registration VS confiscation

[zen cycle]

Just looking comments on an incident that ocurred recently.

I was thinking about registering for a cyclocross race on Bikereg
recently, but decided against it due to timing of other obligations.
I noticed that the promoter was selling pint glasses, so I bought one -
through bike reg. I thought it peculiar that there were no other
mechanisms for shipping information, but since one must register at
bike reg with an address, I assumed that would be how it was handled.
Now I realize I used the dreaded 'assume', but hey, it was only $7, so
I wasn't real worried about it.
Over a month later, I realized, 'hey, I never got that pint glass'. So
I checked my credit card statement- sure enough, the charge was there.
So I emailed the promoter:

"To Whom It May Concern,
I purchased a Pint Glass from [your] Cyclocross race. The charge showed
up on my credit card, but I have not received the pint glass.
Please contact me with any information you may have reagarding this."

The reply I got from the promoter was unapologetic and cold.

" I did not promis to ship any glasses. I do have one or two left will
you be attending the Cross Nationals next weekend."
(spelling and grammer left intact from original message)

My replay was rather terse and ascerbic.

"So now I've paid for something, and you claim only to have one or two
left. Does this mean you gave mine away? I hate to tell you this, but
if we were talking about a more substantial amount of money, this
would constitute fraud.
Now you're telling me I have to make arrangements to meet you 90 miles

from my house in order to pick up a $7 item? Right, you'll be
wandering around the course all day and I have to hunt you down in a
sea of a few thousand other people."

Note that there was no diclaimer on bike reg stating that one had to go
to the race to get the glass.
Other than asking me to meet him at the race, he has made absolutely no
attempt to send me the glass, and until I sent the original message, he
made absolutely no attempt to contact me, yet evidently was more than
willing to keep the money. I need to state that this is not about a
measly $7 or a pint glass, it's about acting in good faith, doing the
right thing. The promoter/seller has since suggested that if I were to
post my feelings on the subject publicly, I would encounter a flood of
negative feedback. So I put to you, the vast brain trust in this forum.
Was i wrong to assume that I should have been shipped the glass? Was
the promoter remiss in making no attempts to complete the transaction
without my prompting him? What would your reaction be in the same
situation?

I shall post no further on this subject, and simply read your responses.

[[email protected]]

I'd say you're both to blame. You can never assume anything, HOWEVER,
the way reg is set up at bikereg, you don't really have an option to
add a lot of info to your reg. Also, the promoter should not have
assumed you would merely show up for a pint glass and should have had
the foresight to offer shipping or fix the oversight. IMO, sounds like
the promoter doesn't give a ****, though, and I'd just ask for my money
back. As a promoter, if someone doesn't pick up there prize money I
keep it, but if they contact me, I'll send it because that's me. Some
promoters won't.

If that fails, I'd contact Steve at Bikereg. He's a reasonable guy and
might be willing to help.

Good luck,
CH

[Michael Press]

In article
om>,
"zen cycle" > wrote:

Easiest to call the credit card company. Most likely
they will credit your account and take recovery upon
themselves.

--
Michael Press

[[email protected]]

if I was the promoter, I would never envision someone ordering a race
souvenir via Bikereg without planning to come to the race. It's
Bikereg not eBay. That there was no shipping charge should have been a
clue.

Also doesn't seem unreasonable to ask if you were coming to a race
where he would be. If you're a local racer ... then it seems a decent
shot you'd be there.

And then if you said, no, sorry I won't be there ... I'd see if we
could find a race where we'd both be. And if that didn't work I would
offer to send you a check. But after getting a nasty (IMHO) response
.... I'd tell you it's here if you want to drive to get it.

[catzz66]

I would not have ordered it if it was not clear how and about when I was
supposed to get it. The promoter should have been more clear though,
that it was like a race packet that you had to either pick up yourself
or arrange for someone else to do it for you.

[Bill C]

On Dec 13, 1:04 pm, "
> wrote:
> I'd say you're both to blame. You can never assume anything, HOWEVER,
> the way reg is set up at bikereg, you don't really have an option to
> add a lot of info to your reg. Also, the promoter should not have
> assumed you would merely show up for a pint glass and should have had
> the foresight to offer shipping or fix the oversight. IMO, sounds like
> the promoter doesn't give a ****, though, and I'd just ask for my money
> back. As a promoter, if someone doesn't pick up there prize money I
> keep it, but if they contact me, I'll send it because that's me. Some
> promoters won't.
>
> If that fails, I'd contact Steve at Bikereg. He's a reasonable guy and
> might be willing to help.
>
> Good luck,
> CH
I'm with you Chris, I don't know anyone who tries harder to make
things easier for, and tries to support racers more than Steve. I'm
totally partisan here because Steve's a good friend but he works his
ass off to make things right.
Bill C

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> I was thinking about registering for a cyclocross race on Bikereg
> recently, but decided against it due to timing of other obligations.
> I noticed that the promoter was selling pint glasses, so I bought one -
> through bike reg. I thought it peculiar that there were no other
> mechanisms for shipping information, but since one must register at
> bike reg with an address, I assumed that would be how it was handled.
> Now I realize I used the dreaded 'assume', but hey, it was only $7, so
> I wasn't real worried about it.

Not sure why you assumed they'd ship it to you; this sounds no different to
me than signing up for an organized ride (a Century) where you can order
jerseys ahead of time and pick them up there. And there's always a table set
up where people are doing exactly that. And no mention on the entry forms
I've seen of anything regarding shipping them; it's assume they're going to
be picked up at the event. I doubt anyone who can't make it to the event
complains that they shouldn't be charged something to ship the jersey to
them.

The main difference is that the pint glass is so inexpensive that it hardly
seems worthwhile to pay to have it shipped. Something ironic about that. A
more-expensive item and things might have been handled differently.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

[[email protected]]

Jay,

What the heck is wrong with you?? Have you ever promoted at race or
helped build the sport we all love to partake in? You admit you are a
dysfunctional group of "meatheads,
narcissists, posers, and assholes" and yet you attack and insult one of
the promoters of the the biggest best cross races in New England
(http://www.bikereg.com/Results/2006/10/29-Canton-Cup.asp) and the head
of a club that is responsible for hosting 2 MAJOR (growing to three in
2007-maybe if you didn't wreck it) USA cycling events a year as well as
countless training rides and organized events.

Some people wonder why cycling has not grown in the USA to the level
that is attained in other parts of the world, I would suggest that it
is due to a-holes (your own words) like you. Leave your attitude and
money grubbing inflammatory personality outside of the cycling world.
Todd offered to get you glass to a team mate and then to ship the it to
you and all you wanted to do was elevate and insult, all over $7. If
you re-read the emails you were first to elevate it to more then a
misunderstanding(I have appended original emails below). What is wrong
with you? Go promote a race or two and realize how much effort time
and money it takes and how little the financial reward is and then see
if you want to bitch moan and groan about a simple misunderstanding.

As to the very specific details of this transaction. After racing for
20+ years and using Bikereg since it started I have NEVER thought that
it was a "retail merchandise" web site. Nor have I ever seen people
use it as such. Additionally, I have purchased race merchandise with
my registration and I (and everyone else that does this) knows to pick
it up at the event. So how you thought it appropriate to flame, insult
and discourage Todd is far beyond my comprehension. As for your
comments that it is fraud - I disagree as the standard/norm for event
merchandise has always been to pick it up at the event. Just because
you assumed something (and forgot, I guess, since you didn't realize it
till you got your CC statement - maybe you were planning on attending
then didn't??) that was contrary to the accepted norm, you pick up
event merchandise at the event, does not make it fraud. It does
however show that you are unreasonable.

For disclosure I am on NAV and have read all the emails between the two
of you (appended below) and what started as a simple misunderstanding
has turned truly ugly, at your hands/insistence, and you should be
ashamed of your actions/emails. You may well have just eliminated one
of the best cross races in NE. All over a $7 and an assumption on your
behalf that was wrong.

Personally I would like to see you not partake in any cycling events in
the future as you have proved that you have no respect for the amount
of volunteer effort that gets given by race promoters and staff.
Please go away. I think I will put $7 in the mail to you personally so
that you can just stop destroying the sport I love.

Jeff Kellogg

[[email protected]]

There is also a discussion on
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/necyclocross/messages

New England Cyclocross

Jay,

What the heck is wrong with you?? Have you ever promoted at race or
helped build the sport we all love to partake in? You admit you are a
dysfunctional group of "meatheads,
narcissists, posers, and assholes" and yet you attack and insult one of
the promoters of the the biggest best cross races in New England
(http://www.bikereg.com/Results/2006/10/29-Canton-Cup.asp) and the head
of a club that is responsible for hosting 2 MAJOR (growing to three in
2007-maybe if you didn't wreck it) USA cycling events a year as well as
countless training rides and organized events.

Some people wonder why cycling has not grown in the USA to the level
that is attained in other parts of the world, I would suggest that it
is due to a-holes (your own words) like you. Leave your attitude and
money grubbing inflammatory personality outside of the cycling world.
Todd offered to get you glass to a team mate and then to ship the it to
you and all you wanted to do was elevate and insult, all over $7. If
you re-read the emails you were first to elevate it to more then a
misunderstanding(I have appended original emails below). What is wrong
with you? Go promote a race or two and realize how much effort time
and money it takes and how little the financial reward is and then see
if you want to bitch moan and groan about a simple misunderstanding.

As to the very specific details of this transaction. After racing for
20+ years and using Bikereg since it started I have NEVER thought that
it was a "retail merchandise" web site. Nor have I ever seen people
use it as such. Additionally, I have purchased race merchandise with
my registration and I (and everyone else that does this) knows to pick
it up at the event. So how you thought it appropriate to flame, insult
and discourage Todd is far beyond my comprehension. As for your
comments that it is fraud - I disagree as the standard/norm for event
merchandise has always been to pick it up at the event. Just because
you assumed something (and forgot, I guess, since you didn't realize it
till you got your CC statement - maybe you were planning on attending
then didn't??) that was contrary to the accepted norm, you pick up
event merchandise at the event, does not make it fraud. It does
however show that you are unreasonable.

For disclosure I am on NAV and have read all the emails between the two
of you (appended below) and what started as a simple misunderstanding
has turned truly ugly, at your hands/insistence, and you should be
ashamed of your actions/emails. You may well have just eliminated one
of the best cross races in NE. All over a $7 and an assumption on your
behalf that was wrong.

Personally I would like to see you not partake in any cycling events in
the future as you have proved that you have no respect for the amount
of volunteer effort that gets given by race promoters and staff.
Please go away. I have put $7 in the mail to you personally so that
you can just stop destroying the sport I love.

Jeff Kellogg


"R. Todd Crisafulli" > wrote:
Jay,

You have single handedly discouraged me from putting on bike races, I
will
probably just not bother with the Canton Cup next year.

You obviously have no idea how much work goes into putting on a quality
event and I am glad I do not belong to your club.

I am posting this email trail to the necyclocross list. Maybe it will
spark
some entertaining discussion over the winter.

I owe you 7 dollars or a pint glass.

Happy Holidays,

Todd

-----Original Message-----
From: ]
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 8:39 AM
To:
Cc: ; ;
;
; ; ;
; ;
;
; ;
; ;
; ; ;
;
Subject: RE: pint glass

Ok, I've included a few teammates in the CC, just so you can understand
the
dynamic that exists within BOB. Yes, I race with a combination of
meatheads,
narcissists, posers, and assholes. Most exhibit more than two of the
previously mentioned characteristics, including me. There have been
incidents of my teammates assaulting each other on and off the bike,
and
chasing each other down when one is in a break. We have nicknamed
ourselves
"the Island of Misfit Toys". In fact, if you look me up on bike reg,
you
will se that as my team of record, much to the chagrin of Eric Marro.
Eric
berates me for drinking too much and coming to races hung over, and I
berate
him for never loving anyone with out two wheels. It's how we work. The
comment below would garner no more than shrug from anyone on my team
save an
exceptionally select few.

on to marketing: I'll take the challenge of posting my opinion on
rec.bike.racing to see just how far off base I am. It's a google group
so
you can read without joining, or you can participate. I'm willing to be
I
won't get anymore than 'buyer beware' advice. I stick with my position
that
selling merchandise on-line in any forum defaults to the item being
shipped
unless otherwise specified.

I had sincerely hoped that my last message to you would have resulted
in no
less than an 'ok' and IMO hopefully a 'yeah, we're good' since that's
how I
closed the message. However, it seems you still don't get it.
Simply because you didn't say you were going to ship the glass doesn't
imply
you weren't. Not only that, but I bought something from you in good
faith
and YOU MADE NO ATTEMPT WHATSOEVER TO DELIVER THE PRODUCT.
Did you not have a record that I bought the glass? did you not keep
track of
how many were sold on-line? That's incredibly poor organization on your
part. Again, I was willing to let this go with my last message.
I offer to let you not worry about getting the merchandise to me and
keep
the money as a donation. You're damn lucky I haven't reported the
incident
to my credit card company.

Let it go.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: R. Todd Crisafulli ]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 12:22 AM
> To: Jay Carrington
> Subject: RE: pint glass
>
> Hi Jay,
>
> Do you know Eric Marrow (BOB)? My guess is he will be there and I
> will run into him. Let me know if this works.
>
> Also I bet your team mates would not appriciate your comments below, I
> am a big fan of the racing seen around here and it is a tight
> community, that is why I will go out of my way to make sure I solve
> this issue for you.
>
> But my guess is if your last email and this one was made public to the
> cycling community you might find that your position on both my
> handling of merchandise on bike reg vs your expectations and the way
> you speak about your team mates would generate lots of negative feed
> back.
>
> Email is especially dangerous because it is so easily forwarded and
> you never know who you might offend.
>
> Also we donate most of the proceeds of the Canton Cup each year to the
> Massachusetts Wheel Chair Athletic Association.
>
> And once again you where not shopping online, you where at the Canton
> Cup Race Registration page purchasing event merchendise?
>
> Todd
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 8:55 AM
> To:
> Subject: RE: pint glass
>
> Todd,
> Yes, I did interpret your comment about shipping as a tone of
> arrogance.
> I understand that Bike reg is not a standard on-line retailer, but you
> do need to register with your address, so that information is
> available.
> I assumed that was how it would be handled, and as a teammate of mine
> commented, having to travel to pick up merchandise that you purchased
> on-line kind of defeats the purpose of shopping on-line.
>
> Don't worry about shipping the glass. Consider the $7 a donation to
> your club. Trust me when I tell you I waste way more than that on a
> weekly basis on other things. Like I said it was never about the money
> of the merchandise. I can't make nationals and I can't expect any of
> the meatheads on my team
> (BOB) to do more than show up for the race on time, let alone find you
> and bring the glass home intact.
>
> I'm good if you are. Take care
>
> J
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: R. Todd Crisafulli ]
> > Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 10:54 PM
> > To: Jay Carrington
> > Subject: RE: pint glass
> >
> > Hi Jay,
> >
> > I am sorry to upset you so much, I was trying to be helpful when I
> > asked if you going to be at Nationals so I could bring the glass.
> > Each year I learn at least one lesson, and this year I
> learned that I
> > can not assume that people will go to bike reg to actualy
> register for
> > the race. I am a little flored at how up set you are, bike
> reg is not
> > a standard shopping cart that you go and purchase and item
> from, it's
> > main funtion is to register for bike races, so I just assumed that
> > people going there would be registering for the race, and I
> would save
> > a little time and alow people to purchase a glass at the time of
> > registration.
> >
> > I am sorry about my shipping comment in my last email I
> guess it was
> > read and interpeded in a deferent tone then I inteded, but
> I did not
> > give any shipping instructions or ask for a shipping
> charge. It would
> > cost me more then the cost of the glass to ship it, plus
> time to pack
> > and bring to ups or the post office which are out my way.
> >
> > I am willing to ship you the glass to resolve this issue.
> > Please send me your mailling address and I will send it along next
> > week.
> >
> > Next year I will be sure to include clear instructions if I add any
> > merchendice to bike reg.
> >
> >
> > Todd
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ]
> > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 8:33 AM
> > To:
> > Subject: RE: pint glass
> >
> > Todd,
> > No, I didn't attend the race, I didn't register. I also
> don't remember
> > reading that I had to go there and get it. It would have
> been nice if
> > there was a disclaimer saying that you would _not_ ship the
> glass. How
> > would you like it if you bought something on line, never
> got it, then
> > the person that sold it said 'hey, I never said I was going to ship
> > it, you have to come get it.' Yes, when you buy something
> on-line you
> > assume the item will be shipped unless it's stated otherwise.
> > So now I've paid for something, and you claim only to have
> one or two
> > left. Does this mean you gave mine away? I hate to tell you
> this, but
> > if we were talking about a more substantial amount of money, this
> > would constitute fraud.
> > Now you're telling me I have to make arrangements to meet
> you 90 miles
> > from my house in order to pick up a $7 item? Right, you'll be
> > wandering around the course all day and I have to hunt you
> down in a
> > sea of a few thousand other people.
> >
> > I bought the glass because I've attended the past four
> editions of the
> > race, and wanted to support it even though I wasn't going
> to be able
> > to attend this year. Had I known you weren't going to ship
> it I would
> > have asked a friend to pick it up. I think after this
> incident, I will
> > not support any NAV events, and will council my teammates to do
> > likewise.
> > Keep the 7 bucks. Choke on the glass.
> >
> > FWIW, We're only talking $7 bucks over a stupid pint glass.
> > The money and the product are _not_ the issue. The issue is the
> > integrity, rather, the lack thereof, of your response to what I
> > considered a good-faith action on my part. If losing
> > $7 is the worst thing that happens to me today, I'm doing
> pretty good.
> > Your ineptitude is another matter entirely.
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: R. Todd Crisafulli ]
> > > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 12:40 AM
> > > To: Jay Carrington
> > > Subject: RE: pint glass
> > >
> > > Hi J,
> > >
> > > Did you attend the race?
> > >
> > > I did not promis to ship any glasses. I do have one or two
> > left will
> > > you be attending the Cross Nationals next weekend.
> > >
> > > You could pick one up from me there.
> > >
> > >
> > > Todd
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: ]
> > > Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 10:46 AM
> > > To:
> > > Subject: pint glass
> > >
> > > EVENT NAME: 2006 Canton Cup Cyclo-Cross Race. (NEBRA)
> > >
> > > To Whom It May Concern,
> > > I purchased a Pint Glass from the promoter of the Canton Cup
> > > Cyclocross race. The charge showed up on my credit card,
> but I have
> > > not received the pint glass.
> > >
> > > Please contact me with any information you may have
> reagarding this.
> > >
> > > J
> > >
> > > -------------------------------------------------
> > > This message was sent as a service to customers of BikeReg.com.
> > > Please notify with any abuse of the
> > service. Thank
> > > You.
> > > -------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

[Ewoud Dronkert]

On 13 Dec 2006 08:50:10 -0800, zen cycle wrote:
> So I put to you, the vast brain trust in this forum.

You're both morons.

--
E. Dronkert

[zen cycle]

Thanks to all the objective comments I received (Jeff Kellogs flaming
rant not withstanding, interesting since this had no effect on him
whatsoever). It is clear my assumption that the product was to be
shipped was naively erroneous on my part. I shall live and learn from
it.


zen cycle wrote:
> Just looking comments on an incident that ocurred recently.
>
> I was thinking about registering for a cyclocross race on Bikereg
> recently, but decided against it due to timing of other obligations.
> I noticed that the promoter was selling pint glasses, so I bought one -
> through bike reg. I thought it peculiar that there were no other
> mechanisms for shipping information, but since one must register at
> bike reg with an address, I assumed that would be how it was handled.
> Now I realize I used the dreaded 'assume', but hey, it was only $7, so
> I wasn't real worried about it.
> Over a month later, I realized, 'hey, I never got that pint glass'. So
> I checked my credit card statement- sure enough, the charge was there.
> So I emailed the promoter:
>
> "To Whom It May Concern,
> I purchased a Pint Glass from [your] Cyclocross race. The charge showed
> up on my credit card, but I have not received the pint glass.
> Please contact me with any information you may have reagarding this."
>
> The reply I got from the promoter was unapologetic and cold.
>
> " I did not promis to ship any glasses. I do have one or two left will
> you be attending the Cross Nationals next weekend."
> (spelling and grammer left intact from original message)
>
> My replay was rather terse and ascerbic.
>
> "So now I've paid for something, and you claim only to have one or two
> left. Does this mean you gave mine away? I hate to tell you this, but
> if we were talking about a more substantial amount of money, this
> would constitute fraud.
> Now you're telling me I have to make arrangements to meet you 90 miles
>
> from my house in order to pick up a $7 item? Right, you'll be
> wandering around the course all day and I have to hunt you down in a
> sea of a few thousand other people."
>
> Note that there was no diclaimer on bike reg stating that one had to go
> to the race to get the glass.
> Other than asking me to meet him at the race, he has made absolutely no
> attempt to send me the glass, and until I sent the original message, he
> made absolutely no attempt to contact me, yet evidently was more than
> willing to keep the money. I need to state that this is not about a
> measly $7 or a pint glass, it's about acting in good faith, doing the
> right thing. The promoter/seller has since suggested that if I were to
> post my feelings on the subject publicly, I would encounter a flood of
> negative feedback. So I put to you, the vast brain trust in this forum.
> Was i wrong to assume that I should have been shipped the glass? Was
> the promoter remiss in making no attempts to complete the transaction
> without my prompting him? What would your reaction be in the same
> situation?
>
> I shall post no further on this subject, and simply read your responses.