Mike Vandeman
February 25th 07, 06:13 AM
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 20:10:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Mike Vandeman >
Subject: Re:
To: Ryan Kay >
You didn't refute anything I said. It's true
that
mountain biking is not sustainable, and finding
other bad things to compare it with doesn't
change that. By your logic, we should ignore
assault and burglary, because they aren't as
bad
as murder.
You also didn't tell the truth about that cell
phone study. It didn't say "no evidence of harm
to bodies". It said "no cancer".
Why can't mountain bikers just tell the truth?!
If you don't like people telling the truth
about
mountain biking, why don't you move to a
country
without freedom of speech, like North Korea?
--- Ryan Kay > wrote:
> take a step off your soap box and look
around.
> mountain biking "non-sustainable." Do you not
> eat food that comes from the environment or
> ever drive a vehicle? obviously, you use a
> computer and that was probably shipped from
> china consuming non-sustainable resources and
> exposing children to toxic metals etc. did
you
> not see the latest research of cell phones,
> no
> evidence of harm to bodies. get off your
> platform.
>
> ryan kay
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Vandeman >
> To: Recipient list suppressed:;
> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 09:35:35 -0800
> Subject: "Divisive Issue"
>
> To:
>
> February 21, 2007
>
> Nature Conservancy
>
> Re: "Divisive Issue" (Winter 2006 Issue, p.6)
>
> To the Editor:
>
> Times change. We learn new things, and old
> ideas become obsolete.
> It's inevitable. For example, we can no
longer
> safely assume that
> water from mountain streams is safe to drink.
> As Mark Gross stated so
> eloquently, exploiting wildlife and wildlife
> habitat, for pleasuring
> humans, is fast becoming obsolete (although
> dropping support for
> Nature Conservancy seems counter-productive
to
> me). The
> rationalizations for such exploitation are
> transparently just that.
> Aldo Leopold is a good example of discarding
> obsolete notions (the
> killing of wolves) when they become clearly
> untenable.
>
> This not to say that denigration of the
> "exploiters" is okay. I can't
> really criticize 19th century Americans for
not
> anticipating modern
> conservation biology. And I don't think that
> difference of opinion
> necessarily means we can't get along and work
> together. There will
> probably always be compromises "on the
ground".
>
> But I don't see any reason to compromise on
> telling the truth! Yes,
> we are animals somewhat like other animals,
but
> we are not a natural
> part of any ecosystem. We are a species that
is
> native to part of
> Africa, and everywhere else a very late
> newcomer, i.e. an exotic
> species. Like all exotic species, we have
> arguably no right to
> access, much less exploit, local ecosystems,
> especially when those
> activities threaten native species (except
> that, when it's
> convenient, we claim that "might makes
right").
>
> There is no honest way in today's environment
> to rationalize hunting,
> fishing, and "collecting" of native species,
or
> non-sustainable
> recreational activities like mountain biking.
>
> Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
>
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
>
> References:
>
> Ehrlich, Paul R. and Ehrlich, Anne H.,
> Extinction: The Causes and
> Consequences of the Disappearances of
Species.
> New York: Random House, 1981.
>
> Errington, Paul L., A Question of Values.
Ames,
> Iowa: Iowa State
> University Press, 1987.
>
> Flannery, Tim, The Eternal Frontier -- An
> Ecological History of North
> America and Its Peoples. New York: Grove
Press,
> 2001.
>
> Foreman, Dave, Confessions of an Eco-Warrior.
> New York: Harmony Books, 1991.
>
> Knight, Richard L. and Kevin J. Gutzwiller,
> eds. Wildlife and
> Recreationists. Covelo, California: Island
> Press, 1995.
>
> Louv, Richard, Last Child in the Woods --
> Saving Our Children from
> Nature-Deficit Disorder. Chapel Hill, N.C.:
> Algonquin Books of Chapel
> Hill, 2005.
>
> Noss, Reed F. and Allen Y. Cooperrider,
Saving
> Nature's Legacy:
> Protecting and Restoring Biodiversity. Island
> Press, Covelo, California, 1994.
>
> Stone, Christopher D., Should Trees Have
> Standing? Toward Legal
> Rights for Natural Objects. Los Altos,
> California: William Kaufmann,
> Inc., 1973.
>
> Vandeman, Michael J.,
>
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande,
>
> especially
>
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/india3>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/india3,
>
> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/sc8,
>
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb4>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb4,
>
> and
>
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7.
>
> Ward, Peter Douglas, The End of Evolution: On
> Mass Extinctions and
> the Preservation of Biodiversity. New York:
> Bantam Books, 1994.
>
> "The Wildlands Project", Wild Earth.
Richmond,
> Vermont: The Cenozoic
> Society, 1994.
>
> Wilson, Edward O., The Future of Life. New
> York: Alfred A. Knopf, 2002.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
From: Mike Vandeman >
Subject: Re:
To: Ryan Kay >
You didn't refute anything I said. It's true
that
mountain biking is not sustainable, and finding
other bad things to compare it with doesn't
change that. By your logic, we should ignore
assault and burglary, because they aren't as
bad
as murder.
You also didn't tell the truth about that cell
phone study. It didn't say "no evidence of harm
to bodies". It said "no cancer".
Why can't mountain bikers just tell the truth?!
If you don't like people telling the truth
about
mountain biking, why don't you move to a
country
without freedom of speech, like North Korea?
--- Ryan Kay > wrote:
> take a step off your soap box and look
around.
> mountain biking "non-sustainable." Do you not
> eat food that comes from the environment or
> ever drive a vehicle? obviously, you use a
> computer and that was probably shipped from
> china consuming non-sustainable resources and
> exposing children to toxic metals etc. did
you
> not see the latest research of cell phones,
> no
> evidence of harm to bodies. get off your
> platform.
>
> ryan kay
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Vandeman >
> To: Recipient list suppressed:;
> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 09:35:35 -0800
> Subject: "Divisive Issue"
>
> To:
>
> February 21, 2007
>
> Nature Conservancy
>
> Re: "Divisive Issue" (Winter 2006 Issue, p.6)
>
> To the Editor:
>
> Times change. We learn new things, and old
> ideas become obsolete.
> It's inevitable. For example, we can no
longer
> safely assume that
> water from mountain streams is safe to drink.
> As Mark Gross stated so
> eloquently, exploiting wildlife and wildlife
> habitat, for pleasuring
> humans, is fast becoming obsolete (although
> dropping support for
> Nature Conservancy seems counter-productive
to
> me). The
> rationalizations for such exploitation are
> transparently just that.
> Aldo Leopold is a good example of discarding
> obsolete notions (the
> killing of wolves) when they become clearly
> untenable.
>
> This not to say that denigration of the
> "exploiters" is okay. I can't
> really criticize 19th century Americans for
not
> anticipating modern
> conservation biology. And I don't think that
> difference of opinion
> necessarily means we can't get along and work
> together. There will
> probably always be compromises "on the
ground".
>
> But I don't see any reason to compromise on
> telling the truth! Yes,
> we are animals somewhat like other animals,
but
> we are not a natural
> part of any ecosystem. We are a species that
is
> native to part of
> Africa, and everywhere else a very late
> newcomer, i.e. an exotic
> species. Like all exotic species, we have
> arguably no right to
> access, much less exploit, local ecosystems,
> especially when those
> activities threaten native species (except
> that, when it's
> convenient, we claim that "might makes
right").
>
> There is no honest way in today's environment
> to rationalize hunting,
> fishing, and "collecting" of native species,
or
> non-sustainable
> recreational activities like mountain biking.
>
> Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
>
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
>
> References:
>
> Ehrlich, Paul R. and Ehrlich, Anne H.,
> Extinction: The Causes and
> Consequences of the Disappearances of
Species.
> New York: Random House, 1981.
>
> Errington, Paul L., A Question of Values.
Ames,
> Iowa: Iowa State
> University Press, 1987.
>
> Flannery, Tim, The Eternal Frontier -- An
> Ecological History of North
> America and Its Peoples. New York: Grove
Press,
> 2001.
>
> Foreman, Dave, Confessions of an Eco-Warrior.
> New York: Harmony Books, 1991.
>
> Knight, Richard L. and Kevin J. Gutzwiller,
> eds. Wildlife and
> Recreationists. Covelo, California: Island
> Press, 1995.
>
> Louv, Richard, Last Child in the Woods --
> Saving Our Children from
> Nature-Deficit Disorder. Chapel Hill, N.C.:
> Algonquin Books of Chapel
> Hill, 2005.
>
> Noss, Reed F. and Allen Y. Cooperrider,
Saving
> Nature's Legacy:
> Protecting and Restoring Biodiversity. Island
> Press, Covelo, California, 1994.
>
> Stone, Christopher D., Should Trees Have
> Standing? Toward Legal
> Rights for Natural Objects. Los Altos,
> California: William Kaufmann,
> Inc., 1973.
>
> Vandeman, Michael J.,
>
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande,
>
> especially
>
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/india3>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/india3,
>
> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/sc8,
>
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb4>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb4,
>
> and
>
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7.
>
> Ward, Peter Douglas, The End of Evolution: On
> Mass Extinctions and
> the Preservation of Biodiversity. New York:
> Bantam Books, 1994.
>
> "The Wildlands Project", Wild Earth.
Richmond,
> Vermont: The Cenozoic
> Society, 1994.
>
> Wilson, Edward O., The Future of Life. New
> York: Alfred A. Knopf, 2002.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande