drug testing

[Bounty Bob]

You know with all this talk of dna databases and the
drug testing of riders. Do they drug test management
of the teams and UCI? Its about time they started
isn't it?

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article >,
Bounty Bob > wrote:

> You know with all this talk of dna databases and the
> drug testing of riders. Do they drug test management
> of the teams and UCI? Its about time they started
> isn't it?

It's self-evident that whatever they're taking, it's not
performance-enhancing.

legalize alcohol,

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

[Davey Crockett]

Bounty Bob > writes:

> You know with all this talk of dna databases and the
> drug testing of riders. Do they drug test management
> of the teams and UCI? Its about time they started
> isn't it?

No need to test them

Even Tyler's Tugboat can see those ******z are smoking bad Hash

--
http://costofwar.com/ - Merry Christmas
-
Every single empire in its official discourse has said that it is not
like all the others, that its circumstances are special, that it has a
mission to enlighten, civilize, bring order and democracy, and that it
uses force only as a last resort. And, sadder still, there always is a
chorus of willing intellectuals to say calming words about benign or
altruistic empires:
- Edward W. Said - "Orientalism 25 Years Later,"

[RonSonic]

On 24 Dec 2006 09:11:06 +0100, Davey Crockett >
wrote:

>Bounty Bob > writes:
>
>> You know with all this talk of dna databases and the
>> drug testing of riders. Do they drug test management
>> of the teams and UCI? Its about time they started
>> isn't it?
>
>No need to test them
>
>Even Tyler's Tugboat can see those ******z are smoking bad Hash

Lab tech's also get tested. Daily.

Ron

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> Lab tech's also get tested. Daily.

Seriously? What are they testing for? Certainly not competency. But I'm not
so concerned about the techs as I am their managers. I still haven't heard
about anyone getting fired or even reprimanded over incorrect labeling,
procedures not followed, and unsecured (open to the outside world) computer
systems.

I think if a drug lab is under suspicion of improper procedures, they should
lose their contract. Don't wait until it can be proven they've screwed up.
After all, shouldn't they be held to even higher standards than the riders?

I irony is that I'm fully supportive of the need to clean up cycling. It's
ridiculous that people are out there, apparently in large numbers, paying
big $$$ for illegal performance enhancements. But it's even more ridiculous
that little becomes of such things because we have so little confidence in
the media, the labs, and the courts. We need to step backward a bit, clean
up our act, nail the *******s who are guilty beyond reasonable doubt, and
stop going after people in cases where the data is even questionable. Going
after the questionable cases, when it's quite possible that the accused
actually is innocent, does great harm to the entire process. We need to nail
people solidly and without question. We need to make examples such that,
when riders are caught, they *know* someone's got the goods on them.

Which means we need a system that's going to let some people slip through
the cracks, but overall is going to result in more-professional workings in
the drug labs, fewer goof-ups, and, perhaps most of all, fewer opportunities
for the media to control the destiny of our major races just days before the
start.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


"RonSonic" >
wrote in message ...
> On 24 Dec 2006 09:11:06 +0100, Davey Crockett
> >
> wrote:
>
>>Bounty Bob > writes:
>>
>>> You know with all this talk of dna databases and the
>>> drug testing of riders. Do they drug test management
>>> of the teams and UCI? Its about time they started
>>> isn't it?
>>
>>No need to test them
>>
>>Even Tyler's Tugboat can see those ******z are smoking bad Hash
>
> Lab tech's also get tested. Daily.
>
> Ron

[nobody]

On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 20:09:38 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> wrote:

>> Lab tech's also get tested. Daily.
>
>Seriously? What are they testing for?

Hospital or patient care techs have to pass stringent competency tests.

It may be that the competency for 'non-medical treatment oriented' testing
has a lesser standard. I mean you blow the steroid test and nobody dies
(mostly). You blow the blood glucose and some patient could die.

Having said that, many labs go for six sigma and other hard to get
certifications that's even a step above that. That's usually GM practices
and this lab isn't manufacturing anything. There's also ISO-9000, ISO-1400
and so on.

If the lab is internationally used/known, it shouldn't be hard to find out.

If I was Floyd's lawyer I'd be looking into who certs them.

[MagillaGorilla]

nobody wrote:

> On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 20:09:38 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>>Lab tech's also get tested. Daily.
>>
>>Seriously? What are they testing for?
>
>
> Hospital or patient care techs have to pass stringent competency tests.
>
> It may be that the competency for 'non-medical treatment oriented' testing
> has a lesser standard. I mean you blow the steroid test and nobody dies
> (mostly). You blow the blood glucose and some patient could die.
>
> Having said that, many labs go for six sigma and other hard to get
> certifications that's even a step above that. That's usually GM practices
> and this lab isn't manufacturing anything. There's also ISO-9000, ISO-1400
> and so on.
>
> If the lab is internationally used/known, it shouldn't be hard to find out.
>
> If I was Floyd's lawyer I'd be looking into who certs them.
>
>


Yeah, people never die because of medical malpractice even though a
Harvard study published in JAMA said that medical malpractice kills over
10,000 patients a year.


Thanks,

Magilla

[nobody]

On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 00:28:35 -0500, MagillaGorilla >
wrote:

>nobody wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 20:09:38 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Lab tech's also get tested. Daily.
>>>
>>>Seriously? What are they testing for?
>>
>>
>> Hospital or patient care techs have to pass stringent competency tests.
>>
>> It may be that the competency for 'non-medical treatment oriented' testing
>> has a lesser standard. I mean you blow the steroid test and nobody dies
>> (mostly). You blow the blood glucose and some patient could die.
>>
>> Having said that, many labs go for six sigma and other hard to get
>> certifications that's even a step above that. That's usually GM practices
>> and this lab isn't manufacturing anything. There's also ISO-9000, ISO-1400
>> and so on.
>>
>> If the lab is internationally used/known, it shouldn't be hard to find out.
>>
>> If I was Floyd's lawyer I'd be looking into who certs them.
>>
>>
>
>
>Yeah, people never die because of medical malpractice even though a
>Harvard study published in JAMA said that medical malpractice kills over
>10,000 patients a year.
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>Magilla

Having never worked in a hospital, you're going by smell, right?

Try 98K. (NCC MERP statistic)

See, I didn't even have to call you a name. ;-)

Truth is it's probably really 10x that.

Majority is not lab. It's wrong meds, bad anesthesia. It's an art, not a
science after all. (semi-sarcastic).

[MagillaGorilla]

nobody wrote:

> On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 00:28:35 -0500, MagillaGorilla >
> wrote:
>
>
>>nobody wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 20:09:38 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Lab tech's also get tested. Daily.
>>>>
>>>>Seriously? What are they testing for?
>>>
>>>
>>>Hospital or patient care techs have to pass stringent competency tests.
>>>
>>>It may be that the competency for 'non-medical treatment oriented' testing
>>>has a lesser standard. I mean you blow the steroid test and nobody dies
>>>(mostly). You blow the blood glucose and some patient could die.
>>>
>>>Having said that, many labs go for six sigma and other hard to get
>>>certifications that's even a step above that. That's usually GM practices
>>>and this lab isn't manufacturing anything. There's also ISO-9000, ISO-1400
>>>and so on.
>>>
>>>If the lab is internationally used/known, it shouldn't be hard to find out.
>>>
>>>If I was Floyd's lawyer I'd be looking into who certs them.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>Yeah, people never die because of medical malpractice even though a
>>Harvard study published in JAMA said that medical malpractice kills over
>>10,000 patients a year.
>>
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Magilla
>
>
> Having never worked in a hospital, you're going by smell, right?
>
> Try 98K. (NCC MERP statistic)
>
> See, I didn't even have to call you a name. ;-)
>
> Truth is it's probably really 10x that.
>
> Majority is not lab. It's wrong meds, bad anesthesia. It's an art, not a
> science after all. (semi-sarcastic).


See, it's even worse than the conservative figure of 10,000 I threw out
there. So why should we hold WADA to a higher standard than real
hospitals?

Magilla

[nobody]

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 09:57:24 -0500, MagillaGorilla >
wrote:

>nobody wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 00:28:35 -0500, MagillaGorilla >
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>nobody wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 20:09:38 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>Lab tech's also get tested. Daily.
>>>>>
>>>>>Seriously? What are they testing for?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Hospital or patient care techs have to pass stringent competency tests.
>>>>
>>>>It may be that the competency for 'non-medical treatment oriented' testing
>>>>has a lesser standard. I mean you blow the steroid test and nobody dies
>>>>(mostly). You blow the blood glucose and some patient could die.
>>>>
>>>>Having said that, many labs go for six sigma and other hard to get
>>>>certifications that's even a step above that. That's usually GM practices
>>>>and this lab isn't manufacturing anything. There's also ISO-9000, ISO-1400
>>>>and so on.
>>>>
>>>>If the lab is internationally used/known, it shouldn't be hard to find out.
>>>>
>>>>If I was Floyd's lawyer I'd be looking into who certs them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Yeah, people never die because of medical malpractice even though a
>>>Harvard study published in JAMA said that medical malpractice kills over
>>>10,000 patients a year.
>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>
>>>Magilla
>>
>>
>> Having never worked in a hospital, you're going by smell, right?
>>
>> Try 98K. (NCC MERP statistic)
>>
>> See, I didn't even have to call you a name. ;-)
>>
>> Truth is it's probably really 10x that.
>>
>> Majority is not lab. It's wrong meds, bad anesthesia. It's an art, not a
>> science after all. (semi-sarcastic).
>
>
>See, it's even worse than the conservative figure of 10,000 I threw out
>there. So why should we hold WADA to a higher standard than real
>hospitals?
>
>Magilla

Medicine is an art. Lab work a science.

[Mark & Steven Bornfeld]

nobody wrote:

> On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 20:09:38 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>>Lab tech's also get tested. Daily.
>>
>>Seriously? What are they testing for?
>
>
> Hospital or patient care techs have to pass stringent competency tests.


I wonder. My guess is that a good hospital or lab will test, but I
wouldn't bet they go further than the law requires.
I don't know what it is in medical laboratory technology--or medicine,
for that matter.
But here is the competency testing I have passed as a dentist in NY State:
1) Successfully completed Part I and Part II of the National Board
Dental Exams in 1975 and 1976.
2) Successfully passed the the Northeast Regional Board (NERB) exam, 1976.
3) Required to take a 3-hour "infection control" course every 3 or 4 years.
4) One-time requirement to take a course in recognition and reporting of
suspected child abuse.
5) Every three years must attest to have taken 45 hours of approved
continuing education courses. I need not ordinarily provide
documentation unless specifically requested to; I choose the courses I
take and there is no requirement or minimum in any specific area.

As you can see, I've been basically unsupervised for 30 years. But it
may be much better in lab technology--after all, most aren't
self-employed, and I'm sure commercial labs would want to be very strict!!

Steve


>
> It may be that the competency for 'non-medical treatment oriented' testing
> has a lesser standard. I mean you blow the steroid test and nobody dies
> (mostly). You blow the blood glucose and some patient could die.
>
> Having said that, many labs go for six sigma and other hard to get
> certifications that's even a step above that. That's usually GM practices
> and this lab isn't manufacturing anything. There's also ISO-9000, ISO-1400
> and so on.
>
> If the lab is internationally used/known, it shouldn't be hard to find out.
>
> If I was Floyd's lawyer I'd be looking into who certs them.
>
>


--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

[Mark & Steven Bornfeld]

MagillaGorilla wrote:

> nobody wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 00:28:35 -0500, MagillaGorilla
>> >
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> nobody wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 20:09:38 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Lab tech's also get tested. Daily.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Seriously? What are they testing for?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hospital or patient care techs have to pass stringent competency tests.
>>>>
>>>> It may be that the competency for 'non-medical treatment oriented'
>>>> testing
>>>> has a lesser standard. I mean you blow the steroid test and nobody dies
>>>> (mostly). You blow the blood glucose and some patient could die.
>>>>
>>>> Having said that, many labs go for six sigma and other hard to get
>>>> certifications that's even a step above that. That's usually GM
>>>> practices
>>>> and this lab isn't manufacturing anything. There's also ISO-9000,
>>>> ISO-1400
>>>> and so on.
>>>>
>>>> If the lab is internationally used/known, it shouldn't be hard to
>>>> find out.
>>>>
>>>> If I was Floyd's lawyer I'd be looking into who certs them.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, people never die because of medical malpractice even though a
>>> Harvard study published in JAMA said that medical malpractice kills
>>> over 10,000 patients a year.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Magilla
>>
>>
>>
>> Having never worked in a hospital, you're going by smell, right?
>>
>> Try 98K. (NCC MERP statistic)
>>
>> See, I didn't even have to call you a name. ;-)
>>
>> Truth is it's probably really 10x that.
>>
>> Majority is not lab. It's wrong meds, bad anesthesia. It's an art, not a
>> science after all. (semi-sarcastic).
>
>
>
> See, it's even worse than the conservative figure of 10,000 I threw out
> there. So why should we hold WADA to a higher standard than real
> hospitals?
>
> Magilla


Could be much worse. Or not. Didn't know you had a pHD (saw that Andy
had mentioned it) and wonder what it is. Surely then, you know it
depends who's counting, and how.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

[Mark & Steven Bornfeld]

nobody wrote:

> On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 09:57:24 -0500, MagillaGorilla >
> wrote:
>
>
>>nobody wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 00:28:35 -0500, MagillaGorilla >
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>nobody wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 20:09:38 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>Lab tech's also get tested. Daily.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Seriously? What are they testing for?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Hospital or patient care techs have to pass stringent competency tests.
>>>>>
>>>>>It may be that the competency for 'non-medical treatment oriented' testing
>>>>>has a lesser standard. I mean you blow the steroid test and nobody dies
>>>>>(mostly). You blow the blood glucose and some patient could die.
>>>>>
>>>>>Having said that, many labs go for six sigma and other hard to get
>>>>>certifications that's even a step above that. That's usually GM practices
>>>>>and this lab isn't manufacturing anything. There's also ISO-9000, ISO-1400
>>>>>and so on.
>>>>>
>>>>>If the lab is internationally used/known, it shouldn't be hard to find out.
>>>>>
>>>>>If I was Floyd's lawyer I'd be looking into who certs them.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yeah, people never die because of medical malpractice even though a
>>>>Harvard study published in JAMA said that medical malpractice kills over
>>>>10,000 patients a year.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>Magilla
>>>
>>>
>>>Having never worked in a hospital, you're going by smell, right?
>>>
>>>Try 98K. (NCC MERP statistic)
>>>
>>>See, I didn't even have to call you a name. ;-)
>>>
>>>Truth is it's probably really 10x that.
>>>
>>>Majority is not lab. It's wrong meds, bad anesthesia. It's an art, not a
>>>science after all. (semi-sarcastic).
>>
>>
>>See, it's even worse than the conservative figure of 10,000 I threw out
>>there. So why should we hold WADA to a higher standard than real
>>hospitals?
>>
>>Magilla
>
>
> Medicine is an art. Lab work a science.
>


Ever hear of "massaging the numbers"?

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

[nobody]

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 18:25:47 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
> wrote:

>nobody wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 09:57:24 -0500, MagillaGorilla >
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>nobody wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 00:28:35 -0500, MagillaGorilla >
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>nobody wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 20:09:38 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Lab tech's also get tested. Daily.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Seriously? What are they testing for?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Hospital or patient care techs have to pass stringent competency tests.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It may be that the competency for 'non-medical treatment oriented' testing
>>>>>>has a lesser standard. I mean you blow the steroid test and nobody dies
>>>>>>(mostly). You blow the blood glucose and some patient could die.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Having said that, many labs go for six sigma and other hard to get
>>>>>>certifications that's even a step above that. That's usually GM practices
>>>>>>and this lab isn't manufacturing anything. There's also ISO-9000, ISO-1400
>>>>>>and so on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If the lab is internationally used/known, it shouldn't be hard to find out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If I was Floyd's lawyer I'd be looking into who certs them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Yeah, people never die because of medical malpractice even though a
>>>>>Harvard study published in JAMA said that medical malpractice kills over
>>>>>10,000 patients a year.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>>Magilla
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Having never worked in a hospital, you're going by smell, right?
>>>>
>>>>Try 98K. (NCC MERP statistic)
>>>>
>>>>See, I didn't even have to call you a name. ;-)
>>>>
>>>>Truth is it's probably really 10x that.
>>>>
>>>>Majority is not lab. It's wrong meds, bad anesthesia. It's an art, not a
>>>>science after all. (semi-sarcastic).
>>>
>>>
>>>See, it's even worse than the conservative figure of 10,000 I threw out
>>>there. So why should we hold WADA to a higher standard than real
>>>hospitals?
>>>
>>>Magilla
>>
>>
>> Medicine is an art. Lab work a science.
>>
>
>
> Ever hear of "massaging the numbers"?
>
>Steve

I've heard that if the MD causes the patient's demise on the OR table they
take them to the recovery room first and call the death there. That way
there's no tie up of OR facilities. "Next". ;-)

It's not uncommon for scientists to seriously fudge data for research
proposals, to make their data fit, to get new funding. Now and then there
are serious scandals. Often, rather than tarnish the School, they sweep it
under the rug. They'll fire whistle blowers before they trash a golden cow.

That's nothing new. However it's held to the scientific method in
principle. There's no such thing in the "practice of Medicine". There are
principled researchers and there are frauds. What are you going to do?

[nobody]

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 18:25:08 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
> wrote:

>
> Could be much worse. Or not. Didn't know you had a pHD (saw that Andy
>had mentioned it) and wonder what it is. Surely then, you know it
>depends who's counting, and how.
>
>Steve

Uh, Doc, it's PhD. pH is acid-base. LOL.

j/k

[Mark & Steven Bornfeld]

nobody wrote:

> On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 18:25:47 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
> > wrote:
>
>
>>nobody wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 09:57:24 -0500, MagillaGorilla >
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>nobody wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 00:28:35 -0500, MagillaGorilla >
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>nobody wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 20:09:38 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Lab tech's also get tested. Daily.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Seriously? What are they testing for?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hospital or patient care techs have to pass stringent competency tests.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It may be that the competency for 'non-medical treatment oriented' testing
>>>>>>>has a lesser standard. I mean you blow the steroid test and nobody dies
>>>>>>>(mostly). You blow the blood glucose and some patient could die.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Having said that, many labs go for six sigma and other hard to get
>>>>>>>certifications that's even a step above that. That's usually GM practices
>>>>>>>and this lab isn't manufacturing anything. There's also ISO-9000, ISO-1400
>>>>>>>and so on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If the lab is internationally used/known, it shouldn't be hard to find out.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If I was Floyd's lawyer I'd be looking into who certs them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Yeah, people never die because of medical malpractice even though a
>>>>>>Harvard study published in JAMA said that medical malpractice kills over
>>>>>>10,000 patients a year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Magilla
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Having never worked in a hospital, you're going by smell, right?
>>>>>
>>>>>Try 98K. (NCC MERP statistic)
>>>>>
>>>>>See, I didn't even have to call you a name. ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>>Truth is it's probably really 10x that.
>>>>>
>>>>>Majority is not lab. It's wrong meds, bad anesthesia. It's an art, not a
>>>>>science after all. (semi-sarcastic).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>See, it's even worse than the conservative figure of 10,000 I threw out
>>>>there. So why should we hold WADA to a higher standard than real
>>>>hospitals?
>>>>
>>>>Magilla
>>>
>>>
>>>Medicine is an art. Lab work a science.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Ever hear of "massaging the numbers"?
>>
>>Steve
>
>
> I've heard that if the MD causes the patient's demise on the OR table they
> take them to the recovery room first and call the death there. That way
> there's no tie up of OR facilities. "Next". ;-)
>
> It's not uncommon for scientists to seriously fudge data for research
> proposals, to make their data fit, to get new funding. Now and then there
> are serious scandals. Often, rather than tarnish the School, they sweep it
> under the rug. They'll fire whistle blowers before they trash a golden cow.
>
> That's nothing new. However it's held to the scientific method in
> principle. There's no such thing in the "practice of Medicine". There are
> principled researchers and there are frauds. What are you going to do?
>
>

Principle is a wonderful thing. ;-)
I have no magic answer, that's for sure. G White figures Darwin will
sort this all out, no regulation required. I guess we could wait for a
giant meteor, like the dinosaurs.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

[nobody]

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 18:23:12 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
> wrote:

>nobody wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 20:09:38 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Lab tech's also get tested. Daily.
>>>
>>>Seriously? What are they testing for?
>>
>>
>> Hospital or patient care techs have to pass stringent competency tests.
>
>
> I wonder. My guess is that a good hospital or lab will test, but I
>wouldn't bet they go further than the law requires.

It's not a guess. They test for competency twice a year, and every
six-months reference samples are sent out and scored. If you fail one, you
don't work there long. Don't know how it is in France.

> I don't know what it is in medical laboratory technology--or medicine,
>for that matter.
> But here is the competency testing I have passed as a dentist in NY State:
>1) Successfully completed Part I and Part II of the National Board
>Dental Exams in 1975 and 1976.
>2) Successfully passed the the Northeast Regional Board (NERB) exam, 1976.
>3) Required to take a 3-hour "infection control" course every 3 or 4 years.
>4) One-time requirement to take a course in recognition and reporting of
>suspected child abuse.
>5) Every three years must attest to have taken 45 hours of approved
>continuing education courses. I need not ordinarily provide
>documentation unless specifically requested to; I choose the courses I
>take and there is no requirement or minimum in any specific area.
>
> As you can see, I've been basically unsupervised for 30 years. But it
>may be much better in lab technology--after all, most aren't
>self-employed, and I'm sure commercial labs would want to be very strict!!

Don't you certify the sterilization of your equipment? Don't you have OSHA
visits? What kind of oversight? Just curious. Don't mean to put you on the
spot.

>Steve
>
>
>>
>> It may be that the competency for 'non-medical treatment oriented' testing
>> has a lesser standard. I mean you blow the steroid test and nobody dies
>> (mostly). You blow the blood glucose and some patient could die.
>>
>> Having said that, many labs go for six sigma and other hard to get
>> certifications that's even a step above that. That's usually GM practices
>> and this lab isn't manufacturing anything. There's also ISO-9000, ISO-1400
>> and so on.
>>
>> If the lab is internationally used/known, it shouldn't be hard to find out.
>>
>> If I was Floyd's lawyer I'd be looking into who certs them.
>>
>>

[Mark & Steven Bornfeld]

nobody wrote:

>
>
> It's not a guess. They test for competency twice a year, and every
> six-months reference samples are sent out and scored. If you fail one, you
> don't work there long. Don't know how it is in France.

Is this a state reg. or is this the facilities' prerogative?
>
>
>> I don't know what it is in medical laboratory technology--or medicine,
>>for that matter.
>> But here is the competency testing I have passed as a dentist in NY State:
>>1) Successfully completed Part I and Part II of the National Board
>>Dental Exams in 1975 and 1976.
>>2) Successfully passed the the Northeast Regional Board (NERB) exam, 1976.
>>3) Required to take a 3-hour "infection control" course every 3 or 4 years.
>>4) One-time requirement to take a course in recognition and reporting of
>>suspected child abuse.
>>5) Every three years must attest to have taken 45 hours of approved
>>continuing education courses. I need not ordinarily provide
>>documentation unless specifically requested to; I choose the courses I
>>take and there is no requirement or minimum in any specific area.
>>
>> As you can see, I've been basically unsupervised for 30 years. But it
>>may be much better in lab technology--after all, most aren't
>>self-employed, and I'm sure commercial labs would want to be very strict!!
>
>
> Don't you certify the sterilization of your equipment? Don't you have OSHA
> visits? What kind of oversight? Just curious. Don't mean to put you on the
> spot.


Not at all. I do certify my sterilization, and we're supposed to
follow OSHA guidelines (which mirror CDC protocols). But there is no
oversight, and OSHA doesn't inspect private offices as a matter of
course. Generally from what I hear, most OSHA inspections are triggered
by a complaint from disgruntled former employees. They simply don't
have the staffing to do routine inspections.
Oh, yes--the state inspects our X-ray equipment every few years.

Steve
>
>
>>Steve
>>
>>
>>
>>>It may be that the competency for 'non-medical treatment oriented' testing
>>>has a lesser standard. I mean you blow the steroid test and nobody dies
>>>(mostly). You blow the blood glucose and some patient could die.
>>>
>>>Having said that, many labs go for six sigma and other hard to get
>>>certifications that's even a step above that. That's usually GM practices
>>>and this lab isn't manufacturing anything. There's also ISO-9000, ISO-1400
>>>and so on.
>>>
>>>If the lab is internationally used/known, it shouldn't be hard to find out.
>>>
>>>If I was Floyd's lawyer I'd be looking into who certs them.
>>>
>>>
>
>


--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

[Donald Munro]

nobody wrote:
> Uh, Doc, it's PhD. pH is acid-base. LOL.

Maybe its PCP.

[nobody]

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 19:31:22 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
> wrote:

>nobody wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> It's not a guess. They test for competency twice a year, and every
>> six-months reference samples are sent out and scored. If you fail one, you
>> don't work there long. Don't know how it is in France.
>
> Is this a state reg. or is this the facilities' prerogative?

Our lab has about five agencies to whom they are responsible. Some
inspections are more cursory than others. We're required to produce records
and temps and equipment logs, repairs. GMP, ISO-9000, CDC. ISO used to be
voluntary and people try to get it. Brings up their cert quite a bit. Only
about five agencies like ours are ISO-certified in the US last time I
looked. We are not there being in a teaching hospital. It's no joke - you
lose your cert on any one of five and you could end up being outsourced to
someone who can.

>>
>>> I don't know what it is in medical laboratory technology--or medicine,
>>>for that matter.
>>> But here is the competency testing I have passed as a dentist in NY State:
>>>1) Successfully completed Part I and Part II of the National Board
>>>Dental Exams in 1975 and 1976.
>>>2) Successfully passed the the Northeast Regional Board (NERB) exam, 1976.
>>>3) Required to take a 3-hour "infection control" course every 3 or 4 years.
>>>4) One-time requirement to take a course in recognition and reporting of
>>>suspected child abuse.
>>>5) Every three years must attest to have taken 45 hours of approved
>>>continuing education courses. I need not ordinarily provide
>>>documentation unless specifically requested to; I choose the courses I
>>>take and there is no requirement or minimum in any specific area.
>>>
>>> As you can see, I've been basically unsupervised for 30 years. But it
>>>may be much better in lab technology--after all, most aren't
>>>self-employed, and I'm sure commercial labs would want to be very strict!!
>>
>>
>> Don't you certify the sterilization of your equipment? Don't you have OSHA
>> visits? What kind of oversight? Just curious. Don't mean to put you on the
>> spot.
>
>
> Not at all. I do certify my sterilization, and we're supposed to
>follow OSHA guidelines (which mirror CDC protocols). But there is no
>oversight, and OSHA doesn't inspect private offices as a matter of
>course. Generally from what I hear, most OSHA inspections are triggered
>by a complaint from disgruntled former employees. They simply don't
>have the staffing to do routine inspections.

This is correct. I've served as the in-house OSHA liaison getting all the
departments in line, doing mock-inspections. You have state OSHA as well as
Federal; state usually soft-balls other state agencies.

> Oh, yes--the state inspects our X-ray equipment every few years.

I'm surprised you don't have to do monthly xray calibrations using
standards and test films. How do you know you're not having overdosing? I'd
expect the state to inspect your weekly Q.C. notebooks. Do your D.A.s have
to know how to put in a line? How about sterile technique? Swabs of
surfaces for bacterial contamination? These are things I'd want to see as
an inspector.

BTW, I noticed on 'The Beauty and the Geek' one of the beauties was a D.A.
She was as dumb as a box of hammers. How in the world could she get through
school? Did you see that show? ;-D

Again, just chatting.

[nobody]

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 22:17:51 +0200, Donald Munro >
wrote:

>nobody wrote:
>> Uh, Doc, it's PhD. pH is acid-base. LOL.
>
>Maybe its PCP.

You suggesting Gorilla is an example of good PhDs gone bad? ;-D

[Mark & Steven Bornfeld]

nobody wrote:

> On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 18:25:08 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
> > wrote:
>
>
>> Could be much worse. Or not. Didn't know you had a pHD (saw that Andy
>>had mentioned it) and wonder what it is. Surely then, you know it
>>depends who's counting, and how.
>>
>>Steve
>
>
> Uh, Doc, it's PhD. pH is acid-base. LOL.
>
> j/k


Ya, my bad, not acidotic.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

[Mark & Steven Bornfeld]

nobody wrote:

> On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 19:31:22 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
> > wrote:
>
>
>>nobody wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>It's not a guess. They test for competency twice a year, and every
>>>six-months reference samples are sent out and scored. If you fail one, you
>>>don't work there long. Don't know how it is in France.
>>
>> Is this a state reg. or is this the facilities' prerogative?
>
>
> Our lab has about five agencies to whom they are responsible. Some
> inspections are more cursory than others. We're required to produce records
> and temps and equipment logs, repairs. GMP, ISO-9000, CDC. ISO used to be
> voluntary and people try to get it. Brings up their cert quite a bit. Only
> about five agencies like ours are ISO-certified in the US last time I
> looked. We are not there being in a teaching hospital. It's no joke - you
> lose your cert on any one of five and you could end up being outsourced to
> someone who can.


Are you saying you are in a teaching hospital? I guess ISO is still
voluntary or there wouldn't be only 5 certified nationwide?
>
>
>>>> I don't know what it is in medical laboratory technology--or medicine,
>>>>for that matter.
>>>> But here is the competency testing I have passed as a dentist in NY State:
>>>>1) Successfully completed Part I and Part II of the National Board
>>>>Dental Exams in 1975 and 1976.
>>>>2) Successfully passed the the Northeast Regional Board (NERB) exam, 1976.
>>>>3) Required to take a 3-hour "infection control" course every 3 or 4 years.
>>>>4) One-time requirement to take a course in recognition and reporting of
>>>>suspected child abuse.
>>>>5) Every three years must attest to have taken 45 hours of approved
>>>>continuing education courses. I need not ordinarily provide
>>>>documentation unless specifically requested to; I choose the courses I
>>>>take and there is no requirement or minimum in any specific area.
>>>>
>>>> As you can see, I've been basically unsupervised for 30 years. But it
>>>>may be much better in lab technology--after all, most aren't
>>>>self-employed, and I'm sure commercial labs would want to be very strict!!
>>>
>>>
>>>Don't you certify the sterilization of your equipment? Don't you have OSHA
>>>visits? What kind of oversight? Just curious. Don't mean to put you on the
>>>spot.
>>
>>
>> Not at all. I do certify my sterilization, and we're supposed to
>>follow OSHA guidelines (which mirror CDC protocols). But there is no
>>oversight, and OSHA doesn't inspect private offices as a matter of
>>course. Generally from what I hear, most OSHA inspections are triggered
>>by a complaint from disgruntled former employees. They simply don't
>>have the staffing to do routine inspections.
>
>
> This is correct. I've served as the in-house OSHA liaison getting all the
> departments in line, doing mock-inspections. You have state OSHA as well as
> Federal; state usually soft-balls other state agencies.
>
>
>>Oh, yes--the state inspects our X-ray equipment every few years.
>
>
> I'm surprised you don't have to do monthly xray calibrations using
> standards and test films. How do you know you're not having overdosing? I'd
> expect the state to inspect your weekly Q.C. notebooks. Do your D.A.s have
> to know how to put in a line? How about sterile technique? Swabs of
> surfaces for bacterial contamination? These are things I'd want to see as
> an inspector.

Well, we really use only one type of film, one speed, one exposure.
No, we do not do calibrations, but the inspectors do. It's very
unsophisticated.
Swabs of surfaces for bacterial contamination? I'm sure every dentist
in the country would be in trouble. Really can't practice asepsis, just
focus on eliminating cross-contamination--a lot of disposable
polyethylene sleeves. But you can't do that to the whole room, just the
hardware touched during procedures.

>
> BTW, I noticed on 'The Beauty and the Geek' one of the beauties was a D.A.
> She was as dumb as a box of hammers. How in the world could she get through
> school? Did you see that show? ;-D
>
> Again, just chatting.

No, haven't seen it. I'm not surprised, that's pretty much of a
stereotype.

Steve
>
>
>


--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

[nobody]

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 20:50:56 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
> wrote:

>> I'm surprised you don't have to do monthly xray calibrations using
>> standards and test films. How do you know you're not having overdosing? I'd
>> expect the state to inspect your weekly Q.C. notebooks. Do your D.A.s have
>> to know how to put in a line? How about sterile technique? Swabs of
>> surfaces for bacterial contamination? These are things I'd want to see as
>> an inspector.
>
> Well, we really use only one type of film, one speed, one exposure.
>No, we do not do calibrations, but the inspectors do. It's very
>unsophisticated.

OK, Dental X-rays are different than hospital whole body devices. Duh.

> Swabs of surfaces for bacterial contamination? I'm sure every dentist
>in the country would be in trouble. Really can't practice asepsis, just
>focus on eliminating cross-contamination--a lot of disposable
>polyethylene sleeves. But you can't do that to the whole room, just the
>hardware touched during procedures.

So no Quaternary Ammonium cleansers? Don't you have patients with hepatitis
risk? No AIDS patients? Just curious. Do you have a cleaning service?

I recall 15yrs ago when I had a tooth pulled in an emergency the tech put a
needle in my vein without alcohol swab (Sodium Brevitol drip), just jammed
it in there - I would know - I did venipunctures at the time. Freaked me
out 'cuz we do iodine swab prep for big needles (this was a 16ga.). No
problems but it made me wonder about their training. Do you use anesthesia
like that also, or just gas?

>> BTW, I noticed on 'The Beauty and the Geek' one of the beauties was a D.A.
>> She was as dumb as a box of hammers. How in the world could she get through
>> school? Did you see that show? ;-D
>>
>> Again, just chatting.
>
> No, haven't seen it. I'm not surprised, that's pretty much of a
>stereotype.

She couldn't remember, after studying it all evening what causes pollution.
One of the Beauties says 'I wouldn't eat a lot of gaseous foods and cause
fart pollution'. LOL Again this isn't off the cuff. They'd been studying
five potential questions. Global Warming, Pollution and some others. Wasn't
paying attention, wife and daughter watching.

Reminds me of a classic Bobby Julich moment in the TdF interview, 1999.

BJ: "I'm engaged to...a girl" (forgot her name?)
Laughs
BJ: Wait, I better do that over.

[Steven Bornfeld]

nobody wrote:
>
> So no Quaternary Ammonium cleansers? Don't you have patients with hepatitis
> risk? No AIDS patients? Just curious. Do you have a cleaning service?

All instruments are sterilized or disposable, of course. If I use a
surface disinfectant, it's either a phenolic or glutaraldehyde--pretty
nasty stuff, but quats are considered pretty useless as disinfectants
these days. There should be no direct contact with any cabinet surfaces
anyhow during a procedure, but of course they're considered contaminated
from droplet nucleii. I confess I don't bag the entire dental
chair--just the headrest.


>
> I recall 15yrs ago when I had a tooth pulled in an emergency the tech put a
> needle in my vein without alcohol swab (Sodium Brevitol drip), just jammed
> it in there - I would know - I did venipunctures at the time. Freaked me
> out 'cuz we do iodine swab prep for big needles (this was a 16ga.). No
> problems but it made me wonder about their training. Do you use anesthesia
> like that also, or just gas?

Actually, I don't even use nitrous anymore, and thank goodness NY State
now requires certification for enteral and parenteral agents (I believe
inhalation agents too, but I'm not sure it's required for nitrous).
I understand your concern about disinfecting the skin prior to
injection, but you don't believe you can disinfect oral mucosae prior to
injection, do you? I can't say I can recall even one infection I can
attribute to an intraoral injection in 30 years. Yes, it ain't aseptic,
but we manage to get away somehow with a multitude of sins.

>
>>> BTW, I noticed on 'The Beauty and the Geek' one of the beauties was a D.A.
>>> She was as dumb as a box of hammers. How in the world could she get through
>>> school? Did you see that show? ;-D
>>>
>>> Again, just chatting.
>> No, haven't seen it. I'm not surprised, that's pretty much of a
>> stereotype.
>
> She couldn't remember, after studying it all evening what causes pollution.
> One of the Beauties says 'I wouldn't eat a lot of gaseous foods and cause
> fart pollution'. LOL Again this isn't off the cuff. They'd been studying
> five potential questions. Global Warming, Pollution and some others. Wasn't
> paying attention, wife and daughter watching.
>
> Reminds me of a classic Bobby Julich moment in the TdF interview, 1999.
>
> BJ: "I'm engaged to...a girl" (forgot her name?)
> Laughs
> BJ: Wait, I better do that over.

Luckily (for me) I'm tolerant of fart pollution. Wow, I didn't
remember that about Julich--that's really impressive.

Steve
>
>
>
>

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> Oh, yes--the state inspects our X-ray equipment every few years.

Only every few years? Guess that explains why you guys run & hide every time
you do an x-ray! :>)

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


"Mark & Steven Bornfeld" > wrote in message
news:eMekh.5728$9H4.1282@trndny07...
> nobody wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> It's not a guess. They test for competency twice a year, and every
>> six-months reference samples are sent out and scored. If you fail one,
>> you
>> don't work there long. Don't know how it is in France.
>
> Is this a state reg. or is this the facilities' prerogative?
>>
>>
>>> I don't know what it is in medical laboratory technology--or medicine,
>>> for that matter.
>>> But here is the competency testing I have passed as a dentist in NY
>>> State:
>>>1) Successfully completed Part I and Part II of the National Board Dental
>>>Exams in 1975 and 1976.
>>>2) Successfully passed the the Northeast Regional Board (NERB) exam,
>>>1976.
>>>3) Required to take a 3-hour "infection control" course every 3 or 4
>>>years.
>>>4) One-time requirement to take a course in recognition and reporting of
>>>suspected child abuse.
>>>5) Every three years must attest to have taken 45 hours of approved
>>>continuing education courses. I need not ordinarily provide
>>>documentation unless specifically requested to; I choose the courses I
>>>take and there is no requirement or minimum in any specific area.
>>>
>>> As you can see, I've been basically unsupervised for 30 years. But it
>>> may be much better in lab technology--after all, most aren't
>>> self-employed, and I'm sure commercial labs would want to be very
>>> strict!!
>>
>>
>> Don't you certify the sterilization of your equipment? Don't you have
>> OSHA
>> visits? What kind of oversight? Just curious. Don't mean to put you on
>> the
>> spot.
>
>
> Not at all. I do certify my sterilization, and we're supposed to follow
> OSHA guidelines (which mirror CDC protocols). But there is no oversight,
> and OSHA doesn't inspect private offices as a matter of course. Generally
> from what I hear, most OSHA inspections are triggered by a complaint from
> disgruntled former employees. They simply don't have the staffing to do
> routine inspections.
> Oh, yes--the state inspects our X-ray equipment every few years.
>
> Steve
>>
>>
>>>Steve
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>It may be that the competency for 'non-medical treatment oriented'
>>>>testing
>>>>has a lesser standard. I mean you blow the steroid test and nobody dies
>>>>(mostly). You blow the blood glucose and some patient could die.
>>>>
>>>>Having said that, many labs go for six sigma and other hard to get
>>>>certifications that's even a step above that. That's usually GM
>>>>practices
>>>>and this lab isn't manufacturing anything. There's also ISO-9000,
>>>>ISO-1400
>>>>and so on.
>>>>
>>>>If the lab is internationally used/known, it shouldn't be hard to find
>>>>out.
>>>>
>>>>If I was Floyd's lawyer I'd be looking into who certs them.
>>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
> http://www.dentaltwins.com
> Brooklyn, NY
> 718-258-5001

[Mark & Steven Bornfeld]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

>>Oh, yes--the state inspects our X-ray equipment every few years.
>
>
> Only every few years? Guess that explains why you guys run & hide every time
> you do an x-ray! :>)

Ya know, I'll probably regret saying this now--but x-ray equipment is
practically all we use that rarely breaks down or wears out. I don't
remember ever flunking an inspection--maybe the more sophisticated
radiological equipment is more prone to breakdowns, but we've never had
problems.
There are other things I wish I could hide from.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

[Donald Munro]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> Only every few years? Guess that explains why you guys run & hide every time
> you do an x-ray! :>)

You'd better start get worried if he uses a robotic drill and hides behind
a lead screen when using it.