Disc Brakes on Touring Bikes

[Pheonix Ribbon]

I am in the process of building a touring bike that will last me the
ages. I have found my frame (www.vanguard.com). It has housings for
both disc and v-brakes. Now, I know that it is best to stick to simple
brakes when out in the middle of nowhere, and I shall be using
v-brakes when I'm touring down Europe. But would still like to knwo if
it is possible to find/build-easily a drop handle lever that will be
able to operate a set of disc brakes.

Any ideas?

As we are on subject, if anyone can recommend a good set of
fully-loaded touring forks, then please divulge.

Many thanks,

Lief

[cyclist101]

Pheonix Ribbon wrote:
> I am in the process of building a touring bike that will last me the
> ages. I have found my frame (www.vanguard.com). It has housings for

That link is for Vanguard Mutual Funds. I already knew they have great
index funds, but I didn't know they also sell frames. :-)

> both disc and v-brakes. Now, I know that it is best to stick to simple
> brakes when out in the middle of nowhere, and I shall be using
> v-brakes when I'm touring down Europe. But would still like to knwo if
> it is possible to find/build-easily a drop handle lever that will be
> able to operate a set of disc brakes.
>
> Any ideas?

I only use cantilevers on my touring bike. I wouldn't trust v-brakes
fully loaded for distances. Maybe others would, but I wouldn't.

> As we are on subject, if anyone can recommend a good set of
> fully-loaded touring forks, then please divulge.

Contact a local frame-builder or wherever you got your frame. Make sure
you get CrMo if you're going fully-loaded.

[Michael Dart]

"Pheonix Ribbon" > wrote in message
om...
> I am in the process of building a touring bike that will last me the
> ages. I have found my frame (www.vanguard.com). It has housings for
> both disc and v-brakes. Now, I know that it is best to stick to simple
> brakes when out in the middle of nowhere, and I shall be using
> v-brakes when I'm touring down Europe. But would still like to knwo if
> it is possible to find/build-easily a drop handle lever that will be
> able to operate a set of disc brakes.
>
> Any ideas?

Avid Mechanical ball bearing disc brakes are then next best thing to
hydraulic discs and better than V's. They make a version for road bikes.
They are quite simple and probably easier to set up and maintain than V's or
Canti's. I have hydraulic disc brakes on all my mountain bikes and will
never go back to V's except for maybe a beach cruiser.


>
> As we are on subject, if anyone can recommend a good set of
> fully-loaded touring forks, then please divulge.
>
Sorry can't help there.

Mike

[Jon Bond]

"Pheonix Ribbon" > wrote in message
om...
> I am in the process of building a touring bike that will last me the
> ages. I have found my frame (www.vanguard.com). It has housings for
> both disc and v-brakes. Now, I know that it is best to stick to simple
> brakes when out in the middle of nowhere, and I shall be using
> v-brakes when I'm touring down Europe. But would still like to knwo if
> it is possible to find/build-easily a drop handle lever that will be
> able to operate a set of disc brakes.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> As we are on subject, if anyone can recommend a good set of
> fully-loaded touring forks, then please divulge.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Lief

Avid has cable actuated disc brakes that are designed for road bikes - which
includes taking into account normal roadie lever cable pull. Not hydraulic,
but cables are easy to find, whereas Shimano Mineral Oil or DOT 5.1 can be a
bit difficult to find in, say, Cambodia. Just bring an extra set of pads or
two, just in case - but they last a pretty damn long time.

Jon Bond

[Gearóid Ó Laoi, Garry Lee]

> I only use cantilevers on my touring bike. I wouldn't trust v-brakes
> fully loaded for distances. Maybe others would, but I wouldn't.

I would.
I've toured with Vs with no problem.
Usually tour with cantilever.
I've never had any problem with V-brakes and have had plenty with
cantilevers.

[gmaker]

Pheonix Ribbon wrote:

> I am in the process of building a touring bike that will last me the
> ages. I have found my frame (www.vanguard.com). It has housings for
> both disc and v-brakes. Now, I know that it is best to stick to simple
> brakes when out in the middle of nowhere, and I shall be using
> v-brakes when I'm touring down Europe. But would still like to knwo if
> it is possible to find/build-easily a drop handle lever that will be
> able to operate a set of disc brakes.

I was going to do this and bought the pieces.
However I discovered disk stuff is rugged and incredibly heavy.
Just one caliper Hayes MX-1 is 250 grams.
When touring I would rather this weight on board be something more useful
so will not be fitting them.

[M-Gineering import & framebouw]

gmaker wrote:
>
> Pheonix Ribbon wrote:
>
> > I am in the process of building a touring bike that will last me the
> > ages. I have found my frame (www.vanguard.com). It has housings for
> > both disc and v-brakes. Now, I know that it is best to stick to simple
> > brakes when out in the middle of nowhere, and I shall be using
> > v-brakes when I'm touring down Europe. But would still like to knwo if
> > it is possible to find/build-easily a drop handle lever that will be
> > able to operate a set of disc brakes.
>
> I was going to do this and bought the pieces.
> However I discovered disk stuff is rugged and incredibly heavy.
> Just one caliper Hayes MX-1 is 250 grams.
> When touring I would rather this weight on board be something more useful
> so will not be fitting them.

diacompe 287V levers work with V-brakes, so probably with a V-brake
lever compatible mechanical diskbrake too.
--
Marten

[Steve Shapiro]

(Pheonix Ribbon) wrote in message >...
> I am in the process of building a touring bike that will last me the
> ages. I have found my frame (www.vanguard.com). It has housings for
> both disc and v-brakes. Now, I know that it is best to stick to simple
> brakes when out in the middle of nowhere, and I shall be using
> v-brakes when I'm touring down Europe. But would still like to knwo if
> it is possible to find/build-easily a drop handle lever that will be
> able to operate a set of disc brakes.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> As we are on subject, if anyone can recommend a good set of
> fully-loaded touring forks, then please divulge.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Lief

All but the very cheapest V-brakes are easy to set up and very
reliable. I use the Avid Single Digit 7 model now (the 5 or 3 are
just fine also). I've also used low cost Taiwanese V brakes that were
effective and easy to work with, but not so nicely finished. The key
to an easy set-up is that the brakes have an adjusting screw on each
arm. Also, it is important to note that you will have to match the
levers to the calipers. Cantis use the same levers as side pulls.
These levers have a greater mechanical advantage and pull less cable
per unit of lever motion then do V-brake levers. So, if you are using
brifters, then consider cantis or mini V-brakes. Also, there are
levers for drop bars that will work with standard V-brakes. Check
with http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/hub.html for these. If you
are using flat bars, then any modern mountain bike lever will work
with V-brakes.

Unless you are bound for mud or snow, using disk brakes seems to be of
questionable advantage. Mechanical and hydraulic versions are heavy,
costly, and may cause the front wheel to loosen while riding. Please
read the threads concerning front wheel loosening issues vs. disk
brakes in this newsgroup before you decide. If you choose to use disk
brakes, you would want to have a fork and frame with the appropriate
mounting features. Of course, you will also need wheels with disk
hubs. It does start to add up to real $$$ and you've got to ask
yourself why?

Fork recommendations: I've been using an inexpensive Tange chrome
molly fork. It cost me under $50.00, has V-brake bosses and one
eyelet located on each dropout. It has been trouble free for the one
season I've used it. I do not tour, but I do weigh 215 lbs., so the
fork sees a total of 240 lbs. (me plus the bike) every day.

Steve Shapiro

[Phillip Stevens]

I swapped a Magura HS-66 rim hydraulic (drop levers) on my Touring bike for
an Avid mechanical on the front only (to get SDI rear changing).

Result: at 160mm disk the result was worse than the Magura hydraulic rim
system. But having become addicted to SDI, I persisted with a 185mm
"extreme" disk. Now the thing stops on a dime. Compare steep drop-offs where
friends on road bikes (Dura-ace, etc) get cramps in both hands, I've two
finger braking (I don't use the rear except when stopping at road
furniture).

If you're touring fully loaded, take a lot of spare pads (small but
expensive). In Hong Kong I went through a set every 4 to 6 weeks. Now I'm in
the UK, brakes are rarely needed. But touring fully loaded will eat pads for
breakfast.

And BTW non-original pads won't fit. There is an auxiliary spacer spring
that fits around the pad material tightly. Avid shapes their material to
allow it to fit. Non-originals were caught by 2001 model magnetic mounting
example and have not "fitted" their material exactly, resulting in the
spacer spring not fitting, in my experience.

Phillip

"Jon Bond" > wrote in message
...
> "Pheonix Ribbon" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I am in the process of building a touring bike that will last me the
> > ages. I have found my frame (www.vanguard.com). It has housings for
> > both disc and v-brakes. Now, I know that it is best to stick to simple
> > brakes when out in the middle of nowhere, and I shall be using
> > v-brakes when I'm touring down Europe. But would still like to knwo if
> > it is possible to find/build-easily a drop handle lever that will be
> > able to operate a set of disc brakes.
> >
> > Any ideas?
> >
> > As we are on subject, if anyone can recommend a good set of
> > fully-loaded touring forks, then please divulge.
> >
> > Many thanks,
> >
> > Lief
>
> Avid has cable actuated disc brakes that are designed for road bikes -
which
> includes taking into account normal roadie lever cable pull. Not
hydraulic,
> but cables are easy to find, whereas Shimano Mineral Oil or DOT 5.1 can be
a
> bit difficult to find in, say, Cambodia. Just bring an extra set of pads
or
> two, just in case - but they last a pretty damn long time.
>
> Jon Bond
>
>

[asqui]

Gearóid Ó Laoi, Garry Lee wrote:
>> I only use cantilevers on my touring bike. I wouldn't trust v-brakes
>> fully loaded for distances. Maybe others would, but I wouldn't.
>
> I would.
> I've toured with Vs with no problem.
> Usually tour with cantilever.
> I've never had any problem with V-brakes and have had plenty with
> cantilevers.

I have Tektro cantilever (wide profile, by Sheldon's terminology
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html) brakes on my Dawes
Horizon. Compared to the Weinmann "U-style" brakes I had on my 15+ year old
Eddy Merckx, which I gather are also a type of cantilever, these are pretty
poor. They feel spongy and unresponsive, even after fully adjusted.

Though the Weinmanns are poorer still in comparison to the "V-style" brakes
on my friend's mountain bike -- let's just say I now believe all his praise
of V-Brakes and "I can pull an endo with one finger" ranting. But perhaps
that is a little extreme... I don't need something so responsive that I'm
going to wash out the front if a fly lands on my finger while I'm braking,
but I did like the brake response on the Eddy. (His girlfriend was riding
with me the other day and she locked up the rear pretty severely coming up
to some traffic lights, but she is an inexperienced rider.)

Dani

[Rick Warner]

(Pheonix Ribbon) wrote in message >...
> I am in the process of building a touring bike that will last me the
> ages. I have found my frame (www.vanguard.com). It has housings for
> both disc and v-brakes. Now, I know that it is best to stick to simple
> brakes when out in the middle of nowhere, and I shall be using
> v-brakes when I'm touring down Europe. But would still like to knwo if
> it is possible to find/build-easily a drop handle lever that will be
> able to operate a set of disc brakes.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> As we are on subject, if anyone can recommend a good set of
> fully-loaded touring forks, then please divulge.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Lief

Everybody seems to be concentrating on the mechanics of the brakes,
levers, etc., but no one has mentioned one issue with discs and touring
bikes: interference with racks! Not an impossible combination, but the
standard mount will interfere with racks. Things gotta be moved to make
it all work.

- rick

[Todd Kuzma]

There are a few concerns with disk brakes on touring bikes.
First, to accomodate the rotor, the hub flange spacing
must be narrower. This will result in a wheel which is not
as strong. Additionally, the front wheel will have dish.

Second, the frame and fork need to be beefy to handle the
torque from the brake. On the rear this just means extra
weight. However, on the front, it also means a very stiff
fork which will adversely affect ride quality.

Third, it is difficult, but not impossible, to fit racks
around many disk calipers.

Fourth, there is evidence to suggest that a front disk brake
can force a wheel from the dropouts unless there is some
sort of secondary retention device (like lawyer lips) or
other provision to prevent this.

Fifth, there has also been some evidence that rim brakes can
generate more sustained braking power and dissipate more
heat prior to failure than most disk brakes. Rim brakes
fail from excessive heat by blowing a tire off of the rim.
Disk brakes fail frome excessive heat in a variety of ways:
boiling fluid, warped rotors, melted plastic parts, glazed
pads, etc. Generally speaking, rim brakes will tolerate a
higher level of heat than most disk brakes. The best disk
brakes in this regard are those with heavy, large diameter
rotors. These can be superior to rim brakes in heat
dissipation.

The main advantage of disks in mountain biking is
performance in muddy conditions when rim brakes would be
packed with mud. This generally isn't an issue for touring
bikes (unless off-road touring). Both rim and disk brakes
need to clear the braking surface of water before effective
braking can begin so there is no clear advantage for either
in the rain.

Todd Kuzma
Heron Bicycles
Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery
LaSalle, Il 815-223-1776
http://www.heronbicycles.com
http://www.tullios.com

[Jose Rizal]

Todd Kuzma:

> Fifth, there has also been some evidence that rim brakes can
> generate more sustained braking power and dissipate more
> heat prior to failure than most disk brakes. Rim brakes
> fail from excessive heat by blowing a tire off of the rim.
> Disk brakes fail frome excessive heat in a variety of ways:
> boiling fluid, warped rotors, melted plastic parts, glazed
> pads, etc. Generally speaking, rim brakes will tolerate a
> higher level of heat than most disk brakes.

Blowing a tire off a rim is a catastrophic failure with rim brakes, not
good when going down an incline, whereas a warped disk rotor will not
have as dramatic an effect. A disk brake system is better in this
respect.

[(Pete Cresswell)]

RE/
>And BTW non-original pads won't fit. There is an auxiliary spacer spring
>that fits around the pad material tightly. Avid shapes their material to
>allow it to fit. Non-originals were caught by 2001 model magnetic mounting
>example and have not "fitted" their material exactly, resulting in the
>spacer spring not fitting, in my experience.

Also, if you're using the Avids, take a couple of spare springs along with those
spare sets of pads.

I had one set of pads just fall out of the calipers on me - leaving behind a
mangled spring. To be fair to Avid, I suspect I brought it on by incorrectly
inserting the rear wheel once (the rotor probably caught the little tab that
protrudes from the spring clip)...but it *did* happen.....

Also, make sure you trim the cable ends close. One guy posted either here or in
the MTB group that a friend did an endo at speed as the tail of the brake wire
somehow got caught in the caliper body.
-----------------------
PeteCresswell

[Chalo]

"Michael Dart" > wrote:

> Avid Mechanical ball bearing disc brakes are then next best thing to
> hydraulic discs and better than V's.

Speaking as a 360 lb. rider who can use braking power and not just
braking feel, and who's tried most every kind of brake, the order of
those three brakes is reversed from a max. power standpoint.
Cantilevers and Vs can stop harder, longer. And Avid mechanical
brakes have the benefit of being tunable (through choice and/or
adjustment of the lever) with regard to mechanical advantage.

Hydraulic discs offer no leverage adjustment, and they become
overheated just as easily as mechanical discs in an equivalent rotor
size. People who don't actually use all their available braking power
become impressed with the lever response of hydraulic discs and assume
that their greater sensitivity to lever pressure means that they are
more powerful than other brakes. They are not.

> They make a version for road bikes.
> They are quite simple and probably easier to set up and maintain than V's or
> Canti's.

Easier to set up well than cantis, maybe. Easier than V-brakes? No
way. If you have to seal your own hoses and bleed the system (such as
when installing almost any unusual setup), any mechanical brake has
simpler setup.

One point the OP should note is that disc brakes make for a dished,
weak front wheel. They reduce the amount of dish in the rear wheel,
though, which is good. If the rear rack mounting issues can be worked
out with a rear disc in place, then this might be an OK place to use a
disc on a touring bike. You're better off with a canti brake, and a
dishless wheel, in the front.

Chalo Colina

[Chalo]

"Michael Dart" > wrote:

> Avid Mechanical ball bearing disc brakes are then next best thing to
> hydraulic discs and better than V's.

Speaking as a 360 lb. rider who can use braking power and not just
braking feel, and who's tried most every kind of brake, the order of
those three brakes is reversed from a max. power standpoint.
Cantilevers and Vs can stop harder, longer. And Avid mechanical
brakes have the benefit of being tunable (through choice and/or
adjustment of the lever) with regard to mechanical advantage.

Hydraulic discs offer no leverage adjustment, and they become
overheated just as easily as mechanical discs in an equivalent rotor
size. People who don't actually use all their available braking power
become impressed with the lever response of hydraulic discs and assume
that their greater sensitivity to lever pressure means that they are
more powerful than other brakes. They are not.

> They make a version for road bikes.
> They are quite simple and probably easier to set up and maintain than V's or
> Canti's.

Easier to set up well than cantis, maybe. Easier than V-brakes? No
way. If you have to seal your own hoses and bleed the system (such as
when installing almost any unusual setup), any mechanical brake has
simpler setup.

One point the OP should note is that disc brakes make for a dished,
weak front wheel. They reduce the amount of dish in the rear wheel,
though, which is good. If the rear rack mounting issues can be worked
out with a rear disc in place, then this might be an OK place to use a
disc on a touring bike. You're better off with a canti brake, and a
dishless wheel, in the front.

Chalo Colina

[Todd Kuzma]

Jose Rizal wrote:

> Blowing a tire off a rim is a catastrophic failure with rim brakes, not
> good when going down an incline, whereas a warped disk rotor will not
> have as dramatic an effect. A disk brake system is better in this
> respect.

That's true although losing your brakes ain't no picnic.
This reminds me of another issue. If you damage a rotor in
an accident, you will have to remove it to continue. Not a
big problem, but it has happened to mountain bikers.

Todd Kuzma

[James Annan]

Todd Kuzma > wrote in message >...

> Fourth, there is evidence to suggest that a front disk brake
> can force a wheel from the dropouts unless there is some
> sort of secondary retention device (like lawyer lips) or
> other provision to prevent this.

Four and a halfth, there is evidence to suggest that even if retention
lips are present, the skewer can still be loosened sufficiently for
wheel loss to result.

James

[Jeff Wills]

(Rick Warner) wrote in message >...
<snip>
>
> Everybody seems to be concentrating on the mechanics of the brakes,
> levers, etc., but no one has mentioned one issue with discs and touring
> bikes: interference with racks! Not an impossible combination, but the
> standard mount will interfere with racks. Things gotta be moved to make
> it all work.
>
> - rick

Old Man Mountain appears to have that solved:
http://www.oldmanmountain.com/cold_springs_rear_details.htm

Jeff

[Chalo]

Todd Kuzma > wrote:

> First, to accomodate the rotor, the hub flange spacing
> must be narrower. This will result in a wheel which is not
> as strong.

Actually, the resulting rear wheel may be less stiff laterally, but
can almost certainly be built stronger (more load capacity) with less
dish. Many tandem rear hubs have been built symmetrical or nearly
symmetrical for this reason, though it means that flange spacing will
be narrow.

I am not convinced that disc brakes have any advantages on a touring
bike, but in the rear at least, they will not compromise wheel
strength.

Chalo Colina