D-A chain noise (?) and correct chain length

[Derk]

Hi!

I hear an irritating noise when being out of the saddle and moving the bike
from left to right to accelerate by pulling on the steer while going up a
hill. I removed everything I can think of and put fat on it (wheels,
cranks, bolts, stem etc etc.)
I am beginning to think the chain itself is to blame. I have 2 questions:

1) Can a chain itself be the cause of irritating noise? (I once had a Connex
9S chain that did this after 500km's)

2) What is the best way to determine chain length?

TIA! Derk

[slartibartfast]

> I removed everything I can think of and put fat on it (wheels,
> cranks, bolts, stem etc etc.)

I'm hoping "fat" is your slang for grease or lube. A freind of mine used "I
cant believe it's not butter" for repacking the bearings in his rear wheel
once. interesting mess to clean up.

> 2) What is the best way to determine chain length?

loop the chain around the big chainring and the big cog on the rear
bypassing the derailiure, match the ends up and add one link.

[Derk]

slartibartfast wrote:

> I'm hoping "fat" is your slang for grease or lube.
As soon as I typed it I realized the English word is Grease. The Dutch word
for it is "vet", which is similar to the English "fat". I meant grease,
though.

> loop the chain around the big chainring and the big cog on the rear
> bypassing the derailiure, match the ends up and add one link.
Thanks!, Derk

[Derk]

slartibartfast wrote:

> loop the chain around the big chainring and the big cog on the rear
> bypassing the derailiure, match the ends up and add one link.
Today I did exactly this after buying a new D-A chain at my LBS. I showed
this to a mechanic and he said that is I would take the length I found
using this method, it would definately be too short.
I folllowed his advice, since I am sure he knows more about this then I do
and left it longer.

I then consulted the Parks website and they say one should add 1 inch to the
length found by using this method. According to them 1 inch=2 rivets.

So are the Parks people right? The length found by using the Parks method
corresponds to what my mechanic advised me. He used another method, by
looking at how low the chain was below the derailleur cage and checked it
by using the jockey wheel alignment method........

Greets, Derk

[David L. Johnson]

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 16:05:11 +0200, Derk wrote:

> slartibartfast wrote:
>
>> loop the chain around the big chainring and the big cog on the rear
>> bypassing the derailiure, match the ends up and add one link.
> Today I did exactly this after buying a new D-A chain at my LBS. I showed
> this to a mechanic and he said that is I would take the length I found
> using this method, it would definately be too short. I folllowed his
> advice, since I am sure he knows more about this then I do and left it
> longer.
>
> I then consulted the Parks website and they say one should add 1 inch to
> the length found by using this method. According to them 1 inch=2
rivets.

2 rivets is one link -- one full link. What is different about this
method from what you first described? Or do you mean an _extra_ inch?

Bottom line is that the chain has to be long enough to shift into and out
of the big-big combination. Shorter than that is asking for disaster. On
the other side, you should have enough take-up so that the small-small
comination works without slack, but that is not as critical, since if the
first fails, something breaks.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | The trouble with the rat race is that even if you win you're
_`\(,_ | still a rat. --Lilly Tomlin
(_)/ (_) |

[MikeYankee]

Derk --

isn't winning you any friends. We hate spam, too, but if you
want people to help you it's inconsiderate not to post your address -- end of
lecture.

Anyhow... >> loop the chain around the big chainring and the big cog on the
rear bypassing the derailiure, match the ends up and add one link.

This is correct, but it assumes the rider will be smart enough not to shift
onto the longest cog while on the big ring; or to change to a larger cassette
without lengthening the chain.


Mike Yankee

(Address is munged to thwart spammers.
To reply, delete everything after "com".)

[Derk]

Werehatrack wrote:

> First, a piece of unrelated advice: spam.nl is a valid domain, owned
> by rdweb.nl; they'd probably appreciate it if you didn't use an
> address that caused their spam load to go up by that much more. The
> domain invalid.com is guaranteed to be just that; invalid.
OK, thanks. I didn't know that and I changed it immedaitely.
I'll explain to you why I don't put my real email address here: I was so
foolish to do so a few months ago B4 changing providers. I got tens of
mails from Africa on a daily basis, written by sons-in-law of former kings,
presidents, dictators etc etc. I got SO sick of this, that I decided not to
publish it anymore. On top of that, since we're writing in an open forum,
it's better to post messenges in this newsgroup, than emailing someone, so
that everybody can benefit from the experience other readers (as yourself)
have.

> shift without leaving the chain untensioned. If there's a slack
> problem, try cleaning the der before making any assumptions about
> capability to handle the slack; it may just be a case of crud buildup
> keeping it from going where it needs to go...and if there's *that*
> much crud, it needed cleaning pretty desperately anyway.
My D-A group is EXTREMELY clean (I clean it twice a week and don't ride this
bike in or after rain), so that can't be the cause. My mechanic just told
me that this option was out of the question, because the derailleur cage
was pointing to much forward........

Thanks for your answer!

Greets, Derk

[Derk]

Hi Mike,

MikeYankee wrote:

> isn't winning you any friends. We hate spam, too,
I'll repeat what I just wrote another reader of this newsgroup:

I'll explain to you why I don't put my real email address here:

1)I was so foolish to do so a few months ago B4 changing providers. I got
tens of mails from Africa on a daily basis, written by sons-in-law of
former kings, presidents, dictators etc etc. I got SO sick of this, that I
decided not to publish it anymore.

> you want people to help you it's inconsiderate not to post your address --
> end of lecture.
2)since we're writing in an open forum, I feel it's better anyway to post
messenges in this newsgroup, than emailing someone directly, so that
everybody can benefit from the expertise other readers (as yourself) have.

Thanks for your answer btw!

Greets, Derk

[Sheldon Brown]

A noted fiord designer wrote:

>>loop the chain around the big chainring and the big cog on the rear
>>bypassing the derailiure, match the ends up and add one link.

Derk wrote:

> Today I did exactly this after buying a new D-A chain at my LBS. I showed
> this to a mechanic and he said that is I would take the length I found
> using this method, it would definately be too short.
> I folllowed his advice, since I am sure he knows more about this then I do
> and left it longer.
>
> I then consulted the Parks website and they say one should add 1 inch to the
> length found by using this method. According to them 1 inch=2 rivets.

That's exactly what slartibartfarst said, also what I recommend at
http://sheldonbrown.com/derailer-adjustment.html.

This is also what Shimano recommends, except that their translator got
confused between complete links and half links.

> So are the Parks people right? The length found by using the Parks method
> corresponds to what my mechanic advised me. He used another method, by
> looking at how low the chain was below the derailleur cage and checked it
> by using the jockey wheel alignment method........

That's not the best way to go, but since it gave the same result in this
instance, where's the problem?

Sheldon "Plus One" Brown
+--------------------------------------------+
| Never worry about theory as long as the |
| machinery does what it's supposed to do. |
| --Robert A. Heinlein |
+--------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

[Derk]

Bonsoir l'expert cycliste qui s'est rase la barbe depuis quelque temps!
Sheldon Brown wrote:

> That's not the best way to go, but since it gave the same result in this
> instance, where's the problem?
Well, I have 4 bikes and I was looking for a fool proof method that I can
use quickly and reliably on all my bikes.

I told my mechanic the following: put the chain over the biggest cog and big
chainwheel without passing through the derailleur. Then, add 1 link to the
shortest way to connect the chain. He did this and said: "it's too short"!


The problem for me was the difference between links and rivets. I thought 2
rivets equalled 2 links, but I understand that's not the case.

Anyway, I couldn't convince him to make the chain shorter, though I think
the chain is too long, because I hear the chain rattling when I go over
bumps. I think it hits the big chainring when I'm on the smaller chainring.
I ride a 42/53 13-23 D-A group and I'm one of those people who go crazy of
moises while riding, so I mounted a brand new D-A chain just to find out if
the chain's length is to blame for the noise, or that something else is
causing it.

BTW: when he judged it using the method recommended by Shimano, I find that
the jockey wheels are not aligned, but that the lower one is behind the
upper one, but according to him one mustn't watch the center of the cage
bolts, but the wheels themselves, which makes a difference IMHO.

Sinceres amities, Derk

[Art Harris]

Derk wrote:
> > loop the chain around the big chainring and the big cog on the rear
> > bypassing the derailiure, match the ends up and add one link.

> I then consulted the Parks website and they say one should add 1 inch to the
> length found by using this method. According to them 1 inch=2 rivets.
>
> So are the Parks people right?

1 link = 1 inch

A complete link consists of an "inny" and an "outy"

Art Harris

[(Pete Cresswell)]

RE/
>it's inconsiderate not to post your address

You're not getting enough spam yet. Wait a few months....

I'm up to a consistant 500-600 per day - but mostly for another reason.

Still, I wouldn't even *think* of posting my legitimate address in a newsgroup
any more than I'd put my telephone number up and ask strangers to make sales
calls to it.
-----------------------
PeteCresswell

[A Muzi]

"Derk" > wrote in message
...
> Bonsoir l'expert cycliste qui s'est rase la barbe depuis quelque temps!

> Sheldon Brown wrote:
> > That's not the best way to go, but since it gave the same result in this
> > instance, where's the problem?
> Well, I have 4 bikes and I was looking for a fool proof method that I can
> use quickly and reliably on all my bikes.

(derk)> I told my mechanic the following: put the chain over the biggest cog
and big
> chainwheel without passing through the derailleur. Then, add 1 link to the
> shortest way to connect the chain. He did this and said: "it's too short"!
>
> The problem for me was the difference between links and rivets. I thought
2
> rivets equalled 2 links, but I understand that's not the case.
>
> Anyway, I couldn't convince him to make the chain shorter, though I think
> the chain is too long, because I hear the chain rattling when I go over
> bumps. I think it hits the big chainring when I'm on the smaller
chainring.
> I ride a 42/53 13-23 D-A group and I'm one of those people who go crazy of
> moises while riding, so I mounted a brand new D-A chain just to find out
if
> the chain's length is to blame for the noise, or that something else is
> causing it.
>
> BTW: when he judged it using the method recommended by Shimano, I find
that
> the jockey wheels are not aligned, but that the lower one is behind the
> upper one, but according to him one mustn't watch the center of the cage
> bolts, but the wheels themselves, which makes a difference IMHO.

The chain dragging on the outer ring when in your small one is unrelated to
chain length. Annoying, but not part of that issue.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Derk]

A Muzi wrote:
> The chain dragging on the outer ring when in your small one is unrelated
> to chain length. Annoying, but not part of that issue.
I think I didn't describe this clearly, since I'm no Englsih native speaker:
it doesn't make a continuous noise because the chain touches the big ring
all the time when the chain is on the small ring, but it seems to touch the
big chainring only when I go over bumps in the street, due to lateral flex
which I think is caused by it's length. (lack of tension).

Could that be the case?

Greets, Derk