Secrets of Warm Toes?

[oughtfour]

Can anyone explain to me how to keep my new toe warmers from falling off
my shoes?

These things http://tinyurl.com/yzlq4u have no hooks or flaps or ties to
tighten. They do not slip over the tongue of the shoe or fasten to the
laces or anything like that that I can see.

What they do is fall off when I have to make a stop for traffic.

Do these ever work? I could really use something that does.

It was about 32 degrees on my ride yesterday but I was warm
enough--except for my toes.

[Ron Hardin]

88% wool socks
http://www.gemplers.com/a/shop/product.asp?T1=G20111-L

Cathartt A-111 sock. Works for me.

Keep it moth-protected in the summer.

--
Ron Hardin


On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

[rms]

Better to get the ones that have a strap that goes under the shoe. I got
these http://stores.channeladvisor.com/ebikestop/items/004-FC2066
as they fit over my running shoes (with much effort) whereas most biking
shoecovers *will not* fit over any oversize shoe. REI carried the XL size
tho it's not on their site that I can see.

rms

[rms]

Also, this thread
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=242569
recommends these
http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=84552444261 8318&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302692723&bmUID=1163047920768

which look very interesting to me. My neoprene Gators work, but make feet
very sweaty.

rms

[sally]

oughtfour > wrote in news:YLvlh.2511$5q6.52@trndny02:
> Can anyone explain to me how to keep my new toe warmers from falling off
> my shoes?

I love toe warmers. They are lightweight and don't overheat your feet like
full booties. If yours are falling off, they are probably too big. Try a
smaller size.

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> Can anyone explain to me how to keep my new toe warmers from falling off
> my shoes?
>
> These things http://tinyurl.com/yzlq4u have no hooks or flaps or ties to
> tighten. They do not slip over the tongue of the shoe or fasten to the
> laces or anything like that that I can see.


They're made for clipless pedals; the shoe/pedal engagement prevents them
from falling off.

By the way, my toes don't keep secrets from me. They let me know when
they're cold.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


"oughtfour" > wrote in message
news:YLvlh.2511$5q6.52@trndny02...
> Can anyone explain to me how to keep my new toe warmers from falling off
> my shoes?
>
> These things http://tinyurl.com/yzlq4u have no hooks or flaps or ties to
> tighten. They do not slip over the tongue of the shoe or fasten to the
> laces or anything like that that I can see.
>
> What they do is fall off when I have to make a stop for traffic.
>
> Do these ever work? I could really use something that does.
>
> It was about 32 degrees on my ride yesterday but I was warm enough--except
> for my toes.

[bfd]

"sally" > wrote in message
...
> oughtfour > wrote in news:YLvlh.2511$5q6.52@trndny02:
>> Can anyone explain to me how to keep my new toe warmers from falling off
>> my shoes?
>
> I love toe warmers. They are lightweight and don't overheat your feet
> like
> full booties. If yours are falling off, they are probably too big. Try a
> smaller size.

Another tip - try WOOL socks, it works!

[oughtfour]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

> They're made for clipless pedals; the shoe/pedal engagement prevents them
> from falling off.

Too high-tech for me. In any case what keeps them on when you have to
stop--and take your foot off the pedal--for traffic? Which is what
happened to me. Then they fell off.

So I guess I should just return these puppies. Or get some duct tape.

Thanks everyone!

[sally]

oughtfour > wrote in news:sUElh.2739$5q6.2500@trndny02:
>> They're made for clipless pedals; the shoe/pedal engagement prevents them
>> from falling off.
>
> Too high-tech for me.

Try the Garneau toe warmers that have a strap that wraps around the back of
your shoe.

[Pat]

>
>> They're made for clipless pedals; the shoe/pedal engagement prevents them
>> from falling off.
>
> Too high-tech for me. In any case what keeps them on when you have to
> stop--and take your foot off the pedal--for traffic? Which is what
> happened to me. Then they fell off.
>
> So I guess I should just return these puppies. Or get some duct tape.
>
> Thanks everyone!

I was going to go with my favorite, JB Weld, but then I decided to just
offer this: make your own strap for around the heel. It shouldn't be too
difficult. If nothing else, you could glue some shoe laces to them and tie
in a knot around your heel. Hell, you could even staple the end of the shoe
laces to the toe warmers....

Pat

[Doc O'Leary]

In article <YLvlh.2511$5q6.52@trndny02>, oughtfour >
wrote:

> Can anyone explain to me how to keep my new toe warmers from falling off
> my shoes?

Next time, buy a full cover.

> Do these ever work? I could really use something that does.
>
> It was about 32 degrees on my ride yesterday but I was warm
> enough--except for my toes.

The question is *why* your toes get cold. It may be more of a
circulation issue than losses through the shoe. It certainly doesn't
hurt to add a wool layer and use a cover to trap heat, but keeping good
circulation (especially when your core is only "warm enough") is fairly
important, too.

--
My personal UDP list: 127.0.0.1, 4ax.com, buzzardnews.com, googlegroups.com,
heapnode.com, localhost, x-privat.org

[H M Leary]

In article >,
Ron Hardin > wrote:

> 88% wool socks
> http://www.gemplers.com/a/shop/product.asp?T1=G20111-L
>
> Cathartt A-111 sock. Works for me.
>
> Keep it moth-protected in the summer.

Wool socks are great, I agree.

I learned from Nordic skiing that tp keep the extremities warm, keep the
head warm. Since the brain controls circulation, it will keep itself
warm at the expense of all else.

Good luck
Happy New Year

[Richard B]

"bfd" > wrote in
:

>
> "sally" > wrote in message
> ...
>> oughtfour > wrote in
>> news:YLvlh.2511$5q6.52@trndny02:
>>> Can anyone explain to me how to keep my new toe warmers from falling
>>> off my shoes?
>>
>> I love toe warmers. They are lightweight and don't overheat your
>> feet like
>> full booties. If yours are falling off, they are probably too big.
>> Try a smaller size.
>
> Another tip - try WOOL socks, it works!
>
>

As for wool socks try Alpaca wool socks.
Dahlgren Alpaca wool socks are really comfortable,I now use them for
cycling constantly. I am in So Cal so it doesn't get terribly cold here
but last week I was cycling to work at 38 degrees, I put on my short
Alpaca socks and added a pair of cotton socks over them and my feet
stayed toasty over the entire 10 mile commute.

I was first introduced to Alpaca socks when I was given some Dahlgren
Aplaca backpacking socks by my brother in law (who knows the people who
sell them). I liked them so much I decided to try some for cycling so I
asked my brother in law to see if they had cycling socks. The socks he
provided look alot like the short cross training socks listed on the
website but those are only listed in white, the pairs he gave me are
green and blue, so they may actually have other other lines of socks
that are not posted on the website, you will probably have to contact
them to ask.

Here is a site that you see what they offer.
http://www.dahlgrenfootwear.com/


Richard B.

[oughtfour]

Doc O'Leary wrote:
> The question is *why* your toes get cold. It may be more of a
> circulation issue than losses through the shoe.

I'm sure that is part of it. Perhaps even aggravated by my new
extra-thick wool socks, which make for a tight fit inside my bike shoes.

The toe warmers fell off at the start of the ride, but my feet were nice
and warm until the second half, when I turned into the wind to return
home. So I think it was the wind that did it, and that a wind shield on
the ends of my shoes would be just the thing.

What if anything can I do to improve circulation?

[just another biker]

Shoes with enough room for circulation work for me, and I'll throw the
old cheap folding closure baggies over each sock. Works great. Wool
socks and neoprene booties for near zero. Thin wool gives more room and
can be layered with something else.

oughtfour wrote:
> Doc O'Leary wrote:
> > The question is *why* your toes get cold. It may be more of a
> > circulation issue than losses through the shoe.
>
> I'm sure that is part of it. Perhaps even aggravated by my new
> extra-thick wool socks, which make for a tight fit inside my bike shoes.
>
> The toe warmers fell off at the start of the ride, but my feet were nice
> and warm until the second half, when I turned into the wind to return
> home. So I think it was the wind that did it, and that a wind shield on
> the ends of my shoes would be just the thing.
>
> What if anything can I do to improve circulation?

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
Richard B > writes:

>> Another tip - try WOOL socks, it works!
>>
>>
>
> As for wool socks try Alpaca wool socks.

I recently got a hearty endorsement of alpaca wool
from my brother, to whom his Peruvian new neighbours/
friends gave a pair of gloves, a toque, and a blanket
made of the stuff. It appears to be a finer fibre than
sheeps' wool, and correspondingly weaves "tighter."
It's almost like felt.

> Here is a site that you see what they offer.
> http://www.dahlgrenfootwear.com/

It's good to know these are available. Thank you
for providing this information.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[[email protected]]

Tom Keats > writes:

>> As for wool socks try Alpaca wool socks.

> I recently got a hearty endorsement of alpaca wool from my brother,
> to whom his Peruvian new neighbours/ friends gave a pair of gloves,
> a toque, and a blanket made of the stuff. It appears to be a finer
> fibre than sheeps' wool, and correspondingly weaves "tighter." It's
> almost like felt.

>> Here is a site that you see what they offer.

http://www.dahlgrenfootwear.com/

> It's good to know these are available. Thank you for providing this
> information.

I think warm toast is best just as it comes out of the toaster. Don't
try to keep it warm.

Jobst Brandt

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
writes:
> Tom Keats > writes:
>
>>> As for wool socks try Alpaca wool socks.
>
>> I recently got a hearty endorsement of alpaca wool from my brother,
>> to whom his Peruvian new neighbours/ friends gave a pair of gloves,
>> a toque, and a blanket made of the stuff. It appears to be a finer
>> fibre than sheeps' wool, and correspondingly weaves "tighter." It's
>> almost like felt.
>
>>> Here is a site that you see what they offer.
>
> http://www.dahlgrenfootwear.com/
>
>> It's good to know these are available. Thank you for providing this
>> information.
>
> I think warm toast is best just as it comes out of the toaster. Don't
> try to keep it warm.

I like to warm my gloves on our gas furnace's plenum or
hot-air duct for a while just before I head out into the
wintery chill. Maybe a similar tactic would work with socks.

My thus-warmed gloves will stay warm for as long as I keep them
on. But if I take them off outdoors & mid-ride, the warmth is
immediately lost. Then I've got to stick them under my arms or
under my waistband, to warm them up again with body heat. And
that can take some time. It feels funny, too. As a Reynaud's
Syndrome sufferer, I /need/ to get those glove warm. Fortunately
for me, I mostly feel the effects in my fingertips, which I can
curl around the handlebar, away from the wind's chill. Folks who
get it in their toes don't enjoy such luxury.

Maybe a fencepost doesn't experience wind chill, but people
with Reynaud's certainly do.

I like my toast to be soft, too. Friable toast is ruined.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Earl Bollinger]

"oughtfour" > wrote in message
news:YLvlh.2511$5q6.52@trndny02...
> Can anyone explain to me how to keep my new toe warmers from falling off
> my shoes?
>
> These things http://tinyurl.com/yzlq4u have no hooks or flaps or ties to
> tighten. They do not slip over the tongue of the shoe or fasten to the
> laces or anything like that that I can see.
>
> What they do is fall off when I have to make a stop for traffic.
>
> Do these ever work? I could really use something that does.
>
> It was about 32 degrees on my ride yesterday but I was warm enough--except
> for my toes.

My toe covers have a strap that goes all the way behind the shoe to help
hold them on, no problem.
It sounds like they aren't meant for your particular shoe design or they are
too big.
A rubber band might work.
You could use some duct tape. But I found that duct taping over the vents
works just as well too.
Thus no need for a toe cover.

[Zoot Katz]

On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 15:17:26 -0800, (Tom
Keats) wrote:

>>
>> As for wool socks try Alpaca wool socks.
>
>I recently got a hearty endorsement of alpaca wool
>from my brother, to whom his Peruvian new neighbours/
>friends gave a pair of gloves, a toque, and a blanket
>made of the stuff. It appears to be a finer fibre than
>sheeps' wool, and correspondingly weaves "tighter."
>It's almost like felt.

I still don't remember losing an alpaca toque but I've searched for
it many times. It was early seventies hippy import stuff made of
panels woven on a primitive foot loom. I used it extensively during
forays into the alpine. Damn near waterproof. It looked a bit like a
psilocybe cap in both colour and shape.

I had a double-breasted 50's era alpaca greatcoat that I gave to
Louis in Montreal.

I still have a genuine Cowichan sweater from the same era that is
still perfect outer wear in our typical air borne dampness. It's
thick, hand-spun sheep wool and its 3 colours are natural. I renew
the lavender sprigs occasionally but don't wear it much anymore.
--
zk

[Zoot Katz]

On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 19:43:09 GMT, oughtfour >
wrote:

>What if anything can I do to improve circulation?

Use cayenne, sparingly, as your foot powder.
--
zk

[Richard B]

(Tom Keats) wrote in
:

> In article >,
> Richard B > writes:
>
>>> Another tip - try WOOL socks, it works!
>>>
>>>
>>
>> As for wool socks try Alpaca wool socks.
>
> I recently got a hearty endorsement of alpaca wool
> from my brother, to whom his Peruvian new neighbours/
> friends gave a pair of gloves, a toque, and a blanket
> made of the stuff. It appears to be a finer fibre than
> sheeps' wool, and correspondingly weaves "tighter."
> It's almost like felt.
>
>> Here is a site that you see what they offer.
>> http://www.dahlgrenfootwear.com/
>
> It's good to know these are available. Thank you
> for providing this information.
>
>
> cheers,
> Tom
>

I was looking around the Dahlgren website and I found the socks I was
given... http://tinyurl.com/y7qcmx
These are the Outdoor XT model.
MSRP $14.00


Richard B.

[Doc O'Leary]

In article <hpUlh.2729$xu4.438@trndny07>,
oughtfour > wrote:

> Doc O'Leary wrote:
> > The question is *why* your toes get cold. It may be more of a
> > circulation issue than losses through the shoe.
>
> I'm sure that is part of it. Perhaps even aggravated by my new
> extra-thick wool socks, which make for a tight fit inside my bike shoes.

Yeah, if you don't have shoes that can be comfortably sized for the
extra layer it often makes the most sense to get a full cover.

> What if anything can I do to improve circulation?

Keep your core and head at better than "warm enough" is a good start.
You want your body to consider the extremities as radiators to dump heat
instead of considering them expendable to frostbite. Stretching a bit
during the ride (if you can) or otherwise keeping your muscles loose
will help some.

--
My personal UDP list: 127.0.0.1, 4ax.com, buzzardnews.com, googlegroups.com,
heapnode.com, localhost, x-privat.org

[nash]

Did you see this about Reynaud's
http://www.adventuresportsonline.com/raynaudshelp.htm

The hot packs sound like a good idea.
The have slippers now with gel pads you can heat up.
If you slipped them in your bike footwear your feet would be warm. Or in
your gloves too.

[nash]

"Zoot Katz" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 19:43:09 GMT, oughtfour >
> wrote:
>
>>What if anything can I do to improve circulation?
>
> Use cayenne, sparingly, as your foot powder.
> --
> zk

Have you tried it?

[mike vore]

I've ridden (9mi each way commute) in temperatures as low as 25F with no
problem, and no problems with cold feet. The secret - forget my toes, just
keep the blood warm on the way to the feet. I wear 1 pair of light dress
socks, Lycra long-johns (pixie pants), and a pair of long Cross Country Ski
Socks. They come up almost to the knees and you can get them in all colors, or
plain old black. As an experiment I rolled one sock down to the top of my
shoes, rode 3 miles - and the toes on that foot were definitely cold - but the
others were nice and warm.

--
Mike Vore
http://www.OhMyWoodness.com
http://mike.vorefamily.net/twr

[VBadJuJu]

oughtfour > wrote:

>Can anyone explain to me how to keep my new toe warmers from falling off
>my shoes?
>
>These things http://tinyurl.com/yzlq4u have no hooks or flaps or ties to
>tighten. They do not slip over the tongue of the shoe or fasten to the
>laces or anything like that that I can see.
>
Nashy had these on sale
http://www.nashbar.com/profile_moreimages.cfm?category=&subcategory=&sku=6362&brand=0732
and I was suprised how well they work. I dont usually ride if the
temp is below 41, but 2 pr socks and the footies has worked great (so
far).

Could you get wifey to sew some elastic backstrap onto yours?

[dgk]

On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 15:40:40 GMT, oughtfour >
wrote:

>Can anyone explain to me how to keep my new toe warmers from falling off
>my shoes?
>
>These things http://tinyurl.com/yzlq4u have no hooks or flaps or ties to
>tighten. They do not slip over the tongue of the shoe or fasten to the
>laces or anything like that that I can see.
>
>What they do is fall off when I have to make a stop for traffic.
>
>Do these ever work? I could really use something that does.
>
>It was about 32 degrees on my ride yesterday but I was warm
>enough--except for my toes.

I cheated. I bought the Hotronic foot warmers. It's really meant for
all day skiing but it seems to work very well for biking. Then again,
it's hardly been a fair test this year since it hardly goes under 40
in NYC these days.

[dgk]

On Mon, 01 Jan 2007 19:25:59 GMT, mike vore > wrote:

>I've ridden (9mi each way commute) in temperatures as low as 25F with no
>problem, and no problems with cold feet. The secret - forget my toes, just
>keep the blood warm on the way to the feet. I wear 1 pair of light dress
>socks, Lycra long-johns (pixie pants), and a pair of long Cross Country Ski
>Socks. They come up almost to the knees and you can get them in all colors, or
>plain old black. As an experiment I rolled one sock down to the top of my
>shoes, rode 3 miles - and the toes on that foot were definitely cold - but the
>others were nice and warm.

I think the 9 miles isn't long enough. My commute is 15 each way, and
my toes are pretty much fine until the last few miles. Then they start
freezing.

[Stephen Harding]

dgk wrote:

> I think the 9 miles isn't long enough. My commute is 15 each way, and
> my toes are pretty much fine until the last few miles. Then they start
> freezing.

My commute is 11 miles each way and my feet are pretty well frozen
by the time I get to work in 45-50 minutes.

However, I think they're actually starting to warm up again by that
time (temperature decrease of toes has bottomed out). If I rode a
longer route, I think they might actually start to warm.

This happens with my hands where my fingers are at their max cold
(cold enough to be aching on thawing) after about 20 minutes. The
remainder of the commute they are warming up.

This is the case at and below about 10-15F. Above this temperature,
both hands and feet don't generally get cold enough to be aching on
warmup.


SMH

[dgk]

On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 16:34:55 GMT, Stephen Harding
> wrote:

>dgk wrote:
>
>> I think the 9 miles isn't long enough. My commute is 15 each way, and
>> my toes are pretty much fine until the last few miles. Then they start
>> freezing.
>
>My commute is 11 miles each way and my feet are pretty well frozen
>by the time I get to work in 45-50 minutes.
>
>However, I think they're actually starting to warm up again by that
>time (temperature decrease of toes has bottomed out). If I rode a
>longer route, I think they might actually start to warm.
>
>This happens with my hands where my fingers are at their max cold
>(cold enough to be aching on thawing) after about 20 minutes. The
>remainder of the commute they are warming up.
>
>This is the case at and below about 10-15F. Above this temperature,
>both hands and feet don't generally get cold enough to be aching on
>warmup.
>
>
>SMH

Are you sure that they're warming up and not numbing?

[Stephen Harding]

dgk wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 16:34:55 GMT, Stephen Harding
> > wrote:
>
>
>>dgk wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I think the 9 miles isn't long enough. My commute is 15 each way, and
>>>my toes are pretty much fine until the last few miles. Then they start
>>>freezing.
>>
>>My commute is 11 miles each way and my feet are pretty well frozen
>>by the time I get to work in 45-50 minutes.
>>
>>However, I think they're actually starting to warm up again by that
>>time (temperature decrease of toes has bottomed out). If I rode a
>>longer route, I think they might actually start to warm.
>>
>>This happens with my hands where my fingers are at their max cold
>>(cold enough to be aching on thawing) after about 20 minutes. The
>>remainder of the commute they are warming up.
>>
>>This is the case at and below about 10-15F. Above this temperature,
>>both hands and feet don't generally get cold enough to be aching on
>>warmup.
>>
>>
>>SMH
>
>
> Are you sure that they're warming up and not numbing?

Both hands and feet are cold and numb at some point during
my really cold weather commutes.

The hands definitely start to warm up again after 20-25 minutes.

I can't really tell if the feet are. They don't seem to get
worse beyond 45-50 minutes in extreme cold, and actually seem to
be getting better (i.e. warmer).


SMH

[dgk]

On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 22:15:39 GMT, Stephen Harding
> wrote:

>dgk wrote:
>> On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 16:34:55 GMT, Stephen Harding
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>dgk wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I think the 9 miles isn't long enough. My commute is 15 each way, and
>>>>my toes are pretty much fine until the last few miles. Then they start
>>>>freezing.
>>>
>>>My commute is 11 miles each way and my feet are pretty well frozen
>>>by the time I get to work in 45-50 minutes.
>>>
>>>However, I think they're actually starting to warm up again by that
>>>time (temperature decrease of toes has bottomed out). If I rode a
>>>longer route, I think they might actually start to warm.
>>>
>>>This happens with my hands where my fingers are at their max cold
>>>(cold enough to be aching on thawing) after about 20 minutes. The
>>>remainder of the commute they are warming up.
>>>
>>>This is the case at and below about 10-15F. Above this temperature,
>>>both hands and feet don't generally get cold enough to be aching on
>>>warmup.
>>>
>>>
>>>SMH
>>
>>
>> Are you sure that they're warming up and not numbing?
>
>Both hands and feet are cold and numb at some point during
>my really cold weather commutes.
>
>The hands definitely start to warm up again after 20-25 minutes.
>
>I can't really tell if the feet are. They don't seem to get
>worse beyond 45-50 minutes in extreme cold, and actually seem to
>be getting better (i.e. warmer).
>
>
>SMH

Hopefully that is all behind me with the Hotronic foot warmers. Maybe
it will get cold enough this winter to find out. However, it's going
to be near 60 tomorrow so that won't do it. (NYC).

[Friar Broccoli]

Tom Keats wrote:
> In article >,
> writes:
> > Tom Keats > writes:
> >
> >>> As for wool socks try Alpaca wool socks.
> >
> >> I recently got a hearty endorsement of alpaca wool from my brother,
> >> to whom his Peruvian new neighbours/ friends gave a pair of gloves,
> >> a toque, and a blanket made of the stuff. It appears to be a finer
> >> fibre than sheeps' wool, and correspondingly weaves "tighter." It's
> >> almost like felt.
> >
> >>> Here is a site that you see what they offer.
> >
> > http://www.dahlgrenfootwear.com/
> >
> >> It's good to know these are available. Thank you for providing this
> >> information.
> >
> > I think warm toast is best just as it comes out of the toaster. Don't
> > try to keep it warm.
>
> I like to warm my gloves on our gas furnace's plenum or
> hot-air duct for a while just before I head out into the
> wintery chill. Maybe a similar tactic would work with socks.
>
> My thus-warmed gloves will stay warm for as long as I keep them
> on. But if I take them off outdoors & mid-ride, the warmth is
> immediately lost. Then I've got to stick them under my arms or
> under my waistband, to warm them up again with body heat. And
> that can take some time. It feels funny, too. As a Reynaud's
> Syndrome sufferer, I /need/ to get those glove warm. Fortunately
> for me, I mostly feel the effects in my fingertips, which I can
> curl around the handlebar, away from the wind's chill. Folks who
> get it in their toes don't enjoy such luxury.
>
> Maybe a fencepost doesn't experience wind chill, but people
> with Reynaud's certainly do.

I cured (or stopped the symptoms) of Raynaud's by applying a
cream containing 20% urea for two months. You can buy creams
containing urea in a drug store.

>
> I like my toast to be soft, too. Friable toast is ruined.
>
>
> cheers,
> Tom
>
> --
> Nothing is safe from me.
> Above address is just a spam midden.
> I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca