What software to use? Race Management and or RFID

[Peter]

Hi,

We have a small cycle club with 270 members and average 75 riders to a
race each weekend. Any suggestions for software that takes the time
consuming headache out of producing results, and maintaining membership
information.

Also any experience with club level RFID results based software.

Regards

Peter

[[email protected]]

Peter wrote:
> Hi,
>
> We have a small cycle club with 270 members and average 75 riders to a
> race each weekend. Any suggestions for software that takes the time
> consuming headache out of producing results, and maintaining membership
> information.
>
> Also any experience with club level RFID results based software.
>
> Regards
>
> Peter

I'd be interested to hear what you come up with, this is an ongoing
problem where I'm from and any system depends strongly on the skill of
the operators. My guess is you're looking for something easy and
economical for these smaller events.

What you need is really going to depend what kind of events you do.
Mass start road races require a person to visually judge the finish or
have a finish line camera to resolve sprint finishes.

The chip systems I've looked into are too expensive and cumbersome for
the number of riders you're looking at.

I've had some luck using a digital video camera with video capture
software and playback. This is a compromise, but much cheaper than a
proper finish line camera. I can elaborate on our setup if you are
interested.

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article om>,
" > wrote:

> Peter wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > We have a small cycle club with 270 members and average 75 riders to a
> > race each weekend. Any suggestions for software that takes the time
> > consuming headache out of producing results, and maintaining membership
> > information.
> >
> > Also any experience with club level RFID results based software.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Peter
>
> I'd be interested to hear what you come up with, this is an ongoing
> problem where I'm from and any system depends strongly on the skill of
> the operators. My guess is you're looking for something easy and
> economical for these smaller events.
>
> What you need is really going to depend what kind of events you do.
> Mass start road races require a person to visually judge the finish or
> have a finish line camera to resolve sprint finishes.
>
> The chip systems I've looked into are too expensive and cumbersome for
> the number of riders you're looking at.
>
> I've had some luck using a digital video camera with video capture
> software and playback. This is a compromise, but much cheaper than a
> proper finish line camera. I can elaborate on our setup if you are
> interested.

Amit: do tell. I think this would be of general interest to the group,
and of specific interest to me, despite the utter lack of discussion of
doping or body paint.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

[Davey Crockett]

"Peter" > writes:

> Hi,
>
> We have a small cycle club with 270 members and average 75 riders to a
> race each weekend. Any suggestions for software that takes the time
> consuming headache out of producing results, and maintaining membership
> information.
>
> Also any experience with club level RFID results based software.
>
> Regards
>
> Peter
>

MySQL

--
Le vent à Dos
Davey Crockett [No 4Q to reply]
X-Shakespeare: "The dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns." -- Hamlet, III.1

[Peter]

Davey Crockett wrote:

> MySQL

Thanks Davey, except I need a completed solution not an empty database.

[Davey Crockett]

"Peter" > writes:

> Davey Crockett wrote:
>
> > MySQL
>
> Thanks Davey, except I need a completed solution not an empty database.
>

five or six hours with a text editor and c/c++ will give you q GUI to
do whatever you require

BTW, MySQL isn't a database, merely an interface to a database

--
Regards, Davey
"I grieve more for what was lost at Appomattox than I rejoice at what
was gained at Waterloo."
-- Lord Acton who saw clearly what many American professors of history
do not: that the defeat of the South was the end of America's
experiment in liberty and self-government and a conscious choice to
emulate the central governments of Europe.

[[email protected]]

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> Amit: do tell. I think this would be of general interest to the group,
> and of specific interest to me, despite the utter lack of discussion of
> doping or body paint.

this was my reply to peter to e-mailed me directly.
------------------------
I have used a consumer digitial video (DV) and a laptop computer to
capture the video. You could have a workable setup for around
$1000-2000.

-I used firewire to capture, a firewire card is about $30 if your
laptop doesn't have one, usb will be too slow
-clear out a large block of HD space and de-fragment your drive
-I use WinDV (free software) to capture the video
-I use VLC (also free) to view it, though virtual dub (also free)
might also work well

before using
-use the highest shutter speed possible
-set the white balance with a sheet of white card covering the entire
field of view
-fix the focus to the center of the field of view if you can
-try to have he riders place numbers so they are visible to the camera
and make sure the numbers have plenty of whitespace

-the camera output will probably be interlaced, uninterlacing with VLC
makes the numbers more legible, buying a cam which produces
uninterlaced output would be ideal
-ideally you have all the riders with their numbers pre-entered into a
database (excel) and you can simply enter the finishing order and the
name and other info for the rider are retrieved automatically to
produce the results
-you will need a printer if you plan to post the results on site

This all assumes you have someone technically proficient and bike
racing savvy enough to pull this off every race and that you have
electricity at the finish line (running camera and laptop off battery
is taking a chance).

That said, we run a weekly training criterium series where fields are
70-90 riders and I simply judge the finish by eye by reading the
numbers into a tape recorder as riders cross the line and only report
the top ten. Sometimes I can even get the complete finish order this
way.

I don't have the time/manpower to do more than that.

When we need a good results system for bigger races we hire a
timekeeper who uses a proper finish line camera and we typically pay
$600 for his services.

I have looked into chip timing systems, and the cost of a system is
too high for the numbers we have, and most of the systems are not
ideal for cycling - the gates might be too narrow and they can't
resolve a sprint finish.

-------------------------------------

i don't have much to say about how to organize the info and there is a
lot more to be said about how to optimize the results system.

[[email protected]]

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> " > wrote:
>
> > > We have a small cycle club with 270 members and average 75 riders to a
> > > race each weekend. Any suggestions for software that takes the time
> > > consuming headache out of producing results, and maintaining membership
> > > information.
> > >
> > > Also any experience with club level RFID results based software.
> > >
> > > Regards
> >
> > What you need is really going to depend what kind of events you do.
> > Mass start road races require a person to visually judge the finish or
> > have a finish line camera to resolve sprint finishes.
>
> Amit: do tell. I think this would be of general interest to the group,
> and of specific interest to me, despite the utter lack of discussion of
> doping or body paint.

I don't have any experience with RFID (which doesn't seem workable
for picking sprints, at least not at an affordable level) or finish
line cameras. I used to help a friend do results for cyclocross
and MTB races, where picking the finish order is easier but you
have to keep track of each rider on every lap.

Picking the numbers of the finish order is just the start of the
process, then you have to process the results. We used laptops
running Excel (any spreadsheet would do) and entered the
rider numbers in a column on each lap. We also kept a tally
on paper. There are various notes you can add to deal with the
inevitable number that you miss or misread on one lap or the
Unreadable Number Guy. Then it is possible to use spreadsheet
formulas to compute the finish order and put lapped riders in
their proper places. At this point we would transfer the
spreadsheet to a second computer and computer 2 would
save, clean up and print the results while the next category
race started and computer 1 entered the numbers for that.

Having two or more people and two computers really helps,
also one person can handle the inevitable queries about
places and time gaps from the last category while the other
concentrates on getting the current race's numbers in.

The most annoying or time-consuming or mistake-prone
step is, I think, getting information off the registration sheets
and into the computer. Somebody's name or number or category
is always messed up.

We did these races in the back lot of nowhere and ran the
laptops and printer off a car + inverter, periodically starting
the car to avoid draining the battery. (Always save the
spreadsheet before starting the car!) You don't want to do
this on battery power.

There are pieces of software that people have written to do this,
although I think our chief results guru found that most of them
have limitations or don't really do exactly what you want.
It seems to me the problem is not so much the manipulation of data,
which any spreadsheet ought to be able to do; it's the data entry.

Ben

[Davey Crockett]

" > writes:

> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > " > wrote:
> >
> > > > We have a small cycle club with 270 members and average 75 riders to a
> > > > race each weekend. Any suggestions for software that takes the time
> > > > consuming headache out of producing results, and maintaining membership
> > > > information.
> > > >
> > > > Also any experience with club level RFID results based software.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > >
> > > What you need is really going to depend what kind of events you do.
> > > Mass start road races require a person to visually judge the finish or
> > > have a finish line camera to resolve sprint finishes.
> >
> > Amit: do tell. I think this would be of general interest to the group,
> > and of specific interest to me, despite the utter lack of discussion of
> > doping or body paint.
>
> I don't have any experience with RFID (which doesn't seem workable
> for picking sprints, at least not at an affordable level) or finish
> line cameras. I used to help a friend do results for cyclocross
> and MTB races, where picking the finish order is easier but you
> have to keep track of each rider on every lap.
>
> Picking the numbers of the finish order is just the start of the
> process, then you have to process the results. We used laptops
> running Excel (any spreadsheet would do) and entered the
> rider numbers in a column on each lap. We also kept a tally
> on paper. There are various notes you can add to deal with the
> inevitable number that you miss or misread on one lap or the
> Unreadable Number Guy. Then it is possible to use spreadsheet
> formulas to compute the finish order and put lapped riders in
> their proper places. At this point we would transfer the
> spreadsheet to a second computer and computer 2 would
> save, clean up and print the results while the next category
> race started and computer 1 entered the numbers for that.
>
> Having two or more people and two computers really helps,
> also one person can handle the inevitable queries about
> places and time gaps from the last category while the other
> concentrates on getting the current race's numbers in.
>
> The most annoying or time-consuming or mistake-prone
> step is, I think, getting information off the registration sheets
> and into the computer. Somebody's name or number or category
> is always messed up.
>
> We did these races in the back lot of nowhere and ran the
> laptops and printer off a car + inverter, periodically starting
> the car to avoid draining the battery. (Always save the
> spreadsheet before starting the car!) You don't want to do
> this on battery power.
>
> There are pieces of software that people have written to do this,
> although I think our chief results guru found that most of them
> have limitations or don't really do exactly what you want.
> It seems to me the problem is not so much the manipulation of data,
> which any spreadsheet ought to be able to do; it's the data entry.

Davey never noticed any GPL or Public Domain software projects to do
what you require

The storage, classification, and retrieval of the data from the race
really isn't rocket science and any reasonable Database Manager and/or
SQL [Sequential Query Language] flavour will do the job just fine

The ''Spreadsheet'' breed of software applications is too
'lightweight', unreliable and slow to be of very much use for any
event where results are critical and the ''unreliability coefficient''
increases exponentially as the race becomes longer, has more laps or
more stages

Where the bottleneck comes, and the data has a high probability of
corruption, is in the collection and input stages. Limiting factors
here are of course mostly, if not all, related to human frailties,
barring a catastrophic hardware event

Cutting a long story short, the Constipated Hacker solution works best
for events not having access to Industrial Strength hardware
configurations and software applications. [The Constipated Hacker
worked it out with Pencil and Paper, right?]

If anyone is interested from a Geek point of view, in taking it a step
further, you will find a report of a project earlier this year in
which Davey, through his LUG [Linux Users Group] played a small part,
focused on the 2006 Tour de Farce.

http://azurservers.com/bike/bike.xpdf

If any geeks in this NewsGroup are interested in LAPM
[Linux+Apache+PHP+MySQL] under IPv6,, further reading is included at

http://azurservers.com/bike/mysql.txt

--
Best Regards
U.S. military officials who oversee the Iraqi justice system said they
keep records of the number of Iraqis who have been executed since
Sept. 2005. But they could not immediately provide those figures.

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article m>,
" > wrote:

> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > " > wrote:
> >
> > > > We have a small cycle club with 270 members and average 75 riders to a
> > > > race each weekend. Any suggestions for software that takes the time
> > > > consuming headache out of producing results, and maintaining membership
> > > > information.
> > > >
> > > > Also any experience with club level RFID results based software.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > >
> > > What you need is really going to depend what kind of events you do.
> > > Mass start road races require a person to visually judge the finish or
> > > have a finish line camera to resolve sprint finishes.
> >
> > Amit: do tell. I think this would be of general interest to the group,
> > and of specific interest to me, despite the utter lack of discussion of
> > doping or body paint.
>
> I don't have any experience with RFID (which doesn't seem workable
> for picking sprints, at least not at an affordable level) or finish
> line cameras. I used to help a friend do results for cyclocross
> and MTB races, where picking the finish order is easier but you
> have to keep track of each rider on every lap.

I don't think anyone regards RFID as a sprint-finish solution: even in
the TdF, which uses stone-age bike-mounted pre-RFID-being-cool
transmitters to record finish line times and other checkpoint times,
doesn't try to use them for separating out sprints (that's for the
finish-cams).

What an RFID could be useful for is properly sorting out typical
short-lap races (ie, crits, cyclocross, maybe track). The current
"jogger chip" solutions are, to be blunt, overpriced, and not valuable
unless you have 20,000 joggers to sort out (and apparently, they
actually care about the finish times, even though everybody gets a
medal. >2km foot races are just rando rides with a chance of shin
splints).

Ahem. If you have a mid-week crit that sees multiple race groups on the
road at the same time, where lapping and even tracking the lead and tail
of each group's pack can be non-trivial, it could be useful.

With RFID systems coming out now, the push is to get costs down to
about a nickel per transmitter chip. In my estimation, any
semi-permanent (say, durable for a season) system for less than a buck a
chip would be easily affordable, as long as the reader was reasonable
and had enough range to work (some of the fancy ones now claim 100', and
RFID is all about dealing with "packages" in close proximity at
reasonably high sensor-passing speeds).

That said, I want to work with a camcorder-as-finish-cam this year, in
hopes of making our race picks a little easier, and I also have one more
plea: rather than render perfect discrimination, I think race results at
almost all levels would be helped by being more willing to call some
results a tie.

I admit that having a tie for something like "Road World Champion" would
suck, or even for the winner of the SFGP, but for things like individual
amateur races, individual stages, or races that are part of an overall
series, it's okay to call a tie sometimes.

I seem unusual in this sentiment, though. I still say that really close
finish two years ago (or was it last year?) in the TdF should have just
been called a tie and be done with it. The winner, by half a pixel....

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:12:00 GMT, Ryan Cousineau >
wrote:


>
>That said, I want to work with a camcorder-as-finish-cam this year, in
>hopes of making our race picks a little easier, and I also have one more
>plea: rather than render perfect discrimination, I think race results at
>almost all levels would be helped by being more willing to call some
>results a tie.
>
>I admit that having a tie for something like "Road World Champion" would
>suck, or even for the winner of the SFGP, but for things like individual
>amateur races, individual stages, or races that are part of an overall
>series, it's okay to call a tie sometimes.
>
>I seem unusual in this sentiment, though. I still say that really close
>finish two years ago (or was it last year?) in the TdF should have just
>been called a tie and be done with it. The winner, by half a pixel....

We had to call a tie in a race my club put on a few years ago. I was
one of the people who decided that, but frankly I wasn't satisfied.
Our camera wasn't in the right place, and the pickers who were in teh
right place were overruled by the prescense of the camera. SNAFU.

And then later I noticed that in the USCF rule book there is a
provision for a ride-off for a tie for first. That wouldn't have
worked in our case, but it worth knowing about.

I don't like the idea of tie for first, or a tie for any podium spot.
For the other placing, sure, but not for the win or the medals.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article >,
John Forrest Tomlinson > wrote:

> On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:12:00 GMT, Ryan Cousineau >
> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >That said, I want to work with a camcorder-as-finish-cam this year, in
> >hopes of making our race picks a little easier, and I also have one more
> >plea: rather than render perfect discrimination, I think race results at
> >almost all levels would be helped by being more willing to call some
> >results a tie.
> >
> >I admit that having a tie for something like "Road World Champion" would
> >suck, or even for the winner of the SFGP, but for things like individual
> >amateur races, individual stages, or races that are part of an overall
> >series, it's okay to call a tie sometimes.
> >
> >I seem unusual in this sentiment, though. I still say that really close
> >finish two years ago (or was it last year?) in the TdF should have just
> >been called a tie and be done with it. The winner, by half a pixel....
>
> We had to call a tie in a race my club put on a few years ago. I was
> one of the people who decided that, but frankly I wasn't satisfied.
> Our camera wasn't in the right place, and the pickers who were in teh
> right place were overruled by the prescense of the camera. SNAFU.
>
> And then later I noticed that in the USCF rule book there is a
> provision for a ride-off for a tie for first. That wouldn't have
> worked in our case, but it worth knowing about.
>
> I don't like the idea of tie for first, or a tie for any podium spot.
> For the other placing, sure, but not for the win or the medals.

Tell me more about a ride-off! Can it take place on a special BMX course
called Helltrack?

Personally, I think in a crit they should do 5 beer laps,

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

[[email protected]]

Davey Crockett wrote:
> " > writes:
>
> Davey never noticed any GPL or Public Domain software projects to do
> what you require

Me neither, though I have a vague memory of my friend trying
out some shareware application.

> The storage, classification, and retrieval of the data from the race
> really isn't rocket science and any reasonable Database Manager and/or
> SQL [Sequential Query Language] flavour will do the job just fine
>
> The ''Spreadsheet'' breed of software applications is too
> 'lightweight', unreliable and slow to be of very much use for any
> event where results are critical and the ''unreliability coefficient''
> increases exponentially as the race becomes longer, has more laps or
> more stages
>
> Where the bottleneck comes, and the data has a high probability of
> corruption, is in the collection and input stages. Limiting factors
> here are of course mostly, if not all, related to human frailties,
> barring a catastrophic hardware event
>
> Cutting a long story short, the Constipated Hacker solution works best
> for events not having access to Industrial Strength hardware
> configurations and software applications. [The Constipated Hacker
> worked it out with Pencil and Paper, right?]

Well, the OP was talking about a <300 person club and 75 people
at a race. I would not try to run Sea Otter on an Excel spreadsheet.
On the other hand, precisely because the input stage is the
most failure-prone part, having a familiar interface (like Excel,
or the Openoffice equivalent) for the scorers to use during the
race is helpful.

We always tried to have two people picking on each lap, one writing
the numbers on good old pen and paper and the other entering them
into the computer. The paper is more reliable against crashes
and oopses (and easier to get the time gaps written down on
the final lap); the computer makes it much easier to generate
quick results, and to get them up on the web the next day. Also
having two pickers helps with the "Was that 268 or 266 that just
went by?" problem, which happens all the time, especially when
four or five riders go through in a bunch.

For races like cyclocross and MTB where the bunch strings out,
having each lap's pickings in adjacent columns helps straighten
out problems. If you miss a rider, you can often figure out who
you missed by looking at the previous lap's numbers, and so on.

Ben

[[email protected]]

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

> And then later I noticed that in the USCF rule book there is a
> provision for a ride-off for a tie for first. That wouldn't have
> worked in our case, but it worth knowing about.

this is in the UCI rulebook as well. ties are decied by a 1km ride-off.

[[email protected]]

wrote:


> Well, the OP was talking about a <300 person club and 75 people
> at a race. I would not try to run Sea Otter on an Excel spreadsheet.
> On the other hand, precisely because the input stage is the
> most failure-prone part, having a familiar interface (like Excel,
> or the Openoffice equivalent) for the scorers to use during the
> race is helpful.

ideally the info for the riders is pre-entered into the database,
including bib numbers, which might be provided by the local federation
and at registration you make a start sheet based on who is entered.
usually we use the license number, but you could even have a bar code
system.

of course riders who aren't entered in the system will have to be
entered manually, but that should only be a few riders.

in the case of large events, you have a lot more cash and personnel at
your disposal, it's harder to get a workable system for smaller races.

[Mike Murray]

"Ryan Cousineau" > wrote:
"...I also have one more plea: rather than render perfect discrimination, I
think race results at almost all levels would be helped by being more
willing to call some results a tie.

I admit that having a tie for something like "Road World Champion" would
suck, or even for the winner of the SFGP, but for things like individual
amateur races, individual stages, or races that are part of an overall
series, it's okay to call a tie sometimes."

This past year at the Alpenrose Challenge we had to call a sprint heat as a
tie. We were judging with a Finishlynx camera and the 2 riders were exactly
even at the highest resolution.

Mike Murray

[Donald Munro]

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> Personally, I think in a crit they should do 5 beer laps,

Cheap or classy beer ? Loser gets to down a Miller Lite ?

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article >,
Donald Munro > wrote:

> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > Personally, I think in a crit they should do 5 beer laps,
>
> Cheap or classy beer ? Loser gets to down a Miller Lite ?

Unibroue sampler pack:

http://www.dirtragmag.com/print/article.php?ID=72&category=departments

Loser has to down a Steelback:

http://www.ratebeer.com/Brewers/Beer/Beer-Reviews-32779.htm

The thrill of victory, the agony of defeat,

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

[[email protected]]

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> In article >,
> Donald Munro > wrote:
>
> > Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > > Personally, I think in a crit they should do 5 beer laps,
> >
> > Cheap or classy beer ? Loser gets to down a Miller Lite ?
>
> Unibroue sampler pack:
>
> http://www.dirtragmag.com/print/article.php?ID=72&category=departments
>
> Loser has to down a Steelback:
>
> http://www.ratebeer.com/Brewers/Beer/Beer-Reviews-32779.htm
>
> The thrill of victory, the agony of defeat,
>

dumbass,

i pefer utility grade canadian beers but i haven't tried steelback yet.
it's owned by frank d'angelo of "cheetah" fame :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlL1vl601rk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV-GwkjmCs4

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article >,
" > wrote:

> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > In article >,
> > Donald Munro > wrote:
> >
> > > Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > > > Personally, I think in a crit they should do 5 beer laps,
> > >
> > > Cheap or classy beer ? Loser gets to down a Miller Lite ?
> >
> > Unibroue sampler pack:
> >
> > http://www.dirtragmag.com/print/article.php?ID=72&category=departments
> >
> > Loser has to down a Steelback:
> >
> > http://www.ratebeer.com/Brewers/Beer/Beer-Reviews-32779.htm
> >
> > The thrill of victory, the agony of defeat,
> >
>
> dumbass,
>
> i pefer utility grade canadian beers but i haven't tried steelback yet.
> it's owned by frank d'angelo of "cheetah" fame :

Ratebeer.com has several thousand listed, rated beers.

http://www.ratebeer.com/Ratings/TheWorstBeers.asp

Steelback Tango is currently rated the 6th-worst beer on the planet,
meaning it tastes worse than O'Douls, and the Coors and Pabst
dealcoholized beers. Actually, I think it's 5th, as the worst beer seems
to be a rating error.

Three other Steelback brews (one a malt liquor) are in the 50 worst list.

Sleeman is also fairly well represented,

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

[[email protected]]

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> In article >,
> " > wrote:
>
> > Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > > In article >,
> > > Donald Munro > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > > > > Personally, I think in a crit they should do 5 beer laps,
> > > >
> > > > Cheap or classy beer ? Loser gets to down a Miller Lite ?
> > >
> > > Unibroue sampler pack:
> > >
> > > http://www.dirtragmag.com/print/article.php?ID=72&category=departments
> > >
> > > Loser has to down a Steelback:
> > >
> > > http://www.ratebeer.com/Brewers/Beer/Beer-Reviews-32779.htm
> > >
> > > The thrill of victory, the agony of defeat,
> > >
> >
> > dumbass,
> >
> > i pefer utility grade canadian beers but i haven't tried steelback yet.
> > it's owned by frank d'angelo of "cheetah" fame :
>
> Ratebeer.com has several thousand listed, rated beers.
>
> http://www.ratebeer.com/Ratings/TheWorstBeers.asp
>
> Steelback Tango is currently rated the 6th-worst beer on the planet,
> meaning it tastes worse than O'Douls, and the Coors and Pabst
> dealcoholized beers. Actually, I think it's 5th, as the worst beer seems
> to be a rating error.
>
> Three other Steelback brews (one a malt liquor) are in the 50 worst list.
>
> Sleeman is also fairly well represented,

dumbass,

that's a useful site, except one thing i've noticed is that people tend
to rank beers that have a strong or unique taste highly. that is
horse****. a beer should be rated based on how you liked it after
having six of them, not just one.

also people are biased by the label. the star did a blind beer tasting
and one of the highest rated beers was blue light.

this summer i started making radlers - apparently they are made for
cycling :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radler

"The Radler ("cyclist") is a beverage consisting of a 50%/50% or
60%/40% mixture of lager beer and lemonade. It was invented by the
Munich gastronomer Franz Xaver Kugler in September 1922 when
approximately 13,000 cyclists visited his tavern. His beer started to
run out, so he cleverly mixed the remaining beer with lemonade and
pretended he created the Radler especially for the cyclists so that
they could drive home without the risk of falling off their bicycles. "

[Donald Munro]

wrote:
> this summer i started making radlers - apparently they are made for
> cycling :
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radler
>
> "The Radler ("cyclist") is a beverage consisting of a 50%/50% or
> 60%/40% mixture of lager beer and lemonade.

Dumbass,
I suspect you could be excommunicated from LIVE<B>DRUNK</B> for
committing such a sacrilege.

BTW is there a lite version that contains less calories ?

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article >,
Donald Munro > wrote:

> wrote:
> > this summer i started making radlers - apparently they are made for
> > cycling :
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radler
> >
> > "The Radler ("cyclist") is a beverage consisting of a 50%/50% or
> > 60%/40% mixture of lager beer and lemonade.
>
> Dumbass,
> I suspect you could be excommunicated from LIVE<B>DRUNK</B> for
> committing such a sacrilege.

Mm. Excommunicated...perhaps that would be excessive. LIVEDRUNK has to
admit to being intrigued by the concept of Radlers.

The important thing here is not so much how much you drink, but that you
drink. Volume is of secondary importance to the drinking itself.

LIVEDRUNK is a big-tent sort of organization. If diluting alcohol makes
more people into alcohol drinkers, then let a thousand Radlers be poured.

> BTW is there a lite version that contains less calories ?

Make the lemonade with sucralose or aspartame. Add a shot of espresso to
jumpstart your metabolism.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos