Two cyclists attacked and beaten in Portland

[Gooserider]

Wow. And that's a bike friendly city. I hope the assailants are caught and
sent to prison.

http://www.katu.com/news/5184291.html

PORTLAND, Ore. - Two cyclists said they were attacked by three teenagers
near a north Portland bus stop on Wednesday.

The women, Ashley Gorman and her co-worker Heather Moles, were riding their
bikes home from work when the attack occurred near Legacy Emanuel Hospital.

The cyclists said the teen girls were standing in the bike lane waiting for
the bus and they had to steer their bikes around the group. The teens may
have thought the cyclists rode too closely.

The next thing she knew, one of the teens kicked out Moles' tire, causing
her to fall.

"I felt the thud, and then the tire went, and I went skidding into the
road," Moles said.

That's when the beating began. Three teens punched both cyclists in the head
and dislocated Moles' shoulder.

Jonathan Corey was passing by and helped break up the fight, pulling the
teens off the cyclists.

"It became obvious who was the aggressor in the whole equation," he said.

Corey added that the assailants were ruthless.

"I felt like I almost didn't use enough force in retrospect as I might have
wanted to to make the thing stop," he said.

One witness heard a racial slur aimed at the cyclists, who said they didn't
hear it. The teens were black while the cyclists were white.

The cyclists wonder whether race had anything to do with the attack. They
can't understand what caused it.

"I could imagine if we had said something but nothing was said," Gorman
said.

Gorman suffered the worst beating. She went to the emergency room but has no
insurance to pay for it.

"I got bruised up pretty good," Gorman said. "I got my behind handed to me."

A fourth teenager with the group apparently stood by during the attack but
then apologized afterward just before everybody scattered and police
arrived.

[DougC]

Gooserider wrote:
> Wow. And that's a bike friendly city. I hope the assailants are caught and
> sent to prison.
>
>
>

OMG!! That's amazing. They should also convict them for "violating civil
rights" and "hate crimes".
.....oh, wait....
-the victims were /white/.
Well that don't count then. Nevermind.

Move along, nothing to see here.
~~~~~~

[Werehatrack]

On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 17:44:49 -0600, DougC > may
have said:

>Gooserider wrote:
>> Wow. And that's a bike friendly city. I hope the assailants are caught and
>> sent to prison.
>>
>>
>>
>
>OMG!! That's amazing. They should also convict them for "violating civil
>rights" and "hate crimes".
>....oh, wait....
>-the victims were /white/.
>Well that don't count then. Nevermind.
>
>Move along, nothing to see here.

IMO, all of the "hate crime" statutes should be replaced by an add-on
offense of "publicly and persistently being an asshole" that can be
piggybacked onto just about anything involving actual injury or
damage, right down to littering. I can deal with people who are
assholes but who otherwise don't cause any actual problems. What bugs
me are the ones who bust things up and then stand there and
belligerently dare the world to do anything about it.

Sentencing would have to be awfully creative, though.




--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

[Random Waftings Of Bunker Blasts]

I wonder what the assailants' Free Republic handles were.

--

Buy my book about school bullying here:

http://www.lulu.com/content/112781 (recommended)
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=1411626559
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1411626559

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
(Random Waftings Of Bunker Blasts) writes:

> I wonder what the assailants' Free Republic handles were.

Sounds to me like a case of punk-ettes looking for
peurile, bullying kicks, beligerently blocking a bike
lane, and waiting for the next victimizable cyclist(s)
to come along, to pick-on.

It's old hat stuff. Except cases of inter-female
bullying are now being more publicized.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[GaryG]

"Gooserider" > wrote in message
...
> Wow. And that's a bike friendly city. I hope the assailants are caught and
> sent to prison.
>
> http://www.katu.com/news/5184291.html
>
> PORTLAND, Ore. - Two cyclists said they were attacked by three teenagers
> near a north Portland bus stop on Wednesday.
>
> The women, Ashley Gorman and her co-worker Heather Moles, were riding
their
> bikes home from work when the attack occurred near Legacy Emanuel
Hospital.
>
> The cyclists said the teen girls were standing in the bike lane waiting
for
> the bus and they had to steer their bikes around the group. The teens may
> have thought the cyclists rode too closely.
>
> The next thing she knew, one of the teens kicked out Moles' tire, causing
> her to fall.
>
> "I felt the thud, and then the tire went, and I went skidding into the
> road," Moles said.

And that's why I carry a canister of pepper spray in my jersey pocket.
Works great on dogs, and would probably have put the hurt on those two
little b*tches too.

GG

>
> That's when the beating began. Three teens punched both cyclists in the
head
> and dislocated Moles' shoulder.
>
> Jonathan Corey was passing by and helped break up the fight, pulling the
> teens off the cyclists.
>
> "It became obvious who was the aggressor in the whole equation," he said.
>
> Corey added that the assailants were ruthless.
>
> "I felt like I almost didn't use enough force in retrospect as I might
have
> wanted to to make the thing stop," he said.
>
> One witness heard a racial slur aimed at the cyclists, who said they
didn't
> hear it. The teens were black while the cyclists were white.
>
> The cyclists wonder whether race had anything to do with the attack. They
> can't understand what caused it.
>
> "I could imagine if we had said something but nothing was said," Gorman
> said.
>
> Gorman suffered the worst beating. She went to the emergency room but has
no
> insurance to pay for it.
>
> "I got bruised up pretty good," Gorman said. "I got my behind handed to
me."
>
> A fourth teenager with the group apparently stood by during the attack but
> then apologized afterward just before everybody scattered and police
> arrived.
>
>

[Gooserider]

"Random Waftings Of Bunker Blasts" > wrote in
message ...
>I wonder what the assailants' Free Republic handles were.
>

Nice. You read a story about two white women being beaten up by four black
teenagers---and your first instinct is to blame it on Freepers? I really
don't think the Free Republic's readership is made up of teenaged black
girls. This was obviously a race-based attack, since racial slurs were used
during the attack.

[Gooserider]

"Tom Keats" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> (Random Waftings Of Bunker Blasts) writes:
>
>> I wonder what the assailants' Free Republic handles were.
>
> Sounds to me like a case of punk-ettes looking for
> peurile, bullying kicks, beligerently blocking a bike
> lane, and waiting for the next victimizable cyclist(s)
> to come along, to pick-on.
>
> It's old hat stuff. Except cases of inter-female
> bullying are now being more publicized.
>
>
> cheers,
> Tom
>

Well, except for the racial aspect. If three white teenagers beat two black
cyclists while spouting racial slurs, this would be the lead story on every
networks' newscast, and the assailants' photos would be splashed on every
newspaper and magazine in the country. But the victims were white so this
story will remain a local one, and a minor local one at that.

[Bill Baka]

Gooserider wrote:
> "Tom Keats" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In article >,
>> (Random Waftings Of Bunker Blasts) writes:
>>
>>> I wonder what the assailants' Free Republic handles were.
>> Sounds to me like a case of punk-ettes looking for
>> peurile, bullying kicks, beligerently blocking a bike
>> lane, and waiting for the next victimizable cyclist(s)
>> to come along, to pick-on.
>>
>> It's old hat stuff. Except cases of inter-female
>> bullying are now being more publicized.
>>
>>
>> cheers,
>> Tom
>>
>
> Well, except for the racial aspect. If three white teenagers beat two black
> cyclists while spouting racial slurs, this would be the lead story on every
> networks' newscast, and the assailants' photos would be splashed on every
> newspaper and magazine in the country. But the victims were white so this
> story will remain a local one, and a minor local one at that.
>
>
You've noticed that aspect? I am now a minority in California, being
white, yet discriminated against because of it. Affirmative action just
means that my job will be given to a less qualified person 'of some
color'. It has gotten out of hand.
Bill Baka

[R Brickston]

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 15:53:08 GMT, Bill Baka > wrote:

>Gooserider wrote:
>> "Tom Keats" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> In article >,
>>> (Random Waftings Of Bunker Blasts) writes:
>>>
>>>> I wonder what the assailants' Free Republic handles were.
>>> Sounds to me like a case of punk-ettes looking for
>>> peurile, bullying kicks, beligerently blocking a bike
>>> lane, and waiting for the next victimizable cyclist(s)
>>> to come along, to pick-on.
>>>
>>> It's old hat stuff. Except cases of inter-female
>>> bullying are now being more publicized.
>>>
>>>
>>> cheers,
>>> Tom
>>>
>>
>> Well, except for the racial aspect. If three white teenagers beat two black
>> cyclists while spouting racial slurs, this would be the lead story on every
>> networks' newscast, and the assailants' photos would be splashed on every
>> newspaper and magazine in the country. But the victims were white so this
>> story will remain a local one, and a minor local one at that.
>>
>>
>You've noticed that aspect? I am now a minority in California, being
>white, yet discriminated against because of it. Affirmative action just
>means that my job will be given to a less qualified person 'of some
>color'. It has gotten out of hand.
>Bill Baka

Billy, you're not discriminated against because of your skin color...
it's because you're a flaming big-mouthed idiot.

[Ken C. M.]

Gooserider wrote:
> Wow. And that's a bike friendly city. I hope the assailants are caught and
> sent to prison.
>
> http://www.katu.com/news/5184291.html
>
> PORTLAND, Ore. - Two cyclists said they were attacked by three teenagers
> near a north Portland bus stop on Wednesday.
>
> The women, Ashley Gorman and her co-worker Heather Moles, were riding their
> bikes home from work when the attack occurred near Legacy Emanuel Hospital.
>
> The cyclists said the teen girls were standing in the bike lane waiting for
> the bus and they had to steer their bikes around the group. The teens may
> have thought the cyclists rode too closely.
>
> The next thing she knew, one of the teens kicked out Moles' tire, causing
> her to fall.
>
> "I felt the thud, and then the tire went, and I went skidding into the
> road," Moles said.
>
> That's when the beating began. Three teens punched both cyclists in the head
> and dislocated Moles' shoulder.
>
> Jonathan Corey was passing by and helped break up the fight, pulling the
> teens off the cyclists.
>
> "It became obvious who was the aggressor in the whole equation," he said.
>
> Corey added that the assailants were ruthless.
>
> "I felt like I almost didn't use enough force in retrospect as I might have
> wanted to to make the thing stop," he said.
>
> One witness heard a racial slur aimed at the cyclists, who said they didn't
> hear it. The teens were black while the cyclists were white.
>
> The cyclists wonder whether race had anything to do with the attack. They
> can't understand what caused it.
>
> "I could imagine if we had said something but nothing was said," Gorman
> said.
>
> Gorman suffered the worst beating. She went to the emergency room but has no
> insurance to pay for it.
>
> "I got bruised up pretty good," Gorman said. "I got my behind handed to me."
>
> A fourth teenager with the group apparently stood by during the attack but
> then apologized afterward just before everybody scattered and police
> arrived.
>
>

And I thought Portland was generally regarded as very cyclist friendly!
If thats friendly I would hate to see hostile. Strange (or maybe not)
that race was mentioned in the article. I wonder if it was a
predominately black (African American or whatever) part of town.

Ken
--
The bicycle is just as good company as most husbands and, when it gets
old and shabby, a woman can dispose of it and get a new one without
shocking the entire community. ~Ann Strong

[Roger Zoul]

Bill Baka wrote:
:: Gooserider wrote:
::: "Tom Keats" > wrote in message
::: ...
:::: In article >,
:::: (Random Waftings Of Bunker Blasts)
:::: writes:
::::
::::: I wonder what the assailants' Free Republic handles were.
:::: Sounds to me like a case of punk-ettes looking for
:::: peurile, bullying kicks, beligerently blocking a bike
:::: lane, and waiting for the next victimizable cyclist(s)
:::: to come along, to pick-on.
::::
:::: It's old hat stuff. Except cases of inter-female
:::: bullying are now being more publicized.
::::
::::
:::: cheers,
:::: Tom
::::
:::
::: Well, except for the racial aspect. If three white teenagers beat
::: two black cyclists while spouting racial slurs, this would be the
::: lead story on every networks' newscast, and the assailants' photos
::: would be splashed on every newspaper and magazine in the country.
::: But the victims were white so this story will remain a local one,
::: and a minor local one at that.
:::
:::
:: You've noticed that aspect? I am now a minority in California, being
:: white, yet discriminated against because of it.

So, who has discriminated against you, Bill?

:: Affirmative action
:: just means that my job will be given to a less qualified person 'of
:: some color'. It has gotten out of hand.

Are you sure that person, who goes your job, will be less qualified than
you? Also, many new hires, of any color, are less qualified that old hounds
and work for less pay. Watch out that you don't get replaced because you're
an old dog.

[Roger Zoul]

Ken C. M. wrote:
:: Gooserider wrote:
::: Wow. And that's a bike friendly city. I hope the assailants are
::: caught and sent to prison.
:::
::: http://www.katu.com/news/5184291.html
:::
::: PORTLAND, Ore. - Two cyclists said they were attacked by three
::: teenagers near a north Portland bus stop on Wednesday.
:::
::: The women, Ashley Gorman and her co-worker Heather Moles, were
::: riding their bikes home from work when the attack occurred near
::: Legacy Emanuel Hospital.
:::
::: The cyclists said the teen girls were standing in the bike lane
::: waiting for the bus and they had to steer their bikes around the
::: group. The teens may have thought the cyclists rode too closely.
:::
::: The next thing she knew, one of the teens kicked out Moles' tire,
::: causing her to fall.
:::
::: "I felt the thud, and then the tire went, and I went skidding into
::: the road," Moles said.
:::
::: That's when the beating began. Three teens punched both cyclists in
::: the head and dislocated Moles' shoulder.
:::
::: Jonathan Corey was passing by and helped break up the fight,
::: pulling the teens off the cyclists.
:::
::: "It became obvious who was the aggressor in the whole equation," he
::: said.
:::
::: Corey added that the assailants were ruthless.
:::
::: "I felt like I almost didn't use enough force in retrospect as I
::: might have wanted to to make the thing stop," he said.
:::
::: One witness heard a racial slur aimed at the cyclists, who said
::: they didn't hear it. The teens were black while the cyclists were
::: white.
:::
::: The cyclists wonder whether race had anything to do with the
::: attack. They can't understand what caused it.
:::
::: "I could imagine if we had said something but nothing was said,"
::: Gorman said.
:::
::: Gorman suffered the worst beating. She went to the emergency room
::: but has no insurance to pay for it.
:::
::: "I got bruised up pretty good," Gorman said. "I got my behind
::: handed to me."
:::
::: A fourth teenager with the group apparently stood by during the
::: attack but then apologized afterward just before everybody
::: scattered and police arrived.
:::
:::
::
:: And I thought Portland was generally regarded as very cyclist
:: friendly! If thats friendly I would hate to see hostile.

Surely you don't judge an entire city by the acts of a few stupid teens....

Strange (or
:: maybe not) that race was mentioned in the article. I wonder if it
:: was a predominately black (African American or whatever) part of
:: town.

Maybe it was just a random occurence. Who knows. Geez, people.

[Gooserider]

"Roger Zoul" > wrote in message
...
> Ken C. M. wrote:
> :: Gooserider wrote:
> ::: Wow. And that's a bike friendly city. I hope the assailants are
> ::: caught and sent to prison.
> :::
> ::: http://www.katu.com/news/5184291.html
> :::
> ::: PORTLAND, Ore. - Two cyclists said they were attacked by three
> ::: teenagers near a north Portland bus stop on Wednesday.
> :::
> ::: The women, Ashley Gorman and her co-worker Heather Moles, were
> ::: riding their bikes home from work when the attack occurred near
> ::: Legacy Emanuel Hospital.
> :::
> ::: The cyclists said the teen girls were standing in the bike lane
> ::: waiting for the bus and they had to steer their bikes around the
> ::: group. The teens may have thought the cyclists rode too closely.
> :::
> ::: The next thing she knew, one of the teens kicked out Moles' tire,
> ::: causing her to fall.
> :::
> ::: "I felt the thud, and then the tire went, and I went skidding into
> ::: the road," Moles said.
> :::
> ::: That's when the beating began. Three teens punched both cyclists in
> ::: the head and dislocated Moles' shoulder.
> :::
> ::: Jonathan Corey was passing by and helped break up the fight,
> ::: pulling the teens off the cyclists.
> :::
> ::: "It became obvious who was the aggressor in the whole equation," he
> ::: said.
> :::
> ::: Corey added that the assailants were ruthless.
> :::
> ::: "I felt like I almost didn't use enough force in retrospect as I
> ::: might have wanted to to make the thing stop," he said.
> :::
> ::: One witness heard a racial slur aimed at the cyclists, who said
> ::: they didn't hear it. The teens were black while the cyclists were
> ::: white.
> :::
> ::: The cyclists wonder whether race had anything to do with the
> ::: attack. They can't understand what caused it.
> :::
> ::: "I could imagine if we had said something but nothing was said,"
> ::: Gorman said.
> :::
> ::: Gorman suffered the worst beating. She went to the emergency room
> ::: but has no insurance to pay for it.
> :::
> ::: "I got bruised up pretty good," Gorman said. "I got my behind
> ::: handed to me."
> :::
> ::: A fourth teenager with the group apparently stood by during the
> ::: attack but then apologized afterward just before everybody
> ::: scattered and police arrived.
> :::
> :::
> ::
> :: And I thought Portland was generally regarded as very cyclist
> :: friendly! If thats friendly I would hate to see hostile.
>
> Surely you don't judge an entire city by the acts of a few stupid
> teens....
>
> Strange (or
> :: maybe not) that race was mentioned in the article. I wonder if it
> :: was a predominately black (African American or whatever) part of
> :: town.
>
> Maybe it was just a random occurence. Who knows. Geez, people.
>
>

And MAYBE the black girls attacked two white women because they were white,
and did so while calling them racial slurs. Geez, Roger.

[Random Waftings Of Bunker Blasts]

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 05:37:03 -0500, "Gooserider"
> said:

>Nice. You read a story about two white women being beaten up by four black
>teenagers---and your first instinct is to blame it on Freepers?

Where in the story does it say what color the assailants or the victims
are???

To me the attack sounded no different from what the Free Republic types have
done around here.

--

Buy my book about school bullying here:

http://www.lulu.com/content/112781 (recommended)
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=1411626559
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1411626559

[Sir Ridesalot]

Random Waftings Of Bunker Blasts wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 05:37:03 -0500, "Gooserider"
> > said:
>
> >Nice. You read a story about two white women being beaten up by four black
> >teenagers---and your first instinct is to blame it on Freepers?
>
> Where in the story does it say what color the assailants or the victims
> are???
>
> To me the attack sounded no different from what the Free Republic types have
> done around here.
>
> --
>

Hi there.

Just curious, did you read the article? <G>

If you read the whole article you will see these lines:

> ::: One witness heard a racial slur aimed at the cyclists, who said
> ::: they didn't hear it. The teens were black while the cyclists were
> ::: white.

That is where the skin colours was mentioned.

Peter

[Random Waftings Of Bunker Blasts]

On 15 Jan 2007 19:48:37 -0800, "Sir Ridesalot" >
said:

>If you read the whole article you will see these lines:

That was not mentioned in the original article.

--

Buy my book about school bullying here:

http://www.lulu.com/content/112781 (recommended)
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=1411626559
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1411626559

[Roger Zoul]

Gooserider wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" > wrote in message
:: ...
::: Ken C. M. wrote:
::::: Gooserider wrote:
:::::: Wow. And that's a bike friendly city. I hope the assailants are
:::::: caught and sent to prison.
::::::
:::::: http://www.katu.com/news/5184291.html
::::::
:::::: PORTLAND, Ore. - Two cyclists said they were attacked by three
:::::: teenagers near a north Portland bus stop on Wednesday.
::::::
:::::: The women, Ashley Gorman and her co-worker Heather Moles, were
:::::: riding their bikes home from work when the attack occurred near
:::::: Legacy Emanuel Hospital.
::::::
:::::: The cyclists said the teen girls were standing in the bike lane
:::::: waiting for the bus and they had to steer their bikes around the
:::::: group. The teens may have thought the cyclists rode too closely.
::::::
:::::: The next thing she knew, one of the teens kicked out Moles' tire,
:::::: causing her to fall.
::::::
:::::: "I felt the thud, and then the tire went, and I went skidding
:::::: into the road," Moles said.
::::::
:::::: That's when the beating began. Three teens punched both cyclists
:::::: in the head and dislocated Moles' shoulder.
::::::
:::::: Jonathan Corey was passing by and helped break up the fight,
:::::: pulling the teens off the cyclists.
::::::
:::::: "It became obvious who was the aggressor in the whole equation,"
:::::: he said.
::::::
:::::: Corey added that the assailants were ruthless.
::::::
:::::: "I felt like I almost didn't use enough force in retrospect as I
:::::: might have wanted to to make the thing stop," he said.
::::::
:::::: One witness heard a racial slur aimed at the cyclists, who said
:::::: they didn't hear it. The teens were black while the cyclists were
:::::: white.
::::::
:::::: The cyclists wonder whether race had anything to do with the
:::::: attack. They can't understand what caused it.
::::::
:::::: "I could imagine if we had said something but nothing was said,"
:::::: Gorman said.
::::::
:::::: Gorman suffered the worst beating. She went to the emergency room
:::::: but has no insurance to pay for it.
::::::
:::::: "I got bruised up pretty good," Gorman said. "I got my behind
:::::: handed to me."
::::::
:::::: A fourth teenager with the group apparently stood by during the
:::::: attack but then apologized afterward just before everybody
:::::: scattered and police arrived.
::::::
::::::
:::::
::::: And I thought Portland was generally regarded as very cyclist
::::: friendly! If thats friendly I would hate to see hostile.
:::
::: Surely you don't judge an entire city by the acts of a few stupid
::: teens....
:::
::: Strange (or
::::: maybe not) that race was mentioned in the article. I wonder if it
::::: was a predominately black (African American or whatever) part of
::::: town.
:::
::: Maybe it was just a random occurence. Who knows. Geez, people.
:::
:::
::
:: And MAYBE the black girls attacked two white women because they were
:: white, and did so while calling them racial slurs. Geez, Roger.

Given that you nor I were there, we'll never know. For all you know, one of
the women on bike could have said something to incite them.

[Zoot Katz]

On 15 Jan 2007 19:48:37 -0800, "Sir Ridesalot"
> wrote:

>
>> ::: One witness heard a racial slur aimed at the cyclists, who said
>> ::: they didn't hear it. The teens were black while the cyclists were
>> ::: white.
>
>That is where the skin colours was mentioned.
>
Had both the assailants and victims been the same skin colour the
story wouldn't have made ink unless one was trying to highlight the
gender angle.

It's probably a scenario that is repeated several times per week in
other cities across the country but Portland's awareness of bicycling
issues got it reported by the media there.
--
zk

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
"Roger Zoul" > writes:

>::: Maybe it was just a random occurence. Who knows. Geez, people.
>:::
>:::
>::
>:: And MAYBE the black girls attacked two white women because they were
>:: white, and did so while calling them racial slurs. Geez, Roger.
>
> Given that you nor I were there, we'll never know. For all you know, one of
> the women on bike could have said something to incite them.

As you say, we weren't there.

But I just can't help intuitively feeling that
perceived affluence & corresponding attitudes was
a larger factor in this incident, than "race".
Maybe my own life experience of growing up in a
city with a distinct "east side" and "west side"
is affecting my view.

I don't know where Legacy Emanuel Hospital is in
Portland, but I do know that Portland is more
complicated that cities with simple east/west or
north/south economic demographics.

But the M.O. of punks from the working-class/industrial
area/immigrant-enclave part of town, standing in the way
and beligerently challenging oncomers (especially "rich"
interlopers) is all too familiar to me.

So I have the feeling these victims may have been
picked-on because they were /perceived/ as "rich chicks"
with fancy, expensive bikes, sticking their /perceived/
Conspicuous Consumerism in other people's faces.

Or maybe the perps thought the cyclists were gay,
and it's a case of [misguided] gay-bashing?

I dunno.

But as a life-long city boy, I do know when I'm
confrontin'. And I know when to back-off.

I guess these ladies didn't.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Bill Baka]

Roger Zoul wrote:
> Bill Baka wrote:
> :: Gooserider wrote:
> ::: "Tom Keats" > wrote in message
> ::: ...
> :::: In article >,
> :::: (Random Waftings Of Bunker Blasts)
> :::: writes:
> ::::
> ::::: I wonder what the assailants' Free Republic handles were.
> :::: Sounds to me like a case of punk-ettes looking for
> :::: peurile, bullying kicks, beligerently blocking a bike
> :::: lane, and waiting for the next victimizable cyclist(s)
> :::: to come along, to pick-on.
> ::::
> :::: It's old hat stuff. Except cases of inter-female
> :::: bullying are now being more publicized.
> ::::
> ::::
> :::: cheers,
> :::: Tom
> ::::
> :::
> ::: Well, except for the racial aspect. If three white teenagers beat
> ::: two black cyclists while spouting racial slurs, this would be the
> ::: lead story on every networks' newscast, and the assailants' photos
> ::: would be splashed on every newspaper and magazine in the country.
> ::: But the victims were white so this story will remain a local one,
> ::: and a minor local one at that.
> :::
> :::
> :: You've noticed that aspect? I am now a minority in California, being
> :: white, yet discriminated against because of it.
>
> So, who has discriminated against you, Bill?

Working in electronics I would now have to be Chinese or East Indian or
willing to move there to train more replacements for the few remaining
high tech jobs. Not me, all American born engineers.
>
> :: Affirmative action
> :: just means that my job will be given to a less qualified person 'of
> :: some color'. It has gotten out of hand.
>
> Are you sure that person, who goes your job, will be less qualified than
> you? Also, many new hires, of any color, are less qualified that old hounds
> and work for less pay. Watch out that you don't get replaced because you're
> an old dog.
>
I'm an old dog who knows a lot more than the kiddies they bring in at
half the price. I've had to train (and once fire) guys with Ph.d.s who
really almost did not know which end of a screwdriver to hold. It would
have been fun with the soldering iron on the bench.
Big degrees, no real bigger brains.
The new world order, remember?
Bill Baka

[Dennis P. Harris]

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 15:53:08 GMT in rec.bicycles.misc, Bill Baka
> wrote:

> You've noticed that aspect? I am now a minority in California, being
> white, yet discriminated against because of it. Affirmative action just
> means that my job will be given to a less qualified person 'of some
> color'.

i thought baka the bigot had been killfiled! oh well, PLONK

[Gooserider]

"Random Waftings Of Bunker Blasts" > wrote in
message ...
> On 15 Jan 2007 19:48:37 -0800, "Sir Ridesalot"
> >
> said:
>
>>If you read the whole article you will see these lines:
>
> That was not mentioned in the original article.

YES IT WAS.

http://www.katu.com/news/5184291.html

One witness heard a racial slur aimed at the cyclists, who said they didn't
hear it. The teens were black while the cyclists were white.





Can you read? It's right there in black and white, along with a nice
picture of the two white victims. This was a racial attack.



> Buy my book about school bullying here:
>
> http://www.lulu.com/content/112781 (recommended)
> http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=1411626559
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1411626559

[Gooserider]

"Roger Zoul" > wrote in message
...
> Gooserider wrote:
> :: "Roger Zoul" > wrote in message
> :: ...
> ::: Ken C. M. wrote:
> ::::: Gooserider wrote:
> :::::: Wow. And that's a bike friendly city. I hope the assailants are
> :::::: caught and sent to prison.
> ::::::
> :::::: http://www.katu.com/news/5184291.html
> ::::::
> :::::: PORTLAND, Ore. - Two cyclists said they were attacked by three
> :::::: teenagers near a north Portland bus stop on Wednesday.
> ::::::
> :::::: The women, Ashley Gorman and her co-worker Heather Moles, were
> :::::: riding their bikes home from work when the attack occurred near
> :::::: Legacy Emanuel Hospital.
> ::::::
> :::::: The cyclists said the teen girls were standing in the bike lane
> :::::: waiting for the bus and they had to steer their bikes around the
> :::::: group. The teens may have thought the cyclists rode too closely.
> ::::::
> :::::: The next thing she knew, one of the teens kicked out Moles' tire,
> :::::: causing her to fall.
> ::::::
> :::::: "I felt the thud, and then the tire went, and I went skidding
> :::::: into the road," Moles said.
> ::::::
> :::::: That's when the beating began. Three teens punched both cyclists
> :::::: in the head and dislocated Moles' shoulder.
> ::::::
> :::::: Jonathan Corey was passing by and helped break up the fight,
> :::::: pulling the teens off the cyclists.
> ::::::
> :::::: "It became obvious who was the aggressor in the whole equation,"
> :::::: he said.
> ::::::
> :::::: Corey added that the assailants were ruthless.
> ::::::
> :::::: "I felt like I almost didn't use enough force in retrospect as I
> :::::: might have wanted to to make the thing stop," he said.
> ::::::
> :::::: One witness heard a racial slur aimed at the cyclists, who said
> :::::: they didn't hear it. The teens were black while the cyclists were
> :::::: white.
> ::::::
> :::::: The cyclists wonder whether race had anything to do with the
> :::::: attack. They can't understand what caused it.
> ::::::
> :::::: "I could imagine if we had said something but nothing was said,"
> :::::: Gorman said.
> ::::::
> :::::: Gorman suffered the worst beating. She went to the emergency room
> :::::: but has no insurance to pay for it.
> ::::::
> :::::: "I got bruised up pretty good," Gorman said. "I got my behind
> :::::: handed to me."
> ::::::
> :::::: A fourth teenager with the group apparently stood by during the
> :::::: attack but then apologized afterward just before everybody
> :::::: scattered and police arrived.
> ::::::
> ::::::
> :::::
> ::::: And I thought Portland was generally regarded as very cyclist
> ::::: friendly! If thats friendly I would hate to see hostile.
> :::
> ::: Surely you don't judge an entire city by the acts of a few stupid
> ::: teens....
> :::
> ::: Strange (or
> ::::: maybe not) that race was mentioned in the article. I wonder if it
> ::::: was a predominately black (African American or whatever) part of
> ::::: town.
> :::
> ::: Maybe it was just a random occurence. Who knows. Geez, people.
> :::
> :::
> ::
> :: And MAYBE the black girls attacked two white women because they were
> :: white, and did so while calling them racial slurs. Geez, Roger.
>
> Given that you nor I were there, we'll never know. For all you know, one
> of the women on bike could have said something to incite them.

Nothing they could have said(and they insist they said nothing) justifies a
BEATING. What kind of bull is that, Roger? Even if the two cyclists were
n-word spouting skinheads, no words justify a beating. Why are you so
unwilling to believe this is what it obviously is---a racial attack?
Unbelievable.

[Mark Hickey]

(Tom Keats) wrote:

>So I have the feeling these victims may have been
>picked-on because they were /perceived/ as "rich chicks"
>with fancy, expensive bikes, sticking their /perceived/
>Conspicuous Consumerism in other people's faces.
>
>Or maybe the perps thought the cyclists were gay,
>and it's a case of [misguided] gay-bashing?
>
>I dunno.
>
>But as a life-long city boy, I do know when I'm
>confrontin'. And I know when to back-off.
>
>I guess these ladies didn't.

Would you say the same about if the victims had been black and a group
of affluent white girls had attacked them because of their hip-hop
dress and attitude? If only they had "backed off"...

Exactly how DO you "back off" when your "insult" is being white and
riding a bike? Personally, I'm not quite sure how to do that. I've
ridden thousands of miles through predominantly black neighborhoods
and never realized that I needed to "back off".

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

[[email protected]]

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 05:51:17 GMT, (Random
Waftings Of Bunker Blasts) wrote:

>On 15 Jan 2007 19:48:37 -0800, "Sir Ridesalot" >
>said:
>
>>If you read the whole article you will see these lines:
>
>That was not mentioned in the original article.

Yes it was:

<quote from the web-page>

"The teens were black while the cyclists were white."

<end quote>

And it was repeated in the newsgroup posting, and in the reply to you.

That's four times now, wanna try again?

[Stephen Harding]

Gooserider wrote:

> Nothing they could have said(and they insist they said nothing) justifies a
> BEATING. What kind of bull is that, Roger? Even if the two cyclists were
> n-word spouting skinheads, no words justify a beating. Why are you so
> unwilling to believe this is what it obviously is---a racial attack?
> Unbelievable.

While I believe there may have been racism involved in the
attack, there is also the aspect of the attackers just being
idiot teenagers.

Sometimes the behavior of teenagers toward non-members of
their group is amazing!

I typically use a bike path for part of my work commute and
have occasionally had to deal with knucklehead teenagers
walking down the path 3-4 abreast and refusing to share the
path whatsoever. They knew I was behind them: I rang my bell
and did the "trying to pass" finally giving up and riding on
to the grass off the path to get by them (muttering "it's a
herd of idiots" not too weakly under my breath in passing).

Sometimes teenagers [especially in groups] do really dumb
things and race doesn't really have any root cause in it.

But I agree that "racism" is largely defined as white persons
doing harm to black/brown/red/yellow persons in this country
now. "Racism is a white man's disease" was stated by a local
Hispanic city council member some years back; which only goes
to prove there really is equality between races: we're all
equally capable of racist thinking.


SMH

[Stephen Harding]

Bill Baka wrote:

> half the price. I've had to train (and once fire) guys with Ph.d.s who
> really almost did not know which end of a screwdriver to hold. It would

PhD's making use of screwdrivers???

What sort of jobs were they doing?


SMH

[Roger Zoul]

Bill Baka wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::: Bill Baka wrote:
::::: Gooserider wrote:
:::::: "Tom Keats" > wrote in message
:::::: ...
::::::: In article >,
::::::: (Random Waftings Of Bunker Blasts)
::::::: writes:
:::::::
:::::::: I wonder what the assailants' Free Republic handles were.
::::::: Sounds to me like a case of punk-ettes looking for
::::::: peurile, bullying kicks, beligerently blocking a bike
::::::: lane, and waiting for the next victimizable cyclist(s)
::::::: to come along, to pick-on.
:::::::
::::::: It's old hat stuff. Except cases of inter-female
::::::: bullying are now being more publicized.
:::::::
:::::::
::::::: cheers,
::::::: Tom
:::::::
::::::
:::::: Well, except for the racial aspect. If three white teenagers beat
:::::: two black cyclists while spouting racial slurs, this would be the
:::::: lead story on every networks' newscast, and the assailants'
:::::: photos would be splashed on every newspaper and magazine in the
:::::: country. But the victims were white so this story will remain a
:::::: local one, and a minor local one at that.
::::::
::::::
::::: You've noticed that aspect? I am now a minority in California,
::::: being white, yet discriminated against because of it.
:::
::: So, who has discriminated against you, Bill?
::
:: Working in electronics I would now have to be Chinese or East Indian
:: or willing to move there to train more replacements for the few
:: remaining high tech jobs. Not me, all American born engineers.
:::
::::: Affirmative action
::::: just means that my job will be given to a less qualified person
::::: 'of some color'. It has gotten out of hand.
:::
::: Are you sure that person, who goes your job, will be less qualified
::: than you? Also, many new hires, of any color, are less qualified
::: that old hounds and work for less pay. Watch out that you don't
::: get replaced because you're an old dog.
:::
:: I'm an old dog who knows a lot more than the kiddies they bring in at
:: half the price. I've had to train (and once fire) guys with Ph.d.s
:: who really almost did not know which end of a screwdriver to hold.

Why in the world did they have you training them? Obvious mismatch.

:: It would have been fun with the soldering iron on the bench.
:: Big degrees, no real bigger brains.
:: The new world order, remember?

Not really.

:: Bill Baka

[Roger Zoul]

Tom Keats wrote:
:: In article >,
:: "Roger Zoul" > writes:
::
:::::: Maybe it was just a random occurence. Who knows. Geez, people.
::::::
::::::
:::::
::::: And MAYBE the black girls attacked two white women because they
::::: were white, and did so while calling them racial slurs. Geez,
::::: Roger.
:::
::: Given that you nor I were there, we'll never know. For all you
::: know, one of the women on bike could have said something to incite
::: them.
::
:: As you say, we weren't there.
::
:: But I just can't help intuitively feeling that
:: perceived affluence & corresponding attitudes was
:: a larger factor in this incident, than "race".

Could very well be...

:: Maybe my own life experience of growing up in a
:: city with a distinct "east side" and "west side"
:: is affecting my view.
::
:: I don't know where Legacy Emanuel Hospital is in
:: Portland, but I do know that Portland is more
:: complicated that cities with simple east/west or
:: north/south economic demographics.
::
:: But the M.O. of punks from the working-class/industrial
:: area/immigrant-enclave part of town, standing in the way
:: and beligerently challenging oncomers (especially "rich"
:: interlopers) is all too familiar to me.
::
:: So I have the feeling these victims may have been
:: picked-on because they were /perceived/ as "rich chicks"
:: with fancy, expensive bikes, sticking their /perceived/
:: Conspicuous Consumerism in other people's faces.
::

Very possible.....

:: Or maybe the perps thought the cyclists were gay,
:: and it's a case of [misguided] gay-bashing?
::

Again, very possible...


:: I dunno.
::
:: But as a life-long city boy, I do know when I'm
:: confrontin'. And I know when to back-off.

I tell you what....I'm surprised the ladies on bikes let them get so close.
It's hard to know the circumstances, but if I were riding and saw them
threatening kids ahead in the bike lane, I'd have either turned around or
swung wide with speed. Could be the problem started with the kids standing
in the bike lane and the cyclists trying to use that lane too.

::
:: I guess these ladies didn't.
::

Right. Perhaps the kids were gang members trying to earn some respect.

::
:: cheers,
:: Tom
::
:: --
:: Nothing is safe from me.
:: Above address is just a spam midden.
:: I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Roger Zoul]

Mark Hickey wrote:
:: (Tom Keats) wrote:
::
::: So I have the feeling these victims may have been
::: picked-on because they were /perceived/ as "rich chicks"
::: with fancy, expensive bikes, sticking their /perceived/
::: Conspicuous Consumerism in other people's faces.
:::
::: Or maybe the perps thought the cyclists were gay,
::: and it's a case of [misguided] gay-bashing?
:::
::: I dunno.
:::
::: But as a life-long city boy, I do know when I'm
::: confrontin'. And I know when to back-off.
:::
::: I guess these ladies didn't.
::
:: Would you say the same about if the victims had been black and a
:: group of affluent white girls had attacked them because of their
:: hip-hop dress and attitude? If only they had "backed off"...
::
:: Exactly how DO you "back off" when your "insult" is being white and
:: riding a bike? Personally, I'm not quite sure how to do that. I've
:: ridden thousands of miles through predominantly black neighborhoods
:: and never realized that I needed to "back off".

I took it to mean use some caution in a potentially dangerous situation.
The backing off part would be to alter your course, speed up, etc., rather
than just riding into trouble.

Again, we can't know for sure that this was only racially motivated. The
trigger might have been something else and the racial slurs came "just
because.".

[Roger Zoul]

Gooserider wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" > wrote in message
:: ...
::: Gooserider wrote:
::::: "Roger Zoul" > wrote in message
::::: ...
:::::: Ken C. M. wrote:
:::::::: Gooserider wrote:
::::::::: Wow. And that's a bike friendly city. I hope the assailants
::::::::: are caught and sent to prison.
:::::::::
::::::::: http://www.katu.com/news/5184291.html
:::::::::
::::::::: PORTLAND, Ore. - Two cyclists said they were attacked by three
::::::::: teenagers near a north Portland bus stop on Wednesday.
:::::::::
::::::::: The women, Ashley Gorman and her co-worker Heather Moles, were
::::::::: riding their bikes home from work when the attack occurred
::::::::: near Legacy Emanuel Hospital.
:::::::::
::::::::: The cyclists said the teen girls were standing in the bike
::::::::: lane waiting for the bus and they had to steer their bikes
::::::::: around the group. The teens may have thought the cyclists
::::::::: rode too closely.
:::::::::
::::::::: The next thing she knew, one of the teens kicked out Moles'
::::::::: tire, causing her to fall.
:::::::::
::::::::: "I felt the thud, and then the tire went, and I went skidding
::::::::: into the road," Moles said.
:::::::::
::::::::: That's when the beating began. Three teens punched both
::::::::: cyclists in the head and dislocated Moles' shoulder.
:::::::::
::::::::: Jonathan Corey was passing by and helped break up the fight,
::::::::: pulling the teens off the cyclists.
:::::::::
::::::::: "It became obvious who was the aggressor in the whole
::::::::: equation," he said.
:::::::::
::::::::: Corey added that the assailants were ruthless.
:::::::::
::::::::: "I felt like I almost didn't use enough force in retrospect
::::::::: as I might have wanted to to make the thing stop," he said.
:::::::::
::::::::: One witness heard a racial slur aimed at the cyclists, who
::::::::: said they didn't hear it. The teens were black while the
::::::::: cyclists were white.
:::::::::
::::::::: The cyclists wonder whether race had anything to do with the
::::::::: attack. They can't understand what caused it.
:::::::::
::::::::: "I could imagine if we had said something but nothing was
::::::::: said," Gorman said.
:::::::::
::::::::: Gorman suffered the worst beating. She went to the emergency
::::::::: room but has no insurance to pay for it.
:::::::::
::::::::: "I got bruised up pretty good," Gorman said. "I got my behind
::::::::: handed to me."
:::::::::
::::::::: A fourth teenager with the group apparently stood by during
::::::::: the attack but then apologized afterward just before everybody
::::::::: scattered and police arrived.
:::::::::
:::::::::
::::::::
:::::::: And I thought Portland was generally regarded as very cyclist
:::::::: friendly! If thats friendly I would hate to see hostile.
::::::
:::::: Surely you don't judge an entire city by the acts of a few stupid
:::::: teens....
::::::
:::::: Strange (or
:::::::: maybe not) that race was mentioned in the article. I wonder if
:::::::: it was a predominately black (African American or whatever)
:::::::: part of town.
::::::
:::::: Maybe it was just a random occurence. Who knows. Geez, people.
::::::
::::::
:::::
::::: And MAYBE the black girls attacked two white women because they
::::: were white, and did so while calling them racial slurs. Geez,
::::: Roger.
:::
::: Given that you nor I were there, we'll never know. For all you
::: know, one of the women on bike could have said something to incite
::: them.
::
:: Nothing they could have said(and they insist they said nothing)
:: justifies a BEATING. What kind of bull is that, Roger? Even if the
:: two cyclists were n-word spouting skinheads, no words justify a
:: beating. Why are you so unwilling to believe this is what it
:: obviously is---a racial attack? Unbelievable.

Who said anything at all about the attack being justified? Are you truly
this stupid? I don't think it was justified in any manner whatsoever.
However, I'm not so willing to believe as you are, that it was racially
motivated. Perhaps that's the "easy" answer, but so what? That doesn't make
it so.

Obviously, you have some issues.

[Roger Zoul]

Stephen Harding wrote:
:: Gooserider wrote:
::
::: Nothing they could have said(and they insist they said nothing)
::: justifies a BEATING. What kind of bull is that, Roger? Even if the
::: two cyclists were n-word spouting skinheads, no words justify a
::: beating. Why are you so unwilling to believe this is what it
::: obviously is---a racial attack? Unbelievable.
::
:: While I believe there may have been racism involved in the
:: attack, there is also the aspect of the attackers just being
:: idiot teenagers.
::
:: Sometimes the behavior of teenagers toward non-members of
:: their group is amazing!
::
:: I typically use a bike path for part of my work commute and
:: have occasionally had to deal with knucklehead teenagers
:: walking down the path 3-4 abreast and refusing to share the
:: path whatsoever. They knew I was behind them: I rang my bell
:: and did the "trying to pass" finally giving up and riding on
:: to the grass off the path to get by them (muttering "it's a
:: herd of idiots" not too weakly under my breath in passing).
::
:: Sometimes teenagers [especially in groups] do really dumb
:: things and race doesn't really have any root cause in it.
::
:: But I agree that "racism" is largely defined as white persons
:: doing harm to black/brown/red/yellow persons in this country
:: now. "Racism is a white man's disease" was stated by a local
:: Hispanic city council member some years back; which only goes
:: to prove there really is equality between races: we're all
:: equally capable of racist thinking.

I find it amazing that people would so quickly jump to "racism" as being the
sole reason for this attack. Perhaps the people in this thread just don't
get around to the right places enough. There are plenty of people who will
attack you simply because you're in the wrong place at the wrong time doing
the wrong thing wearing the wrong clothes, etc. It won't matter much what
color your skin is. If you're preceived as an outsider, you become the
target of the moment. People will degrade you in any way they can, too.
Imagine if one of these poor ladies has been grossly overweight. I'm sure
the word "fat" would have turned up too.

As for racism...there has always been hater among minority people for the
white man. However, it has historically been the case that discrimination
based on race was something that only those in power could do. Hence, the
those without power could only hate, but those with power could hate and
discriminate.

But you're exactly right, everyone has the ability to be racist.

[Random Waftings Of Bunker Blasts]

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 05:44:33 -0500, "Gooserider"
> said:

>YES IT WAS.

Um, no. It was not.

This part was not added until later.

--

Buy my book about school bullying here:

http://www.lulu.com/content/112781 (recommended)
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=1411626559
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1411626559

[Random Waftings Of Bunker Blasts]

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 13:33:38 GMT, said:

>Yes it was:

Um, no. It was not.

This part was not added until later.

--

Buy my book about school bullying here:

http://www.lulu.com/content/112781 (recommended)
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=1411626559
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1411626559

[Roger Zoul]

Gooserider wrote:
:: "Random Waftings Of Bunker Blasts" >
:: wrote in message ...
::: On 15 Jan 2007 19:48:37 -0800, "Sir Ridesalot"
::: >
::: said:
:::
:::: If you read the whole article you will see these lines:
:::
::: That was not mentioned in the original article.
::
:: YES IT WAS.
::
:: http://www.katu.com/news/5184291.html
::
:: One witness heard a racial slur aimed at the cyclists, who said they
:: didn't hear it. The teens were black while the cyclists were white.
::
::
::
::
::
:: Can you read? It's right there in black and white, along with a nice
:: picture of the two white victims. This was a racial attack.
::

You don't know this...you weren't there. Even the cyclist didn't know why
they got attacked. "A racial slur" doesn't mean it was a racially motivated
attack.

What's your issue?

::
::
::: Buy my book about school bullying here:
:::
::: http://www.lulu.com/content/112781 (recommended)
:::
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=1411626559
::: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1411626559

[Dane Buson]

Roger Zoul > wrote:
> Tom Keats wrote:
>
> :: I dunno.
> ::
> :: But as a life-long city boy, I do know when I'm
> :: confrontin'. And I know when to back-off.
>
> I tell you what....I'm surprised the ladies on bikes let them get so close.
> It's hard to know the circumstances, but if I were riding and saw them
> threatening kids ahead in the bike lane, I'd have either turned around or
> swung wide with speed. Could be the problem started with the kids standing
> in the bike lane and the cyclists trying to use that lane too.

Yes, the cause of the incident is now obvious to me. Bike lanes. If it
wasn't for them, the women in question would have been cycling in the
street and not had this problem (removes tongue from cheek).

Really though, I don't let anyone get within arms reach of me on the
bike if I can help it. Mainly because people do stupid random things
and I'd like a little maneuvering room. I would definitely have swung
well into the road.

--
Dane Buson -
You can take all the impact that science considerations have on funding
decisions at NASA, put them in the navel of a flea, and have room left
over for a caraway seed and Tony Calio's heart. -- F. Allen

[Bill Sornson]

Random Waftings Of Bunker Blasts wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 05:44:33 -0500, "Gooserider"
> > said:
>
>> YES IT WAS.
>
> Um, no. It was not.

Yes it was.

> This part was not added until later.

It's in the OP (original post).

Gee, for a supposed book writer your reading comprehension and retention
skills seem severely lacking. Good luck.

[[email protected]]

Roger Zoul wrote:
>
>
> Again, we can't know for sure that this was only racially motivated. The
> trigger might have been something else and the racial slurs came "just
> because.".

I think the point some posters were making was that many white-on-black
offenses are easily and enthusiastically labeled as "racist," while
black-on-white offenses aren't so easily labeled that way. Certainly,
if a group of whites attacked two blacks and yelled racist slurs, there
would be little doubt as to the black public's reaction.

I can remember one incident where I blared my car horn at a woman
driving stupidly and dangerously, who had nearly hit my car. Since I'm
white and she was black, she immediately yelled that I was a racist.
But sorry, I wasn't honking at race; I was honking at dangerous
stupidity.

- Frank Krygowski

[Random Waftings Of Bunker Blasts]

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:10:30 -0800, "Bill Sornson" > said:

>Yes it was.

No it wasn't, stupid.

I proved this to you already. If you can't figure that out, it's your
problem.

--

Buy my book about school bullying here:

http://www.lulu.com/content/112781 (recommended)
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=1411626559
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1411626559

[Gooserider]

"Random Waftings Of Bunker Blasts" > wrote in
message ...
> On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 05:44:33 -0500, "Gooserider"
> > said:
>
>>YES IT WAS.
>
> Um, no. It was not.
>
> This part was not added until later.
>
>
I posted the link. It was there. You missed it.

[Gooserider]

"Roger Zoul" > wrote in message
...
> Gooserider wrote:
> :: "Random Waftings Of Bunker Blasts" >
> :: wrote in message ...
> ::: On 15 Jan 2007 19:48:37 -0800, "Sir Ridesalot"
> ::: >
> ::: said:
> :::
> :::: If you read the whole article you will see these lines:
> :::
> ::: That was not mentioned in the original article.
> ::
> :: YES IT WAS.
> ::
> :: http://www.katu.com/news/5184291.html
> ::
> :: One witness heard a racial slur aimed at the cyclists, who said they
> :: didn't hear it. The teens were black while the cyclists were white.
> ::
> ::
> ::
> ::
> ::
> :: Can you read? It's right there in black and white, along with a nice
> :: picture of the two white victims. This was a racial attack.
> ::
>
> You don't know this...you weren't there. Even the cyclist didn't know why
> they got attacked. "A racial slur" doesn't mean it was a racially
> motivated attack.
>
> What's your issue?
>
> ::

So if three white guys beat up two black cyclists while shouting the n-word,
would you say the same thing? What's YOUR issue?

[Gooserider]

"Zoot Katz" > wrote in message
...
> On 15 Jan 2007 19:48:37 -0800, "Sir Ridesalot"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>> ::: One witness heard a racial slur aimed at the cyclists, who said
>>> ::: they didn't hear it. The teens were black while the cyclists were
>>> ::: white.
>>
>>That is where the skin colours was mentioned.
>>
> Had both the assailants and victims been the same skin colour the
> story wouldn't have made ink unless one was trying to highlight the
> gender angle.
>
> It's probably a scenario that is repeated several times per week in
> other cities across the country but Portland's awareness of bicycling
> issues got it reported by the media there.
> --
> zk

I'll go you one further---if the races had been reversed this would be a
national news story. "Racist attack in Portland", and all that.

[Gooserider]

"Roger Zoul" > wrote in message
...
> Mark Hickey wrote:
> :: (Tom Keats) wrote:
> ::
> ::: So I have the feeling these victims may have been
> ::: picked-on because they were /perceived/ as "rich chicks"
> ::: with fancy, expensive bikes, sticking their /perceived/
> ::: Conspicuous Consumerism in other people's faces.
> :::
> ::: Or maybe the perps thought the cyclists were gay,
> ::: and it's a case of [misguided] gay-bashing?
> :::
> ::: I dunno.
> :::
> ::: But as a life-long city boy, I do know when I'm
> ::: confrontin'. And I know when to back-off.
> :::
> ::: I guess these ladies didn't.
> ::
> :: Would you say the same about if the victims had been black and a
> :: group of affluent white girls had attacked them because of their
> :: hip-hop dress and attitude? If only they had "backed off"...
> ::
> :: Exactly how DO you "back off" when your "insult" is being white and
> :: riding a bike? Personally, I'm not quite sure how to do that. I've
> :: ridden thousands of miles through predominantly black neighborhoods
> :: and never realized that I needed to "back off".
>
> I took it to mean use some caution in a potentially dangerous situation.
> The backing off part would be to alter your course, speed up, etc., rather
> than just riding into trouble.
>
> Again, we can't know for sure that this was only racially motivated. The
> trigger might have been something else and the racial slurs came "just
> because.".
>
>

That doesn't matter. Once you're beating someone while calling them
"cracker" or "white bitch" or whatever, the attack morphs into a racial
attack. Unless, of course, you would say the same if three white guys beat
up two black cyclists while calling them the n-word or other racial slurs.

[Gooserider]

"Roger Zoul" > wrote in message
...
> Tom Keats wrote:
> :: In article >,
> :: "Roger Zoul" > writes:
> ::
> :::::: Maybe it was just a random occurence. Who knows. Geez, people.
> ::::::
> ::::::
> :::::
> ::::: And MAYBE the black girls attacked two white women because they
> ::::: were white, and did so while calling them racial slurs. Geez,
> ::::: Roger.
> :::
> ::: Given that you nor I were there, we'll never know. For all you
> ::: know, one of the women on bike could have said something to incite
> ::: them.
> ::
> :: As you say, we weren't there.
> ::
> :: But I just can't help intuitively feeling that
> :: perceived affluence & corresponding attitudes was
> :: a larger factor in this incident, than "race".
>
> Could very well be...
>
> :: Maybe my own life experience of growing up in a
> :: city with a distinct "east side" and "west side"
> :: is affecting my view.
> ::
> :: I don't know where Legacy Emanuel Hospital is in
> :: Portland, but I do know that Portland is more
> :: complicated that cities with simple east/west or
> :: north/south economic demographics.
> ::
> :: But the M.O. of punks from the working-class/industrial
> :: area/immigrant-enclave part of town, standing in the way
> :: and beligerently challenging oncomers (especially "rich"
> :: interlopers) is all too familiar to me.
> ::
> :: So I have the feeling these victims may have been
> :: picked-on because they were /perceived/ as "rich chicks"
> :: with fancy, expensive bikes, sticking their /perceived/
> :: Conspicuous Consumerism in other people's faces.
> ::
>
> Very possible.....
>
> :: Or maybe the perps thought the cyclists were gay,
> :: and it's a case of [misguided] gay-bashing?
> ::
>
> Again, very possible...
>
>
> :: I dunno.
> ::
> :: But as a life-long city boy, I do know when I'm
> :: confrontin'. And I know when to back-off.
>
> I tell you what....I'm surprised the ladies on bikes let them get so
> close. It's hard to know the circumstances, but if I were riding and saw
> them threatening kids ahead in the bike lane, I'd have either turned
> around or swung wide with speed. Could be the problem started with the
> kids standing in the bike lane and the cyclists trying to use that lane
> too.
>
> ::
> ::

Hey, common sense would dictate to give the people in the lane a wide berth,
but common sense doesn't always take precedence. Maybe the cyclists were
afraid of appearing racist?

[Gooserider]

"Roger Zoul" > wrote in message
...
> Gooserider wrote:
> :: "Roger Zoul" > wrote in message
> :: ...
> ::: Gooserider wrote:
> ::::: "Roger Zoul" > wrote in message
> ::::: ...
> :::::: Ken C. M. wrote:
> :::::::: Gooserider wrote:
> ::::::::: Wow. And that's a bike friendly city. I hope the assailants
> ::::::::: are caught and sent to prison.
> :::::::::
> ::::::::: http://www.katu.com/news/5184291.html
> :::::::::
> ::::::::: PORTLAND, Ore. - Two cyclists said they were attacked by three
> ::::::::: teenagers near a north Portland bus stop on Wednesday.
> :::::::::
> ::::::::: The women, Ashley Gorman and her co-worker Heather Moles, were
> ::::::::: riding their bikes home from work when the attack occurred
> ::::::::: near Legacy Emanuel Hospital.
> :::::::::
> ::::::::: The cyclists said the teen girls were standing in the bike
> ::::::::: lane waiting for the bus and they had to steer their bikes
> ::::::::: around the group. The teens may have thought the cyclists
> ::::::::: rode too closely.
> :::::::::
> ::::::::: The next thing she knew, one of the teens kicked out Moles'
> ::::::::: tire, causing her to fall.
> :::::::::
> ::::::::: "I felt the thud, and then the tire went, and I went skidding
> ::::::::: into the road," Moles said.
> :::::::::
> ::::::::: That's when the beating began. Three teens punched both
> ::::::::: cyclists in the head and dislocated Moles' shoulder.
> :::::::::
> ::::::::: Jonathan Corey was passing by and helped break up the fight,
> ::::::::: pulling the teens off the cyclists.
> :::::::::
> ::::::::: "It became obvious who was the aggressor in the whole
> ::::::::: equation," he said.
> :::::::::
> ::::::::: Corey added that the assailants were ruthless.
> :::::::::
> ::::::::: "I felt like I almost didn't use enough force in retrospect
> ::::::::: as I might have wanted to to make the thing stop," he said.
> :::::::::
> ::::::::: One witness heard a racial slur aimed at the cyclists, who
> ::::::::: said they didn't hear it. The teens were black while the
> ::::::::: cyclists were white.
> :::::::::
> ::::::::: The cyclists wonder whether race had anything to do with the
> ::::::::: attack. They can't understand what caused it.
> :::::::::
> ::::::::: "I could imagine if we had said something but nothing was
> ::::::::: said," Gorman said.
> :::::::::
> ::::::::: Gorman suffered the worst beating. She went to the emergency
> ::::::::: room but has no insurance to pay for it.
> :::::::::
> ::::::::: "I got bruised up pretty good," Gorman said. "I got my behind
> ::::::::: handed to me."
> :::::::::
> ::::::::: A fourth teenager with the group apparently stood by during
> ::::::::: the attack but then apologized afterward just before everybody
> ::::::::: scattered and police arrived.
> :::::::::
> :::::::::
> ::::::::
> :::::::: And I thought Portland was generally regarded as very cyclist
> :::::::: friendly! If thats friendly I would hate to see hostile.
> ::::::
> :::::: Surely you don't judge an entire city by the acts of a few stupid
> :::::: teens....
> ::::::
> :::::: Strange (or
> :::::::: maybe not) that race was mentioned in the article. I wonder if
> :::::::: it was a predominately black (African American or whatever)
> :::::::: part of town.
> ::::::
> :::::: Maybe it was just a random occurence. Who knows. Geez, people.
> ::::::
> ::::::
> :::::
> ::::: And MAYBE the black girls attacked two white women because they
> ::::: were white, and did so while calling them racial slurs. Geez,
> ::::: Roger.
> :::
> ::: Given that you nor I were there, we'll never know. For all you
> ::: know, one of the women on bike could have said something to incite
> ::: them.
> ::
> :: Nothing they could have said(and they insist they said nothing)
> :: justifies a BEATING. What kind of bull is that, Roger? Even if the
> :: two cyclists were n-word spouting skinheads, no words justify a
> :: beating. Why are you so unwilling to believe this is what it
> :: obviously is---a racial attack? Unbelievable.
>
> Who said anything at all about the attack being justified? Are you truly
> this stupid? I don't think it was justified in any manner whatsoever.
> However, I'm not so willing to believe as you are, that it was racially
> motivated. Perhaps that's the "easy" answer, but so what? That doesn't
> make it so.
>
> Obviously, you have some issues.

Once you said---"For all you know, one of the women on bike could have said
something to incite them."--you were looking for justification. You have
some issues, I think. A witness said that racial slurs were said during the
attack, the victims and attackers were of different races---what do you
THINK? Unreal. I seriously doubt you would be so easy going if the races in
this case were reversed. It's a racist attack, even if it didn't START that
way it became one.

[Bill Sornson]

Random Waftings Of Bunker Blasts wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:10:30 -0800, "Bill Sornson" >
> said:
>
>> Yes it was.
>
> No it wasn't, stupid.

Yes it was, moron.

> I proved this to you already.

To me? This was our first (and only) exchange.

> If you can't figure that out, it's your problem.

Do I really need to quote the OP? (Someone else did already, BTW.) The
reference to the racial element was included in the very first post on the
subject. (I pointed this out in my first reply BUT YOU DELETED IT.
Telling.)

Strange that you'd hide behind an anonymous user name yet spam your books
(including the "recommended" link LOL ) in every single post.

Shall we simply conclude that you're not too bright and leave it at that?

DONE.

BS

[Bill Baka]

Dennis P. Harris wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 15:53:08 GMT in rec.bicycles.misc, Bill Baka
> > wrote:
>
>> You've noticed that aspect? I am now a minority in California, being
>> white, yet discriminated against because of it. Affirmative action just
>> means that my job will be given to a less qualified person 'of some
>> color'.
>
> i thought baka the bigot had been killfiled! oh well, PLONK
>
Who's a bigot? YOU need to live in California.
Bill Baka

[Bill Baka]

Stephen Harding wrote:
> Bill Baka wrote:
>
>> half the price. I've had to train (and once fire) guys with Ph.d.s who
>> really almost did not know which end of a screwdriver to hold. It would
>
> PhD's making use of screwdrivers???
>
> What sort of jobs were they doing?
>
>
> SMH

Electronics system design.
I've had guys who could fill a blackboard (white board) with equations
that looked really fancy but couldn't design their way out of a wet
paper bag. Just because their parents bought the university a wing to
get their kid graduated does not make the 'Doctor' intelligent, just has
a piece of sheepskin to brag about.
Real reality, non television kind.
Bill Baka

[Bill Baka]

Roger Zoul wrote:
> Bill Baka wrote:
> :: Roger Zoul wrote:
> ::: Bill Baka wrote:
> ::::: Gooserider wrote:
> :::::: "Tom Keats" > wrote in message
> :::::: ...
> ::::::: In article >,
> ::::::: (Random Waftings Of Bunker Blasts)
> ::::::: writes:
> :::::::
> :::::::: I wonder what the assailants' Free Republic handles were.
> ::::::: Sounds to me like a case of punk-ettes looking for
> ::::::: peurile, bullying kicks, beligerently blocking a bike
> ::::::: lane, and waiting for the next victimizable cyclist(s)
> ::::::: to come along, to pick-on.
> :::::::
> ::::::: It's old hat stuff. Except cases of inter-female
> ::::::: bullying are now being more publicized.
> :::::::
> :::::::
> ::::::: cheers,
> ::::::: Tom
> :::::::
> ::::::
> :::::: Well, except for the racial aspect. If three white teenagers beat
> :::::: two black cyclists while spouting racial slurs, this would be the
> :::::: lead story on every networks' newscast, and the assailants'
> :::::: photos would be splashed on every newspaper and magazine in the
> :::::: country. But the victims were white so this story will remain a
> :::::: local one, and a minor local one at that.
> ::::::
> ::::::
> ::::: You've noticed that aspect? I am now a minority in California,
> ::::: being white, yet discriminated against because of it.
> :::
> ::: So, who has discriminated against you, Bill?
> ::
> :: Working in electronics I would now have to be Chinese or East Indian
> :: or willing to move there to train more replacements for the few
> :: remaining high tech jobs. Not me, all American born engineers.
> :::
> ::::: Affirmative action
> ::::: just means that my job will be given to a less qualified person
> ::::: 'of some color'. It has gotten out of hand.
> :::
> ::: Are you sure that person, who goes your job, will be less qualified
> ::: than you? Also, many new hires, of any color, are less qualified
> ::: that old hounds and work for less pay. Watch out that you don't
> ::: get replaced because you're an old dog.
> :::
> :: I'm an old dog who knows a lot more than the kiddies they bring in at
> :: half the price. I've had to train (and once fire) guys with Ph.d.s
> :: who really almost did not know which end of a screwdriver to hold.
>
> Why in the world did they have you training them? Obvious mismatch.

Many IT guys have complained that they were forced to train East Indians
for their job knowing that as soon as the new guy got up to speed he was
history.
>
> :: It would have been fun with the soldering iron on the bench.
> :: Big degrees, no real bigger brains.
> :: The new world order, remember?
>
> Not really.

You must have job security flipping burgers.
Bill Baka
>
> :: Bill Baka
>
>

[Bill Baka]

Roger Zoul wrote:
> Right. Perhaps the kids were gang members trying to earn some respect.
>
>
Uh-huh.
They proved that 3 black guys could beat up 2 white girls.
Do girly-men get repect for that kind of thing?
Bill Baka

[Random Waftings Of Bunker Blasts]

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 17:34:07 -0800, "Bill Sornson" > said:

>(I pointed this out in my first reply BUT YOU DELETED IT.
>Telling.)
>
>Strange that you'd hide behind an anonymous user name yet spam your books
>(including the "recommended" link LOL ) in every single post.

Now you're really making yourself sound like a loon.

>BS

Yes, this is something you are full of.

--

Buy my book about school bullying here:

http://www.lulu.com/content/112781 (recommended)
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=1411626559
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1411626559

[Roger Zoul]

Gooserider wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" > wrote in message
:: ...
::: Gooserider wrote:
::::: "Roger Zoul" > wrote in message
::::: ...
:::::: Gooserider wrote:
:::::::: "Roger Zoul" > wrote in message
:::::::: ...
::::::::: Ken C. M. wrote:
::::::::::: Gooserider wrote:
:::::::::::: Wow. And that's a bike friendly city. I hope the assailants
:::::::::::: are caught and sent to prison.
::::::::::::
:::::::::::: http://www.katu.com/news/5184291.html
::::::::::::
:::::::::::: PORTLAND, Ore. - Two cyclists said they were attacked by
:::::::::::: three teenagers near a north Portland bus stop on
:::::::::::: Wednesday.
::::::::::::
:::::::::::: The women, Ashley Gorman and her co-worker Heather Moles,
:::::::::::: were riding their bikes home from work when the attack
:::::::::::: occurred near Legacy Emanuel Hospital.
::::::::::::
:::::::::::: The cyclists said the teen girls were standing in the bike
:::::::::::: lane waiting for the bus and they had to steer their bikes
:::::::::::: around the group. The teens may have thought the cyclists
:::::::::::: rode too closely.
::::::::::::
:::::::::::: The next thing she knew, one of the teens kicked out Moles'
:::::::::::: tire, causing her to fall.
::::::::::::
:::::::::::: "I felt the thud, and then the tire went, and I went
:::::::::::: skidding into the road," Moles said.
::::::::::::
:::::::::::: That's when the beating began. Three teens punched both
:::::::::::: cyclists in the head and dislocated Moles' shoulder.
::::::::::::
:::::::::::: Jonathan Corey was passing by and helped break up the
:::::::::::: fight, pulling the teens off the cyclists.
::::::::::::
:::::::::::: "It became obvious who was the aggressor in the whole
:::::::::::: equation," he said.
::::::::::::
:::::::::::: Corey added that the assailants were ruthless.
::::::::::::
:::::::::::: "I felt like I almost didn't use enough force in retrospect
:::::::::::: as I might have wanted to to make the thing stop," he said.
::::::::::::
:::::::::::: One witness heard a racial slur aimed at the cyclists, who
:::::::::::: said they didn't hear it. The teens were black while the
:::::::::::: cyclists were white.
::::::::::::
:::::::::::: The cyclists wonder whether race had anything to do with
:::::::::::: the attack. They can't understand what caused it.
::::::::::::
:::::::::::: "I could imagine if we had said something but nothing was
:::::::::::: said," Gorman said.
::::::::::::
:::::::::::: Gorman suffered the worst beating. She went to the
:::::::::::: emergency room but has no insurance to pay for it.
::::::::::::
:::::::::::: "I got bruised up pretty good," Gorman said. "I got my
:::::::::::: behind handed to me."
::::::::::::
:::::::::::: A fourth teenager with the group apparently stood by during
:::::::::::: the attack but then apologized afterward just before
:::::::::::: everybody scattered and police arrived.
::::::::::::
::::::::::::
:::::::::::
::::::::::: And I thought Portland was generally regarded as very
::::::::::: cyclist friendly! If thats friendly I would hate to see
::::::::::: hostile.
:::::::::
::::::::: Surely you don't judge an entire city by the acts of a few
::::::::: stupid teens....
:::::::::
::::::::: Strange (or
::::::::::: maybe not) that race was mentioned in the article. I wonder
::::::::::: if it was a predominately black (African American or
::::::::::: whatever) part of town.
:::::::::
::::::::: Maybe it was just a random occurence. Who knows. Geez,
::::::::: people.
:::::::::
:::::::::
::::::::
:::::::: And MAYBE the black girls attacked two white women because they
:::::::: were white, and did so while calling them racial slurs. Geez,
:::::::: Roger.
::::::
:::::: Given that you nor I were there, we'll never know. For all you
:::::: know, one of the women on bike could have said something to
:::::: incite them.
:::::
::::: Nothing they could have said(and they insist they said nothing)
::::: justifies a BEATING. What kind of bull is that, Roger? Even if the
::::: two cyclists were n-word spouting skinheads, no words justify a
::::: beating. Why are you so unwilling to believe this is what it
::::: obviously is---a racial attack? Unbelievable.
:::
::: Who said anything at all about the attack being justified? Are you
::: truly this stupid? I don't think it was justified in any manner
::: whatsoever. However, I'm not so willing to believe as you are, that
::: it was racially motivated. Perhaps that's the "easy" answer, but so
::: what? That doesn't make it so.
:::
::: Obviously, you have some issues.
::
:: Once you said---"For all you know, one of the women on bike could
:: have said something to incite them."--you were looking for
:: justification. You have some issues, I think. A witness said that
:: racial slurs were said during the attack, the victims and attackers
:: were of different races---what do you THINK? Unreal. I seriously
:: doubt you would be so easy going if the races in this case were
:: reversed. It's a racist attack, even if it didn't START that way it
:: became one.

You only label it this way because for you race is the only issue here of
importance. I'm not saying the attack wasn't racially motivated, I'm saying
that you don't know that it was. I'm also not looking for any
justification, because there isn't any. However, something did set them off,
and we'll never know since we weren't there. The easy thing to do is to
claim, with so little real proof, that this had anything to do with race.
Frankly, I'm surprised those two cyclist let them get so close.

If they weren't attacked merely because they were white, then it's simply
not a racist attack, no matter what you say.

[Roger Zoul]

Bill Baka wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::: Right. Perhaps the kids were gang members trying to earn some
::: respect.
:::
:::
:: Uh-huh.
:: They proved that 3 black guys could beat up 2 white girls.
They were girls....not guys.

:: Do girly-men get repect for that kind of thing?
:: Bill Baka

[nash]

"Roger Zoul" > wrote in message
...
> Bill Baka wrote:
> :: Roger Zoul wrote:
> ::: Right. Perhaps the kids were gang members trying to earn some
> ::: respect.
> :::
> :::
> :: Uh-huh.
> :: They proved that 3 black guys could beat up 2 white girls.
> They were girls....not guys.
>
> :: Do girly-men get repect for that kind of thing?
> :: Bill Baka
You might say they attacked 2 cyclists because they hate bike riders.
I get yelled at for being on the street where I am not suppose to be instead
of the sidewalk now and then. Either they gave up or I just do not hear
them anymore.
Pitbull mentality really. Swarming king of thing. More girl gangs now.
Maybe it was intiation night for someone.

take care y'all

[Mark Hickey]

Stephen Harding > wrote:

>Bill Baka wrote:
>
>> half the price. I've had to train (and once fire) guys with Ph.d.s who
>> really almost did not know which end of a screwdriver to hold. It would
>
>PhD's making use of screwdrivers???
>
>What sort of jobs were they doing?

I certainly hope the MD who replaced my wife's ACL knew how to use a
screwdriver (there being about half a dozen titanium - of course -
screws that initially held the whole knee together).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

[Bill Sornson]

Random Waftings Of Bunker Blasts wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 17:34:07 -0800, "Bill Sornson" >
> said:
>
>> (I pointed this out in my first reply BUT YOU DELETED IT.
>> Telling.)
>>
>> Strange that you'd hide behind an anonymous user name yet spam your
>> books (including the "recommended" link LOL ) in every single post.

> Now you're really making yourself sound like a loon.

Wow. You're insipid as well as stupid.

Case rested.

[Sir Ridesalot]

Bill Baka wrote:
> Roger Zoul wrote:
> > Right. Perhaps the kids were gang members trying to earn some respect.
> >
> >
> Uh-huh.
> They proved that 3 black guys could beat up 2 white girls.
> Do girly-men get repect for that kind of thing?
> Bill Baka

Ah Bill, no men white or black were involved. The article states:

"The cyclists said the teen girls were standing in the bike
lane..." rest is snipped

That means three females beat up two females so there were not any
girly-men loking for respect.

It is always possible that this may have been a result of an earlier
incident or incidents. None of us was there so we will never know.

Peter

[Chicago Paddling-Fishing]

Gooserider > wrote:
<snip>
: That doesn't matter. Once you're beating someone while calling them
<snip>

Not really, I believe they go by the original motive for the attack... We
had a incident in Chicago where 3 kids were out looking to steal a bike not
that long ago...

http://cbs2chicago.com/topstories/local_story_202072749.html

'... Micha Eatman, 17, and two unnamed 16-year-olds were charged Tuesday
with robbery and aggravated battery in connection with a Sunday afternoon
beating that left eighth-grader Ryan Rusch unconscious with severe head
injuries.

Prosecutors had considered charging the teens, who are black, with hate
crimes after one of them said Ryan was attacked because he was a "goofy
white kid."

Milan said the spirit of the hate crime laws is to increase misdemeanors
to felonies.

"Because we've changed the charges to attempted murder, there's no reason
to do it," Milan told the 150 people who crammed into a gymnasium.

[Ben Pfaff]

Chicago Paddling-Fishing > writes:

> I drove off and stopped on the median a few blocks away to
> survey damage and as I did a police car drove up and I told him
> what happened and he said the kids had been breaking car
> windows all day...

You must have terrible police if they let teenagers out there
break car windows all day without doing anything to stop them.
--
Ben Pfaff
email:
web: http://benpfaff.org

[Stephen Harding]

Mark Hickey wrote:
> Stephen Harding > wrote:
>
>>Bill Baka wrote:
>>
>>>half the price. I've had to train (and once fire) guys with Ph.d.s who
>>>really almost did not know which end of a screwdriver to hold. It would
>>
>>PhD's making use of screwdrivers???
>>
>>What sort of jobs were they doing?
>
>
> I certainly hope the MD who replaced my wife's ACL knew how to use a
> screwdriver (there being about half a dozen titanium - of course -
> screws that initially held the whole knee together).

Well certainly in the "MD" context of "PhD" one might not
be surprised at good tool use skills.

When it comes to bone reconstruction, never mind the screw
driver! It's the *power tools* that provide the thrill!


SMH

[Stephen Harding]

Chicago Paddling-Fishing wrote:

> Prosecutors had considered charging the teens, who are black, with hate
> crimes after one of them said Ryan was attacked because he was a "goofy
> white kid."
>
> Milan said the spirit of the hate crime laws is to increase misdemeanors
> to felonies.

I have to say I think the "hate crime" laws are ridiculous.

Apparently it's worse to beat someone up while hurling
racial insults than it is to beat someone up because you
want their money.


SMH

[Gooserider]

"Stephen Harding" > wrote in message
news:Hqtrh.8837$Wz.7307@trndny06...
> Chicago Paddling-Fishing wrote:
>
>> Prosecutors had considered charging the teens, who are black, with hate
>> crimes after one of them said Ryan was attacked because he was a "goofy
>> white kid."
>>
>> Milan said the spirit of the hate crime laws is to increase misdemeanors
>> to felonies.
>
> I have to say I think the "hate crime" laws are ridiculous.
>
> Apparently it's worse to beat someone up while hurling
> racial insults than it is to beat someone up because you
> want their money.
>
>

I also think they're ridiculous, but if they are going to be enforced they
MUST be enforced equally. It's not OK to only enforce them when a member of
a minority class is a victim, but not when white people are.

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
Mark Hickey > writes:
> (Tom Keats) wrote:
>
>>So I have the feeling these victims may have been
>>picked-on because they were /perceived/ as "rich chicks"
>>with fancy, expensive bikes, sticking their /perceived/
>>Conspicuous Consumerism in other people's faces.
>>
>>Or maybe the perps thought the cyclists were gay,
>>and it's a case of [misguided] gay-bashing?
>>
>>I dunno.
>>
>>But as a life-long city boy, I do know when I'm
>>confrontin'. And I know when to back-off.
>>
>>I guess these ladies didn't.
>
> Would you say the same about if the victims had been black and a group
> of affluent white girls had attacked them because of their hip-hop
> dress and attitude? If only they had "backed off"...
>
> Exactly how DO you "back off" when your "insult" is being white and
> riding a bike? Personally, I'm not quite sure how to do that. I've
> ridden thousands of miles through predominantly black neighborhoods
> and never realized that I needed to "back off".

My mind's eye pictures the account in question as
a group of bullies challenging any oncoming potential
victims, by blocking their path. I wouldn't be
surprised if the oncoming cyclists unwittingly
answered their challenge by being unwilling to
deviate from the bike lane, and all hell
subsequently broke loose.

It's a mistake to ascribe bullying as an intrinsic
trait to any "race", culture or ethnicity. I note
you verify that yourself when you say: "I've ridden
thousands of miles through predominantly black
neighborhoods and never realized that I needed to
"back off"."

As for me, I've never ridden through a predominantly
black neighbourhood. But I have ridden as much as
you through predominantly working-class, mixed
industrial/commercial/residential neighbourhoods
with an ethnic blend of immigrants, post-WWII/Cold War
refugees, colonists, indigenous people, and others.
I bet your "predominantly black" neighbourhoods are
equally prone to bullyism as my blended neighbourhoods.

Because it's not about "race," or culture, or ethnicity.
It's about what makes individual punks' minds tick.

My gut instinct tells me these cyclists were
arbitrarily ambushed. The Obvious Ambush is one
of the gregarious bullies' favourite tactics; it's
terroristic in nature. You can either go through,
or go around. Whichever you choose, they "win".
It's generally better to go around (or, to "back off.")
So, hell, why not just accuse 'em of terrorism and send
'em off to Guantanemo?

That one witness uncorroboratedly states hearing /a/
(single) "racial" slur is simply not enough to pin this
incident on "racism" -- that's just too much of a stretch.
But it smacks of just plain ol' bullying, by just plain
ol' People.


cheers, & there's no such thing as "race" among homo sapiens,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
"Roger Zoul" > writes:

> I tell you what....I'm surprised the ladies on bikes let them get so close.

I think the punkettes were just standing there,
and it was the ladies on bikes who got close.

> It's hard to know the circumstances, but if I were riding and saw them
> threatening kids ahead in the bike lane, I'd have either turned around or
> swung wide with speed.

Same here, more or less.

> Could be the problem started with the kids standing
> in the bike lane and the cyclists trying to use that lane too.

I still intuitively "feel" the kids were /daring/
anybody else in the bike lane. Bullying doesn't
need external triggers. It's internally triggered.
That's what makes it bullying -- arbitrarily picking-on
anyone available. The cyclists did nothing wrong.
They just rode into a trap they didn't perceive.

As for "where the problem started": maybe the problem started
with the kids' upbringings. I know that sounds like glib
Liberal crap, but gee whiz -- when kids aren't taught values,
or respect for their fellow people (or themselves,) or creativity,
or appreciation, or constructiveness, or acceptance -- we're
creating horrible monsters for our posterity, adopting stupid
notions about the value of humanity.

Then we've got to develop a prison industry to deal with
the horrible monsters we create. Because /we/ don't have
enough values, or respect for our fellow people (or ourselves,)
or creativity, or appreciation, or constructiveness, or
acceptance, to think-up anything better.

I guess if we were better, then /We/ would be better.

I'm tryin' to do my part. Sometimes I don't do so good.
Sometimes I do. But I'm still working at it.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[nash]

"Tom Keats" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Roger Zoul" > writes:
>
>> I tell you what....I'm surprised the ladies on bikes let them get so
>> close.
>
> I think the punkettes were just standing there,
> and it was the ladies on bikes who got close.
>
>> It's hard to know the circumstances, but if I were riding and saw them
>> threatening kids ahead in the bike lane, I'd have either turned around or
>> swung wide with speed.
>
> Same here, more or less.
>
>> Could be the problem started with the kids standing
>> in the bike lane and the cyclists trying to use that lane too.
>
> I still intuitively "feel" the kids were /daring/
> anybody else in the bike lane. Bullying doesn't
> need external triggers. It's internally triggered.
> That's what makes it bullying -- arbitrarily picking-on
> anyone available. The cyclists did nothing wrong.
> They just rode into a trap they didn't perceive.
>
> As for "where the problem started": maybe the problem started
> with the kids' upbringings. I know that sounds like glib
> Liberal crap, but gee whiz -- when kids aren't taught values,
> or respect for their fellow people (or themselves,) or creativity,
> or appreciation, or constructiveness, or acceptance -- we're
> creating horrible monsters for our posterity, adopting stupid
> notions about the value of humanity.
>
> Then we've got to develop a prison industry to deal with
> the horrible monsters we create. Because /we/ don't have
> enough values, or respect for our fellow people (or ourselves,)
> or creativity, or appreciation, or constructiveness, or
> acceptance, to think-up anything better.
>
> I guess if we were better, then /We/ would be better.
>
> I'm tryin' to do my part. Sometimes I don't do so good.
> Sometimes I do. But I'm still working at it.
>
>
> cheers,
> Tom
>
> --
> Nothing is safe from me.
> Above address is just a spam midden.
> I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

You practicing to be the next Dalai Lama? :)

[Tom Keats]

In article <7PErh.681535$5R2.370991@pd7urf3no>,
"nash" > writes:

>> I guess if we were better, then /We/ would be better.
>>
>> I'm tryin' to do my part. Sometimes I don't do so good.
>> Sometimes I do. But I'm still working at it.

> You practicing to be the next Dalai Lama? :)

No. Just a better "me".

Maybe cycling does that to us.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Tom Keats]

In article <Hqtrh.8837$Wz.7307@trndny06>,
Stephen Harding > writes:
> Chicago Paddling-Fishing wrote:
>
>> Prosecutors had considered charging the teens, who are black, with hate
>> crimes after one of them said Ryan was attacked because he was a "goofy
>> white kid."
>>
>> Milan said the spirit of the hate crime laws is to increase misdemeanors
>> to felonies.
>
> I have to say I think the "hate crime" laws are ridiculous.

As I understand it, "hate crime"/anti-hate laws were drawn-up
to deal with KKK rabble disturbing peaceful neighbourhoods,
incitors publishing & distributing propaganda with intent
to stir-up hateful passions, vandals destructively targeting
and desecrating places of worship & religion-specific cemeteries,
and violent gay-bashers.

I don't think that's ridiculous at all.

What /is/ ridiculous is to invoke those laws at
the drop of a hat.

It's almost as ridiculous as to cry "racism" at the
merest suggestion of a single, anti-[insert label here]
epiphet possibly being uttered, such as in the
incident described and cited in the Original Post.


cheers,
Tom


--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Stephen Harding]

Tom Keats wrote:

> As I understand it, "hate crime"/anti-hate laws were drawn-up
> to deal with KKK rabble disturbing peaceful neighbourhoods,
> incitors publishing & distributing propaganda with intent
> to stir-up hateful passions, vandals destructively targeting
> and desecrating places of worship & religion-specific cemeteries,
> and violent gay-bashers.

I don't think so. AFAIK, the KKK has always been able to
march pretty much where it wants to as a basic freedom of
speech.

Currently, there is a low down sleazy group that goes to
funerals of soldiers killed in Iraq and demonstrate within
sight of the service itself with some pretty nasty signs.

So far, freedom of speech rights are protecting them from
any sort of prosecution.

I think they're more the result of a perhaps well intentioned
effort to penalize racist sentiment. How it is being used
as far as I've seen is ridiculous and may actually be promoting
racist thinking to some degree, because I too have noticed
that it always seems to be applied against Whites by a
victimized minority, whereas minority on white crime is just
considered crime.

Haven't seen any real statistics on it though. I do know
most Black crime is directed hugely towards fellow Blacks,
not Whites (which is natural since crime is largely a local
thing).


SMH

[Stephen Harding]

Tom Keats wrote:

> cheers, & there's no such thing as "race" among homo sapiens,

If Homo sapiens thinks there is, there is!

If there is no such thing as race, then how can there be
such a thing as racism?

There is at least 200 years of American history that says
there *is* racism, so there must be race.

And there is plenty of the same from places outside of
the US as well, over a much longer period of time than
the US has existed.


SMH

[nash]

"Stephen Harding" > wrote in message
news:gTLrh.8921$Wz.8636@trndny06...
> Tom Keats wrote:
>
>> cheers, & there's no such thing as "race" among homo sapiens,
>
> If Homo sapiens thinks there is, there is!
>
> If there is no such thing as race, then how can there be
> such a thing as racism?
>
> There is at least 200 years of American history that says
> there *is* racism, so there must be race.
>
> And there is plenty of the same from places outside of
> the US as well, over a much longer period of time than
> the US has existed.
>
>
> SMH

Y'ur on the wrong track. He means homo-sapiens are one species.
Just like there are 1000 types of potatoes but whether you say potatoe or
potato they are all one thing. philosophical metaphor kind a ting.
right boss

[Stephen Harding]

nash wrote:

> "Stephen Harding" > wrote in message
>
>>Tom Keats wrote:
>>
>>>cheers, & there's no such thing as "race" among homo sapiens,
>>
>>If Homo sapiens thinks there is, there is!
>>
>>If there is no such thing as race, then how can there be
>>such a thing as racism?
>>
>>There is at least 200 years of American history that says
>>there *is* racism, so there must be race.
>>
>>And there is plenty of the same from places outside of
>>the US as well, over a much longer period of time than
>>the US has existed.
>
> Y'ur on the wrong track. He means homo-sapiens are one species.
> Just like there are 1000 types of potatoes but whether you say potatoe or
> potato they are all one thing. philosophical metaphor kind a ting.
> right boss

If it's a philosophical metaphor than it's largely an
irrelevant one.

Humanity isn't one happy field of potatoes and never
has been.

"Race" doesn't imply species or even sub-species, at
least in the biological world. I have no doubt racist
individuals might think it so though.


SMH

[Gooserider]

"Tom Keats" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
>
>
> cheers, & there's no such thing as "race" among homo sapiens,
> Tom
>
> --
>

That's as ludicrous as saying there's no such thing as "breed" among dogs.
Unless, of course, you think all dogs are the same, or that people have
somehow transcended being animals.

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
"Gooserider" > writes:
>
> "Tom Keats" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In article >,
>>
>>
>> cheers, & there's no such thing as "race" among homo sapiens,
>> Tom
>>
>> --
>>
>
> That's as ludicrous as saying there's no such thing as "breed" among dogs.
> Unless, of course, you think all dogs are the same, or that people have
> somehow transcended being animals.

Okay then, God Damn It, say: "breed" instead of
"race" when you're talking about people, and
see how far that gets ya.

Dogs have been (artificially and selectively)
bred to perform specific tasks at the whims and
becks & calls of their Owners. Is that the case
with People?

Cocker Spaniel/Gordon Setter crosses make the
best all-around upland bird-hunting dogs (IMHO.)

Border Collies are good herders.

St. Bernards & related breeds (e.g: Newfoundlands,
Belgian barge dogs, etc) desperately want to
please & protect their human masters.

So, since you equate the concept of "race" with
breeding -- which "breeds" of humans do you think
are best suited for what purposes?


cheers, & Rock On,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Tom Keats]

In article <gTLrh.8921$Wz.8636@trndny06>,
Stephen Harding > writes:
> Tom Keats wrote:
>
>> cheers, & there's no such thing as "race" among homo sapiens,
>
> If Homo sapiens thinks there is, there is!
>
> If there is no such thing as race, then how can there be
> such a thing as racism?
>
> There is at least 200 years of American history that says
> there *is* racism, so there must be race.

Phrenology used to exist, too.
Most of us grew out of that.

This is modern days. There's
lots of stuff for us to grow
out of.

200+ years of history sounds to me
like something from which to learn
and grow out of.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Gooserider]

"Tom Keats" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Gooserider" > writes:
>>
>> "Tom Keats" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> In article >,
>>>
>>>
>>> cheers, & there's no such thing as "race" among homo sapiens,
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>
>> That's as ludicrous as saying there's no such thing as "breed" among
>> dogs.
>> Unless, of course, you think all dogs are the same, or that people have
>> somehow transcended being animals.
>
> Okay then, God Damn It, say: "breed" instead of
> "race" when you're talking about people, and
> see how far that gets ya.
>
> Dogs have been (artificially and selectively)
> bred to perform specific tasks at the whims and
> becks & calls of their Owners. Is that the case
> with People?

Sort of, yes. People evolved into different races due to different
circumstances. Are all people the same? No. Are all races equally good at
all things? No. If so, the summer Olympics sprint competitions would be
filled with white people, and it's not. Races are different.

> Cocker Spaniel/Gordon Setter crosses make the
> best all-around upland bird-hunting dogs (IMHO.)
>
> Border Collies are good herders.
>
> St. Bernards & related breeds (e.g: Newfoundlands,
> Belgian barge dogs, etc) desperately want to
> please & protect their human masters.
>
> So, since you equate the concept of "race" with
> breeding -- which "breeds" of humans do you think
> are best suited for what purposes?
>

Gee, let's see-----

Are you REALLY going to say that races don't have activities at which they
are better than others? Have you seen the Olympics, or spelling bees, or
been to an engineering school?

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
"Gooserider" > writes:

>> Dogs have been (artificially and selectively)
>> bred to perform specific tasks at the whims and
>> becks & calls of their Owners. Is that the case
>> with People?
>
> Sort of, yes. People evolved into different races due to different
> circumstances. Are all people the same? No.

I believe we ... WE ... pretty much /are/ the same.

> Are all races equally good at
> all things? No.

Yes.

People are people. Brains are brains.
Hearts are hearts.

[snip]

> Gee, let's see-----
>
> Are you REALLY going to say that races don't have activities at which they
> are better than others?

Yup.

Wouldn't it be a cryin' shame if there was a South-African
Black person or Samoan or Mauri or Fijian Picasso/Einstein/
Menhuin/(Frank Lloyd) Wright who never got to live up to
their potential because Society determined they must go through
the motions of playing rugby in order to entertain other people?

> Have you seen the Olympics, or spelling bees, or
> been to an engineering school?

Nope.

I just live in the world, among my fellow people,
with whom I feel right at home.

You should come on up here to Vancouver. Meet people
and socialize. It's very easily done, here.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Gooserider]

"Tom Keats" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Gooserider" > writes:
>
>>> Dogs have been (artificially and selectively)
>>> bred to perform specific tasks at the whims and
>>> becks & calls of their Owners. Is that the case
>>> with People?
>>
>> Sort of, yes. People evolved into different races due to different
>> circumstances. Are all people the same? No.
>
> I believe we ... WE ... pretty much /are/ the same.

No we aren't. Any anthropologist can identify the race of a skull within
minutes.

>> Are all races equally good at
>> all things? No.
>
> Yes.

No, we aren't. That's why certain fields are dominated by certain races.

> People are people. Brains are brains.
> Hearts are hearts.
>
> [snip]
>
>> Gee, let's see-----
>>
>> Are you REALLY going to say that races don't have activities at which
>> they
>> are better than others?
>
> Yup.

You're way off. Why are there so many Indian engineers, doctors, and
mathematicians? Have you heard of the Native American tribes who were
superior iron workers? The Mexican Indians who excelled at distance running,
despite being heavy smokers and living unhealthy lifestyles? Why are Kenyans
dominant marathon runners, while Nordic people dominate powerlifting?
GENETICS.

> Wouldn't it be a cryin' shame if there was a South-African
> Black person or Samoan or Mauri or Fijian Picasso/Einstein/
> Menhuin/(Frank Lloyd) Wright who never got to live up to
> their potential because Society determined they must go through
> the motions of playing rugby in order to entertain other people?

Why were some races of people advanced enough to circumnavigate the globe,
while others TO THIS DAY live in dung huts and wear loincloths? All races
are not the same. Why is the median IQ of an African 75? Why do Asians
outscore every other race on IQ tests?

>> Have you seen the Olympics, or spelling bees, or
>> been to an engineering school?
>
> Nope.
>
> I just live in the world, among my fellow people,
> with whom I feel right at home.

You don't live in the real world.

> You should come on up here to Vancouver. Meet people
> and socialize. It's very easily done, here.


That's because you're all stoned. How is your drug gang problem?

http://www.ottawasun.com/News/ChronicPain/2006/06/05/1614842-sun.html

[Gooserider]

"Kevan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Gooserider" > wrote:
>
>> You don't live in the real world.
>
> Your "science" is pretty damn bad.
>
>
Coming from you, the most liberal and whacked out of PC twits, I will take
that as a compliment.

[[email protected]]

On 2007-01-20, Gooserider > wrote:
>
> Why were some races of people advanced enough to circumnavigate the globe,
> while others TO THIS DAY live in dung huts and wear loincloths? All races
> are not the same. Why is the median IQ of an African 75? Why do Asians
> outscore every other race on IQ tests?

Read _Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel_ and see if your opinion changes.

Hint: location, location, location.

--

__o Kristian Zoerhoff
_'\(,_
(_)/ (_)

[[email protected]]

Tom Keats wrote:
>
> > Are you REALLY going to say that races don't have activities at which they
> > are better than others?
>
> Yup.
>
> Wouldn't it be a cryin' shame if there was a South-African
> Black person or Samoan or Mauri or Fijian Picasso/Einstein/
> Menhuin/(Frank Lloyd) Wright who never got to live up to
> their potential because Society determined they must go through
> the motions of playing rugby in order to entertain other people?

I feel sorriest for those poor Mbuti people who have been denied
careers in pro basketball.

- Frank Krygowski

[Gooserider]

> wrote in message
et...
> On 2007-01-20, Gooserider > wrote:
>>
>> Why were some races of people advanced enough to circumnavigate the
>> globe,
>> while others TO THIS DAY live in dung huts and wear loincloths? All races
>> are not the same. Why is the median IQ of an African 75? Why do Asians
>> outscore every other race on IQ tests?
>
> Read _Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel_ and see if your opinion changes.
>
> Hint: location, location, location.
>
>
I don't know what you're getting at. Elaborate, please. I believe that cold
weather rewards intelligence, as having inhospitable winters caused ancient
ancestors to learn to prepare. Those who were not smart enough or had
developed strong enough socities to do so died, and took their gene pool
with them. That's why places which get cold(Europe and Asia) developed
strong socities, excelled in science, architecture, math, and agriculture,
and places which were temperate year round(Africa, South and Central
America) didn't. The less intelligent genes didn't get weeded out, because
food was available year round.

[[email protected]]

On 2007-01-20, Gooserider > wrote:
>
> wrote in message
> et...
>> On 2007-01-20, Gooserider > wrote:
>>>
>>> Why were some races of people advanced enough to circumnavigate the
>>> globe,
>>> while others TO THIS DAY live in dung huts and wear loincloths? All races
>>> are not the same. Why is the median IQ of an African 75? Why do Asians
>>> outscore every other race on IQ tests?
>>
>> Read _Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel_ and see if your opinion changes.
>>
>> Hint: location, location, location.
>>
>>
> I don't know what you're getting at. Elaborate, please.

Eurasia had a massive confluence of domesticable grains and animals, and a
long east-west axis that allowed crops, animals, and ideas to freely flow
across the continent. Having vast swaths of land at roughly the same latitude
means they have roughly the same climate, meaning this sort of exchange is
rather easy (as these things go).

Africa lacks easily domesticable animals, and its crops couldn't survive the
tropics, leaving them confined to the Sahel region. South Africa could have
been a breadbasket if not for this, but would have to wait for Europeans to
arrive with wheat instead.

Australia lacked all of the above, and is mostly desert. It too would have to
wait for European crops.

New Guinea had agriculture, but confined to the massively fractured highlands.
No animals to domesticate, and free flow of ideas was blocked by the mountains.
Note that New Guinea is one of very few areas of the planet to never be truly
subjugated by Europeans, due to indigenous diseaes that grew in this culture.

The Americas were separated by the Darien swamps of Panama, meaning the Aztec
wheel and Inca llama never met. Maize was slow to be domesticated, putting
the Americas about 8,000 years behind Eurasia in terms of agriculture. The
Aztecs still put up a hell of a fight against Cortez, but were done in by horses
and smallpox.

Agriculture is key. Without it, you have no sedentary society, no surpluses
to feed artisans, politicians, or laborers. In short, no cities, no armies,
no civiliation as we know it. Eurasia had an 8,000 year head start over the
Americas, even more over areas like Australia. Africa and New Guinea were never
able to fully capitalize, due to lack of domestic animals.

Europe came to dominate over the Near East after climate change transformed the
the Fertile Crescent into (mostly) desert. China could have dominated, but the
early development of a single central government meant that any single bad
decision by the imperial court (like, say, burning their shipyards and
oceangoing fleet) had widespread effects. The semi-fractured political landscape
in Europe (caused partially by geography) prevented a bad idea from taking the
whole continent with it (n.b. Columbus failed to sell his ideas to Portugal, so
he went to Spain instead).

Oh, and sedentary societies probably *lower* intelligence, as entire classes are
fed on the backs of the farmers. Hunter-gatherers live and die by their
knowledge of local flora, fauna, and geography. No IQ test I'm aware of measures
survival skills like this.

And we've not even considered the germs that Eurasians picked up from their
herds: smallpox, influenza, etc.

Do read the book. It's a fascinating look at history, culture, and race.

--

__o Kristian Zoerhoff
_'\(,_
(_)/ (_)

[Tom Keats]

In article om>,
writes:
>
> Tom Keats wrote:
>>
>> > Are you REALLY going to say that races don't have activities at which they
>> > are better than others?
>>
>> Yup.
>>
>> Wouldn't it be a cryin' shame if there was a South-African
>> Black person or Samoan or Mauri or Fijian Picasso/Einstein/
>> Menhuin/(Frank Lloyd) Wright who never got to live up to
>> their potential because Society determined they must go through
>> the motions of playing rugby in order to entertain other people?
>
> I feel sorriest for those poor Mbuti people who have been denied
> careers in pro basketball.

It's bad when /anybody/ doesn't get even half a fightin'
chance to at least try out and show what they've got,
because they're being off-handedly dismissed from the get-go.

How sorry would you feel about an intelligent, compassionate
and articulate Mbuti woman who's denied an education & career
in medical research, or anthropology, or astrophysics, or
literature, or business, simply because of where she hails
from, and is considered to be "too primitive" or too "not
white" for such lofty goals?


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Gooserider]

"Tom Keats" > wrote in message
...
> In article om>,
> writes:
>>
>> Tom Keats wrote:
>>>
>>> > Are you REALLY going to say that races don't have activities at which
>>> > they
>>> > are better than others?
>>>
>>> Yup.
>>>
>>> Wouldn't it be a cryin' shame if there was a South-African
>>> Black person or Samoan or Mauri or Fijian Picasso/Einstein/
>>> Menhuin/(Frank Lloyd) Wright who never got to live up to
>>> their potential because Society determined they must go through
>>> the motions of playing rugby in order to entertain other people?
>>
>> I feel sorriest for those poor Mbuti people who have been denied
>> careers in pro basketball.
>
> It's bad when /anybody/ doesn't get even half a fightin'
> chance to at least try out and show what they've got,
> because they're being off-handedly dismissed from the get-go.
>
> How sorry would you feel about an intelligent, compassionate
> and articulate Mbuti woman who's denied an education & career
> in medical research, or anthropology, or astrophysics, or
> literature, or business, simply because of where she hails
> from, and is considered to be "too primitive" or too "not
> white" for such lofty goals?
>
Yes, Tom, you nailed it. The reason Africa is not far removed from the stone
age is because "they haven't been given a chance". Never mind the trillions
of dollars which have been poured into that continent throughout history.

[[email protected]]

Tom Keats wrote:
> In article om>,
> writes:
> >
> >
> > I feel sorriest for those poor Mbuti people who have been denied
> > careers in pro basketball.
>
> It's bad when /anybody/ doesn't get even half a fightin'
> chance to at least try out and show what they've got...
> because they're being off-handedly dismissed from the get-go.

.... Even if they're four feet, six inches tall? ;-)

> How sorry would you feel about an intelligent, compassionate
> and articulate Mbuti woman who's denied an education & career
> in medical research, or anthropology, or astrophysics, or
> literature, or business, simply because of where she hails
> from, and is considered to be "too primitive" or too "not
> white" for such lofty goals?

I'd feel bad. On the one hand, I think every individual should be
treated fairly.

On the other hand, I think it's silly to pretend there are _no_
differences between any groups of people.

Yes, the popular concept of "race" is faulty. For one thing, it's
dominated by skin color, and ignores much else. I recall the fury of a
chemistry professor I knew in the 1960s. He was a dark-skinned East
Indian, and he was treated very badly when traveling through the
American southeast.

However, knowing him, I wouldn't be surprised if part of his fury was
because he knew _he_ was "better than those black people." IOW, the
redneck racism probably offended him more because of his own racism.

Likewise, after living in rural Georgia for a while, I saw plenty of
truly stupid and offensive behavior by the "Good Ol' Boys." I feel it
would be silly to assume that the next tobacco chewing, Stars & Bars
flying, gunrack-equipped pickup driving Georgia boy of Scots-Irish
descent would be perfectly charitable to my black friends.

There are cultural differences, and there are genetic differences,
between people around the globe. They're not typically binary
differences; they're more like overlapping normal curves.

But yes, we should be fair in our dealings with any individual.

- Frank Krygowski

[Stephen Harding]

Tom Keats wrote:

> How sorry would you feel about an intelligent, compassionate
> and articulate Mbuti woman who's denied an education & career
> in medical research, or anthropology, or astrophysics, or
> literature, or business, simply because of where she hails
> from, and is considered to be "too primitive" or too "not
> white" for such lofty goals?

I wonder what college/university in the US would not admit
someone for being too "not white"?


SMH

[Pat Lamb]

Stephen Harding wrote:
> Tom Keats wrote:
>
>> How sorry would you feel about an intelligent, compassionate
>> and articulate Mbuti woman who's denied an education & career
>> in medical research, or anthropology, or astrophysics, or
>> literature, or business, simply because of where she hails
>> from, and is considered to be "too primitive" or too "not
>> white" for such lofty goals?
>
> I wonder what college/university in the US would not admit
> someone for being too "not white"?

Don't know, but my (white) brother got a minority scholarship while
attending a predominantly black school!

Pat