Night Riding Safety?

[Thunder9]

I want to do some night riding - mostly on the road, and some trail
riding. I'm new at this so I need some advice.

For the road, it seems that the more light the better - to be seen -
not necessarily for my own visibility.

I see motorcyclists riding during the day time with their powerful
lights on.

So the reasoning goes, fork over the bucks and get a HID light. Maybe
even two (one for the handlebars, one for the helmet).

So I'm thinking about getting just that, night rider blow torch and
storm. Cost a lot, sure. But how much is one's life and health
worth?

Also, is that kind of a dream set up for trails?

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Thunder9

[Thunder9]

Thanks. I'm researching night riding safety, and just stumbled upon a
great quote:

"Ride like you're invisible"

BTW, where do you get the reflective clothing and tape? Is Illuminite
any good?

Also, does anyone use sound blasting devices like horns?

Thanks,
Thunder9

[Ted Bennett]

> Also, does anyone use sound blasting devices like horns?
>
> Thanks,
> Thunder9


Horns are useless. None are loud enough to get the attention of some
dozy car driver with his stereo and a/c on. For errant pedestrians and
other bicyclists, yelling is colorful, reliable and virually instant.

--
Ted Bennett
Portland OR

[Ted Bennett]

> Not really. I could have used a horn last evening when there were a bunch of
> deer on the path.
>
> take care
> Liz
>
>
>
> Hey! Look what Ted Bennett > wrote :
>
> >Horns are useless. None are loud enough to get the attention of some
> >dozy car driver with his stereo and a/c on. For errant pedestrians and
> >other bicyclists, yelling is colorful, reliable and virually instant.
>

Like I said: yelling would work better. Try a blood-curdling scream on
those deer.

--
Ted Bennett
Portland OR

[Jim Edwards]

I had a back pack made from Illuminite and it didn't seem to help much. I
made a big X from reflective tape I got on sale after Halloween and my
co-workers really spotted it.

My thoughts... most danger is from cars coming up behind you. I use the
NiteRider, very bright, and another Vista blinky up high on my backpack. As
far as front lights???Ride a little slower at night at you can get by with a
6 to 10 W light. I now use a NiteRider and only use the 32W on downhills and
flats. Better to be overlighted than under if you can afford though.
If I see a car backing out our turning in front of me, I "wiggle" the handle
bars slightly to bring attention to the light. The movement seems to catch
the driver's eye and they notice me.
Jim
"Thunder9" > wrote in message
...
> I want to do some night riding - mostly on the road, and some trail
> riding. I'm new at this so I need some advice.
>
> For the road, it seems that the more light the better - to be seen -
> not necessarily for my own visibility.
>
> I see motorcyclists riding during the day time with their powerful
> lights on.
>
> So the reasoning goes, fork over the bucks and get a HID light. Maybe
> even two (one for the handlebars, one for the helmet).
>
> So I'm thinking about getting just that, night rider blow torch and
> storm. Cost a lot, sure. But how much is one's life and health
> worth?
>
> Also, is that kind of a dream set up for trails?
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Thanks,
> Thunder9
>

[Thunder9]

On 30 Jul 2003 22:02:56 GMT, (TBGibb) wrote:

>In article >,
>(Thunder9) writes:
>
>>I want to do some night riding - mostly on the road, and some trail
>>riding. I'm new at this so I need some advice.
>>
>>For the road, it seems that the more light the better - to be seen -
>>not necessarily for my own visibility.
>>
>>I see motorcyclists riding during the day time with their powerful
>>lights on.
>>
>>So the reasoning goes, fork over the bucks and get a HID light. Maybe
>>even two (one for the handlebars, one for the helmet).
>
>You don't need an HID to "be seen" a simple 1.25 W halogen will serve without
>spending 30X as much.

I've read this before, and I don't buy this argument. The fact of the
matter is, most people even if they rode with no lights at all...
would never get into a serious or life threatening wreck. Similarly,
most airbags are never deployed. Yet they save lives, and increase
your odds of surviving "the big one" and with vastly reduced injury.

Motorcyclists often talk about the time they are hit... the driver was
looking right at them, but the driver didn't "see" them because the
visual-footprint of the motorcyclist doesn't register in the mind of
the average driver.

The fundamental issue is one of statistics, and can be thought of like
this:

1. What is the probability of getting hit at night with 1 W halogen,
with 2 W halogen, with 10 W halogen, with 20 W halogen, and with 40 W
halogen. Of course, there is no data for this, but the probability
could be estimated if police around the world were to start compiling
data on crash rates. There would be many other factors such as
country, city, traffic type, weather, etc. but with enough data, one
could theoretically keep many variables constant and look at light vs.
safety.

2. Then determine how does this compare to other dangers in your life
and how much do you spend to protect yourself from those. This puts
the saftey increase in perspective. If it increases your safety
factor by the same amount as using your seatbelt in a car, then for me
the cost would be worth it. If it increases the safety factor by a
very small amount, then maybe it isn't worth it.

But alas we don't have all this good data. We only have peoples
opinions and anecdotal stories. So we must mentally determine the
probabilities and risk vs. benefit vs. cost.

I am duely impressed by the passion behind the anecdotal stories. The
bottom line seems to be that "cars respect you more" when you use HID
on the street. People have noticed clear behavioral changes of
drivers when they ride with HID. This leads me to believe that HID
does make a significant safety impact at night. I can't quantify it,
but I'm now convinced /* there's a good chance that */ it is worth the
money.

If I didn't buy HID, I would in all probability be able to regularly
ride at night without ever having an accident. But I think the
increased safety benefit is significant. And I feel its part of my
responsibility as a parent to make this purchase. Besides, its also
kewl as sh..

Regards,
Thunder9

[Jay Beattie]

"Thunder9" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks. I'm researching night riding safety, and just stumbled upon a
> great quote:
>
> "Ride like you're invisible"
>
> BTW, where do you get the reflective clothing and tape? Is Illuminite
> any good?

Illuminite is not nearly as good as the advertising hype (who wudda
guessed). I have a jacket that gives off an underwhelming glow when hit
with bright light. Of course, It is useless for rear illumination if I
am carying a backpack. 3M reflective strips are good, especially on
moving parts -- and a strip up the back of the booties is excellent.
The fabric treatements are far less effective than the plastic tapes.

IMO, you should buy the brightest light that you can afford which also
meets your needs in terms of run time, weight, durability, etc. I have
ridden with people with HIDs, and the light seemed rather odd to me --
it was blinding to took at, but it was not all that illuminating on the
roadway. Maybe it was a lense problem. A good bright flasher is a must.


The invisible thing is especially true when encountering cross traffic.
A dim bicycle light often fades into the background of car lights,
business and other light sources, and my most common problem at night is
having cars pull out in front of me, even when using a 20+ watt
set-up. -- Jay Beattie.

[ant]

Ted Bennett > wrote in message news:<tedbennett-

> For errant pedestrians and
> other bicyclists, yelling is colorful, reliable and virually instant.

works a charm on the odd driver too, if you put some oopmfh into it.
and so satisfying.. ;)

theres nothing like the look on a driver's face when he almost kills
you, you dodge him, blow by his window, and let him know how you feel
about him

a) backing into the 'empty' road when you are doing 30 down a hill
b) opening his door into the 'empty' road.
c) swerving into the 'empty' lane without indicating.

etc..

but back on topic- if you were having close calls, as i do from time
to time (apparentely i am a stealth biker), one of those disposable
airhorns really would be impressive. they are inbeleivably loud. i
think i could zip tie one to my handlebar, and just about wake up any
driver within a block, nevermind the stereo. makes me smile to think
of it.

[Bill Davidson]

Jay Beattie wrote:
> Illuminite is not nearly as good as the advertising hype (who wudda
> guessed). I have a jacket that gives off an underwhelming glow when hit
> with bright light.

I have to agree. I am not impressed with its reflectivity. The
only way I've been able to get a good reflection off of it is
with a camera flash; which is very unlike a car headlight.

3M strips work pretty well as does reflective tape.

Avoid Illuminite. It's a rip-off.

--Bill Davidson
--
Please remove ".nospam" from my address for email replies.

I'm a 17 year veteran of usenet -- you'd think I'd be over it by now

[TBGibb]

In article >,
(Thunder9) writes:

>>You don't need an HID to "be seen" a simple 1.25 W halogen will serve
>without
>>spending 30X as much.
>
>I've read this before, and I don't buy this argument. The fact of the
>matter is, most people even if they rode with no lights at all...
>would never get into a serious or life threatening wreck. Similarly,
>most airbags are never deployed. Yet they save lives, and increase
>your odds of surviving "the big one" and with vastly reduced injury.

You don't buy which argument? The idea that a 1.25 W halogen will get a
driver's attention or that one should have an HID to be noticed?

Tom Gibb >

[Thunder9]

On 31 Jul 2003 05:00:10 GMT, (TBGibb) wrote:

>In article >,
>(Thunder9) writes:
>
>>>You don't need an HID to "be seen" a simple 1.25 W halogen will serve
>>without
>>>spending 30X as much.
>>
>>I've read this before, and I don't buy this argument. The fact of the
>>matter is, most people even if they rode with no lights at all...
>>would never get into a serious or life threatening wreck. Similarly,
>>most airbags are never deployed. Yet they save lives, and increase
>>your odds of surviving "the big one" and with vastly reduced injury.
>
>You don't buy which argument? The idea that a 1.25 W halogen will get a
>driver's attention or that one should have an HID to be noticed?

Here is what I thought you were saying (I disagree with the first
statement, and thus with the conclusions that follow):

"A 1.25 W halogen is just as effecitve as HID in getting the attention
of drivers. So HID offers insignificant increases in safetey.
Therefore, the cost of HID is unjustified."

I apologize if I misunderstood you. Perhaps you can clarify.... and
explain why you think a 1.25 W halogen is just as good as HID for
getting the attention of drivers?

Regards,
Thunder9

[Werehatrack]

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 01:14:41 GMT, (Thunder9) may
have said:

>I see motorcyclists riding during the day time with their powerful
>lights on.

In many states, this is mandatory. (It may be a Federal requirement,
but I believe it isn't as yet.)

>So the reasoning goes, fork over the bucks and get a HID light. Maybe
>even two (one for the handlebars, one for the helmet).

Former, good idea. Latter, bad idea, in my opinion, for the same
reasons already stated by other contributors.

>So I'm thinking about getting just that, night rider blow torch and
>storm. Cost a lot, sure. But how much is one's life and health
>worth?

The answer to this question is, for the majority, "More than I can
afford, but I can't sit here and hide under a rock, either." Most
people will buy what they consider to be a good balance between their
needs and their budgets. For some, this is a roll of electrical tape
and a 2-AA Maglite. I will not disparage their choice, if that's all
they can provide.

--
My email address is antispammed;
pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.

[Chris Zacho The Wheelman]

When I commute by bike during the wee hours of dark, I use a NightSun
headlamp, orange front flasher, red rear flasher, reflectors front and
rear, reflectorized leg bands (Nashbar makes a really nice BRIGHT set),
and special metal prism reflective tapes on my rims. 16 each, front and
rear, mounted on the face of the rims, between the spokes.

The rim reflectors are probably the best idea, they are seen from all
angles and create two distinct rotating circles of light. Unmistakably a
bicycle.

May you have the wind at your back.
And a really low gear for the hills!
Chris

Chris'Z Corner
"The Website for the Common Bicyclist":
http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

[Thunder9]

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:48:43 -0400 (EDT),
(Chris Zacho "The Wheelman") wrote:

>When I commute by bike during the wee hours of dark, I use a NightSun
>headlamp, orange front flasher, red rear flasher, reflectors front and
>rear, reflectorized leg bands (Nashbar makes a really nice BRIGHT set),
>and special metal prism reflective tapes on my rims. 16 each, front and
>rear, mounted on the face of the rims, between the spokes.
>
>The rim reflectors are probably the best idea, they are seen from all
>angles and create two distinct rotating circles of light. Unmistakably a
>bicycle.

Where do you get these from?

[Werehatrack]

On 31 Jul 2003 20:46:45 GMT, (MikeYankee)
may have said:

>IMHO the motorist issues are usually manageable with proper care. One common
>problem (at least for me, in a rural area) is that cars too often do not dim
>their lights for approaching cyclists. What I worry about most at night is
>hitting an unseen pothole, branch, etc.

I think that at least in part, the light non-dimming may be in part
due to their not realizing that there's a bike behind that headlight.
It's probably going to continue to be a problem until there are more
bikes on the road, but in some cases, adding a front amber flasher may
help. I don't do any rural night riding at this point, so I have
nothing but my experience from the other side of the equation to offer
in that area. Sometimes *I* don't realize that a not-too-bright and
relatively slow-moving white lamp is a bike coming toward me until
it's way too late. When driving in a rural area, t's hard to judge
distance to a single point of light in the dark, and a bike headlight
is easy to mistake for a number of other things including a pedestrian
with a flashlight. (And if your roads are in the same kind of shape
as ours, getting blinded by high beams could be deadly; our pothole
committee has been installing some whoppers along the verges of late.)

--
My email address is antispammed;
pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.

[Bill Davidson]

In article >, (Thunder9) writes:
>I apologize if I misunderstood you. Perhaps you can clarify.... and
>explain why you think a 1.25 W halogen is just as good as HID for
>getting the attention of drivers?

TBGibb wrote:
> That's correct. The 1.25 W halogen stands out as a bright spot in the
> darkness. Since it's moving from side to side as the rider manuvers the bike
> it is adequate for "being seen." I don't find it to be much help in seeing the
> road though.

There's being visible and there's grabbing your attention.

You can see a candle from 1/2 mile away in the dark.
You can also see a giant bonfire from roughly the same distance.

Which one do you notice first?

I'm guessing the brighter one. More light is more noticable.

--Bill Davidson
--
Please remove ".nospam" from my address for email replies.

I'm a 17 year veteran of usenet -- you'd think I'd be over it by now

[1.21 Giga Watts]

(Thunder9) wrote in message >...
> I want to do some night riding - mostly on the road, and some trail
> riding. I'm new at this so I need some advice.
>
> For the road, it seems that the more light the better - to be seen -
> not necessarily for my own visibility.
>
> I see motorcyclists riding during the day time with their powerful
> lights on.
>
> So the reasoning goes, fork over the bucks and get a HID light. Maybe
> even two (one for the handlebars, one for the helmet).
>
> So I'm thinking about getting just that, night rider blow torch and
> storm. Cost a lot, sure. But how much is one's life and health
> worth?
>
> Also, is that kind of a dream set up for trails?
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Thanks,
> Thunder9

FWIW, I was inches away from getting creamed by an SUV making a left
hand turn (The driver started making the turn about a half block too
early. I jumped off the bike and over to the curb. The SUV's tires
were inches from my bike's tires.). I had a single 1.5W CatEye and a
rear blinkie. Now I have two headlights PLUS a front yelllow blinkie,
as well as the rear red blinkie. I think that the yellow front
blinkie is the eye catcher, not necessarily the brightness of the
headlights (but I added the second headlight to hedge my bet!).

So, IMHO, you need:

* Enough illumination to see where you're going and to avoid road
obsticles.

* A blinkie light front AND rear so the point-n-click drivers see
something they aren't accustomed to.

* Enough reflective tape to make you feel better.

* Ride like you're invisible (as another poster said).

Happy Trails,
GW

[John Albergo]

Jay Beattie wrote:

> I have
>ridden with people with HIDs, and the light seemed rather odd to me --
>it was blinding to took at, but it was not all that illuminating on the
>roadway. Maybe it was a lense problem. A good bright flasher is a must.
>
>
>
I think it's because the light is heavy on the bluish part of the
spectrum. The low amount of yellow and red components does give a
certain feeling of ghostliness to the illumination. Stop signs, for
example, look grayish. Still plenty of light to see the road well
though, imo. Another result is that I find glass in the roadway less
noticeable and I think that has to do with less information reflected
back -- less chromatic refraction or "sparkle". If you shine a
monochromatic light into a prism you get no rainbow. These are minor
annoyances though, compared to what I feel is an outstanding advantage
in getting noticed by oncoming traffic and traffic approaching
intersections.

[Thunder9]

On Sat, 02 Aug 2003 07:20:49 GMT, John Albergo >
wrote:

>
>
>Jim Edwards wrote:
>
>>My thoughts... most danger is from cars coming up behind you.
>>
>In my experience the dangerous encounters are from cars entering the
>side (sidestreet, parking lot, driveway), and also oncoming traffic
>turning in front of you.
>


This concurs with my research on the Internet. The prevailing
research/wisdom indicates that most people are scared of getting hit
from behind, but the real danger is from side traffic or cars pulling
in front of you. Also, the cars coming from behind won't typically
crash right into you, but rather, go around you and then make a right
hand turn into you (according to my research). I suspect this is
partially due to the rider being too far to the right, out of fear of
getting hit from behind, thus allowing the car to pass with little
bearth and little conciousness of sharing the road.

I think its similar to the fear of flying. Statistically, flying is
safer than driving. But there is a sense of loss of control, and your
life is literally in the hands of another individual.

Regards,
Thunder9

[JOE]

I use a Fiamm Freeway Blaster - 132 decibels ... you can see it mounted
to the right of the big rectangular amber strobe, - and it gets some
serious attention. Saved my ass more times than I care to remember.

http://d21c.com/krnspn/PIC/bike1.jpg

All the stuff you see is powered by a 4.5 Ampere Hour 12-volt SLA
battery, and makes for fun nighttime riding.

Even in the daytime, you can see how bright the headlamp is.

Joe

[John Albergo]

Thunder9 wrote:

>
>
>Also, the cars coming from behind won't typically
>crash right into you, but rather, go around you and then make a right
>hand turn into you (according to my research). I suspect this is
>partially due to the rider being too far to the right, out of fear of
>getting hit from behind, thus allowing the car to pass with little
>bearth and little conciousness of sharing the road.
>
That seems true; makes you seem less like "traffic". Another factor
seems to be motorists underestimating your speed. They see you but
think they have plenty of time to complete the maneuver; judging your
speed as much from their experience as from direct observation ("oh,
that's just a bike"). They're not really *trying* to kill you; it just
seems that way. Again, a very bright light seems to help correct some
of these erroneous subconcious evaluations.

[Ignatz Q. Mouse]

Chris Zacho The Wheelman wrote:
> When I commute by bike during the wee hours of dark, I use a NightSun
> headlamp, orange front flasher, red rear flasher, reflectors front and
> rear, reflectorized leg bands (Nashbar makes a really nice BRIGHT set),
> and special metal prism reflective tapes on my rims. 16 each, front and
> rear, mounted on the face of the rims, between the spokes.
>
> The rim reflectors are probably the best idea, they are seen from all
> angles and create two distinct rotating circles of light. Unmistakably a
> bicycle.
>
> May you have the wind at your back.
> And a really low gear for the hills!
> Chris
>
> Chris'Z Corner
> "The Website for the Common Bicyclist":
> http://www.geocities.com/czcorner
>

Just 2 cents... the flashers improve visibility tremendously. My
morning commute begins at 6 AM, which can be dark or foggy or both.
And a flashing light gets noticed far sooner than a steady light.

Your setup sounds like the epitomy of good sense. I'm appalled by the
number of dawn/dusk riders I see without even so much as one disc
reflector. I usually spot these people when I'm nearly upon them. As a
driver I appreciate someone's efforts to make themselves visible at a
distance as it helps me anticipate how best to give them safe clearance.

[Dan Barch]

(Thunder9) wrote in message >...
> On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:48:43 -0400 (EDT),
> (Chris Zacho "The Wheelman") wrote:
>
> >When I commute by bike during the wee hours of dark, I use a NightSun
> >headlamp, orange front flasher, red rear flasher, reflectors front and
> >rear, reflectorized leg bands (Nashbar makes a really nice BRIGHT set),
> >and special metal prism reflective tapes on my rims. 16 each, front and
> >rear, mounted on the face of the rims, between the spokes.
> >
> >The rim reflectors are probably the best idea, they are seen from all
> >angles and create two distinct rotating circles of light. Unmistakably a
> >bicycle.
>
> Where do you get these from?

Not sure if this is what he has, but a web search finds prism tape is
used for fishing lures. So you know the glue is waterproof! Here is an
example from Cabela's

http://makeashorterlink.com/?F2DE11A75

[Thunder9]

On 4 Aug 2003 09:25:58 -0700, (Thomas Reynolds)
wrote:

I do appreciate your comments, of which most seem very sensible. Some
reactions, however, as indicated below...


(Thunder9) wrote in message >...
>> I want to do some night riding - mostly on the road, and some trail
>> riding. I'm new at this so I need some advice.
>>
>
>I have been commuting at night for several years, all on the road and
>here is my advice:
>
>- The headlight is mostly for you. You don't have to go overboard.
>If you plan on charging down steep hills at speed you will need a
>bright light. If not maybe you can back off on the headlight and its
>cost.
>
>- The MOST IMPORTANT part of being seen are the rear flashing
>taillights.

This is not what the general consensus (base on statistics) indicate.
Most accidents occur from cars cutting in front of you and from their
misjudgement of your speed. Rear lights have little to do with front
visibility, and flashing lights make it more difficult to judge speed.
I think your suggestion is important, but perhaps not the most
important.

>I have four flashing red light pointed backwards. There
>are a lot of red lights out there, claiming 100 hours of use on a
>single battery. That may be true but after the first couple of hours
>they will noticably dim. The Vettas don't do this. Cateye is also
>supposed to stay bright but I don't have any experience with them.
>
>- I also have a red flasher mounted on either side of my front fork.
>These surprised me at how effective they are at alerting motorist
>approaching from side streets. It prevents them from pulling out as
>though your don't exist.
>
>- Illuminite is not worth the money. Reflective tape is more
>effective and available at most bike shops.
>
>- Another thing available at most bike shops are reflective straps to
>go around your ankles. In many states (including here in CA) the law
>reqires a reflector on the back of your pedals. Since clipless pedals
>don't have these, the straps around your ankles are a substitute.
>
>- Don't remove the reflectors in your spokes. They also help.
>
>- Niterider quality control leaves a lot to be desired. I have three
>of their products and have had problems with all three. (I could fill
>up another post describing them).
>
>In general, riding at night is fun and, provided you are lit up like a
>Christmas tree as I am, as safe as any road riding can be.
>
>If you want to talk more about this respond to the Email address
>below.

I like keeping discussions as open dialog "on the net" because it
facillitates other people's opinions and ideas.

Thanks for your great post!

Regards,
Thunder9

[Thomas Reynolds]

(Thunder9) wrote in message >...
> On 4 Aug 2003 09:25:58 -0700, (Thomas Reynolds)
> wrote:
>
> I do appreciate your comments, of which most seem very sensible. Some
> reactions, however, as indicated below...
>
>
> (Thunder9) wrote in message >...
> >> I want to do some night riding - mostly on the road, and some trail
> >> riding. I'm new at this so I need some advice.
> >>
> >
> >I have been commuting at night for several years, all on the road and
> >here is my advice:
> >
> >- The headlight is mostly for you. You don't have to go overboard.
> >If you plan on charging down steep hills at speed you will need a
> >bright light. If not maybe you can back off on the headlight and its
> >cost.
> >
> >- The MOST IMPORTANT part of being seen are the rear flashing
> >taillights.
>
> This is not what the general consensus (base on statistics) indicate.
> Most accidents occur from cars cutting in front of you and from their
> misjudgement of your speed. Rear lights have little to do with front
> visibility, and flashing lights make it more difficult to judge speed.
> I think your suggestion is important, but perhaps not the most
> important.
>
Let me make a counterpoint. I have not seen the statistic but they
seem quite believable to me.

Cars cut in front of you because your existance doesn't register in
your mind. How many times have you been cut off and when you were
able to confront the motorist his/her response was "I didn't even see
you". They saw you but it didn't sink in. So when they make their
turn they don't remember that they just passed a cyclist.

During the day a motorist sees cyclists all the time. It is not so
common at night. So when they do see a night cyclist it tends to
register in their mind better.

The operative word there is "see" the cyclist. Hence my reason for
being as lit up as possible from all directions.

Tom