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whitfit
July 14th 03, 09:49 PM
When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind
two things; first, Jobst's assertions that tubulars are bad in the
alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear braking in that
situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was
also using an 18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't
seem slowed at all, and he might not have so many broken bones with
them.

Whitfit.

Sheldon Brown
July 14th 03, 10:22 PM
An anonymous poster wrote:

> When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind
> two things; first, Jobst's assertions that tubulars are bad in the
> alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear braking in that
> situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was
> also using an 18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't
> seem slowed at all, and he might not have so many broken bones with
> them.

Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not pause.

I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had
fishtailed. This suggests to me that he may have used his rear brake
when he shouldn't have.

See: http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html

Sheldon "One Brake At A Time" Brown
+---------------------------------------------------------+
| It is good to learn from your mistakes; |
| It is better to learn from the mistakes of others. |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Peter
July 14th 03, 11:02 PM
That's France for you (and other countries in Europe also) Roads less
travelled on get patched up after the winter with gravel and tar (It's
cheaper and quicker propably), It's better than pottholes though.

Peter

"Bill Davidson" > wrote in message
news:JyFQa.23$He.15@fed1read03...
> Sheldon Brown wrote:
> > Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not
pause.
> >
> > I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had
> > fishtailed. This suggests to me that he may have used his rear brake
> > when he shouldn't have.
>
> Yeah. It was a hard right turn on a fast winding descent. He and Lance
> were trying to chase down Vinokourov so they were pushing it. Beloki's
> back wheel slid out way to his left and then slid back to his right and
> he fell down the hill sideways on his right side. It looked very very
> painful. It was a sad thing to see. He was a big part of making this
> year's tour interesting.
>
> The way he slid, it did look like rear braking may have been at fault but
> it's hard to tell for sure.
>
> A lot of people were talking about tar on the road melting and making it
> slippery. Who the hell still uses tar for pavement? I thought that went
> out 50-60 years ago.
>
> At least Lance came out unscathed; though his little cycle cross solution
> to collision avoidance did cost him a little time to Vinokourov (though
> obviously not as much as crashing would have).
>
> --Bill Davidson
> --
> Please remove ".nospam" from my address for email replies.
>

Ronald
July 14th 03, 11:47 PM
> From the photos, it appears that he was riding on clinchers, not tubulars
> (based on what looks very much like a Velox rimstrip on his wheel).

I'm pretty sure they're clinchers, the higher sidewalls are also clearly visible:
http://www.velonews.com/images/details/4520.5461.f.jpg

The tyre getting of the rim is propably the result of the crash and not the cause.


"Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles" > wrote in message
. ..
> From the photos, it appears that he was riding on clinchers, not tubulars
> (based on what looks very much like a Velox rimstrip on his wheel).
>
> --Mike--
> Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReaction.com
>
> "whitfit" > wrote in message
> om...
> > When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind
> > two things; first, Jobst's assertions that tubulars are bad in the
> > alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear braking in that
> > situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was
> > also using an 18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't
> > seem slowed at all, and he might not have so many broken bones with
> > them.
> >
> > Whitfit.
> >
>
>

P. Hardewig
July 15th 03, 12:38 AM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ronald" >
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: Beloki losing rear tire... Tubular problem?


> > From the photos, it appears that he was riding on clinchers, not
tubulars
> > (based on what looks very much like a Velox rimstrip on his wheel).
>
> I'm pretty sure they're clinchers, the higher sidewalls are also clearly
visible:
> http://www.velonews.com/images/details/4520.5461.f.jpg
>
> The tyre getting of the rim is propably the result of the crash and not
the cause.


I think you're right about the clincher tire. I just read the Velonews
account and Armstrong stated that Beloki had locked up his brakes, the rear
wheel started to slide and the tire blew. FWIW, I had the same thing happen
to me about 20 years ago coming into a hard turn after screaming my (then)
185 lbs down a hill near Ft Ancient, OH. By some miracle, I managed to stay
upright, although my Anquetil cleats lost a bit of depth from being used as
outriggers!

Steve Blankenship
July 15th 03, 01:24 AM
"P. Hardewig @fuse.net>" <pjwig<nospam> wrote in message
...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ronald" >
> Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 6:47 PM
> Subject: Re: Beloki losing rear tire... Tubular problem?
>
>
> > > From the photos, it appears that he was riding on clinchers, not
> tubulars
> > > (based on what looks very much like a Velox rimstrip on his wheel).
> >
> > I'm pretty sure they're clinchers, the higher sidewalls are also clearly
> visible:
> > http://www.velonews.com/images/details/4520.5461.f.jpg
> >
> > The tyre getting of the rim is propably the result of the crash and not
> the cause.
>
>
> I think you're right about the clincher tire. I just read the Velonews
> account and Armstrong stated that Beloki had locked up his brakes, the
rear
> wheel started to slide and the tire blew. FWIW, I had the same thing
happen
> to me about 20 years ago coming into a hard turn after screaming my (then)
> 185 lbs down a hill near Ft Ancient, OH. By some miracle, I managed to
stay
> upright, although my Anquetil cleats lost a bit of depth from being used
as
> outriggers!

Doubt very much those are clinchers; the day before they were on carbon-rim
tubulars; see http://www.olntv.com/tdf03/tech2.html for a look. The lighter
strip on the rim is either tire glue or more likely, the tire pulled away
from it's base tape under the strain of the crash and that's what you see.
I rolled a conti sprinter once back when they were prone to doing that, and
the remaining base tape looked just about like that.

I'd be more inclined to blame the notoriously spotty braking manners of
carbon rims. Bad road surface + hard-to-modulate brakes + tires that peel
off when you get 'em sideways = big ouch. Just speculation of course, but
it wouldn't be the first time that compromising function for light weight
put a rider on the deck. Just ask Tyler...

As an aside, this is the first year Beloki hasn't used a 650-wheeled bike in
the mountains. Last year when they first rode the carbon TCR's, he was the
only guy on Once to still use a special aluminum bike with smaller wheels on
the climbing stages - a holdover from the days of Jalabert, who used them in
the mountains until his retirement.

Chris Zacho The Wheelman
July 15th 03, 01:47 AM
From what I heard after the fact, from Phil & Paul, was that Beloky
started to slide on a soft patch of tar and panic-braked (both wheels) I
was watching the 5 PM replay, so they had more info at this time.

The rear tire blew and came off (very likely, especially if he was on
clinchers). The bare rim dug into the tar, causing a violent reverse
fishtail which hurled him over the handlebars, as he was unable to
compensate in time.

This is what it looked like what happened. In the slo-mo, you can see
him sliding, a rear wheel slide which he is in control over. Then the
tire comes off, the bike whips back and he goes head over handlebars.

May you have the wind at your back.
And a really low gear for the hills!
Chris

Chris'Z Corner
"The Website for the Common Bicyclist":
http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

Tim McNamara
July 15th 03, 02:59 AM
In article >,
Sheldon Brown > wrote:

> An anonymous poster wrote:
>
> > When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind
> > two things; first, Jobst's assertions that tubulars are bad in the
> > alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear braking in that
> > situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was
> > also using an 18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't
> > seem slowed at all, and he might not have so many broken bones with
> > them.

Big Mig used clinchers in the mountains, presumably for this reason as
a large and heavy rider he was going to be braking hard.

> Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not pause.
>
> I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had
> fishtailed. This suggests to me that he may have used his rear brake
> when he shouldn't have.

The video clip I saw on the evening news showed a dramatic fishtail-
almost sideways in one direction, then the other, and *boom* he hit
the pavement hard. Followed by Armstrong plowing off the road and
through a field basically down the fall line, then hopping off the
bike and running onto the road and remounting. Not quite with the
smooth cyclo-cross style of, say, Daniele Pontoni or Adri van der
Poel, but entertaining none the less. He must have been ****ting
bricks!

Tim McNamara
July 15th 03, 03:00 AM
In article <JyFQa.23$He.15@fed1read03>,
Bill Davidson > wrote:

> A lot of people were talking about tar on the road melting and
> making it slippery. Who the hell still uses tar for pavement? I
> thought that went out 50-60 years ago

When I was in the Alps last summer, it looked like the seam patches
were tar with some sort of greenish sand on top rather than asphalt
mix.

Jim Edgar
July 15th 03, 03:05 AM
Sheldon Brown at wrote on 7/14/03 2:22 PM:

> An anonymous poster wrote:
>
>> When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind
>> two things; first, Jobst's assertions that tubulars are bad in the
>> alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear braking in that
>> situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was
>> also using an 18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't
>> seem slowed at all, and he might not have so many broken bones with
>> them.
>
> Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not pause.
>
> I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had
> fishtailed. This suggests to me that he may have used his rear brake
> when he shouldn't have.

Hard to say, as the footage was all from the helicopter. It was, however, a
brutal crash - went down hard on his leg/hip, slid for way too long on his
elbow and whip-snapped his shoulder and head down onto the pavement.

Reports have him with a broken femur and elbow.

How it appeared on the OLN feed this AM:

Vino was about 15 seconds ahead at the crest of the hill, and was descending
like a madman. Reported ambient temps were low-to-mid-90's (F). Comments
had been made about the "softness" of the French roads in this region.

Beloki was leading Armstrong, who had five or six riders behind him. The
verbal time gap was given as 13 seconds.

Vinokourov approaches the "double bowknot" set of horseshoe turns on fairly
narrow roads. This will be where Beloki goes down. The screen computer
shows a 10 second gap.

The moto camera was behind Vinokourov as he went through that section - you
can see very shiny spots on the roadway as Vino speeds through the 90 degree
left before the double bowknot. Phil states that you can see the melted
spots in the roadway, and as Vino makes it through continues, "..that was a
rather dodgy corner". The moto camera seems to slow and shift a bit, as
the cameraman has trouble keep Vino in the frame.

Then the problems begin.

Armstrong seems to drop back from Beloki, who continues pressing into the
turn. As he begins to set for the turn he is closer to the center of the
road than Armstrong.

He fishtales left, and Armstrong begins to make up ground, as though Beloki
has hit the brakes.

The skid continues, rear tire breaking further to his left until it is
obscured by Beloki's seated body. The bike seems to continue sliding out to
the left, as evidenced by his body english. He has the front of the bike
pointed well to recover, although it isn't clear he would make the turn at
this point.

While the rear wheel is behind his body (bike angled maybe 30-40 degrees),
the tire appears behind him. It has come off the rim at this point.
Definitely moves off the rim and is visible as a separate object.

The rear rim must've dug in, as at this point, it becomes airborne, swinging
through the air to a nearly 30 degree angle to the right of Beloki. It
knifes down into the tarmac and the bike's forward motion is arrested.

At this point, the bike swings over the rear rim, Beloki comes down hard on
his right leg and the damage progresses.

Armstrong in a post race interviews described Beloki as hitting the brakes
hard, then locking up the rear, then rolling the tire, which seems
consistent with the images.

Sad, sad stuff....

-- Jim

http://www.cyclfiend.com
http://lists.cyclofiend.com/mailman/listinfo/race-report

DiabloScott
July 15th 03, 04:10 AM
Jim Edgar wrote:
> Sheldon Brown at wrote on 7/14/03 2:22 PM:
> > An anonymous poster wrote:
> >
> >> When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to
> >> mind two things; first, Jobst's assertions that tubulars are bad in
> >> the alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear braking in
> >> that situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He
> >> was also using an 18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers
> >> don't seem slowed at all, and he might not have so many broken bones
> >> with them.
> >
> > Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect,
> > not pause.
> >
> > I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had
> > fishtailed. This suggests to me that he may have used his rear brake
> > when he shouldn't have.
> Hard to say, as the footage was all from the helicopter. It was,
> however, a brutal crash - went down hard on his leg/hip, slid for way
> too long on his elbow and whip-snapped his shoulder and head down onto
> the pavement.
> Reports have him with a broken femur and elbow.
> How it appeared on the OLN feed this AM:
> Vino was about 15 seconds ahead at the crest of the hill, and was
> descending like a madman. Reported ambient temps were low-to-mid-90's
> (F). Comments had been made about the "softness" of the French roads in
> this region.
> Beloki was leading Armstrong, who had five or six riders behind him. The
> verbal time gap was given as 13 seconds.
> Vinokourov approaches the "double bowknot" set of horseshoe turns on
> fairly narrow roads. This will be where Beloki goes down. The screen
> computer shows a 10 second gap.
> The moto camera was behind Vinokourov as he went through that section -
> you can see very shiny spots on the roadway as Vino speeds through the
> 90 degree left before the double bowknot. Phil states that you can see
> the melted spots in the roadway, and as Vino makes it through continues,
> "..that was a rather dodgy corner". The moto camera seems to slow and
> shift a bit, as the cameraman has trouble keep Vino in the frame.
> Then the problems begin.
> Armstrong seems to drop back from Beloki, who continues pressing into
> the turn. As he begins to set for the turn he is closer to the center of
> the road than Armstrong.
> He fishtales left, and Armstrong begins to make up ground, as though
> Beloki has hit the brakes.
> The skid continues, rear tire breaking further to his left until it is
> obscured by Beloki's seated body. The bike seems to continue sliding out
> to the left, as evidenced by his body english. He has the front of the
> bike pointed well to recover, although it isn't clear he would make the
> turn at this point.
> While the rear wheel is behind his body (bike angled maybe 30-40
> degrees), the tire appears behind him. It has come off the rim at this
> point. Definitely moves off the rim and is visible as a separate object.
> The rear rim must've dug in, as at this point, it becomes airborne,
> swinging through the air to a nearly 30 degree angle to the right of
> Beloki. It knifes down into the tarmac and the bike's forward motion
> is arrested.
> At this point, the bike swings over the rear rim, Beloki comes down hard
> on his right leg and the damage progresses.
> Armstrong in a post race interviews described Beloki as hitting the
> brakes hard, then locking up the rear, then rolling the tire, which
> seems consistent with the images.
> Sad, sad stuff....
> -- Jim
> http://www.cyclfiend.com/http://www.cyclfiend.com[/url] http://lists.cy-
> clofiend.com/mailman/listinfo/race-report"]http://lists.cyclofiend.com/-
> mailman/listinfo/race-report



Armstrong said in his interview with Frankie Andreu that Beloki's tire
rolled and THEN it blew up. No way a clincher would do that of course
but Lance might not be remembering everything exactly as it happened
either. I couldn't find who ONCE's tire sponsors are. Some
Michelin-sponsored teams have a deal to only ride clinchers.



--
Check out my bike blog!

http://diabloscott.blogspot.com

>--------------------------<
Posted via cyclingforums.com
http://www.cyclingforums.com

Curt Bousquet
July 15th 03, 04:21 AM
Tim McNamara > wrote let it be known in
:

> Followed by Armstrong plowing off the road and
> through a field basically down the fall line, then hopping
> off the bike and running onto the road and remounting. Not
> quite with the smooth cyclo-cross style of, say, Daniele
> Pontoni or Adri van der Poel, but entertaining none the
> less. He must have been ****ting bricks!

Did you catch the post-race interview with Lance? He was asked
if he had done any cyclo-cross racing this year. His answer was
'Just one race, plus today makes two'.

:)



--

Curt Bousquet
moc.enilnacs@PTNN < Reverse for email

Road biking in Southern VT and Western Mass.

My 2003 bike log:
http://www.scanline.com/bikelog/2003.html

Louis Du Brey
July 15th 03, 04:34 AM
The video is available on OLN. Either Widows media or QT

Click http://tdf.olntv.com/ and then on the top right select Video

Louis

"Chris Zacho "The Wheelman"" > wrote in message
...
> From what I heard after the fact, from Phil & Paul, was that Beloky
> started to slide on a soft patch of tar and panic-braked (both wheels) I
> was watching the 5 PM replay, so they had more info at this time.
>
> The rear tire blew and came off (very likely, especially if he was on
> clinchers). The bare rim dug into the tar, causing a violent reverse
> fishtail which hurled him over the handlebars, as he was unable to
> compensate in time.
>
> This is what it looked like what happened. In the slo-mo, you can see
> him sliding, a rear wheel slide which he is in control over. Then the
> tire comes off, the bike whips back and he goes head over handlebars.
>
> May you have the wind at your back.
> And a really low gear for the hills!
> Chris
>
> Chris'Z Corner
> "The Website for the Common Bicyclist":
> http://www.geocities.com/czcorner
>

Sheldon Brown
July 15th 03, 05:46 AM
An anonymous poster wrote:

>>>When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind
>>>two things; first, Jobst's assertions that tubulars are bad in the
>>>alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear braking in that
>>>situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was
>>>also using an 18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't
>>>seem slowed at all, and he might not have so many broken bones with
>>>them.

I commented:

>>Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not pause.
>>
>>I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had
>>fishtailed. This suggests to me that he may have used his rear brake
>>when he shouldn't have.

Jim Edgar wrote:

> Hard to say, as the footage was all from the helicopter. It was, however, a
> brutal crash - went down hard on his leg/hip, slid for way too long on his
> elbow and whip-snapped his shoulder and head down onto the pavement.
>
> Reports have him with a broken femur and elbow.
>
> How it appeared on the OLN feed this AM:
>
> Vino was about 15 seconds ahead at the crest of the hill, and was descending
> like a madman. Reported ambient temps were low-to-mid-90's (F). Comments
> had been made about the "softness" of the French roads in this region.
>
> Beloki was leading Armstrong, who had five or six riders behind him. The
> verbal time gap was given as 13 seconds.
>
> Vinokourov approaches the "double bowknot" set of horseshoe turns on fairly
> narrow roads. This will be where Beloki goes down. The screen computer
> shows a 10 second gap.

I have since had the opportunity to watch this several times in slo-mo.

It appears to me that the skid began _before_ the turn, as Beloki was
trying to slow in preparation for the turn, but he had not begun to
actually lean over into the sharp part of the turn. I believe this
crash would not have happened if he had not used his rear brake.

Lance went over the same pavement, also braking, and didn't fishtail.

> The moto camera was behind Vinokourov as he went through that section - you
> can see very shiny spots on the roadway as Vino speeds through the 90 degree
> left before the double bowknot. Phil states that you can see the melted
> spots in the roadway, and as Vino makes it through continues, "..that was a
> rather dodgy corner". The moto camera seems to slow and shift a bit, as
> the cameraman has trouble keep Vino in the frame.

Do you really believe that Phil Liggett's commentary on the highlights
show is done in real time? I have always assumed that he puts his
script together after the event, matching the footage, which he has
already seen. This isn't the first time I've seen a bit of
foreshadowing in his copy. He's good at his job, so he knows how to
sound surprised nonetheless.

I'm very sorry that Beloki was injured, and wouldn't normally want to
criticize him in a public forum like this, if it weren't for my belief
that this crash offers a valuable lesson to all cyclists on the dangers
of inappropriate use of the rear brake.

Again, for those who tuned in late, here's my article on this important
topic. It might save your life: http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html

Sheldon "Front Brake" Brown
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| The man who never alters his opinions is like standing water, |
| and breeds reptiles of the mind. --William Blake |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Tim McNamara
July 15th 03, 06:39 AM
In article >,
DiabloScott > wrote:

> Armstrong said in his interview with Frankie Andreu that Beloki's
> tire rolled and THEN it blew up. No way a clincher would do that of
> course but Lance might not be remembering everything exactly as it
> happened either.

Yeah, it's not like events were happening quickly or anything! ;-)

Tim McNamara
July 15th 03, 06:43 AM
In article >,
Sheldon Brown > wrote:

> Do you really believe that Phil Liggett's commentary on the
> highlights show is done in real time? I have always assumed that
> he puts his script together after the event, matching the footage,
> which he has already seen. This isn't the first time I've seen a
> bit of foreshadowing in his copy. He's good at his job, so he
> knows how to sound surprised nonetheless.

Liggett and Sherwen sometime mention that they are commentating live,
watching in the press area at the finish on TV monitors. For the
daily TV broadcasts I suspect this is probably the case, and CBS
probably just picked up the video from the UK and edited it.

He does do some overdubbing for the WCP videos, and comes here to
Minnesota for those (or at least used to).

GaryG
July 15th 03, 07:14 AM
"Sheldon Brown" > wrote in message
...
> An anonymous poster wrote:
>
> >>>When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind
> >>>two things; first, Jobst's assertions that tubulars are bad in the
> >>>alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear braking in that
> >>>situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was
> >>>also using an 18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't
> >>>seem slowed at all, and he might not have so many broken bones with
> >>>them.
>
> I commented:
>
> >>Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not
pause.
> >>
> >>I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had
> >>fishtailed. This suggests to me that he may have used his rear brake
> >>when he shouldn't have.
>
> Jim Edgar wrote:
>
> > Hard to say, as the footage was all from the helicopter. It was,
however, a
> > brutal crash - went down hard on his leg/hip, slid for way too long on
his
> > elbow and whip-snapped his shoulder and head down onto the pavement.
> >
> > Reports have him with a broken femur and elbow.
> >
> > How it appeared on the OLN feed this AM:
> >
> > Vino was about 15 seconds ahead at the crest of the hill, and was
descending
> > like a madman. Reported ambient temps were low-to-mid-90's (F).
Comments
> > had been made about the "softness" of the French roads in this region.
> >
> > Beloki was leading Armstrong, who had five or six riders behind him.
The
> > verbal time gap was given as 13 seconds.
> >
> > Vinokourov approaches the "double bowknot" set of horseshoe turns on
fairly
> > narrow roads. This will be where Beloki goes down. The screen computer
> > shows a 10 second gap.
>
> I have since had the opportunity to watch this several times in slo-mo.
>
> It appears to me that the skid began _before_ the turn, as Beloki was
> trying to slow in preparation for the turn, but he had not begun to
> actually lean over into the sharp part of the turn. I believe this
> crash would not have happened if he had not used his rear brake.
>
> Lance went over the same pavement, also braking, and didn't fishtail.
>
> > The moto camera was behind Vinokourov as he went through that section -
you
> > can see very shiny spots on the roadway as Vino speeds through the 90
degree
> > left before the double bowknot. Phil states that you can see the melted
> > spots in the roadway, and as Vino makes it through continues, "..that
was a
> > rather dodgy corner". The moto camera seems to slow and shift a bit,
as
> > the cameraman has trouble keep Vino in the frame.
>
> Do you really believe that Phil Liggett's commentary on the highlights
> show is done in real time? I have always assumed that he puts his
> script together after the event, matching the footage, which he has
> already seen. This isn't the first time I've seen a bit of
> foreshadowing in his copy. He's good at his job, so he knows how to
> sound surprised nonetheless.

I was watching the live coverage this morning, and Phil did indeed make that
comment about the "rather dodgy corner" Vino negotiated, moments before
Beloki's crash. In fact, he had commented several times on earlier descents
about the treacherous nature of the road surface, due to the "bitumen
melting" (although I doubt that was really a contributing factor).

~_-*
....G/ \G
http://www.shastasoftware.com
Developers of CycliStats - Software for Cyclists

>
> I'm very sorry that Beloki was injured, and wouldn't normally want to
> criticize him in a public forum like this, if it weren't for my belief
> that this crash offers a valuable lesson to all cyclists on the dangers
> of inappropriate use of the rear brake.
>
> Again, for those who tuned in late, here's my article on this important
> topic. It might save your life: http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html
>
> Sheldon "Front Brake" Brown
> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+
> | The man who never alters his opinions is like standing water, |
> | and breeds reptiles of the mind. --William Blake |
> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+
> Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
> Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
> http://harriscyclery.com
> Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
> http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
>

Doug
July 15th 03, 08:43 AM
>> From the photos, it appears that he was riding on clinchers, not tubulars
>> (based on what looks very much like a Velox rimstrip on his wheel).
>
>I'm pretty sure they're clinchers, the higher sidewalls are also clearly visible:
>http://www.velonews.com/images/details/4520.5461.f.jpg

That is an amazing shot!

Doug

Benjamin Weiner
July 15th 03, 09:01 AM
Sheldon Brown > wrote:

> Do you really believe that Phil Liggett's commentary on the highlights
> show is done in real time? I have always assumed that he puts his
> script together after the event, matching the footage, which he has
> already seen. This isn't the first time I've seen a bit of
> foreshadowing in his copy. He's good at his job, so he knows how to
> sound surprised nonetheless.

I've watched both the live and evening replay coverage of several
stages and the Phil/Paul voiceover of actual race coverage is
exactly the same. The sequence of intro/outro bits, Frankie
Andreu interludes, etc changes, and they edit out some of the
race to fit into the evening timeslot.

> I'm very sorry that Beloki was injured, and wouldn't normally want to
> criticize him in a public forum like this, if it weren't for my belief
> that this crash offers a valuable lesson to all cyclists on the dangers
> of inappropriate use of the rear brake.

> Again, for those who tuned in late, here's my article on this important
> topic. It might save your life: http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html

I'm sure you're right that he braked and locked up the rear wheel,
esp. as he wasn't very far into the turn. It is possible to skid
the rear on hairpins without rear braking, especially if the road
is slick or loose. At least, I think I've done it, but frankly my
memory is mostly of thinking "Shi-i-i-it!" I have also lost it badly
in a turn due to inappropriate rear braking, but fortunately
low-sided rather than high-sided. Nothing about it felt fortunate
at the time.

Steven L. Sheffield
July 15th 03, 12:39 PM
On 7/14/03 3:51 PM, in article ,
"Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles" > wrote:

> From the photos, it appears that he was riding on clinchers, not tubulars
> (based on what looks very much like a Velox rimstrip on his wheel).


Or a sew-up's base-tape that peeled away from the tire and stuck to the rim.

Peter Cole
July 15th 03, 01:18 PM
"Sheldon Brown" > wrote in message
...
..
>
> It appears to me that the skid began _before_ the turn, as Beloki was
> trying to slow in preparation for the turn, but he had not begun to
> actually lean over into the sharp part of the turn. I believe this
> crash would not have happened if he had not used his rear brake.
>
> Lance went over the same pavement, also braking, and didn't fishtail.

Lance clearly stated that Beloki "locked 'em up" in the turn. He was closest
to him and had a good view of his rear wheel. I also assume he knows what a
rear wheel lockup looks like.

Qui si parla Campagnolo
July 15th 03, 02:06 PM
whitfit-<< When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to
mind
two things; first, Jobst's assertions that tubulars are bad in the
alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear braking in that
situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was
also using an 18mm tire. >><BR><BR>

Pix have shown it to be a clincher....

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Qui si parla Campagnolo
July 15th 03, 02:10 PM
Mike J-<< From the photos, it appears that he was riding on clinchers, not
tubulars
(based on what looks very much like a Velox rimstrip on his wheel). >><BR><BR>

Closeups showed it to be a clincher..from the .racing NG...

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Stergios Papadakis
July 15th 03, 02:40 PM
Benjamin Weiner wrote:
>
> Sheldon Brown > wrote:
>
> > if it weren't for my belief
> > that this crash offers a valuable lesson to all cyclists on the dangers
> > of inappropriate use of the rear brake.
>
> > Again, for those who tuned in late, here's my article on this important
> > topic. It might save your life: http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html
>
> I'm sure you're right that he braked and locked up the rear wheel,
> esp. as he wasn't very far into the turn. It is possible to skid
> the rear on hairpins without rear braking, especially if the road
> is slick or loose.

I'm certain it is possible to skid the rear without any braking.
I did it on a wet road on my commute home just two days ago.
I probably had about 15 lbs in my panniers.

Obviously, if a surface is slippery enough, you can skid without
braking.

Stergios

Joe Riel
July 15th 03, 03:00 PM
(Qui si parla Campagnolo) writes:


> Mike J-<< From the photos, it appears that he was riding on clinchers, not
> tubulars
> (based on what looks very much like a Velox rimstrip on his wheel). >><BR><BR>
>
> Closeups showed it to be a clincher..from the .racing NG...

The picture isn't definitive. However, Lance said that the wheel
exploded; by that I assume he meant he heard the tube violently
rupturing. Does that happen when a tubular is rolled? I wouldn't
expect it. But it definitely occurs when a clincher comes off.

Joe Riel

P.S. Hi Pete---the Ranchos race is this Sunday; we'll discount the
entry fee for a former member.

David L. Johnson
July 15th 03, 03:02 PM
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:39:20 +0000, Steven L. Sheffield wrote:

> On 7/14/03 3:51 PM, in article
> , "Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain
> Reaction Bicycles" > wrote:
>
>> From the photos, it appears that he was riding on clinchers, not
>> tubulars (based on what looks very much like a Velox rimstrip on his
>> wheel).
>
>
> Or a sew-up's base-tape that peeled away from the tire and stuck to the
> rim.

Nah. That would have been pulled away in spots at least. But a decent
tubular, and one would expect he would have them, would not lose its base
tape, and certainly not completely as that would have to have been. It
was a clincher.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | This is my religion. There is no need for temples; no need for
_`\(,_ | complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our
(_)/ (_) | temple. The philosophy is kindness. --The Dalai Lama

Stergios Papadakis
July 15th 03, 03:04 PM
> "Sheldon Brown" > wrote in message
> ...
> .
> >
> > It appears to me that the skid began _before_ the turn, as Beloki was
> > trying to slow in preparation for the turn, but he had not begun to
> > actually lean over into the sharp part of the turn. I believe this
> > crash would not have happened if he had not used his rear brake.
> >
> > Lance went over the same pavement, also braking, and didn't fishtail.
>


I watched the video again, and Lance does skid the rear while
trying to avoid the crash. He gets a little bit sideways while
on the lighter-colored pavement, but his wheel catches again
on the dark patch and he straightens out.

It is most obvious in the "Lance Armstrong talks about the
Stage 9 Beloki Crash, Stage 9 Attacks, and Stage 8 at Alpe d'Huez"
video replay on the oln site.

Stergios

JP
July 15th 03, 04:18 PM
Sheldon Brown > wrote in message >...

> I'm very sorry that Beloki was injured, and wouldn't normally want to
> criticize him in a public forum like this, if it weren't for my belief
> that this crash offers a valuable lesson to all cyclists on the dangers
> of inappropriate use of the rear brake.
>
> Again, for those who tuned in late, here's my article on this important
> topic. It might save your life: http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html

Only problem with this is that locking up the brakes is a reflexive
response to an emergency. Cars, motorcycles, bicycles- when you get
scared you slam your foot or hand down and lock 'em up, not subject to
the intervention of your higher brain which presumably knows better.
Reading articles is a small part of it. Practicing what you read is
the rest.

Ironically, your article suggests that rear braking may have been
appropriate if the corner was slippery. (I'm not sure I agree with
this usually- the front still will give better braking as long as the
brake is properly modulated, unless there is no grab at all from the
front tire, in which case you are porbably going down anyway.) Also,
I'm not sure that 10/10ths riding downhill with the yellow jersey on
the line is where you would dispense with the rear brake altogether,
since even 5% rear braking is of value at that point, but you may very
well be right that he could have gotten through with only the front.
Maybe rear brakes should be banned.

Beloki's problem was probably pushing to hard, to the point where his
reflexes took over, but don't forget also that on a fast, steep,
perhaps slippery downhill, with powerful brakes the rear tire is even
less loaded than usual and relatively easy to lock up. My guess is
that he slammed on both brakes. The two factors may have played into
each other: when his wheel locked up his reflexes kept it that way.
Conversely, Armstrong's dirt experience may have conditioned his
reflexes for the correct braking response.

The problem is to have a braking system that functions properly under
reflexive *and* higher brain control. ABS does this as long as you
learn to slam on the brakes until the ABS kicks in (and not let up
when it does, which seems to also be a reflexive response in most
people) which is the opposite of how you control emergency braking in
a non-ABS car. I could never understand how motorcycle ABS which was
auto-disabled when cornering could work properly- you would have to
develop different (reflexive) braking responses for cornering and
straightup riding.

JP

Mark Hickey
July 15th 03, 04:50 PM
(Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote:

>Pix have shown it to be a clincher....

So there you have it - avoid riding clinchers in the mountains... ;-)

I watched the clip several times in slo-mo, and think it may have
happened a little differently. Here's what I think happened.

The rear tire slid out on slick tar under braking (Beloki
countersteering to keep the bike up). The wheel rotated, constantly
bringing a fresh, unslick portion in contact with the tar. Suddenly
the wheel moves OFF the tar, and the tire hooks up with the road
surface. The lateral force of this both peels the tire off the rim
(at which point the tube explodes), AND vaults the back of the bike
violently up and to the right. There was no way in the world anyone
was going to stay up at that point.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Steve Blankenship
July 15th 03, 05:05 PM
"Mark Hickey" > wrote in message
...
> (Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote:
>
> >Pix have shown it to be a clincher....
>
> So there you have it - avoid riding clinchers in the mountains... ;-)
>
> I watched the clip several times in slo-mo, and think it may have
> happened a little differently. Here's what I think happened.
>
> The rear tire slid out on slick tar under braking (Beloki
> countersteering to keep the bike up). The wheel rotated, constantly
> bringing a fresh, unslick portion in contact with the tar. Suddenly
> the wheel moves OFF the tar, and the tire hooks up with the road
> surface. The lateral force of this both peels the tire off the rim
> (at which point the tube explodes), AND vaults the back of the bike
> violently up and to the right. There was no way in the world anyone
> was going to stay up at that point.
>

Take a look at the following closeup and tell me those are clinchers.
http://www.velonews.com/tour2003/tech/articles/4514.1.html

Look exactly like Campy Hyperon carbon tubular wheels to me.
http://www.campagnolo.com/pics/cerchio_carbon.jpg

The crash shot makes it look sorta like a clincher, but my money says it's
either the tubie's base tape you're seeing or maybe a double-sided tape/glue
alternative like TUFO sells. Either way, I agree about Beloki's chance of
not crashing when the rear tire let go. No hope; shame he didn't luck out
and lowside it.

SB

TC Rider
July 15th 03, 05:25 PM
"Sheldon Brown" > wrote in message
...

> Do you really believe that Phil Liggett's commentary on the highlights
> show is done in real time? I have always assumed that he puts his
> script together after the event, matching the footage, which he has
> already seen. This isn't the first time I've seen a bit of
> foreshadowing in his copy. He's good at his job, so he knows how to
> sound surprised nonetheless.

Yes, I do believe it's done in real-time -- I've been watching the live
broadcasts in the morning and the evening race calls are identical. Phil
called it in advance -- even the corner...

TC

Jim Edgar
July 15th 03, 05:26 PM
Sheldon Brown at wrote on 7/14/03 9:46 PM:

> An anonymous poster wrote:
>
>>>> When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind
>>>> two things; first, Jobst's assertions that tubulars are bad in the
>>>> alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear braking in that
>>>> situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was
>>>> also using an 18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't
>>>> seem slowed at all, and he might not have so many broken bones with
>>>> them.
>
> I commented:
>
>>> Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not pause.
>>>
>>> I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had
>>> fishtailed. This suggests to me that he may have used his rear brake
>>> when he shouldn't have.
>
> Jim Edgar wrote:
>
>> Hard to say, as the footage was all from the helicopter. It was, however, a
>> brutal crash - went down hard on his leg/hip, slid for way too long on his
>> elbow and whip-snapped his shoulder and head down onto the pavement.
>>
>> Reports have him with a broken femur and elbow.
>>
>> How it appeared on the OLN feed this AM:
>>
>> Vino was about 15 seconds ahead at the crest of the hill, and was descending
>> like a madman. Reported ambient temps were low-to-mid-90's (F). Comments
>> had been made about the "softness" of the French roads in this region.
>>
>> Beloki was leading Armstrong, who had five or six riders behind him. The
>> verbal time gap was given as 13 seconds.
>>
>> Vinokourov approaches the "double bowknot" set of horseshoe turns on fairly
>> narrow roads. This will be where Beloki goes down. The screen computer
>> shows a 10 second gap.
>
> I have since had the opportunity to watch this several times in slo-mo.
>
> It appears to me that the skid began _before_ the turn, as Beloki was
> trying to slow in preparation for the turn, but he had not begun to
> actually lean over into the sharp part of the turn. I believe this
> crash would not have happened if he had not used his rear brake.
>
> Lance went over the same pavement, also braking, and didn't fishtail.
>
>> The moto camera was behind Vinokourov as he went through that section - you
>> can see very shiny spots on the roadway as Vino speeds through the 90 degree
>> left before the double bowknot. Phil states that you can see the melted
>> spots in the roadway, and as Vino makes it through continues, "..that was a
>> rather dodgy corner". The moto camera seems to slow and shift a bit, as
>> the cameraman has trouble keep Vino in the frame.
>
> Do you really believe that Phil Liggett's commentary on the highlights
> show is done in real time? I have always assumed that he puts his
> script together after the event, matching the footage, which he has
> already seen. This isn't the first time I've seen a bit of
> foreshadowing in his copy. He's good at his job, so he knows how to
> sound surprised nonetheless.
>

Yeah, I actually do. They claim to be "LIVE" on the AM shows - or maybe I'm
easy to convince at that hour. At the least I think it's reasonably in the
same time frame - maybe 30 seconds to a minute delay at most. Of course,
that would allow plenty of time for the foreshadowing you detect.

Color me niave. ;^)

But, I've also heard him mis-call riders on a regular basis, and I think
they would definitely edit that out, given the chance. Also, with the AM
feeds, there are many periods of dead air, where they seem to be gathering
facts. Also, when they come back from break, you can sometimes hear Paul
Sherwin commenting on what seems to be another broadcast. Plus, they often
interrupt one another mid-sentance, if some key action comes to them over
race radio.

Back in this year's Giro, there was the key race moment when they lost the
feed, and all were rather vexed, resulting in a fine example of one syllable
Anglo-Saxon verbiage which probably got snipped before the evening
broadcast.

They are on a webchat tomorrow at 2 pm ET on OLNTV.com. I'll take an early
lunch and ask them.

-- Jim

Todd Kuzma
July 15th 03, 05:41 PM
Bill Davidson wrote:

> A lot of people were talking about tar on the road melting and making it
> slippery. Who the hell still uses tar for pavement? I thought that went
> out 50-60 years ago.

Nearly all of the township roads in our area are "chip and
seal" roads. The cost of any other type of pavement is
prohibitive for these lightly traveled farm roads.

Todd Kuzma
Heron Bicycles
Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery
LaSalle, Il 815-223-1776
http://www.heronbicycles.com
http://www.tullios.com

Todd Kuzma
July 15th 03, 05:43 PM
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> Mike J-<< From the photos, it appears that he was riding on clinchers, not
> tubulars
> (based on what looks very much like a Velox rimstrip on his wheel). >><BR><BR>
>
> Closeups showed it to be a clincher..from the .racing NG...

The photos aren't clear. The wheels do look like
carbon-rimmed campy tubulars, and the fact that most of the
tire is still seated on the rim after the crash suggests
tubulars. It would very difficult to roll a fully-inflated
clincher.

Todd Kuzma
Heron Bicycles
Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery
LaSalle, Il 815-223-1776
http://www.heronbicycles.com
http://www.tullios.com

Andrew Bradley
July 15th 03, 06:52 PM
Stergios Papadakis:

> I watched the video again, and Lance does skid the rear while
> trying to avoid the crash. He gets a little bit sideways while
> on the lighter-colored pavement, but his wheel catches again
> on the dark patch and he straightens out.

If front brake only is the way, then a lot of racers are getting it
wrong. I speculate that most racers would react with both brakes in an
emergency like that.

Dual pivot brakes on the back are lethal.

Andrew Bradley

Tim McNamara
July 15th 03, 07:57 PM
In article >,
Todd Kuzma > wrote:

> Bill Davidson wrote:
>
> > A lot of people were talking about tar on the road melting and
> > making it slippery. Who the hell still uses tar for pavement?
> > I thought that went out 50-60 years ago.
>
> Nearly all of the township roads in our area are "chip and seal"
> roads. The cost of any other type of pavement is prohibitive for
> these lightly traveled farm roads.

And renewed every few years by spraying a fresh coat of hot tar and
covering with pea gravel, so that farm machinery and other vehicular
traffic will roll it down and make it a road- which really sucks on a
bike! ;-)

Ken
July 15th 03, 08:17 PM
(Andrew Bradley) wrote in
om:
> If front brake only is the way, then a lot of racers are getting it
> wrong. I speculate that most racers would react with both brakes in an
> emergency like that.

Normal procedure in an emergency is to slam on both brakes, then ease up if
you start to skid. Skidding for a fraction of a second is rarely a problem.

Todd Kuzma
July 16th 03, 02:54 AM
Precious Pup wrote:
>
> It was a clincher, blowup of VN pic follows:
>
> http://www.phys.uu.nl/~dronkert/cycling/beloki14072003.jpg

I wish that there was some sort of official confirmation of
what tire he was using. This debate has gone on and on. As
I have pointed out earlier, most of the tire remains on the
rim as a rolled tubular would, and the wheel looks identical
to the Campagnolo Hyperons that Beloki and most of the ONCE
squad are using. They are available only in a tubular version.

The picture above doesn't show the detail necessary to
determine if it is a clincher or tubular.

Todd Kuzma

B a r r y B u r k e J r .
July 16th 03, 12:14 PM
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:41:07 -0500, Todd Kuzma >
wrote:

>Nearly all of the township roads in our area are "chip and
>seal" roads. The cost of any other type of pavement is
>prohibitive for these lightly traveled farm roads.


Chip-seal is pretty popular in New England as well.

Barry

Doug
July 16th 03, 06:25 PM
>> It was a clincher, blowup of VN pic follows:
>>
>> http://www.phys.uu.nl/~dronkert/cycling/beloki14072003.jpg
>
>I wish that there was some sort of official confirmation of
>what tire he was using. This debate has gone on and on. As
>I have pointed out earlier, most of the tire remains on the
>rim as a rolled tubular would, and the wheel looks identical
>to the Campagnolo Hyperons that Beloki and most of the ONCE
>squad are using. They are available only in a tubular version.

Bob Roll's stage 9 column on the olntv.com TdF site implies it was a
clincher. There is a pic of Beloki's stage 8 bike under the
http://tdf.olntv.com/ "tech talk" link. Can you tell if those are
tubie or clincher rims?

Doug

Precious Pup
July 16th 03, 06:25 PM
Todd Kuzma wrote:
>

> The picture above doesn't show the detail necessary to
> determine if it is a clincher or tubular.

Look at the shadow.

Mike Latondresse
July 16th 03, 06:36 PM
Precious Pup > wrote in
:


>
> It was a clincher, blowup of VN pic follows:
>
> http://www.phys.uu.nl/~dronkert/cycling/beloki14072003.jpg
>
>
>
If it is a blown clincher were is the tube? I think if it was a
clincher you would see tube shards hanging out somewhere.

Todd Kuzma
July 16th 03, 07:28 PM
Precious Pup wrote:
>
> Todd Kuzma wrote:
>
>>The picture above doesn't show the detail necessary to
>>determine if it is a clincher or tubular.
>
> Look at the shadow.

Yes, a tubular rim will make a similar shadow.

Todd Kuzma

Raptor
July 16th 03, 07:35 PM
Jay Beattie wrote:
> Beloki may have felt that the pavement was so slippery that he had to
> use his rear break -- or risk skidding his front wheel. I cannot
> believe that a racer of his caliber knows less about braking than we do
> on RBT. I think he made a choice that turned out to be wrong for a
> split second. -- Jay Beattie.

I think most of us have probably been in that situation, bombing a
descent and hitting a corner too hot. You panic for a split-second
which gets your fingers working the brakes right quick, then try to
control your bike through it. If there's a banana peel under your rear
tire at the instant you panic, you end up hurting badly.

It doesn't matter how many miles you have under you, if the desire to go
fast overrides getting to the bottom in one piece at the wrong instant,
you too can kiss the pavement.

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect
our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security."
--Microsoft VP in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

Precious Pup
July 16th 03, 07:43 PM
Mike Latondresse wrote:
>
> Precious Pup > wrote in
> :
>
> >
> > It was a clincher, blowup of VN pic follows:
> >
> > http://www.phys.uu.nl/~dronkert/cycling/beloki14072003.jpg
> >
> >
> >
> If it is a blown clincher were is the tube? I think if it was a
> clincher you would see tube shards hanging out somewhere.

Why?

Steve Blankenship
July 16th 03, 08:19 PM
"Todd Kuzma" > wrote in message
...
> Precious Pup wrote:
> >
> > Todd Kuzma wrote:
> >
> >>The picture above doesn't show the detail necessary to
> >>determine if it is a clincher or tubular.
> >
> > Look at the shadow.
>
> Yes, a tubular rim will make a similar shadow.
>

Give it up, Todd; these guys wouldn't recognize Campy Hyperon wheels if the
whole Once team ran over them with theirs... ;-)

Todd Kuzma
July 16th 03, 09:38 PM
Steve Blankenship wrote:
> "Todd Kuzma" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Precious Pup wrote:
>>
>>>Todd Kuzma wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>The picture above doesn't show the detail necessary to
>>>>determine if it is a clincher or tubular.
>>>
>>>Look at the shadow.
>>
>>Yes, a tubular rim will make a similar shadow.
>>
> Give it up, Todd; these guys wouldn't recognize Campy Hyperon wheels if the
> whole Once team ran over them with theirs... ;-)

Hey, if there is conclusive evidence somewhere that this is
a clincher, I'm willing to concede. However, Beloki and the
rest of the ONCE boys ride Hyperons, the wheels in the
accident pics look just like Hyperons, and I'm not sure why
Beloki would switch to clinchers for the mountains.

Todd Kuzma

Tom Paterson
July 16th 03, 09:44 PM
>From: Todd Kuzma

> Beloki and the
>rest of the ONCE boys ride Hyperons, the wheels in the
>accident pics look just like Hyperons,

So maybe the problem was the white glue or glue strip (can't tell which but the
rim bed has a light color) that let the tire roll off? --Tom Paterson

Steve Blankenship
July 16th 03, 10:35 PM
"Mike Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> << I'm not sure why Beloki would switch to clinchers for the mountains.
>>
>
> Didn't Indurain used to do exactly that on mountain stages to avoid a
scenario
> where he might roll a tire on a long, hot descent?

Yep, well documented. But Beloki and the other Once's haven't. They've
been riding the carbon-rimmed Hyperons in the mountain stages (as published
pics have shown), which are not made in a clincher version. Heck; I'm
surprised no one's brought up the notoriously-grabby braking manners of
carbon rims if they're looking for contributing causes for Beloki's mishap.
Guess maybe not enough people have ridden them to know.

Mike Latondresse
July 16th 03, 10:35 PM
Precious Pup > wrote in
:

>
>
> Mike Latondresse wrote:
>>
>> Precious Pup > wrote in
>> :
>>
>> >
>> > It was a clincher, blowup of VN pic follows:
>> >
>> > http://www.phys.uu.nl/~dronkert/cycling/beloki14072003.jpg
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> If it is a blown clincher were is the tube? I think if it was a
>> clincher you would see tube shards hanging out somewhere.
>
> Why?
>

Because a tubie may still be contained after a blowout while a clincher
that pops off the rim has shreaded bits of tube visible, at least the
two wheels I had that wore through the sidewall and had a blowout did.

Per Elmsäter
July 16th 03, 10:52 PM
Steve Blankenship wrote:
> version. Heck; I'm surprised no one's brought up the
> notoriously-grabby braking manners of carbon rims if they're looking
> for contributing causes for Beloki's mishap. Guess maybe not enough
> people have ridden them to know.

Probably not. tell us about them.
--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

Steve Blankenship
July 16th 03, 11:29 PM
"Per Elmsäter" > wrote in message
...
> Steve Blankenship wrote:
> > version. Heck; I'm surprised no one's brought up the
> > notoriously-grabby braking manners of carbon rims if they're looking
> > for contributing causes for Beloki's mishap. Guess maybe not enough
> > people have ridden them to know.
>
> Probably not. tell us about them.
> --
> Perre
>
> You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

Ever driven a car with warped brake rotors? ;-)

They tend to get hot and grab, making smooth brake modulation an iffy
proposition. Not a good thing when you're on the limit on a sketchy
descent. No personal experience with the latest Campy parts though, so I
can't say if they're as prone to this as others have been. Just wondering.

All that said, Beloki's the only one who crashed, so he likely just
overcooked it - pilot error. But he might have saved it had the tire not
let go, whichever type it was.

Chris Zacho The Wheelman
July 16th 03, 11:45 PM
Has any one asked BELOKI what he was riding? I assume he's alive and
conscious....

May you have the wind at your back.
And a really low gear for the hills!
Chris

Chris'Z Corner
"The Website for the Common Bicyclist":
http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

Chris Zacho The Wheelman
July 16th 03, 11:49 PM
>Beloki may have felt that the pavement
>was so slippery that he had to use his
>rear break -- or risk skidding his front
>wheel. I cannot believe that a racer of
>his caliber knows less about braking than
>we do on RBT. I think he made a choice
>that turned out to be wrong for a split
>second. -- Jay Beattie.

I agree. relying on the FRONT brake in a situation of questionable
traction "is lethal"

May you have the wind at your back.
And a really low gear for the hills!
Chris

Chris'Z Corner
"The Website for the Common Bicyclist":
http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

Precious Pup
July 17th 03, 12:36 AM
Mike Latondresse wrote:
>
> Precious Pup > wrote in
> :
>
> >
> >
> > Mike Latondresse wrote:
> >>
> >> Precious Pup > wrote in
> >> :
> >>
> >> >
> >> > It was a clincher, blowup of VN pic follows:
> >> >
> >> > http://www.phys.uu.nl/~dronkert/cycling/beloki14072003.jpg
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> If it is a blown clincher were is the tube? I think if it was a
> >> clincher you would see tube shards hanging out somewhere.
> >
> > Why?
> >
>
> Because a tubie may still be contained after a blowout while a clincher
> that pops off the rim has shreaded bits of tube visible, at least the
> two wheels I had that wore through the sidewall and had a blowout did.

For my crash, which I described, it was not.

Bikezelbub Smith
July 17th 03, 05:37 AM
Bill Davidson > wrote in message

> Yeah. It was a hard right turn on a fast winding descent. He and Lance
> were trying to chase down Vinokourov so they were pushing it. Beloki's
> back wheel slid out way to his left and then slid back to his right and
> he fell down the hill sideways on his right side. It looked very very
> painful. It was a sad thing to see. He was a big part of making this
> year's tour interesting.
>
> The way he slid, it did look like rear braking may have been at fault but
> it's hard to tell for sure.

I watched the accident on OLN tonight and it appeared to me as
Beloki's rear wheel sliding to the left was caused by braking on the
slick tar, and then he attempted to correct himself by grabbing the
front brake while trying to straighten himself out. This caused his
rear wheel to become airborne, floating rather than sliding back to
the right. The impact of the rear wheel hitting the ground caused both
the tire to roll, and Beloki to be thrown over the bike to the ground.

-zel

James Thomson
July 17th 03, 10:43 AM
"Bikezelbub Smith" > wrote

> I watched the accident on OLN tonight and it appeared to me as
> Beloki's rear wheel sliding to the left was caused by braking on the
> slick tar, and then he attempted to correct himself by grabbing the
> front brake while trying to straighten himself out. This caused his
> rear wheel to become airborne, floating rather than sliding back to
> the right. The impact of the rear wheel hitting the ground caused both
> the tire to roll, and Beloki to be thrown over the bike to the ground.

That's exactly how it appeared to me.

James Thomson

Matt Locker
July 17th 03, 12:58 PM
Here's my take. It's a tubular based on:

1) Most of the tire is still on the rim. A clincher would have slipped
off - especially given the forces of the fall.
2) The part of the tire that's loose from the rim is flattened as though
pinched between two fingers placed on the tread/stitching . A clincher
would probably have restored itself to it's natural state & shape.
This seems to be the natural state for a non-inflated tubular.

MOO,
Matt

Todd Kuzma wrote:

> Precious Pup wrote:
>
>>
>> Todd Kuzma wrote:
>>
>>> The picture above doesn't show the detail necessary to
>>> determine if it is a clincher or tubular.
>>
>>
>> Look at the shadow.
>
>
> Yes, a tubular rim will make a similar shadow.
>
> Todd Kuzma
>

Mark Hickey
July 17th 03, 03:32 PM
(Bikezelbub Smith) wrote:

>I watched the accident on OLN tonight and it appeared to me as
>Beloki's rear wheel sliding to the left was caused by braking on the
>slick tar, and then he attempted to correct himself by grabbing the
>front brake while trying to straighten himself out. This caused his
>rear wheel to become airborne, floating rather than sliding back to
>the right. The impact of the rear wheel hitting the ground caused both
>the tire to roll, and Beloki to be thrown over the bike to the ground.

If the rear wheel lift was caused by too much front brake, the rear
wheel would not have "changed directions", but the initial slide would
have continued (and the rear wheel would have gone past poor ol'
Beloki on the left).

The fact the tire (tubie or clincher) was ripped off the rim by the
"liftoff" indicates that it wasn't due to front braking.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

DiabloScott
July 17th 03, 05:12 PM
Mark Hickey wrote:
> (Bikezelbub Smith) wrote:
> >I watched the accident on OLN tonight and it appeared to me as Beloki's
> >rear wheel sliding to the left was caused by braking on the slick tar,
> >and then he attempted to correct himself by grabbing the front brake
> >while trying to straighten himself out. This caused his rear wheel to
> >become airborne, floating rather than sliding back to the right. The
> >impact of the rear wheel hitting the ground caused both the tire to
> >roll, and Beloki to be thrown over the bike to the ground.
> If the rear wheel lift was caused by too much front brake, the rear
> wheel would not have "changed directions", but the initial slide would
> have continued (and the rear wheel would have gone past poor ol' Beloki
> on the left).
> The fact the tire (tubie or clincher) was ripped off the rim by the
> "liftoff" indicates that it wasn't due to front braking.
> Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles
> http://www.habcycles.com/http://www.habcycles.com Home of the
> $695 ti frame



ProCycling.com is now postulating that the brakes may have become
"stuck" to the carbon rims due to the extreme heat. That would explain
the skid and the blow-off, and it would give the appearance that Joseba
used poor braking technique.



--
Check out my bike blog!

http://diabloscott.blogspot.com

>--------------------------<
Posted via cyclingforums.com
http://www.cyclingforums.com

Jim Edgar
July 17th 03, 05:25 PM
Bikezelbub Smith at wrote on 7/16/03 9:37 PM:
> I watched the accident on OLN tonight and it appeared to me as
> Beloki's rear wheel sliding to the left was caused by braking on the
> slick tar, and then he attempted to correct himself by grabbing the
> front brake while trying to straighten himself out. This caused his
> rear wheel to become airborne, floating rather than sliding back to
> the right. The impact of the rear wheel hitting the ground caused both
> the tire to roll, and Beloki to be thrown over the bike to the ground.
>

Recheck the video - the tire rolled off when the rear tire was to his left,
which seems to be what chucked him back to the right. When the airborne rim
hit the ground, he pitched over high-side. His front wheel was remarkably
straight throughout the fishtail.

DiabloScott
July 17th 03, 06:17 PM
G.Daniels wrote:
> MAY I ASK?? I'm media deprived. was armstrong catching beloki, over how
> long a time span-track distance-was armstrong closing faster as he
> closed on beloki? and how fast were the two going when beloki crashed??
> does beloki wear a radio back to the team manager?



Wow G - I think this is the first post of yours that I've ever
understood.

Armstrong and Beloki were working together to chase down Vinokourov who
was about 30 seconds ahead and in the lead. The Hamilton group that
Lance later hooked up with was about 10 seconds behind. It was a pretty
steep decent so they may have been hitting 50mph in some sections,
probably closer to 35 at the time of the crash because they were coming
in to a very sharp hairpin turn. Lance was following Joseba at about
the minimum safe distance for the terrain and speed, he wasn't right on
his wheel. Lance did say that he and Joseba were "bombing the decent"
and implied that Joseba may have been pushing the envelope just a
little bit too far.



--
Check out my bike blog!

http://diabloscott.blogspot.com

>--------------------------<
Posted via cyclingforums.com
http://www.cyclingforums.com

Raptor
July 17th 03, 08:58 PM
g.daniels wrote:
> MAY I ASK?? I'm media deprived. was armstrong catching beloki, over
> how long a time span-track distance-was armstrong closing faster as he
> closed on beloki? and how fast were the two going when beloki
> crashed?? does beloki wear a radio back to the team manager?

There's video out there, try the usual cycling web sites.

LANCE was about 10 meters behind and preparing a better line through the
corner, decelerating gradually. When Beloki hammered his brakes (and
slowed quickly due to crashing) LANCE closed of course. This happened
over the space of about two seconds, so the separation and relative
speed isn't all that meaningful. Speed was in the 35-40 mph range. Of
course Beloki carries a radio (I assume).

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect
our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security."
--Microsoft VP in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

Raptor
July 17th 03, 09:02 PM
DiabloScott wrote:
> Armstrong and Beloki were working together to chase down Vinokourov who
> was about 30 seconds ahead and in the lead.

13-15 seconds.

One remarkable aspect is that Phil Liggett said, as the camera chased
Vino through a turn, "That was a rather dodgy corner," immediately
before Beloki and LANCE went through the same corner. Well, *started*
through the corner - neither actually went through it. You can get the
exact time split by counting between Liggett's commentary and the crash.

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect
our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security."
--Microsoft VP in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

Suzy Jackson
July 17th 03, 11:01 PM
"Raptor" > wrote in message ...

> One remarkable aspect is that Phil Liggett said, as the camera chased
> Vino through a turn, "That was a rather dodgy corner," immediately
> before Beloki and LANCE went through the same corner. Well, *started*
> through the corner - neither actually went through it. You can get the
> exact time split by counting between Liggett's commentary and the crash.

Except that the corner that Liggett made the comment on was a left hander,
while that where Beloki came to grief was a right hander. From the relative
timing, I think the dodgy corner may have been the one that Armstrong cut,
which was immedialy after the one where Beloki crashed.

Regards,

Suzy

David L. Johnson
July 17th 03, 11:41 PM
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 15:50:01 +0000, Tim McNamara wrote:

> Carbon fiber isn't much of a conductor of heat, so the glue shouldn't have
> gotten warm enough to allow the tire to roll off. But tape simply doesn't
> hold as well, especially if Beloki ground through the tread and casing
> while skidding- allowing the tire to pop with a bang.

Why would any sensible wrench use tape, especially on a stage with serious
downhills? Since we agree that tape does not hold well, it has no place
in such an event.

The picture sure looked like a Velox rim tape. People say those wheels
don't come in a clincher version, but teams on the Tour get all sorts of
unavailable equipment.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Accept risk. Accept responsibility. Put a lawyer out of
_`\(,_ | business.
(_)/ (_) |

Raptor
July 18th 03, 07:17 AM
Suzy Jackson wrote:
> "Raptor" > wrote in message ...
>
>
>>One remarkable aspect is that Phil Liggett said, as the camera chased
>>Vino through a turn, "That was a rather dodgy corner," immediately
>>before Beloki and LANCE went through the same corner. Well, *started*
>>through the corner - neither actually went through it. You can get the
>>exact time split by counting between Liggett's commentary and the crash.
>
>
> Except that the corner that Liggett made the comment on was a left hander,
> while that where Beloki came to grief was a right hander. From the relative
> timing, I think the dodgy corner may have been the one that Armstrong cut,
> which was immedialy after the one where Beloki crashed.
>
> Regards,
>
> Suzy

They were two corners, a gentle(r) right-hander into a left-hand
hairpin. Phil said "That was..." between the two IIRC, and I assumed he
was talking about the right-hander. Vino had to decelerate pretty
sharply before the combination, and picked his way through the
right-hander. IMO.

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect
our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security."
--Microsoft VP in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

Qui si parla Campagnolo
July 18th 03, 02:00 PM
Todd-<< However, Beloki and the
rest of the ONCE boys ride Hyperons, the wheels in the
accident pics look just like Hyperons, and I'm not sure why
Beloki would switch to clinchers for the mountains. >><BR><BR>

Prototype all carbon Hyperon clinchers?? Supposed to be in the offering in
2004...from the mavic guy here locally.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Qui si parla Campagnolo
July 18th 03, 02:01 PM
diablo-<< So, yes it's a sew-up but what is that white stuff? Answer that
question
and you'll convince the non-believers. >><BR><BR>

If it is a tubie, I hope they aren't using sticky tape to glue them on......

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Mark Hickey
July 18th 03, 05:17 PM
Raptor > wrote:

>DiabloScott wrote:
>> Armstrong and Beloki were working together to chase down Vinokourov who
>> was about 30 seconds ahead and in the lead.
>
>13-15 seconds.

Yes - it may have been only 10 or 12 seconds (they were catching
Vinny) - and keep in mind that it appears that Armstrong (who is a
pretty fair descender) was braking harder sooner than Beloki. It will
be interesting to see how much Beloki remembers about the seconds
before his tour ended.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Jim Edgar
July 18th 03, 06:10 PM
Suzy Jackson at wrote on 7/17/03 3:01 PM:

> "Raptor" > wrote in message ...
>
>> One remarkable aspect is that Phil Liggett said, as the camera chased
>> Vino through a turn, "That was a rather dodgy corner," immediately
>> before Beloki and LANCE went through the same corner. Well, *started*
>> through the corner - neither actually went through it. You can get the
>> exact time split by counting between Liggett's commentary and the crash.
>
> Except that the corner that Liggett made the comment on was a left hander,
> while that where Beloki came to grief was a right hander. From the relative
> timing, I think the dodgy corner may have been the one that Armstrong cut,
> which was immedialy after the one where Beloki crashed.
>

It's a bit misleading because the cameras are following Vinokourov while the
footage of the crash was from the helicopter.

The turn sequence was:

90 degree left toward the double horshoe

180 degree right (first horseshoe where Beloki crashed)

180 degree left (second horseshoe where Armstrong cyclocross dis/remounts)

Phil was commenting on the difficulty throughout the sequence, and made the
"dodgy" comment as Vino was through the final left horseshoe.

Tim McNamara
July 18th 03, 08:50 PM
In article >,
"David L. Johnson" > wrote:

> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 15:50:01 +0000, Tim McNamara wrote:
>
> > Carbon fiber isn't much of a conductor of heat, so the glue
> > shouldn't have gotten warm enough to allow the tire to roll off.
> > But tape simply doesn't hold as well, especially if Beloki ground
> > through the tread and casing while skidding- allowing the tire to
> > pop with a bang.
>
> Why would any sensible wrench use tape, especially on a stage with
> serious downhills? Since we agree that tape does not hold well, it
> has no place in such an event.

From various things I've read over the years, from people observing
pro wrenches in action, I'm not sure that "sensible" is necessarily an
apt descriptor.

> The picture sure looked like a Velox rim tape. People say those
> wheels don't come in a clincher version, but teams on the Tour get
> all sorts of unavailable equipment.

There is that. But would a carbon clincher rim be feasible?

Mark Janeba
July 18th 03, 09:37 PM
Jim Edgar wrote:
> Bikezelbub Smith at wrote on 7/16/03 9:37 PM:
>
>>I watched the accident on OLN tonight and it appeared to me as
>>Beloki's rear wheel sliding to the left was caused by braking on the
>>slick tar, and then he attempted to correct himself by grabbing the
>>front brake while trying to straighten himself out. This caused his
>>rear wheel to become airborne, floating rather than sliding back to
>>the right. The impact of the rear wheel hitting the ground caused both
>>the tire to roll, and Beloki to be thrown over the bike to the ground.
>>
>
>
> Recheck the video - the tire rolled off when the rear tire was to his left,

Yes, that's the way I saw the video (repeatedly).

> which seems to be what chucked him back to the right. When the airborne rim
> hit the ground, he pitched over high-side. His front wheel was remarkably
> straight throughout the fishtail.

Mark Janeba

Joe Riel
July 19th 03, 03:24 PM
Jim Edgar > writes:

> > Do you really believe that Phil Liggett's commentary on the highlights
> > show is done in real time? I have always assumed that he puts his
> > script together after the event, matching the footage, which he has
> > already seen. This isn't the first time I've seen a bit of
> > foreshadowing in his copy. He's good at his job, so he knows how to
> > sound surprised nonetheless.
> >
>
> Yeah, I actually do. [snipped]

Watching the time trial last night I noticed at one point
Phil appeared to be talking continuously as two riders
came in, separated by about 10 seconds [tv time], and with
the same elapsed time. Because they started at two minute
intervals, this seems to indicate that the voice was
added later.

Joe

James Thomson
July 21st 03, 11:07 AM
"Mark Hickey" > wrote:

> If the rear wheel lift was caused by too much front brake,
> the rear wheel would not have "changed directions", but
> the initial slide would have continued (and the rear wheel
> would have gone past poor ol' Beloki on the left).

Not so. As the rear wheel slides left, Beloki is steering hard left to keep
the bike under control. At the moment the rear tyre meets the dark tar
patch and regains traction, he's effectively in a tight left turn. When the
tyre bites, he grabs the front brake hard, lifting the rear wheel.

> The fact the tire (tubie or clincher) was ripped off the rim by the
> "liftoff" indicates that it wasn't due to front braking.

I don't see how a tyre could be unseated by a lift-off, or how the
unseating of a rear tyre could cause a lift-off. The tyre rolled as it
regained sideways traction after the slide.

James Thomson

Mark Hickey
July 21st 03, 04:59 PM
"James Thomson" > wrote:

>"Mark Hickey" > wrote:
>
>> If the rear wheel lift was caused by too much front brake,
>> the rear wheel would not have "changed directions", but
>> the initial slide would have continued (and the rear wheel
>> would have gone past poor ol' Beloki on the left).
>
>Not so. As the rear wheel slides left, Beloki is steering hard left to keep
>the bike under control. At the moment the rear tyre meets the dark tar
>patch and regains traction, he's effectively in a tight left turn. When the
>tyre bites, he grabs the front brake hard, lifting the rear wheel.

I don't quite see how that could happen - if you're braking hard and
lifting the back wheel, it's not going to move from the left to the
right - it's going to move to whichever side of the pivot point (the
headset) the center of gravity is on (in this case, the left).

>> The fact the tire (tubie or clincher) was ripped off the rim by the
>> "liftoff" indicates that it wasn't due to front braking.
>
>I don't see how a tyre could be unseated by a lift-off, or how the
>unseating of a rear tyre could cause a lift-off. The tyre rolled as it
>regained sideways traction after the slide.

It's clear from the video that the tire was ripped off BEFORE the back
end came around to the right. That alone pretty much proves the point
- there's certainly no reason for it to simply fall off "mid-flight".

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

James Thomson
July 22nd 03, 12:45 AM
"Mark Hickey" > wrote:

> if you're braking hard and lifting the back wheel, it's not
> going to move from the left to the right - it's going to move
> to whichever side of the pivot point (the headset) the
> center of gravity is on (in this case, the left).

That would be true if the front wheel were fixed. At the moment the rear
lifts off, the bike is steeply banked over to the right, and the front
wheel is pointing leftward. The effective pivot point is not the headset,
but the contact patch of the front wheel. The corner falls away to the
right.

> >I don't see how a tyre could be unseated by a lift-off, or how the
> >unseating of a rear tyre could cause a lift-off. The tyre rolled as it
> >regained sideways traction after the slide.
>
> It's clear from the video that the tire was ripped off
> BEFORE the back end came around to the right.

Right.

> That alone pretty much proves the point - there's certainly
> no reason for it to simply fall off "mid-flight".

How did you get there from what I wrote ("The tyre rolled as it regained
sideways traction after the slide")? The tyre obviously rolled when the
side loads on it were greatest - at the moment when it regained traction
following the initial slide.

You haven't yet explained how a rolled tyre causes the rear wheel to leave
the ground and change direction (or how the fact of the tyre leaving the
ground caused it to leave the rim - I'm not sure which of these you're
claiming).

Incidentally, the French TV show 'Velo Club' confirmed that he was riding
tubs.

James Thomson

Mark Hickey
July 22nd 03, 02:11 AM
"James Thomson" > wrote:

>"Mark Hickey" > wrote:
>
>> >I don't see how a tyre could be unseated by a lift-off, or how the
>> >unseating of a rear tyre could cause a lift-off. The tyre rolled as it
>> >regained sideways traction after the slide.
>>
>> It's clear from the video that the tire was ripped off
>> BEFORE the back end came around to the right.
>
>Right.
>
>> That alone pretty much proves the point - there's certainly
>> no reason for it to simply fall off "mid-flight".
>
>How did you get there from what I wrote ("The tyre rolled as it regained
>sideways traction after the slide")? The tyre obviously rolled when the
>side loads on it were greatest - at the moment when it regained traction
>following the initial slide.
>
>You haven't yet explained how a rolled tyre causes the rear wheel to leave
>the ground and change direction (or how the fact of the tyre leaving the
>ground caused it to leave the rim - I'm not sure which of these you're
>claiming).

There are only two things that could have caused the "liftoff and
reversal" of the rear wheel.

One - overbraking with the front. However, if Beloki was using so
much front brake as to totally unload the rear tire it's hard to
imagine enough lateral force to rip the tire off the rim...

Two - abrupt and catastropic application of traction to the sliding
tire/rim. This would explain how the tire was ripped off the rim,
though it's not clear whether the now bare rim "digging into" the soft
tar was part of the event.

You obviously have never high-sided a motorcycle (consider yourself
lucky - I have...). The back end comes around, and around, until
finally the tire bites and BLAM - you're in orbit. In my case not
only did the rear end reverse directions, but the bike did several end
over end flips, a couple rolls and a lot of sliding. Ouch.

The action of the tire "digging in" produces the same effect as if the
rear wheel actually hit something solid (in which case it's easy to
see how it would lift and change directions).

>Incidentally, the French TV show 'Velo Club' confirmed that he was riding
>tubs.

That's good to know (if only to put that question to bed).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Lindsay Rowlands
July 22nd 03, 03:35 AM
It seems from many of the contributions to this thread that a lot of people
would be happy if they could prove categorically that Beloki crashed because
he used tubulars. It's as if psyches would be eased if the crash could be
blamed on the equipment. It's quite clear that Beloki was in crash mode but
may have been able to save the show if he had not hit the patch of road
repair. He was high sided. The tyre coming off the rim was a result of the
crash, not the cause or the mediator. These previous knee-jerk reactions
remind me of the Chicken Little story.

Cheerz,
Lynzz

James Thomson
July 22nd 03, 10:24 AM
"Mark Hickey" > wrote:

> There are only two things that could have caused the "liftoff and
> reversal" of the rear wheel.

> One - overbraking with the front. However, if Beloki was using so
> much front brake as to totally unload the rear tire it's hard to
> imagine enough lateral force to rip the tire off the rim...

Not if he only hit the front brake - as I suggested - after the tyre had
rolled.

In fact the reversal of the rear wheel is easy to accept. Recovering from a
fish-tail always involves reversing the direction of slide, but doesn't
normally involve lifting the rear wheel.

> Two - abrupt and catastropic application of traction to the sliding
> tire/rim. This would explain how the tire was ripped off the rim,
> though it's not clear whether the now bare rim "digging into" the soft
> tar was part of the event.

> You obviously have never high-sided a motorcycle

I've never crashed a motorcycle (my elder brother was always the family's
primary transfusion recipient :-/ ) - and I've never rolled a tub.

> The back end comes around, and around, until
> finally the tire bites and BLAM - you're in orbit.

Right, which is the effect you're seeing when Beloki's rear wheel comes
back to earth. The difference is that the motorcycle's rear wheel is
earthbound until the centre of gravity passes over the plane of the wheels,
and the barrel roll begins. The centre of gravity of a motorcycle/rider is
obviously far lower than that of a bicycle/rider, and I'm not sure how
relevant the motorcycle situation is to understanding what happened to
Beloki.

> The action of the tire "digging in" produces the same effect as
> if the rear wheel actually hit something solid (in which case it's
> easy to see how it would lift and change directions).

Yes and no. A solid object (a curb, or a rock) can impart an upward impulse
on the wheel. The road can only exert a frictional force against the
direction of motion. For all the failings of the road surface, I didn't see

any rocks.

James Thomson

James Thomson
July 22nd 03, 10:27 AM
"Lindsay Rowlands" > wrote:

> :> It seems from many of the contributions to this thread
> :> that a lot of people would be happy if they could prove
> :> categorically that Beloki crashed because he used tubulars.
> :> It's as if psyches would be eased if the crash could be
> :> blamed on the equipment.

That's certainly not my intention. I still have one set of tubs, though I
don't race on them.

> What's to understand? At 100kph in on a twisty mountain
> road, losing traction for whatever reason narrows down the
> possibilities of keeping the bike/rider system in some kind
> of stasis. Just as it was very arsey that LA survived the
> cyclocross event, Beloki would have needed a generous
> amount of luck to have saved his slide, correction and
> counterslide, regardless of the road repair. If my memory
> serves me, he was heading for the outside of the corner
> in a state of control loss anyway.

I doubt he was doing anything like 100kph at the moment of the slide, but I
agree that having begun to slide, he would probably have crashed no matter
what the road surface or type of tyre. But he would probably have crashed
differently.

> While it may an engaging opportunity for speculation, the
> dynamics of the crash can never be understood in a complete
> way. I just wonder what the point is.

The point? Speaking for myself, I've got a work deadline approaching, and
this is easy procrastination.

> It would be much more heartening - restore faith in humanity
> - if we could have a discussion about what a **** of thing it
> was to have happen to an elite sportsperson, the implications
> for their future and what can we as the public do as support
> for them.

This is rec.bicycles.tech. If I were interested in that touchy-feely
empathetic ****, I'd probably go post on uk.rec.cycling ...

James Thomson

Andrew Bradley
July 22nd 03, 11:48 AM
Lindsay Rowlands > wrote in message >...
> It seems from many of the contributions to this thread that a lot of people
> would be happy if they could prove categorically that Beloki crashed because
> he used tubulars. It's as if psyches would be eased if the crash could be
> blamed on the equipment. It's quite clear that Beloki was in crash mode but
> may have been able to save the show if he had not hit the patch of road
> repair. He was high sided. The tyre coming off the rim was a result of the
> crash, not the cause or the mediator. These previous knee-jerk reactions
> remind me of the Chicken Little story.

Let's wish Beloki well. His was needless but instructive though. It
showed that in hot weather on a mountain descent (the worst case
scenario for the tub) it takes quite a lot of force to rip a tub off a
carbon rim.

We can also learn not to race near the limit down hill unless
absolutely necessary. A top climber trying to snatch a few seconds
back (for second place ten days away) on a descent. What's that all
about? I just hope it wasn't a voice in his ear that sparked his
panick.


Andrew Bradley

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