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Qui si parla Campagnolo
July 15th 03, 02:20 PM
ajames-<< Ten years ago it was possible by buying small lots of naked
frames for a larger sized retail store to get OEM pricing from
Shimano (and others). There did not really seem to be any firm
check that the number of component groups matched the number of
frames. Some component makers (Pulstar and Rock-Shox spring to
mind) made slightly inferior versions of their retail product for
the OEM stream.


How have things changed in the last few years? Has it become
harder to get OEM pricing? I see far fewer obviously OEM
components for sale lately..
...just wondering >><BR><BR>

Recently shimano has publically stated that it will try to control OEM resale
to MO, because in their words, smaller bike shops have reduced their support of
shimano products. One way they are attempting to do this is to have shimano
stuff be resold only in their boxes, whereas OEM receives stuff not in boxes so
if a MO place has a bunch of shimano in plastic bags, it is resold OEM...BUT I
find it unlikely that shimano will go to TREK, for instance, and spank their
hand for selling 1500 ultegra groups to MO outlets. I just don't see any teeth
in this shimano policy. A DA rear der still sells in MO for about $65-$69 and
it still cost me about $55. MO sells using the same or similar margin as
me...They just pay less.

You can still as a frame maker get a OEM 'deal' from shimano...VERY attractive,
one wonders if they are selling close to or below their cost, just to get
shimano onto bikes...

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

ajames54
July 15th 03, 02:48 PM
On 15 Jul 2003 13:20:13 GMT, (Qui si parla
Campagnolo) wrote:

>..just wondering >><BR><BR>
>
>Recently shimano has publically stated that it will try to control OEM resale
>to MO, because in their words, smaller bike shops have reduced their support of
>shimano products. One way they are attempting to do this is to have shimano
>stuff be resold only in their boxes, whereas OEM receives stuff not in boxes so
>if a MO place has a bunch of shimano in plastic bags, it is resold OEM...BUT I
>find it unlikely that shimano will go to TREK, for instance, and spank their
>hand for selling 1500 ultegra groups to MO outlets. I just don't see any teeth
>in this shimano policy. A DA rear der still sells in MO for about $65-$69 and
>it still cost me about $55. MO sells using the same or similar margin as
>me...They just pay less.
>
>You can still as a frame maker get a OEM 'deal' from shimano...VERY attractive,
>one wonders if they are selling close to or below their cost, just to get
>shimano onto bikes...
>
Thanks...
FWIW when I had my shop the OEM deal (for MTB components) was
rumored to be around 60% off the regular whole-sale price ..

Precious Pup
July 17th 03, 01:05 AM
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
>

> I just don't see any teeth
> in this shimano policy.

Then that ought to tell you just how much they really value the small shop supply chain: they don't. If you
can't get the "policy" in writing (so you can have *some* chance of successfully suing them), then it and 50
cents will get you a cup of coffee.


> You can still as a frame maker get a OEM 'deal' from shimano...VERY attractive,

Then *do it*, or buy from the same "OEM resale" as the MO outfits buy from.


> one wonders if they are selling close to or below their cost, just to get
> shimano onto bikes...

Every corp would like to dominate markets if they could, but they can't "dump" forever, because they'll go
broke if they do -- since dumping by definition is selling at a loss to obtain *some* market share, or even
dominate if possible. There is no question Shimano is making an overall profit since they would otherwise
have been selling at a loss for what... around 15 years or more?

And why would you care if they were selling at "near cost?" This is pretty funny: most folks complain because
corps try to profit too much (the dreaded "corporate greed"); you complain that Shimano is trying to profit
too little. Sounds like a good deal to me (for me).

So just to get it straight: you complain because Shimano is using their marketplace dominance to sell stuff at
low profit margins. What a horrible world we live in, hah hah. In that case, I wish every large corp was as
evil as Shimano.

Funny stuff Peter, funny funny stuff.

Qui si parla Campagnolo
July 17th 03, 02:31 PM
barking-<< Then that ought to tell you just how much they really value the
small shop supply chain: they don't. If you
can't get the "policy" in writing (so you can have *some* chance of
successfully suing them), then it and 50
cents will get you a cup of coffee.
>><BR><BR>

It has been published in writing and I have a copy..

<< You can still as a frame maker get a OEM 'deal' from shimano...VERY
attractive,

Then *do it*, or buy from the same "OEM resale" as the MO outfits buy from.
>><BR><BR>

I don't manufacture framesets and I don't have the assets to buy 2500 ultegra
groups...They just hanfg up when I say I want 3 groups...

<< Every corp would like to dominate markets if they could, but they can't
"dump" forever, because they'll go
broke if they do -- since dumping by definition is selling at a loss to obtain
*some* market share, or even
dominate if possible. >><BR><BR>

Most of the money shimano makes is on the very low end, Pacific type bikes.
Road in general and DA/ultefgra specifically is a tiny sliver of their sales.

<< you complain that Shimano is trying to profit
too little. Sounds like a good deal to me (for me). >><BR><BR>

No doubt(for me)-

<< So just to get it straight: you complain because Shimano is using their
marketplace dominance to sell stuff at
low profit margins. What a horrible world we live in, hah hah. In that case,
I wish every large corp was as
evil as Shimano. >><BR><BR>

You have gotten very little straight at all...You take small parts of this
conversation, add some little 'witty' things and stand back and say things
like-<< Funny stuff Peter, funny funny stuff. >><BR><BR>

Start a small retail business...any one you care to try, try it for say 12-18
months, get back to me...


Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Gary Young
July 17th 03, 07:31 PM
(Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote:

<snip>
> Recently shimano has publically stated that it will try to control OEM resale
> to MO, because in their words, smaller bike shops have reduced their support of
> shimano products. One way they are attempting to do this is to have shimano
> stuff be resold only in their boxes, whereas OEM receives stuff not in boxes so
> if a MO place has a bunch of shimano in plastic bags, it is resold OEM...BUT I
> find it unlikely that shimano will go to TREK, for instance, and spank their
> hand for selling 1500 ultegra groups to MO outlets. I just don't see any teeth
> in this shimano policy.

Isn't the fact that Shimano has designated only six official online
dealers a sign that they're serious about this? See
<www.branfordbike.com/shimano/shimano.html> If anyone sells Shimano
stuff online and isn't one of those six, then Shimano will know it's
greymarket and can take action. I'm not saying they will....

Is this new policy going to prevent Sheldon from selling Shimano stuff
over the Harris website? It would be a shame if they hurt one of their
biggest boosters.

Chalo
July 18th 03, 01:30 AM
(Gary Young) wrote:

> Isn't the fact that Shimano has designated only six official online
> dealers a sign that they're serious about this? See
> <www.branfordbike.com/shimano/shimano.html> If anyone sells Shimano
> stuff online and isn't one of those six, then Shimano will know it's
> greymarket and can take action. I'm not saying they will....
>
> Is this new policy going to prevent Sheldon from selling Shimano stuff
> over the Harris website? It would be a shame if they hurt one of their
> biggest boosters.

You don't think they give a s**t about Sheldon any more than they do
about the rest of us, do you? He doesn't order thousands of gruppos
either.

It's easy to build a bike without a speck of their junk on it; I've
been doing so for years. I had made an exception of late for their
11-34 7-speed freewheel, but now I have yet another reason to
reconsider that exception.

Just say no to Shimano's aftermarket parts. Let them make low-margin
components for OEM bikes-- those parts are apt to be junk in any case.
Any enthusiast with enough wits about him to spec his own machine can
and should avoid Shimano.

Chalo Colina

Qui si parla Campagnolo
July 18th 03, 01:43 PM
gary-<< Isn't the fact that Shimano has designated only six official online
dealers a sign that they're serious about this? >><BR><BR>

There is no doubt that shimano is serious about it but time will tell..and
prices at mailorder...

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Mike Iglesias
July 18th 03, 07:29 PM
In article >,
Gary Young > wrote:
>Isn't the fact that Shimano has designated only six official online
>dealers a sign that they're serious about this? See
><www.branfordbike.com/shimano/shimano.html> If anyone sells Shimano
>stuff online and isn't one of those six, then Shimano will know it's
>greymarket and can take action. I'm not saying they will....

Anyone know who the "six" are?


--
Mike Iglesias Email:
University of California, Irvine phone: 949-824-6926
Network & Academic Computing Services FAX: 949-824-2069

DiabloScott
July 18th 03, 09:40 PM
Mike Iglesias wrote:
> In article >, Gary Young
> > wrote:
> >Isn't the fact that Shimano has designated only six official online
> >dealers a sign that they're serious about this? See
> ><www.branfordbike.com/shimano/shimano.html> If anyone sells Shimano
> >stuff online and isn't one of those six, then Shimano will know it's
> >greymarket and can take action. I'm not saying they will....
> Anyone know who the "six" are?
> --
> Mike Iglesias Email: University of
> California, Irvine phone: 949-824-6926 Network & Academic Computing
> Services FAX: 949-824-2069



Unofficially: Performance Nashbar Supergo Colorado Cyclist Excel Sports
Boulder REI

(Note that Performance owns Nashbar and Supergo - could be some serious
market manipulation there).



--
Check out my bike blog!

http://diabloscott.blogspot.com

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Chalo
July 18th 03, 10:16 PM
Werehatrack > wrote:

> On 17 Jul 2003 17:30:03 -0700, (Chalo) may
> have said:
>
> > Any enthusiast with enough wits about him to spec his own machine can
> >and should avoid Shimano.
>
> Unless that's all that fits in the budget. Not everyone can even
> afford new, let alone really good new.

A fair point. Actually I find that it's a bit easier to build a
quality non-Shimano bike out of pre-8-speed parts than out of new
parts, because of Shimano's growing domination of the market.

I suppose that the strength and virtue of Shimano parts from a
consumer standpoint is that they may be the cheapest means for a rider
of average needs to build a reliable, functional daily use bike. If
budget is the decisive factor, a less-fashionable grade of Shimano
drivetrain may be the best route. (If Sunrace decide to pay more
attention to the retail aftermarket, that could could change in a
jiffy.)

I don't usually see folks building up their own bikes when cost
effectiveness is paramount, though. More often there is a confluence
of experimentation, self-expression, and bike lust that serves as the
motivating force. All those elements are best fulfilled by working
around, rather than with, Shimano parts.

Chalo Colina

Chalo
July 19th 03, 09:45 PM
Precious Pup > wrote:

> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > Any enthusiast with enough wits about him to spec his own machine can
> > and should avoid Shimano.
>
> Who gives a **** about avoiding or favoring? I care about what is in my interests, not the LBS, KMART, Ace
> Hardware, Shimano, Campy, SunRace, or whomever else.
>
> I could not care less if my components say "campy, shimano, SunRace, falcon,..... or whatever" as long as they
> work and fit within my budget.
....
> Screw any bizarre sense of loyalty.

If you buy from a manufacturer whose trade practices eradicate variety
in the market, you act to reduce your own range of choices. Buying
Shimano works for you if you only ever want Shimano parts. But if
you like having other options to choose from, buying Shimano works
against the existence of those options, by means known to encompass
both "fair" and "unfair" trade practices.

The ability to spec one's own bike, rather than simply having Shimano
Inc. decide what parts you want and in what combinations, depends on
maintaining some other options. The choices available have
deteriorated enough lately that it's irresponsible to give Shimano any
money if you value having other products to choose from.

To adopt a wider focus:

Pup, you have too much faith in the capitalist so-called "free
market". It is good at some things, like maximizing consumption, but
not so good at others, like conserving finite resources. It rewards
skills combined with greed, but it punishes those who are not greedy,
no matter how virtuous they may be. It's terrific at pandering to the
lowest common denominator, but it sucks at serving uncommon needs.

You, Pup, may not care whether there is variety in the marketplace,
clean water in the river, and room for folks without ambitions to have
a comfortable living. But many people do. And unbridled capitalist
practice acts to eradicate all these things.

Chalo Colina

Precious Pup
July 21st 03, 06:01 PM
DiabloScott wrote:
>

> (Note that Performance owns Nashbar and Supergo - could be some serious
> market manipulation there).

Their prices are distinctly lower than LBSs. So I can take that sort of "manipulation" easily.

If the practices are clearly anti-competetive, then competiting retail outlets should be able to file a class
action suit. I wonder why they haven't, but I hope they do if the complaint is true. After all, I like more
competition because it tends to push the price down, other things equal.

Chalo
July 23rd 03, 01:29 AM
Precious Pup > wrote:

> I don't delude myself into thinking my choices will be noticable to
> companies selling huge quantities.

And the watershed won't really be harmed if you dump just your own
used motor oil, right?

Collective trends are made one individual at a time. Where you spend
your dollars is more influential than where you spend your vote.

Chalo Colina

Chalo
July 23rd 03, 01:30 AM
Precious Pup > wrote:

> I don't delude myself into thinking my choices will be noticable to
> companies selling huge quantities.

And the watershed won't really be harmed if you dump just your own
used motor oil, right?

Collective trends are made one individual at a time. Where you spend
your dollars is more influential than where you spend your vote.

Chalo Colina

Precious Pup
July 24th 03, 01:43 AM
Chalo wrote:
>
> Precious Pup > wrote:
>
> > I don't delude myself into thinking my choices will be noticable to
> > companies selling huge quantities.
>
> And the watershed won't really be harmed if you dump just your own
> used motor oil, right?

Please give me a break.

> Collective trends are made one individual at a time. Where you spend
> your dollars is more influential than where you spend your vote.

Okay. I spend on me and I vote for me; it is the only ethical and sensible thing to do. If the purchase
happens to be Shimano, then so be it. I won't shed one tear.

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