Velodrome

[mal]

Are you drunk?


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> There is nothing I like more than when someone who has been involved in
> cycling longer than I have been alive turns to me in front of a crowd
> of people and asks if his English pronunciation of a technical French
> term is correct.
>
> It's one thing when someone who doesn't know me very well and hasn't
> known me for very long does something like that. It's quite another
> when someone who remembers when I thought my lone 800 rmb bike was
> expensive asks me a highly technical question regarding how things are
> done with regards to bikes, bike shops, bikes as a sport, or racing in
> other countries.
>
> I won't go into great detail regarding why one of my friends has come
> up with the idea that what Haikou really needs is a velodrome. For
> starters, even knowing all the people involved, and knowing all the
> background involved, it's just way too complicated. Lets just say that
> it isn't quite as harebrained as it sounds at first gasp.
>
> The harebrained part of it was asking me how much I think it should
> cost to build a simple velodrome. Just a guesstimate. Based on my
> knowledge of how much something like that might cost in the US.
> Notwithstanding the fact that I've never even _seen_ a velodrome let
> alone ridden in one and have no connections with the construction
> business in any country, my friend thought it was perfectly reasonable
> to ask me this question.
>
> I'll cut him a bit of slack since this particular person was introduced
> to me by way of the Tour de Hainan. And, so far as I know, he wasn't
> actually present on any of the occasions where I had to ask one of the
> comissaires the correct word in English cycling jargon since, if I knew
> it at all, I only knew it in Chinese.
>
> But, hey, I've got the internet... and the internet has the
> rec.bicycles hierarchy of newsgroups which is an amazing resource for
> finding out obscure bits of information that may or may not be
> tangentially related to cycling.
>
> Anyone have a ballpark figure idea of how much it costs to build a
> simple velodrome?
>
> I'm pretty sure the best guesstimate my friend currently has is one
> that has a few too many zeroes and comes from his making the mistake of
> asking someone on the Olympic Committee. That sort of person is not
> only likely to have a wildly different conception of 'simple' they are
> also likely to figure in the cost of buying land in one of the most
> expensive cities in the world.
>
> -M
>

[[email protected]]

There is nothing I like more than when someone who has been involved in
cycling longer than I have been alive turns to me in front of a crowd
of people and asks if his English pronunciation of a technical French
term is correct.

It's one thing when someone who doesn't know me very well and hasn't
known me for very long does something like that. It's quite another
when someone who remembers when I thought my lone 800 rmb bike was
expensive asks me a highly technical question regarding how things are
done with regards to bikes, bike shops, bikes as a sport, or racing in
other countries.

I won't go into great detail regarding why one of my friends has come
up with the idea that what Haikou really needs is a velodrome. For
starters, even knowing all the people involved, and knowing all the
background involved, it's just way too complicated. Lets just say that
it isn't quite as harebrained as it sounds at first gasp.

The harebrained part of it was asking me how much I think it should
cost to build a simple velodrome. Just a guesstimate. Based on my
knowledge of how much something like that might cost in the US.
Notwithstanding the fact that I've never even _seen_ a velodrome let
alone ridden in one and have no connections with the construction
business in any country, my friend thought it was perfectly reasonable
to ask me this question.

I'll cut him a bit of slack since this particular person was introduced
to me by way of the Tour de Hainan. And, so far as I know, he wasn't
actually present on any of the occasions where I had to ask one of the
comissaires the correct word in English cycling jargon since, if I knew
it at all, I only knew it in Chinese.

But, hey, I've got the internet... and the internet has the
rec.bicycles hierarchy of newsgroups which is an amazing resource for
finding out obscure bits of information that may or may not be
tangentially related to cycling.

Anyone have a ballpark figure idea of how much it costs to build a
simple velodrome?

I'm pretty sure the best guesstimate my friend currently has is one
that has a few too many zeroes and comes from his making the mistake of
asking someone on the Olympic Committee. That sort of person is not
only likely to have a wildly different conception of 'simple' they are
also likely to figure in the cost of buying land in one of the most
expensive cities in the world.

-M

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> Anyone have a ballpark figure idea of how much it costs to build a
> simple velodrome?

Dale Hughes built the velodrome used in the Atlanta Olympics, among
several others. He was interviewed by fixed gear fever. One of the
questions is quoted below.

From
http://www.fixedgearfever.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=501

"What would you say to someone who wants to have a velodrome in their
city?

I would tell them to get a piece of paper, write their name on the top
of the list and pledge $1,000, to be collected within 18 months. Then
get 99 others to do the same. If a group can get 100 pledges I am
confident I can help them get a velodrome. The land and the balance of
the funding are quite doable. The Velodrome at Bloomer Park is an
example for other communities that they can succeed. In fact, our
Director of Parks in Rochester Hills will talk to any other
community's government officials and tell them of our structure and
success, send me an email at "

[C Wright]

On 12/24/06 8:26 AM, in article
. com,
" > wrote:

> There is nothing I like more than when someone who has been involved in
> cycling longer than I have been alive turns to me in front of a crowd
> of people and asks if his English pronunciation of a technical French
> term is correct.
>
> It's one thing when someone who doesn't know me very well and hasn't
> known me for very long does something like that. It's quite another
> when someone who remembers when I thought my lone 800 rmb bike was
> expensive asks me a highly technical question regarding how things are
> done with regards to bikes, bike shops, bikes as a sport, or racing in
> other countries.
>
> I won't go into great detail regarding why one of my friends has come
> up with the idea that what Haikou really needs is a velodrome. For
> starters, even knowing all the people involved, and knowing all the
> background involved, it's just way too complicated. Lets just say that
> it isn't quite as harebrained as it sounds at first gasp.
>
> The harebrained part of it was asking me how much I think it should
> cost to build a simple velodrome. Just a guesstimate. Based on my
> knowledge of how much something like that might cost in the US.
> Notwithstanding the fact that I've never even _seen_ a velodrome let
> alone ridden in one and have no connections with the construction
> business in any country, my friend thought it was perfectly reasonable
> to ask me this question.
>
> I'll cut him a bit of slack since this particular person was introduced
> to me by way of the Tour de Hainan. And, so far as I know, he wasn't
> actually present on any of the occasions where I had to ask one of the
> comissaires the correct word in English cycling jargon since, if I knew
> it at all, I only knew it in Chinese.
>
> But, hey, I've got the internet... and the internet has the
> rec.bicycles hierarchy of newsgroups which is an amazing resource for
> finding out obscure bits of information that may or may not be
> tangentially related to cycling.
>
> Anyone have a ballpark figure idea of how much it costs to build a
> simple velodrome?
>
> I'm pretty sure the best guesstimate my friend currently has is one
> that has a few too many zeroes and comes from his making the mistake of
> asking someone on the Olympic Committee. That sort of person is not
> only likely to have a wildly different conception of 'simple' they are
> also likely to figure in the cost of buying land in one of the most
> expensive cities in the world.
>
> -M
>

Unless you get a direct response from a velodrome owner or builder here is
one path for you to potentially follow:

Here is the web site of a velodrome in Frisco, TX with which I am familiar -
http://www.superdrome.com/
They provide links to the email addresses for several of the people who are
in charge of the facility. I would suggest that you email one of them
directly and explain your circumstances and ask your question.

The reason that I suggest this particular facility is because, while it is
an 'official' sized velodrome, it is very much a public facility largely run
by volunteers and is in daily use. It is not some stadium sized facility
just used for Olympic style events.
Chuck

[Dan Gregory]

wrote:

> Anyone have a ballpark figure idea of how much it costs to build a
> simple velodrome?

There was news of somebody in Somerset UK wanting to get planning
permission to build one on his farm.
http://www.fisheroutdoor.co.uk/public/index.php/news.php?action=date&id=200508

[Brian Huntley]

wrote:

> Anyone have a ballpark figure idea of how much it costs to build a
> simple velodrome?

London, Ontario, Canada has a newish velodrome - their website is here:
http://forestcityvelodrome.ca/

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> Anyone have a ballpark figure idea of how much it costs to build a
> simple velodrome?

I don't think anyone has ever built a simple velodrome (or "built a
velodrome, simply") <g>.

You need "comps" (comparables); maybe there aren't any for your
location, speaking to land buying and use regulations, materials costs,
local building expertise. I'm not saying there aren't; I have no idea,
personally.

Suggested reading material:

http://www.velodromes.com/index.htm

The Koln v-drome, for instance, was built in stages, per available
financing. --D-y

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> Anyone have a ballpark figure idea of how much it costs to build a
> simple velodrome?

Some time ago I was sitting at an airport with my laptop, real bored
and not wanting to do any work, so I started wondering if I could build
a velodrome on my land. First I Googled info on velodromes, then on
concrete. Below is the complete text of what I wrote. My $20K
estimate is likely very low.

Tom

********* Beginning of Toms Velodrome.txt ********************

The San Diego Velodrome is 333.33 meters. That length is figured from
a line around the velodrome 20 cm above the base of the track.

Another standard size is 250 meters. There seem to be a lot of them
in the world. The smallest is 125 meters (8 laps per km).

A 250 meter velodrome will have 43 degree slope on the ends and 13
degree on ths straights. A 125 meter velodrome will have 50 degree
slopes on the ends.

I couldn't find any info on the aspect ratio but I did find a 250
meter velodrome that was 115 m x 55 m external and 100 m x 40 m on
the infield. That means the track is 7.5 meters wide.

The velodrome external dimensions are then 125.7 yards (377 feet) by
60.15 yards (180.5 feet). Half that size for a 125 meter velodrome.

By simple trig the hole in the ground to create a velodrome with a
50% banked end would be 6.28 meters (6.87 yards, 20.6 feet). Wow!

To determine how much concrete this would be I have to calculate the
area of a 250 meter velodrome track. The area of the straights is
easy.
Each straight is 60 m long (115 m - 55 m) and 7.5 m wide. And there
are two of them. So 2 x 60 m x 7.5 m = 900 m^2 (1076.4 yds^2).

The ends can be considered two concentric circles. The outer one has
a radius of 55 m and the inner has a 40 m radius. The desired area
is the area of the outer circle minus the area of the inner circle.
So (pi x 27.5^2) - (pi x 20^2) = 1119.2 m^2 (1338.5 yrd^2).

So the total is 2019.2 m^2 (2414.94 yrd^2). The actual surface area
is larger than that because this calculation doesn't consider the
banks.

I've seen estimates of concrete driveways at $10/yrd^2. That would
make
the 250 meter velodrome cost $20K. A velodrome wouldn't have to
withstand
the weight of autos but it would have to be built with a sharp slope
and
built solid enough to avoid cracks.

********* End of Toms Velodrome.txt ********************

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article . com>,
" > wrote:


> I won't go into great detail regarding why one of my friends has come
> up with the idea that what Haikou really needs is a velodrome. For
> starters, even knowing all the people involved, and knowing all the
> background involved, it's just way too complicated. Lets just say that
> it isn't quite as harebrained as it sounds at first gasp.

> Anyone have a ballpark figure idea of how much it costs to build a
> simple velodrome?

The short answer is somewhere between $0 and $15 million.

The 250m ADT Event Center in LA was recently built for the latter cost.
It is a full-on "host world championships" (which it already has done)
facility, and it's an indoor facility.

http://www.homedepotcenter.com/venues/customadtevent.sps?iType=4176&icust
ompageid=6773

The Forest City velodrome in London, Ontario, Canada was recently
constructed at a cost of about $200,000:

http://bikeportland.org/2006/12/05/steve-brown-has-visions-of-a-new-velod
rome/

Note that while that's an indoor facility, they cheated: the building
already existed; it's a former hockey rink. Forest City is also a
138-metre track, which makes it one of the shortest tracks in the world.

http://forestcityvelodrome.ca/trackhistory.html

The Forest City 'drome probably also sets the rough cost for an outdoor
track, too.

The Burnaby Velodrome, constructed in 1997, is an indoor facility with
an air-supported roof. If you want a gorily-detailed history of its
construction, I'll put you in contact with the club president and
archivist. He has a pretty good handle on the construction process,
which was unusually ugly for this track, but it has more or less worked
out now.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

[Bob Schwartz]

wrote:
> Anyone have a ballpark figure idea of how much it costs to build a
> simple velodrome?

http://members.allstream.net/~junek/index.html

Bob Schwartz

[Don Wiss]

> wrote:

>I won't go into great detail regarding why one of my friends has come
>up with the idea that what Haikou really needs is a velodrome.

Here are pages on the one in NYC:

http://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_things_to_do/facilities/af_cycling.html
http://www.bikecult.com/works/kissenatrack.html
http://www.kissena.info/track/

Don <www.donwiss.com/joyrides> (e-mail link at page bottom).

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

wrote:
> There is nothing I like more than when someone who has been involved in
> cycling longer than I have been alive turns to me in front of a crowd
> of people and asks if his English pronunciation of a technical French
> term is correct.
>
> It's one thing when someone who doesn't know me very well and hasn't
> known me for very long does something like that. It's quite another
> when someone who remembers when I thought my lone 800 rmb bike was
> expensive asks me a highly technical question regarding how things are
> done with regards to bikes, bike shops, bikes as a sport, or racing in
> other countries.
>
> I won't go into great detail regarding why one of my friends has come
> up with the idea that what Haikou really needs is a velodrome. For
> starters, even knowing all the people involved, and knowing all the
> background involved, it's just way too complicated. Lets just say that
> it isn't quite as harebrained as it sounds at first gasp.
>
> The harebrained part of it was asking me how much I think it should
> cost to build a simple velodrome. Just a guesstimate. Based on my
> knowledge of how much something like that might cost in the US.
> Notwithstanding the fact that I've never even _seen_ a velodrome let
> alone ridden in one and have no connections with the construction
> business in any country, my friend thought it was perfectly reasonable
> to ask me this question.
>
> I'll cut him a bit of slack since this particular person was introduced
> to me by way of the Tour de Hainan. And, so far as I know, he wasn't
> actually present on any of the occasions where I had to ask one of the
> comissaires the correct word in English cycling jargon since, if I knew
> it at all, I only knew it in Chinese.
>
> But, hey, I've got the internet... and the internet has the
> rec.bicycles hierarchy of newsgroups which is an amazing resource for
> finding out obscure bits of information that may or may not be
> tangentially related to cycling.
>
> Anyone have a ballpark figure idea of how much it costs to build a
> simple velodrome?

Two locals here did the math and a simple, concrete, 250 meter, into
the ground velodrome is about $500,000.
>
> I'm pretty sure the best guesstimate my friend currently has is one
> that has a few too many zeroes and comes from his making the mistake of
> asking someone on the Olympic Committee. That sort of person is not
> only likely to have a wildly different conception of 'simple' they are
> also likely to figure in the cost of buying land in one of the most
> expensive cities in the world.
>
> -M

[Andy Coggan]

wrote:
> wrote:
> > Anyone have a ballpark figure idea of how much it costs to build a
> > simple velodrome?
>
> Some time ago I was sitting at an airport with my laptop, real bored
> and not wanting to do any work, so I started wondering if I could build
> a velodrome on my land. First I Googled info on velodromes, then on
> concrete. Below is the complete text of what I wrote. My $20K
> estimate is likely very low.
>
> Tom
>
> ********* Beginning of Toms Velodrome.txt ********************
>
> The San Diego Velodrome is 333.33 meters. That length is figured from
> a line around the velodrome 20 cm above the base of the track.
>
> Another standard size is 250 meters. There seem to be a lot of them
> in the world. The smallest is 125 meters (8 laps per km).
>
> A 250 meter velodrome will have 43 degree slope on the ends and 13
> degree on ths straights. A 125 meter velodrome will have 50 degree
> slopes on the ends.
>
> I couldn't find any info on the aspect ratio but I did find a 250
> meter velodrome that was 115 m x 55 m external and 100 m x 40 m on
> the infield. That means the track is 7.5 meters wide.
>
> The velodrome external dimensions are then 125.7 yards (377 feet) by
> 60.15 yards (180.5 feet). Half that size for a 125 meter velodrome.
>
> By simple trig the hole in the ground to create a velodrome with a
> 50% banked end would be 6.28 meters (6.87 yards, 20.6 feet). Wow!
>
> To determine how much concrete this would be I have to calculate the
> area of a 250 meter velodrome track. The area of the straights is
> easy.
> Each straight is 60 m long (115 m - 55 m) and 7.5 m wide. And there
> are two of them. So 2 x 60 m x 7.5 m = 900 m^2 (1076.4 yds^2).
>
> The ends can be considered two concentric circles. The outer one has
> a radius of 55 m and the inner has a 40 m radius. The desired area
> is the area of the outer circle minus the area of the inner circle.
> So (pi x 27.5^2) - (pi x 20^2) = 1119.2 m^2 (1338.5 yrd^2).
>
> So the total is 2019.2 m^2 (2414.94 yrd^2). The actual surface area
> is larger than that because this calculation doesn't consider the
> banks.
>
> I've seen estimates of concrete driveways at $10/yrd^2. That would
> make
> the 250 meter velodrome cost $20K. A velodrome wouldn't have to
> withstand
> the weight of autos but it would have to be built with a sharp slope
> and
> built solid enough to avoid cracks.
>
> ********* End of Toms Velodrome.txt ********************

You left out a critical detail in your analysis: it requires special
expertise (and perhaps special materials) to pour concrete smoothly on
a steep slope, and I'm not even sure it can be done if the banking is
43 degrees. That's why few, if any, tracks that are less than 333.3 m
around are made of concrete.

Depending on where you live, my guess is that land may be less
expensive than materials and special skills...in which case a large,
asphalt track with only modest banking may be the cheapest route to go.

Andy Coggan

[CowPunk]

> You left out a critical detail in your analysis: it requires special
> expertise (and perhaps special materials) to pour concrete smoothly on
> a steep slope, and I'm not even sure it can be done if the banking is
> 43 degrees. That's why few, if any, tracks that are less than 333.3 m
> around are made of concrete.
>

Unless it's precast concrete panels.

[Mike Kruger]

wrote:
>
> Anyone have a ballpark figure idea of how much it costs to build a
> simple velodrome?
>
I don't, but the Northbrook (Illinois, USA) Velodrome was reconstructed a
couple of years ago. They should have some reconstruction figures handy.
Can't hurt to ask.
http://www.northbrookvelodrome.org/

[Carl Sundquist]

"CowPunk" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> You left out a critical detail in your analysis: it requires special
>> expertise (and perhaps special materials) to pour concrete smoothly on
>> a steep slope, and I'm not even sure it can be done if the banking is
>> 43 degrees. That's why few, if any, tracks that are less than 333.3 m
>> around are made of concrete.
>>
>
> Unless it's precast concrete panels.
>

Hmm. might be difficult to find precast concrete panels for the bends, given
the needed trapezoidal shapes.

Actually, there are more sub 333.33 concrete tracks than you think. Sandy
Sutherland's book "No Brakes!" lists 37 out of 122 tracks in France as being
concrete and less than 333.3, although the book does not say if the tracks
are still operational or even in operating shape. (as a comparison, the book
lists Brown Deer in WI, a track in St Louis, Shakopee in MN, Dorais in
Detroit, and an old, portable board track that was built in the 70's that
was stolen [1] in the book, although it denotes St Louis and Dorais as
unrideable and Shakopee and the portable track as destroyed).

I've ridden on two 250 concrete tracks in South America that were
constructed in the 90's: the Mar de Plata track in Argentina that was used
for the '95 Pan Am games. It was a very nice track. The other 250 track was
in Baranquilla, Colombia. It was brand new in '92 when I rode it and it was
horribly bumpy.

[1] This was a portable track that was used for an attempt at a revival of
the six days in the US. It was stored in several semi trailers that were
stolen.

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 16:00:13 -0600, "Carl Sundquist" >
wrote:

[snip]

>[1] This was a portable track that was used for an attempt at a revival of
>the six days in the US. It was stored in several semi trailers that were
>stolen.

Dear Carl,

Paging Mr. John A. Dortmunder . . .

Message for Mr. John Dortmunder from Mr. Donald Westlake . . .

Please meet Mr. Westlake and Mr. Sundquist at the O.J. Bar & Grill on
Amsterdam Avenue . . .

If your schedule will not allow this, please contact Mr. Hammett at
#28 at the address below:

http://www.thrillingdetective.com/trivia/hammett2.html

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[Carl Sundquist]

> wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 16:00:13 -0600, "Carl Sundquist" >
> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>[1] This was a portable track that was used for an attempt at a revival of
>>the six days in the US. It was stored in several semi trailers that were
>>stolen.
>
> Dear Carl,
>
> Paging Mr. John A. Dortmunder . . .
>
> Message for Mr. John Dortmunder from Mr. Donald Westlake . . .
>
> Please meet Mr. Westlake and Mr. Sundquist at the O.J. Bar & Grill on
> Amsterdam Avenue . . .
>
> If your schedule will not allow this, please contact Mr. Hammett at
> #28 at the address below:
>
> http://www.thrillingdetective.com/trivia/hammett2.html
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

I wasn't there. Please tell us what really happened.

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 20:03:00 -0600, "Carl Sundquist" >
wrote:

>
> wrote in message
...
>> On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 16:00:13 -0600, "Carl Sundquist" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>[1] This was a portable track that was used for an attempt at a revival of
>>>the six days in the US. It was stored in several semi trailers that were
>>>stolen.
>>
>> Dear Carl,
>>
>> Paging Mr. John A. Dortmunder . . .
>>
>> Message for Mr. John Dortmunder from Mr. Donald Westlake . . .
>>
>> Please meet Mr. Westlake and Mr. Sundquist at the O.J. Bar & Grill on
>> Amsterdam Avenue . . .
>>
>> If your schedule will not allow this, please contact Mr. Hammett at
>> #28 at the address below:
>>
>> http://www.thrillingdetective.com/trivia/hammett2.html
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carl Fogel
>
>I wasn't there. Please tell us what really happened.

Dear Carl,

Me neither.

I wasn't incredulous, just vastly amused that someone pulled a
Dortmunder-style heist of a bicycle race-track--which isn't quite as
improbable as it sounds, given Hammett's real-life ferris-wheel thief.

Possibly the bicycle race-track ended up in this Simpson's episode,
where Homer, disguised as Krusty, is about to be executed by Don
Vittorio DiMaggio unless Homer disguised as Krusty can entertain him
in a very specific way:

Vittorio: Sorry I have to do this, Krusty. [pulls a gun] [points it at
Homer, cocks trigger] I cannot do it. To murder a funny man of such
genius would be a crime. Ah, tell you what, Krusty: do for me my
favorite trick where you ride the little bike for me through the loop,
and I will let you live.

http://www.snpp.com/episodes/2F12.html

It's suspicious that Don Vittorio DiMaggio just happens to have a
loop-the-loop bicycle track handy for Homer and Krusty to ride through
on their miniature bicycles. Where did this self-described "old
Italian stereotype" get his personal velodrome? Could it have fallen
off the back of the stolen trucks?

Paging Mr. Matt Groening, message for Mr. Matt Groening . . .

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[dgk]

On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 08:23:21 -0500, Don Wiss >
wrote:

> wrote:
>
>>I won't go into great detail regarding why one of my friends has come
>>up with the idea that what Haikou really needs is a velodrome.
>
>Here are pages on the one in NYC:
>
>http://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_things_to_do/facilities/af_cycling.html
>http://www.bikecult.com/works/kissenatrack.html
>http://www.kissena.info/track/
>
>Don <www.donwiss.com/joyrides> (e-mail link at page bottom).

That one is a half mile from my house. I watch the races in the summer
but don't ride on it much myself. There is now a fence around it but
it's easy enough to lift a bike over the fence.

[[email protected]]

Don Wiss wrote:
> > wrote:
>
> >I won't go into great detail regarding why one of my friends has come
> >up with the idea that what Haikou really needs is a velodrome.
>
> Here are pages on the one in NYC:
>
> http://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_things_to_do/facilities/af_cycling.html
> http://www.bikecult.com/works/kissenatrack.html
> http://www.kissena.info/track/
>
> Don <www.donwiss.com/joyrides> (e-mail link at page bottom).

Picking a random message to respond when I say this is what I love
about the internet. Sometimes the information is useful.

I think I'll let the friend in question do the following up. He ended
up getting the position he has because of his fluency in English.

-M

[Tom Keats]

In article m>,
" > writes:

> I think I'll let the friend in question do the following up. He ended
> up getting the position he has because of his fluency in English.

Here's some candy with which to entice him:
http://www.duncgrayvelodrome.com/

The Dunc Gray Velodrome, built for the Sydney Olympics.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Ewoud Dronkert]

Tom Keats wrote:
> Here's some candy with which to entice him:
> http://www.duncgrayvelodrome.com/

And some reading:
http://www.wolfram.com/products/mathematica/usersanduses/experience/vanishing.html
and http://www.wolfram.com/news/velo2.html

Well, enticing for me anyway.


--
E. Dronkert

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article >,
Ewoud Dronkert > wrote:

> Tom Keats wrote:
> > Here's some candy with which to entice him:
> > http://www.duncgrayvelodrome.com/
>
> And some reading:
> http://www.wolfram.com/products/mathematica/usersanduses/experience/vanishing.html
> and http://www.wolfram.com/news/velo2.html
>
> Well, enticing for me anyway.

Ewoud: given the name of that first link, and that you posted it, I was
absolutely sure the link was going to lead to something about Tim Krabbé.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

[Ewoud Dronkert]

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> Ewoud Dronkert > wrote:
>> http://www.wolfram.com/products/mathematica/usersanduses/experience/vanishing.html
>
> Ewoud: given the name of that first link, and that you posted it, I was
> absolutely sure the link was going to lead to something about Tim Krabbé.

Ha, that's funny but it was not my intention.

You know, Tim is one of us now:
http://www.fietsenbeleving.nl/rondevantimkrabbe/foto's2006/rimg0288.html


--
E. Dronkert

[Carl Sundquist]

"Ewoud Dronkert" > wrote in message
...
>
> You know, Tim is one of us now:
> http://www.fietsenbeleving.nl/rondevantimkrabbe/foto's2006/rimg0288.html
>

Hmm. The Bianchi must be fairly new.

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article >,
Ewoud Dronkert > wrote:

> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > Ewoud Dronkert > wrote:
> >> http://www.wolfram.com/products/mathematica/usersanduses/experience/vanishi
> >> ng.html
> >
> > Ewoud: given the name of that first link, and that you posted it, I was
> > absolutely sure the link was going to lead to something about Tim Krabbé.
>
> Ha, that's funny but it was not my intention.
>
> You know, Tim is one of us now:
> http://www.fietsenbeleving.nl/rondevantimkrabbe/foto's2006/rimg0288.html

Which one?

Drunk? Fattie? Old? A poser? Cat 4? a Dumbass?

Aw Yeah!

http://www.fietsenbeleving.nl/rondevantimkrabbe/foto's2006/rimg0290.html

His jersey's logo is "Cycles Goff."

That's not a real shop, is it?

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

[[email protected]]

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > > absolutely sure the link was going to lead to something about Tim Krabbé.
>
> Which one?
>
> Drunk? Fattie? Old? A poser? Cat 4? a Dumbass?
>
> Aw Yeah!
>
> http://www.fietsenbeleving.nl/rondevantimkrabbe/foto's2006/rimg0290.html
>
> His jersey's logo is "Cycles Goff."
>
> That's not a real shop, is it?

Wow, that's cool.

"Between the bumper of his car and mine, a rider in a light-blue
Cycles Goff jersey is sitting on the curb, deep in thought. Before
him on the street lies a back wheel, beside him a wooden box
full of sprockets. His gears: he still has to decide which ones to
use. There are four cols today, no one knows exactly how
steep. I do: I've been over the course." - T. Krabbe.

This guy has done way too much work:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~laarmans/tuur/renner/koers.htm

Ben

[Ewoud Dronkert]

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> Ewoud Dronkert > wrote:
>> You know, Tim is one of us now:
>> http://www.fietsenbeleving.nl/rondevantimkrabbe/foto's2006/rimg0288.html
>
> Which one?
> Drunk? Fattie? Old? A poser? Cat 4? a Dumbass?

All of the above. Well, certainly not a dumbass. Although,
http://www.fietsenbeleving.nl/rondevantimkrabbe/foto's2006/rimg0387.html

--
E. Dronkert

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 10:47:15 +0100, Ewoud Dronkert
> wrote:

>Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>> Ewoud Dronkert > wrote:
>>> You know, Tim is one of us now:
>>> http://www.fietsenbeleving.nl/rondevantimkrabbe/foto's2006/rimg0288.html
>>
>> Which one?
>> Drunk? Fattie? Old? A poser? Cat 4? a Dumbass?
>
>All of the above. Well, certainly not a dumbass. Although,
>http://www.fietsenbeleving.nl/rondevantimkrabbe/foto's2006/rimg0387.html

Man, you've shattered my illusions. I though the Euro-bikers were
always cooler than us (U.S. us).
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

[Carl Sundquist]

"John Forrest Tomlinson" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>All of the above. Well, certainly not a dumbass. Although,
>>http://www.fietsenbeleving.nl/rondevantimkrabbe/foto's2006/rimg0387.html
>
> Man, you've shattered my illusions. I though the Euro-bikers were
> always cooler than us (U.S. us).

Eurobiker? It looks like Miguel DuHamel to me.

http://www.trainright.com/uploads/galleries/1222.jpg

[Michael Press]

In article
>,
Ryan Cousineau > wrote:

> In article >,
> Ewoud Dronkert > wrote:
>
> > Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > > Ewoud Dronkert > wrote:
> > >> http://www.wolfram.com/products/mathematica/usersanduses/experience/vanishi
> > >> ng.html
> > >
> > > Ewoud: given the name of that first link, and that you posted it, I was
> > > absolutely sure the link was going to lead to something about Tim Krabbé.
> >
> > Ha, that's funny but it was not my intention.
> >
> > You know, Tim is one of us now:
> > http://www.fietsenbeleving.nl/rondevantimkrabbe/foto's2006/rimg0288.html
>
> Which one?
>
> Drunk? Fattie? Old? A poser? Cat 4? a Dumbass?
>
> Aw Yeah!
>
> http://www.fietsenbeleving.nl/rondevantimkrabbe/foto's2006/rimg0290.html
>
> His jersey's logo is "Cycles Goff."
>
> That's not a real shop, is it?

He knows enough to wear black tights. There oughta be a law.

--
Michael Press

[Ivar Hesselager]

Den 24.12.2006 kl. 15:26 skrev
>:

>
> Anyone have a ballpark figure idea of how much it costs to build a
> simple velodrome?
>


A new velodrome was built in Copenhagen Danmark in 2003 at the cost of 208
million Danish kroner, equaling 35 mill dollars.
For that much money you could buy 3,500,000 McDonald hamburgers in this
country, or - if you are not that hungy - pay 565 bricklayers to work for
one year.

Ivar of Denmark



--
Sendt med Operas banebrydende postklient:
http://www.opera.com/mail/

[John Dacey]

On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 02:00:19 +0100, "Ivar Hesselager"
> wrote:

>A new velodrome was built in Copenhagen Danmark in 2003 at the cost of 208
>million Danish kroner, equaling 35 mill dollars.
>For that much money you could buy 3,500,000 McDonald hamburgers in this
>country, or - if you are not that hungy - pay 565 bricklayers to work for
>one year.

Well, they probably wanted to make sure that they had enough Big Mac's
reinforcing the roof that it wouldn't fall down again.

-------------------------------
John Dacey
Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
Since 1983
Comprehensive catalogue of track equipment: online since 1996
http://www.businesscycles.com
-------------------------------

[[email protected]]

Ivar Hesselager wrote:
> Den 24.12.2006 kl. 15:26 skrev
> >:
>
> >
> > Anyone have a ballpark figure idea of how much it costs to build a
> > simple velodrome?
> >
>
>
> A new velodrome was built in Copenhagen Danmark in 2003 at the cost of 208
> million Danish kroner, equaling 35 mill dollars.
> For that much money you could buy 3,500,000 McDonald hamburgers in this
> country, or - if you are not that hungy - pay 565 bricklayers to work for
> one year.

Only 565 of them? Bricklayers in Denmark must cost a lot more than
bricklayers in China.

Lessee, I figure I'm currently reasonably well off middle class at a
lazy job making $750 US a month. Middle class starts around $125 US a
month. A bricklayer should probably be making around $50 a month, so
figure $550 a year because there will almost certainly be time that he
or she doesn't work (such as Spring Festival) plus graft and excuses
for a skimmed paycheck like being ten minutes late to work.

$550 a year means two bricklayers for $1100, twenty for 11,000, two
hundred for 110,000, two thousand for 1,100,000. twenty thousand for
11,000,000, or sixty thousand for 33,000,000.

I might be guessing a bit high on how much a bricklayer makes but I
figure if you have 35 million US you could easily employ 63,600 Chinese
bricklayers for one year.

What exactly you would _do_ with 63,600 Chinese bricklayers for one
year is beyond me.

(and don't any of you wise asses answer "build a velodrome" because if
you had that many bricklayers it would take substantially less than one
year to build...)

Anyways, cool as I think it would be to have some amazing world class
facility in one of my favorite cities in the world, I should hope that
my friend (while he does have quite a bit of clout) isn't thinking that
high because dreams that are dreamt that far beyond the pale of reality
tend to fall flat and not get accomplished (especially when those
dreams are being dreamt with other people's money).

When next I see him I'll pass on the links I've already gotten and see
where things go from there. If you'd told me this time last year that
Hainan was going to have a stage race I wouldn't have believed you, and
I definitely wouldn't have believed that I'd not merely get to see it
but get to work at it so I'm willing to stretch the limits of
reasonable thought when someone with authority says they're thinking
Haikou really needs a velodrome.

-M

[Donald Munro]

wrote:
> $550 a year means two bricklayers for $1100, twenty for 11,000, two
> hundred for 110,000, two thousand for 1,100,000. twenty thousand for
> 11,000,000, or sixty thousand for 33,000,000.
>
> I might be guessing a bit high on how much a bricklayer makes but I
> figure if you have 35 million US you could easily employ 63,600 Chinese
> bricklayers for one year.
>
> What exactly you would _do_ with 63,600 Chinese bricklayers for one
> year is beyond me.
>
> (and don't any of you wise asses answer "build a velodrome" because if
> you had that many bricklayers it would take substantially less than one
> year to build...)

Build the great wall of america on the US-Mexico border ?

[Michael Press]

In article
. com>
,
"
> wrote:

> Ivar Hesselager wrote:
> > Den 24.12.2006 kl. 15:26 skrev
> > >:
> >
> > >
> > > Anyone have a ballpark figure idea of how much it costs to build a
> > > simple velodrome?
> > >
> >
> >
> > A new velodrome was built in Copenhagen Danmark in 2003 at the cost of 208
> > million Danish kroner, equaling 35 mill dollars.
> > For that much money you could buy 3,500,000 McDonald hamburgers in this
> > country, or - if you are not that hungy - pay 565 bricklayers to work for
> > one year.
>
> Only 565 of them? Bricklayers in Denmark must cost a lot more than
> bricklayers in China.
>
> Lessee, I figure I'm currently reasonably well off middle class at a
> lazy job making $750 US a month. Middle class starts around $125 US a
> month. A bricklayer should probably be making around $50 a month, so
> figure $550 a year because there will almost certainly be time that he
> or she doesn't work (such as Spring Festival) plus graft and excuses
> for a skimmed paycheck like being ten minutes late to work.
>
> $550 a year means two bricklayers for $1100, twenty for 11,000, two
> hundred for 110,000, two thousand for 1,100,000. twenty thousand for
> 11,000,000, or sixty thousand for 33,000,000.
>
> I might be guessing a bit high on how much a bricklayer makes but I
> figure if you have 35 million US you could easily employ 63,600 Chinese
> bricklayers for one year.
>
> What exactly you would _do_ with 63,600 Chinese bricklayers for one
> year is beyond me.
>
> (and don't any of you wise asses answer "build a velodrome" because if
> you had that many bricklayers it would take substantially less than one
> year to build...)
>
> Anyways, cool as I think it would be to have some amazing world class
> facility in one of my favorite cities in the world, I should hope that
> my friend (while he does have quite a bit of clout) isn't thinking that
> high because dreams that are dreamt that far beyond the pale of reality
> tend to fall flat and not get accomplished (especially when those
> dreams are being dreamt with other people's money).
>
> When next I see him I'll pass on the links I've already gotten and see
> where things go from there. If you'd told me this time last year that
> Hainan was going to have a stage race I wouldn't have believed you, and
> I definitely wouldn't have believed that I'd not merely get to see it
> but get to work at it so I'm willing to stretch the limits of
> reasonable thought when someone with authority says they're thinking
> Haikou really needs a velodrome.

You have been there a while. I worked a contract in
Hong Kong for a couple months. The locals were EE's, I
was software. I would ask the engineers for something
and it happened. Somehow I feel that that velodrome
will happen.

--
Michael Press

[Stu Fleming]

Holy ****, did none of you guys stop to think what the ride quality of a
brick velodrome would be like. Carpenters, that's what you need. Not
bricklayres.
Sheesh.

[Michael Press]

In article >,
Stu Fleming > wrote:

> Holy ****, did none of you guys stop to think what the ride quality of a
> brick velodrome would be like. Carpenters, that's what you need. Not
> bricklayres.
> Sheesh.

Sure I did. What of it?

--
Michael Press

[Bill Baka]

wrote:
> Ivar Hesselager wrote:
>> Den 24.12.2006 kl. 15:26 skrev
>> >:
>>
>>> Anyone have a ballpark figure idea of how much it costs to build a
>>> simple velodrome?
>>>
>>
>> A new velodrome was built in Copenhagen Danmark in 2003 at the cost of 208
>> million Danish kroner, equaling 35 mill dollars.
>> For that much money you could buy 3,500,000 McDonald hamburgers in this
>> country, or - if you are not that hungy - pay 565 bricklayers to work for
>> one year.
>
> Only 565 of them? Bricklayers in Denmark must cost a lot more than
> bricklayers in China.
>
> Lessee, I figure I'm currently reasonably well off middle class at a
> lazy job making $750 US a month. Middle class starts around $125 US a
> month. A bricklayer should probably be making around $50 a month, so
> figure $550 a year because there will almost certainly be time that he
> or she doesn't work (such as Spring Festival) plus graft and excuses
> for a skimmed paycheck like being ten minutes late to work.
>
> $550 a year means two bricklayers for $1100, twenty for 11,000, two
> hundred for 110,000, two thousand for 1,100,000. twenty thousand for
> 11,000,000, or sixty thousand for 33,000,000.
>
> I might be guessing a bit high on how much a bricklayer makes but I
> figure if you have 35 million US you could easily employ 63,600 Chinese
> bricklayers for one year.
>
> What exactly you would _do_ with 63,600 Chinese bricklayers for one
> year is beyond me.
>
> (and don't any of you wise asses answer "build a velodrome" because if
> you had that many bricklayers it would take substantially less than one
> year to build...)
>
> Anyways, cool as I think it would be to have some amazing world class
> facility in one of my favorite cities in the world, I should hope that
> my friend (while he does have quite a bit of clout) isn't thinking that
> high because dreams that are dreamt that far beyond the pale of reality
> tend to fall flat and not get accomplished (especially when those
> dreams are being dreamt with other people's money).
>
> When next I see him I'll pass on the links I've already gotten and see
> where things go from there. If you'd told me this time last year that
> Hainan was going to have a stage race I wouldn't have believed you, and
> I definitely wouldn't have believed that I'd not merely get to see it
> but get to work at it so I'm willing to stretch the limits of
> reasonable thought when someone with authority says they're thinking
> Haikou really needs a velodrome.
>
> -M
>
Let's make it simple.
You build it (In China) and nobody will come.
I don't care where you live, I don't do Communist countries.
Funny how we are kissing China's butt, yet ignoring Cuba.
Of course you could have it built there and sent here with a huge "Made
in China" sticker like everything else.
Bill Baka

[[email protected]]

Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> . com>
> ,
> "
> > wrote:
>
> > Ivar Hesselager wrote:
> > > Den 24.12.2006 kl. 15:26 skrev
> > > >:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Anyone have a ballpark figure idea of how much it costs to build a
> > > > simple velodrome?
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A new velodrome was built in Copenhagen Danmark in 2003 at the cost of 208
> > > million Danish kroner, equaling 35 mill dollars.
> > > For that much money you could buy 3,500,000 McDonald hamburgers in this
> > > country, or - if you are not that hungy - pay 565 bricklayers to work for
> > > one year.
> >
> > Only 565 of them? Bricklayers in Denmark must cost a lot more than
> > bricklayers in China.

> > I might be guessing a bit high on how much a bricklayer makes but I
> > figure if you have 35 million US you could easily employ 63,600 Chinese
> > bricklayers for one year.

> > When next I see him I'll pass on the links I've already gotten and see
> > where things go from there. If you'd told me this time last year that
> > Hainan was going to have a stage race I wouldn't have believed you, and
> > I definitely wouldn't have believed that I'd not merely get to see it
> > but get to work at it so I'm willing to stretch the limits of
> > reasonable thought when someone with authority says they're thinking
> > Haikou really needs a velodrome.
>
> You have been there a while. I worked a contract in
> Hong Kong for a couple months. The locals were EE's, I
> was software. I would ask the engineers for something
> and it happened. Somehow I feel that that velodrome
> will happen.

It was only _supposed_ to be ten months.

I'm well into the fifth year and I've learned two important things:
1. I can't count
2. I don't want to go to graduate school in museum studies -or- library
science
3. I'm surprisingly good at Chinese
4. The prediction I made when I was 16 that I'd do something fun for a
while and then end up working as a computer programmer is currently
coming true (I'm coding the website for a travel company)

-M

[[email protected]]

Bill Baka wrote:

> Let's make it simple.
> You build it (In China) and nobody will come.
> I don't care where you live, I don't do Communist countries.
> Funny how we are kissing China's butt, yet ignoring Cuba.
> Of course you could have it built there and sent here with a huge "Made
> in China" sticker like everything else.

What ever gave you the impression that China was Communist?

I mean, just because the ruling party is the Communists doesn't
actually mean the government or the political system or economy or the
day to day of well _anything_ is Communist.

Besides which I'm not building it (and neither are the 63,600
bricklayers of the earlier part of this thread), I'm helping the person
who wants to convince the appropriate people that it ought to be built
get a better idea of how much money he ought to ask for.

-M