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asqui
July 29th 03, 06:35 PM
Sorry to flog a dead horse and everything but I have some questions that I
haven't been able to find answers to in the archives and FAQ, so here
goes...

[It seems this has turned into a bit of a rant now so feel free to scroll to
the bottom for the actual question I'm asking...]

I cleaned the chain on my new bike (Dawes touring bike, exclusively on-road
use in pretty clean conditions and so far rarely in rain) as thoroughly as I
could a week ago. It had 750mi on it at the time and I had the bike in for
its complimentary service at about 400mi. It came back liberally lubricated
and soon became a black mess (no doubt they just lubed whatever they use on
to the dirty chain, great). Before that I was managing to keep it pretty
clean with regular wiping down and I lubricated it once with the PTFE lube I
bought under recommendation from the shop. It was getting pretty squeaky
when shifting the rear derailer, I assume from lack of lube, but I wanted to
leave it until the service to let them deal with it as I figured they know
more than I do.

Anyway, after it became a black mess I knew it was time to sort it out
properly. I wiped it down thoroughly several times to try and keep it clean
then finally attacked it properly at 750mi on.

I wiped it down thoroughly with an old sock, scrubbed it with soapy water
and a toothbrush (I think this was pretty redundant because it didn't have
loads of mud or dirt on it, so it didn't seem to make much difference),
dried it with the sock, let it stand for about 10-20mins, sprayed Halfords
brand degreaser aeresol on it ("Rapid Air-Drying Formula", how useful -- it
seems to dry instantaneously, but at least the blast of the aeresol spray
seems to work quite well at cleaning pretty much instantly) and wiped with
the sock vigorously. Several cycles of the entire chain. It was still
feeling pretty nasty when flexing it laterally, like it had grit still in
there, though externally it was looking pretty good. I decided that this was
as good as I was going to get it and then applied the PTFE lube, using the
narrow spray tube to apply a stream of penetrating, foamy, lubricant. I
backpedalled the cranks for a little bit and wiped off the excess. I also
wiped off the chain several times in the next few days.

I think the main pitfall was that I didn't manage to clean it as thoroughly
as I would have liked. It didn't really feel "fresh" inside when I played
with it. Also, I didn't rinse off the degreaser, so although on the surface
it dries pretty quick there may have been some left inside the chain. I
think the effect of this would have been pretty limited though.

So anyway, now it's a week later and I am 830mi on. I got home after a bit
of light rain and got a bit carried away. First I wiped the frame dry, then
sprayed WD40 into all the unused rack mountings and other frame holes, wiped
the excess off and wiped the frame down with the WD40'd rag, then applied
PTFE lube to all the cable housing entry points, then to all the pivot
points on the derailers. Then I discovered how to use the PowerLink on my
Sachs/SRAM chain and took it off. It didn't feel as bad as right after I
cleaned it. I think it's because part of the dodgy feeling I had when
flexing it may have been due to the liquid inside... or maybe the lubricant
flushed some of the crap out to be picked up on subsequent wipe-downs?

Anyhow, I wiped it down seveal more times, then sprayed it with the
degreaser aeresol *liberally* and continued wiping it down. Unfortunately it
didn't seem to make all that much difference and I felt like I was wasting
time and degreaser. It still felt a little bit gritty inside.

I found a wide-neck 1L lemonade bottle and threw the chain in there in
preperation to soak it in something. (Actually, having another look at it
now it doesn't seem so bad. The gritty feeling is completely gone! Just a
bit dirty between some links and I can feel that it's not *completely* clean
inside the rollers.)

========================
End semi-irrelevant rant, begin actual question about chain cleaning...
========================

I had a rummage around the garage and found:
Mineralised Methylated Spirit (Funky purple colour!)
White Spirit
70% Isopropyl Alcohol

Which one of these would be the best to pour into the bottle and shake
occasionally to get the chain clean? I plan to leave it on my desk for a few
hours and give it a vigorous shake every now and then.

Other things I can think of to use are:
Fairy dishwashing liquid (can't see this working too well)
Dishwashing-machine powder (I'm wary of this stuff ever since it ate pits
into the bottom of a pan when left overnight in the sink)
coca cola (with all this whining about how it's so acidic, I figure it might
do some good. probably too much sugar and not enough chemicals capable of
breaking down the grease though.)

Are there any precautions? Is it posible to "over-do it" with any of these
chemicals? (Aside from the dishwashing-machine powder)

I plan on soaking it for a couple of hours with frequent agitation, then
pouring out whatever I'm using into a jar for reuse, and filling the bottle
with water and shaking vigorously for a while, maybe changing the water a
few times to make sure I clean out all of the cleaning chemicals. Then
drying it with a rag and leaving it out to dry overnight before putting it
back on the bike and aplying PTFE lubricant with a narrow tube, letting it
work its way in, then wiping down with a rag.

How does that sound?

Thanks a lot,
Dani

asqui
July 29th 03, 07:11 PM
After-thought:

If I use something like White Spirit I can just do a few rinses with that
then let the chain dry, as opposed to rinsing it with water.

asqui
July 29th 03, 07:48 PM
>> Dishwashing-machine powder (I'm wary of this stuff ever since it ate
>> pits into the bottom of a pan when left overnight in the sink)
>
> It has its uses, but the most proper ones in my opinion involve the
> use of the associated appliance. (Have you considered just tossing
> the chain in with the next load of dishes? There have been reports
> thatthis works...)

Yeah, I did read the thread on here about that a couple of days ago, but I
really think my parental units would go haywire if I even suggested it :(

>> and filling the bottle
>> with water and shaking vigorously for a while, maybe changing the
>> water a few times to make sure I clean out all of the cleaning
>> chemicals.
>
> Counterproductive with the WS solvent. Just take the chain out, wipe
> it off, let it dry for a short while, and lube it.

Yeah, I realised that rinsing with water was a bit silly a short while after
submitting the original post. Is it alright to leave it overnight to make
sure all of the WS evaporates before lubing? Or is it going to start rusting
instantaneously if left without lube...?

> I will note that my former contacts at DuPont were, without exception,
> less than complimentary about the various PTFE-doped lubricant
> products on the retail market. PTFE is a generic term for the same
> stuff as DuPont's Teflon. It does have valid applications as a
> lubrication layer, but as far as the people at DuPont were concerned,
> the majority of the *consumer* products on the market which
> incorporated it were simple frauds. DuPont did the early work with
> the stuff, they discovered it properties and usefulness, and in heir
> own plants, they don't use it for a spray or oil-carried lubricant.
> If the oil base that the chain lube contains is a good lube, then the
> presence of the PTFE is certainly going to do no harm; the stuff's
> amazingly inert at common temps. But it will *not* remain in place
> between loaded surfaces without a mechanical retaining method of some
> sort, so it's unlikely to do very much on a chain.

So basically I have some spray-lube in a can which may or may not work well
but the PTFE content is completely irrelevant and unlikely to make any
difference?

Thanks for your help,
Dani.

Eddiefel
July 29th 03, 08:02 PM
asqui wrote:

> I had a rummage around the garage and found:
> Mineralised Methylated Spirit (Funky purple colour!)
> White Spirit
> 70% Isopropyl Alcohol
>
> Which one of these would be the best to pour into the bottle and shake
> occasionally to get the chain clean? I plan to leave it on my desk for a few
> hours and give it a vigorous shake every now and then.
>

Everybody settles on their own method after awhile.

I favor taking the chain off every 500 miles or so and soaking it for a
few hours in a solution of water and Simple Green, a citrus-based
nontoxic degreaser/cleaner. I shake the container once or twice, or not
at all, the time seems to be more important than the agitation.

I then take a toothbrush and using the leftover solution give the thing
a quick scrub in the work basin. Rinse with hot water, dry with a rag,
hang it up for a couple of hours or overnight, then put it on the bike
and lube.

It's probably overkill but I like having everything perfectly clean
rather than doing a partial job. I only do this when I have a chance to
give the bike a full cleaning where I get the gunk off the chainrings,
cogs and pulleys.

If they are still dirty they soil the chain quickly; in that case I just
clean the chain as best I can on the bike with new lube and a rag.

Rick Onanian
July 29th 03, 10:58 PM
On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:35:03 +0000 (UTC), asqui >
wrote:
<long rant and question snipped>

Am I the only one who'd rather spend $25 on a new chain once every
couple years, and a new cassette every other chain, than spend an
hour cleaning my chain for every 2 hours I spend riding?

I clean my chain when I think it's full of crud, or when I'm
cleaning the whole bike. Other than that, I load it up with
chain lube every few rides; it never squeaks, and my drivetrain
lasts as long as anybody else's.

At least, this has been the case with my badly abused mountain
bike. I haven't had road bikes long enough to know.

I've got better things to do than clean my chain every day. Things
such as offending people on newsfroups...

> Thanks a lot,
> Dani
--
Rick Onanian

Werehatrack
July 30th 03, 02:07 AM
On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:58:27 -0400, Rick Onanian >
may have said:

>I've got better things to do than clean my chain every day. Things
>such as offending people on newsfroups...

Some people may have have...

- an inside parking place in which they must have a clean chain or
risk enraging The Gods, or
- time to engage in such things, and the willingsness or personally
imposed imperative to do so, or
- a cleanliness fetish, or
- a bike that they take pride in, to the point of wanting to keep it
in spanking clean condition all the time, or
- a complete lack of ability to ignore small glitches, or
- nothing with a higher priority that would keep them from cleaning
their chain at that time[1], or
- some other reason to want to do this sort of thing.

And, of course, there are folks who do it because the people with the
chain fetishes told them it was a good idea...and the list still
grows.

I clean mine as I acquire used bikes, as I notice them getting really
cruddy, and as time permits. The last time that I actually *wore out*
a chain was in (if I recall correctly) 1971. On the other hand, the
last time I *replaced* a chain was a couple of months ago, at
aquisition of a used bike that had pretty clearly been ridden hard and
put up wet....literally.



[1] depending upon the bike owner involved, this could include
watching The Simpsons on TV.

--
My email address is antispammed;
pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.

Douglas Landau
July 30th 03, 03:15 AM
If it needs the toothbrush, I figure, then there's still
grit inside.

With repeated immersion, one can see when the grit stops
coming out. I can't think of any other way to know that.

After seeing that, I can't imagine that anything else works.

Doug


Eddiefel > wrote in message >...
> asqui wrote:
>
> > I had a rummage around the garage and found:
> > Mineralised Methylated Spirit (Funky purple colour!)
> > White Spirit
> > 70% Isopropyl Alcohol
> >
> > Which one of these would be the best to pour into the bottle and shake
> > occasionally to get the chain clean? I plan to leave it on my desk for a few
> > hours and give it a vigorous shake every now and then.
> >
>
> Everybody settles on their own method after awhile.
>
> I favor taking the chain off every 500 miles or so and soaking it for a
> few hours in a solution of water and Simple Green, a citrus-based
> nontoxic degreaser/cleaner. I shake the container once or twice, or not
> at all, the time seems to be more important than the agitation.
>
> I then take a toothbrush and using the leftover solution give the thing
> a quick scrub in the work basin. Rinse with hot water, dry with a rag,
> hang it up for a couple of hours or overnight, then put it on the bike
> and lube.
>
> It's probably overkill but I like having everything perfectly clean
> rather than doing a partial job. I only do this when I have a chance to
> give the bike a full cleaning where I get the gunk off the chainrings,
> cogs and pulleys.
>
> If they are still dirty they soil the chain quickly; in that case I just
> clean the chain as best I can on the bike with new lube and a rag.

Phileas
July 30th 03, 01:19 PM
"Rick Onanian" > wrote in message
...

> Am I the only one who'd rather spend $25 on a new chain once every
> couple years, and a new cassette every other chain, than spend an
> hour cleaning my chain for every 2 hours I spend riding?
>
It doesn't take an hour to clean the chain.

I have two chains either of which at any given time is "in cleaning/lubing".
Cleaning just means shaking the chain in solvent which is then filtered and
used again with the same chain. Lubing means leaving the chain in bath of
oil for a while and then hanging it up for the excess to drain off,
following which the chain is wiped with a cloth and is then ready for use.

The whole process is spread over a period several days depending on when I
am in the shed and in the mood for a couple of minutes "work".

Having said this, I don't know how clean my chains really are (inside) after
all this and whether they will last longer but I like putting a "fresh"
chain on every week or so!

Phileas

David Damerell
July 30th 03, 01:55 PM
Rick Onanian > wrote:
>Am I the only one who'd rather spend $25 on a new chain once every
>couple years, and a new cassette every other chain, than spend an
>hour cleaning my chain for every 2 hours I spend riding?

A couple of years it's not, but you are not the only such person. I get
cheaper chains (more like $10 in your money) and more awkwardly obtained
cassettes, so I follow the 12 1/16" recommendation and aim to get three or
four chains to a cassette, but life's too short to do any more than oil
them when they squeak.
--
David Damerell > Kill the tomato!

asqui
July 30th 03, 02:31 PM
I did three rinses of White Spirit and it worked like a dream! It was kind
of scary to see the WS go completely black virtually instantly in the first
and second repetition. (This is after I had cleaned it as best I could with
rags and degreaser aeresol!)

I left it to soak for a few hours then in the last repetition the WS
remained dark but transparent after some shakes so I fished it out and hung
it up to dry. I didn't bother saving the previous dirty WS because I figured
the grease was dissolved in it and would stay dissolved forever. The last
one I did leave in the bottle to use as the first rinse next time.

This morning the chain was beautifully clean, inside and out. I could feel
its love eminating.

I cleaned the sprockets and chainrings, put it back on, gave it a liberal
spray of lube (I believe it is called Super Spray Lube or something, and
apparently it is recommended my the British Cycling Federation... so I guess
it can't be that bad, even if the PTFE claims are bogus.) The chain looks
beautiful. I'm not sure how long it will stay clean (I think much longer
than it did this time, after they lubed the dirty chain with heavy grease,
and then I foolishly rode it). The LBS guy did after all sell me this lube
as an alternative to wax!

Then I measured the chain......

It would appear that it is getting rather close to half a rivet width off at
the 12 inch mark. (When at full tension from the derailer) How can this
be??? I checked the chain on my old bike (I cringed when I saw its state...
bearing in mind it was left in a relatively "clean" condition for storage)
It had barely any stretch, and I never cleaned that thing at all, with
anything, and lubricated it with WD-40 (*cringe*) then later Halfords chain
wax. I have done ~1,000 miles on it and that's after I bought it used! How
can this brand new chain be so stretched after only ~800mi from new?

Is it possible that being so clean and free of heavy oil/gunk inside has
made it seem longer?

I tried the "pull the chain off the front of big chainring and see how much
it moves" technique and it barely moves. The movement is localised to one
complete link only, and less than half a tooth height (using this test I
believe the criteria for a new chain is when you can pull it away more than
a tooth height).

What is going on here? Do 9 speed chains wear a lot faster when not taken
care of, because they are so loose that grit can get inside much more
readily?


Dani

Steve Shapiro
July 30th 03, 03:53 PM
snip
> Are there any precautions? Is it posible to "over-do it" with any of these
> chemicals? (Aside from the dishwashing-machine powder)
>
> I plan on soaking it for a couple of hours with frequent agitation, then
> pouring out whatever I'm using into a jar for reuse, and filling the bottle
> with water and shaking vigorously for a while, maybe changing the water a
> few times to make sure I clean out all of the cleaning chemicals. Then
> drying it with a rag and leaving it out to dry overnight before putting it
> back on the bike and aplying PTFE lubricant with a narrow tube, letting it
> work its way in, then wiping down with a rag.
>
> How does that sound?
>
> Thanks a lot,
> Dani

I do not believe in using volatile solvents unless it is absolutely
necessary. Detergents and citrus cleaners are inexpensive, work very
well for cleaning chains and are easier on you and the environment.

I wanted to see if my chain cleaning ritual actually cleaned the chain
deep down around the pins, so here is what I did: I removed the dirty
chain then re-installed the quick link and held it in place with a
twisted piece of soft wire. This is to prevent the link from opening
with no tension on the chain. Then I did my usual cleansing ritual:
put chain in bottle, add hot water plus Simple Green, cap, shake, hold
for 15 minutes or longer, empty, repeat two or three times until the
liquid does not change color, rinse with hot water, and dry with a hot
air gun (a hair dryer works, but is slower.) Then I opened the quick
link to see if it was clean inside. It was. The pins were bright and
shiny as were the insides of the side plates. The exposed ends of the
inner links and the drawn bushings for the pins were also clean inside
and out.

So, I'm convinced that my easy, no volatile solvent method is fast and
effective. Much of the Simple Green can be re-used if it is saved.
Just allow the gunk to settle and decant the clean cleaner.

For lube, I've been using 20W 50 motor oil. It works very well and
lasts for hundreds of miles (probably much longer although I clean the
chain every 200 to 500 hundred miles so I don't know.) The motor oil
is messy. No matter how many times I wipe the chain after applying
the oil, I see a fine mist of oil on my back rim, especially for the
first 50 miles or so. Also, the oil attracts dirt. I wipe the chain
frequently, but I do not add more lube between cleanings. Under this
method, the chain never, never squeaks and always shifts smoothly.
There is no measurable chain wear after slightly less then 2K miles on
the chain.

I noticed that the lube that comes on new SRAM chains feels thick and
sticky. I also notice that it lasts forever and it attracts less dirt
then the motor oil. I found this in a head to head comparison as my
wife has the new SRAM chain and we ride together. Although it seems
counterintuitive, it has led me to try a thicker, sticker lube; chain
saw bar oil. I have not used it enough to form an opinion yet.

Sheldon Brown suggested the chain-in-the-bottle cleaning method I use.
Jobst Brandt suggested the lubing method.

Steve Shapiro

Werehatrack
July 30th 03, 04:16 PM
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 08:57:39 -0400, Rick Onanian >
may have said:

>On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 01:07:44 GMT, Werehatrack >
>wrote:
>
>> I clean mine as I acquire used bikes, as I notice them getting really
>> cruddy, and as time permits. The last time that I actually *wore out*
>> a chain was in (if I recall correctly) 1971.
>
>You haven't stretched any chains in the last 30 years?

From 1972 through early in 2000, my riding was infrequent to the point
that a year could go by without anything getting on the saddle of my
bike except some dust. This began to change when I picked up a used
MTB for my daughter just because it was cheap (I paid a whole buck for
it; I couldn't pass it up since it didn't even need tires) and *she*
decided that *we* needed to go riding. Since then, the bike stable
has grown from four units in various states of neglect to about a
dozen in regular use.

>I rode my
>mountain bike hard for one year and the chain stretched...since
>then, I've changed the chain during related service enough times
>that it hasn't had a chance to stretch.

Since I'm starting with chains in decent shape with good lube, doing
most of my riding on paved ways, and spreading the usage among several
units, I suspect that I will be a long time getting to the next worn
out chain.

>> [1] depending upon the bike owner involved, this could include
>> watching The Simpsons on TV.
>
>That's a pretty good priority, but the problem is...all the tv
>shows I want to watch come on when I'm asleep or riding. I'd
>love to watch Ren & Stimpy now that it's back on the air, but
>I never remember to, because I'm asleep before it comes on.

Never heard of a VCR and timed taping to view things later, then? Not
that watching TV is a better use of one's time than scratching the
cat's head, as at least two of ours will pointedly emphasize.

--
My email address is antispammed;
pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.

Rick Onanian
July 30th 03, 04:32 PM
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 15:16:50 GMT, Werehatrack >
wrote:
> Since I'm starting with chains in decent shape with good lube, doing
> most of my riding on paved ways, and spreading the usage among several
> units, I suspect that I will be a long time getting to the next worn
> out chain.

Also, I forgot to mention that I weigh 210 and sometimes
crank pretty hard, and ride very rough terrain. I'm sure
that had *nothing* to do with it. ;)

> Never heard of a VCR and timed taping to view things later, then? Not
> that watching TV is a better use of one's time than scratching the
> cat's head, as at least two of ours will pointedly emphasize.

There's a couple more problems...I used to set any VCR
to do my dirty work, and it always worked. Now, it just
never seems to work, using VCRs that have worked for me
before. I'm getting kind of discouraged.

Anyway, my cat would agree, I should scratch her head
rather than watch TV.

> --
> My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
> Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
> it's also possible that I'm busy.
--
Rick Onanian

Werehatrack
July 30th 03, 04:35 PM
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:31:02 +0000 (UTC), "asqui"
> may have said:

> I didn't bother saving the previous dirty WS because I figured
>the grease was dissolved in it and would stay dissolved forever. The last
>one I did leave in the bottle to use as the first rinse next time.

Don't discard it. Let it sit and the particulates will settle out,
leaving it stained but quite useful. Oil residue from used spirits
will do no harm, since it will be the same stuff that was lubricating
the chain to begin with, and the oil film will be really thin unless
the spirits have been used for scores of cleanings. You want to set
the bottle where it can stand at an angle to allow the solids to
settle into one corner so that you can pour off the spirit cleanly.

>I cleaned the sprockets and chainrings, put it back on, gave it a liberal
>spray of lube (I believe it is called Super Spray Lube or something, and
>apparently it is recommended my the British Cycling Federation... so I guess
>it can't be that bad, even if the PTFE claims are bogus.)

As stated, many good products have been promoted similarly; the
Pythons lampooned the practice at least once.

>It would appear that it is getting rather close to half a rivet width off at
>the 12 inch mark. (When at full tension from the derailer) How can this
>be???

Some call it "stretch", those who have taken the chains apart and
examined them call it "wear". Half a rivet is about 1.5mm, which is
not at the replacement mark by some standards. I'd have no qualms
about leaving that one in service.

>I checked the chain on my old bike (I cringed when I saw its state...
>bearing in mind it was left in a relatively "clean" condition for storage)
>It had barely any stretch, and I never cleaned that thing at all, with
>anything, and lubricated it with WD-40 (*cringe*) then later Halfords chain
>wax. I have done ~1,000 miles on it and that's after I bought it used! How
>can this brand new chain be so stretched after only ~800mi from new?

Different riding conditions produce different results. Also, is it
possible that you've gained in strength and are thereby putting more
tension on the chain when pedalling now? More strain = more abarasion
by the dirt that's present = more wear; the equation is simple.

>Is it possible that being so clean and free of heavy oil/gunk inside has
>made it seem longer?

No.



--
My email address is antispammed;
pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.

Peter Cole
July 30th 03, 05:51 PM
"Werehatrack" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:31:02 +0000 (UTC), "asqui"
> > may have said:
>
> >It would appear that it is getting rather close to half a rivet width off
at
> >the 12 inch mark. (When at full tension from the derailer) How can this
> >be???
>
> Some call it "stretch", those who have taken the chains apart and
> examined them call it "wear". Half a rivet is about 1.5mm, which is
> not at the replacement mark by some standards. I'd have no qualms
> about leaving that one in service.

The FAQ recommends replacing a chain at 1/2% elongation. At 12", this is about
1/16", or about half a rivet diameter. I try to replace mine somewhere between
a half and a full rivet diameter. Supposedly wear accelerates after the 1/2%
point, so waiting longer isn't necessarily cost effective, since sprockets and
chain rings start wearing also.

Rick Onanian
July 30th 03, 06:59 PM
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 16:51:33 GMT, Peter Cole >
wrote:
> The FAQ recommends replacing a chain at 1/2% elongation. At 12", this is
> 1/16", or about half a rivet diameter. I try to replace mine somewhere a
> half and a full rivet diameter. Supposedly wear accelerates after the
> 1/2% point, so waiting longer isn't necessarily cost effective, since
> sprockets and chain rings start wearing also.

That's the point of replacing the chain -- cassettes and cranksets
are much more expensive than chains, and once some wear shows up
on any of the above, it soon wears everything else -- if the chain
is worn, it will wear the gears; if a gear is worn, it'll wear the
chain, which will wear everything else.

Replacing stretched chains prolongs the rest of the chain drive
system's life.

--
Rick Onanian

asqui
July 30th 03, 07:04 PM
Steve Shapiro wrote:
> I do not believe in using volatile solvents unless it is absolutely
> necessary. Detergents and citrus cleaners are inexpensive, work very
> well for cleaning chains and are easier on you and the environment.

Hmmm, I hadn't considered the environmental aspect. I get the impression
that these commercial products are a bit overpriced. I haven't seen "Simple
Green" in any uk retail stores or online stores so I don't know how much it
costs.

> I wanted to see if my chain cleaning ritual actually cleaned the chain
> deep down around the pins, so here is what I did: I removed the dirty
> chain then re-installed the quick link and held it in place with a
> twisted piece of soft wire. This is to prevent the link from opening
> with no tension on the chain. Then I did my usual cleansing ritual:
> put chain in bottle, add hot water plus Simple Green, cap, shake, hold
> for 15 minutes or longer, empty, repeat two or three times until the
> liquid does not change color, rinse with hot water, and dry with a hot
> air gun (a hair dryer works, but is slower.) Then I opened the quick
> link to see if it was clean inside. It was. The pins were bright and
> shiny as were the insides of the side plates. The exposed ends of the
> inner links and the drawn bushings for the pins were also clean inside
> and out.

Yeah, the SRAM PowerLink is cleverly designed not to come apart unless you
want it to so I just cleaned the chain as a complete loop then did much the
same as you and opened the PowerLink to inspect the squeaky clean inside of
the roller and "bushing". I was very impressed, but disappointed at how
quickly it has become grimy in there again. :(

[...]
> For lube, I've been using 20W 50 motor oil. It works very well and
> lasts for hundreds of miles (probably much longer although I clean the
> chain every 200 to 500 hundred miles so I don't know.) The motor oil
> is messy. No matter how many times I wipe the chain after applying
> the oil, I see a fine mist of oil on my back rim, especially for the
> first 50 miles or so. Also, the oil attracts dirt. I wipe the chain
> frequently, but I do not add more lube between cleanings. Under this
> method, the chain never, never squeaks and always shifts smoothly.
> There is no measurable chain wear after slightly less then 2K miles on
> the chain.

!!! Now this is why I am so shocked to see my chain wearing so rapidly, when
someone tells me that they have no measurable wear with 2000 miles on, when
using heavy oil for lubrication!

> I noticed that the lube that comes on new SRAM chains feels thick and
> sticky. I also notice that it lasts forever and it attracts less dirt
> then the motor oil. I found this in a head to head comparison as my
> wife has the new SRAM chain and we ride together. Although it seems
> counterintuitive, it has led me to try a thicker, sticker lube; chain
> saw bar oil. I have not used it enough to form an opinion yet.

Hmmm, well I'm afraid to say that any polluted traces of the original
lubricant are now nowhere to be seen on my chain. If you like it so much why
don't you find out what it is and buy yourself an industrial size vat of it
from SRAM or their supplier? :)

> Sheldon Brown suggested the chain-in-the-bottle cleaning method I use.
> Jobst Brandt suggested the lubing method.

The bottle method works well indeed. I'll look into more environmentally
friendly alternatives to White Spirit. By the way, why is WS bad for the
environment? Sorry to be ignorant...

Dani
> Steve Shapiro

Werehatrack
July 30th 03, 07:44 PM
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 17:35:24 +0000 (UTC), "asqui"
> may have said:

>Is this level of clenliness acceptable?

It's probably as good as most chains get.

>Am I just getting pedantic now? I
>must say, seeing the amount of wear on the chain has certainly made me even
>more paranoid.

There's also the potential that the existing chain may not be as good
as the ones you can buy as replacements.

>>> Is it possible that being so clean and free of heavy oil/gunk inside
>>> has made it seem longer?
>>
>> No.
>
>Damn. I knew it was a long shot hoping for "yes, you now have to make it
>dirty so that it functions correctly" :)

If my short bit of experience with waxing a chain is any indication,
perhaps your speculation elsewhere that it's time to try that route
might be applicable. My one and only waxed chain seems to be
accumulating crud less swiftly than its oiled cousins. Perhaps,
though, trying the wax with a new chain, to see if the chain then
lasts longer, would be more illuminating.

I will also note that in rechecking the recommendations that are
around, "half a rivet" is considered the wear limit by some standards.
(Others go a bit farther, and that's what I'd based my observation on
previously.)

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Werehatrack
July 30th 03, 09:39 PM
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 18:04:56 +0000 (UTC), "asqui"
> may have said:

>The bottle method works well indeed. I'll look into more environmentally
>friendly alternatives to White Spirit. By the way, why is WS bad for the
>environment? Sorry to be ignorant...

All volatile organic compounds contribute to air pollution in one
manner or another, although at least WS does not contribute to
photochemical smog. Refining the spirit is also an environmentally
dirty process at the *typical* facility, although it need not be as
much as it is; profit rules over responsible behavior there. On the
other hand, many non-citrus cleaners are also produced as end products
from a petrochemical feed stock. (And I am sorry to say that as of
the last time I tried Simple Green, it was *not* citrus based; if it
has since changed, this can only be for the better, since it was
decidedly less than satisfactory for me by compasison to what I
usually use.)

You may have to seach around to discover sources for the kinds of
cleaning agents that North American users commonly have available.
Automotive supply houses may be your best bet; if not, then check with
a janitorial supply concern. Kitchen degreasers are not always good
at removing petrochemical lubricants, though.

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asqui
July 31st 03, 12:45 AM
Werehatrack wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 17:35:24 +0000 (UTC), "asqui"
> > may have said:
>
>> Am I just getting pedantic now? I
>> must say, seeing the amount of wear on the chain has certainly made
>> me even more paranoid.
>
> There's also the potential that the existing chain may not be as good
> as the ones you can buy as replacements.

Hm? It's a brand new (/was/ a brand new) SRAM 9-Speed chain.I assume this is
as good a chain as I'm going to get (for a reasonable price).

>> Damn. I knew it was a long shot hoping for "yes, you now have to
>> make it dirty so that it functions correctly" :)
>
> If my short bit of experience with waxing a chain is any indication,
> perhaps your speculation elsewhere that it's time to try that route
> might be applicable. My one and only waxed chain seems to be
> accumulating crud less swiftly than its oiled cousins. Perhaps,
> though, trying the wax with a new chain, to see if the chain then
> lasts longer, would be more illuminating.
[...]

If the trial on the next cleaning cycle of this chain goes well I might just
do that with the next chain.

Dani

Werehatrack
July 31st 03, 02:46 AM
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 23:45:33 +0000 (UTC), "asqui"
> may have said:

>> There's also the potential that the existing chain may not be as good
>> as the ones you can buy as replacements.
>
>Hm? It's a brand new (/was/ a brand new) SRAM 9-Speed chain.I assume this is
>as good a chain as I'm going to get (for a reasonable price).

I won't disagree with that, based on what I've heard; I haven't used
an SRAM chain long enough myself to say for sure, but people whose
opinions I value say they're good.



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Steve Shapiro
July 31st 03, 05:11 AM
Snip
> !!! Now this is why I am so shocked to see my chain wearing so rapidly, when
> someone tells me that they have no measurable wear with 2000 miles on, when
> using heavy oil for lubrication!

Motor oil is an excellent lubricant. But it gets dirty on the chain
and it is the dirt that does the damage. So, the trick is to decide
how dirty is too dirty. For me it's 200 to 500 miles or so depending
on where I've been riding and, frankly, the weather. If it is nice
out, I'll ride, if not, I may do maintenance work on the bikes. The
exception is if the bike gets muddy. Then it gets hosed and brushed
off at the end of the ride.


> Hmmm, well I'm afraid to say that any polluted traces of the original
> lubricant are now nowhere to be seen on my chain. If you like it so much why
> don't you find out what it is and buy yourself an industrial size vat of it
> from SRAM or their supplier? :)

I've never seen it advertised for sale but that's a poor excuse. I'll
email SRAM and see what they say.

Regarding Simple Green, it is a brand of cleaner available here in the
USA. It is the least expensive one I've seen, but it does not smell
as nice as citrus cleaners.

Steve Shapiro

Ed Chait
August 1st 03, 04:38 AM
Ok, I wonder if anyone has tried the following method.

After you clean your chain by your preferred method, you smear some grease
on it (while on the bike) and then gently use a propane torch to melt and
liquify the grease so that it penetrates into the chain.

Of course, you would put something behind the chain to protect the bike.

This method is attractive to me because the grease, when cool, will not
fling off the chain at all, and it would seem to be an excellent and durable
lubricant, especially if using a water-proof grease.

Anyone ever try this?

Ed Chait

Peter Cole
August 1st 03, 01:23 PM
"Phileas" > wrote in message
...
>
> I have two chains either of which at any given time is "in cleaning/lubing".
> Cleaning just means shaking the chain in solvent which is then filtered and
> used again with the same chain.

Filtering is unnecessary, anything that a filter will catch will settle out
quickly. I've used the same solvent for years, doing more than a dozen
cleanings/year with the same quart or so of paint thinner.

> Lubing means leaving the chain in bath of
> oil for a while and then hanging it up for the excess to drain off,
> following which the chain is wiped with a cloth and is then ready for use.

I don't see where soaking a chain in lube does anything that simply oiling a
chain on the bike does. Sounds messy.

> Having said this, I don't know how clean my chains really are (inside) after
> all this and whether they will last longer but I like putting a "fresh"
> chain on every week or so!

I find that if I flex a chain after a solvent shake, if there's any grit left
on the pins you can easily feel it once most of the lube is washed out.

Steve Shapiro
August 1st 03, 07:11 PM
> Hmmm, well I'm afraid to say that any polluted traces of the original
> lubricant are now nowhere to be seen on my chain. If you like it so much why
> don't you find out what it is and buy yourself an industrial size vat of it
> from SRAM or their supplier? :)

I checked with SRAM about the factory applied lube on their chains.
They responded promptly, something I sincerely appreciate. Here is
what they said,

"Thanks for contacting SRAM. We do not sell Gleitmo (SRAM's name for
the lube) aftermarket, and it is intended for a one-time use during
the manufacturing process. This is not something you would want to use
on your chain after it has been in use.

Besides, it is extremely expensive and is only available in 55-gallon
drums."

So, I'll continue to have fun experimenting with chain saw bar oil to
see if I like it better then motor oil. It's a thing to do on rainy
days when I prefer not to ride.

A poster mentioned the idea to heat grease to lower the viscosity for
better penetration into the chain. I've never tried to burn grease,
but I think a tourch would ignite it so I would not do it. Besides,
lubes like white lithium grease are stable at higher temperatures...we
are not talking about Crisco here.

But one could mix in a solvent that reduced the viscosity of the
grease or oil. When the solvent evaporated, it would leave thickened
lube behind. This is how the white lithium grease spray cans work.
The spray is downright runny until the propellant or solvent
evaporates and it thickens up. It works on car door hinges. I've not
tried it on a chain. I think this is the idea behind some of the
specialty bike chain lubes. They have a strong odor of heptane
(rubber cement) and similar solvents. So, the instructions say to
pour the stuff on the chain and it cleans and lubes. Actually, much
of it evaporates and leaves some oily, waxy or fluorocarbon residue
behind. These products are not for me. I find it is too easy to
clean chains thoroughly without volatile solvents and then lube them
with very effective, inexpensive motor oil or bar oil.

Steve Shapiro

Werehatrack
August 1st 03, 07:24 PM
On 1 Aug 2003 11:11:07 -0700, (Steve Shapiro)
may have said:

> I find it is too easy to
>clean chains thoroughly without volatile solvents and then lube them
>with very effective, inexpensive motor oil or bar oil.

Have you considered using motor oil of a higher viscosity (SAE50) or
adding an inexpensive viscosity improver (of the Slow-To-Pour variety)
to improve the ability of the oil to remain on the chain? (I can't
say for sure what effect, if any, this would have on dirt attraction
and retention, but I suspect it would only make matters worse in that
area.)

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