of a "standard bike -
effectively a mid-1980's bike" with the intent of lowering costs and
leveling the playing field to cyclists was unfortunately voted down because
it would reduce sales. I wish we could have got that item passed.

The grey area topic of this thread occurs because what is and what is not,
is sometimes decided by personal or political reasons rather than for the
best interests of cyclists.

"Joe King" > wrote in message
...
> http://www.bikecult.com/works/saddles/selleitalleblanc.JPG
>

[Carl Sundquist]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> wrote:
>>
>> > > Fignon had a saddle that was rejected in 1989's TdF but it was less
>> > > aero
>> > > than it was an additional contact point - it raised up in back so he
>> > > could
>> > > push against it. Can't find a photo of it though.
>>
>> it was around that time (systeme U/castorama days). i thought thirry
>> marie used it to win the prologue in 1990.
>>
>> pics in your old winning magazines.
>
> http://www.bikecult.com/works/saddle.html
>
> Look most of the way down on the right hand side.
> Luc Leblanc, Castorama, French champion's jersey,
> Selle Italia aero-banana-chopper-seat.
>
> The Selle San Marco Concor Sprint was a much milder
> version
> http://www.bikepro.com/products/saddles/marco.html
> haven't seen one of those in quite a while.
>

The saddle in the former picture was not only a "pusher" saddle, it had a
tapered, trailing fairing. Jacques Naubert used one when he attempted to set
the Canadian 4k record in 1990. He rode 4:38, but due to the fairing, I
don't know if it was ever ratified. The latter saddle you mentioned was
originally built for the the 1986 Italian TTT team, then put into
production. I don't know if it is technically illegal, but the
pedaling/taint-on-the-tip-of-the-seat-in a-TT-position has effectively
nullified the saddle with a back ledge because everybody rides the front of
the saddle in a TT, rather than push from the back of the saddle (that being
the pre-aerobar era). The same philosophy goes for the "sling" that Scott
made that had a sling that you could push back against and was tethered to a
braze-on on the top tube near the headset. Actually, I think the Italians
may have originated that one as well back 20 years ago, too.

[Bob Schwartz]

wrote:
> wrote:
>> Mark VandenBerghe wrote:
>>> That wasn't Fignon, it was another Frenchman, Luc Leblanc?
>>>
>>> Mark VandenBerghe
>>>> Fignon had a saddle that was rejected in 1989's TdF but it was less aero
>>>> than it was an additional contact point - it raised up in back so he could
>>>> push against it. Can't find a photo of it though.
>> it was around that time (systeme U/castorama days). i thought thirry
>> marie used it to win the prologue in 1990.
>>
>> pics in your old winning magazines.
>
> http://www.bikecult.com/works/saddle.html
>
> Look most of the way down on the right hand side.
> Luc Leblanc, Castorama, French champion's jersey,
> Selle Italia aero-banana-chopper-seat.
>
> The Selle San Marco Concor Sprint was a much milder
> version
> http://www.bikepro.com/products/saddles/marco.html
> haven't seen one of those in quite a while.
>
> Ben
>

The saddle that Marie used to win the 1986 prologue
was a full-on ass fairing with a tail. I couldn't
image google it so here is a screen capture:

http://www.cvccbike.com/pics/Cap001.jpg

Bob Schwartz