Re: Thoughts on braking

[asqui]

Luigi de Guzman wrote:
[....]
> Both brakes should be applied at the same time when stopping. Even
> though the full braking potential of each wheel may not be required
> for normal, planned stops, it is important to develop the habit of
> using both brakes so that your reflexes will be ready to respond
> quickly and properly when an emergency situation occurs."
>
> they even have a diagram:
>
> <http://www.msf-usa.org/CourseReview/assets/RiderHandbook_27_1.gif>
[...]

Oh dear, not more of this nonsense.

Disclamer: The following discussion is carried out in the context of braking
on regular, clean, dry, level, road surface in a straight line, for the
purpose of decelerating from a given velocity to zero velocity in the
shortest distance possible.

Assuming the front tyre has enough traction to not skid before the
pitch-over point (reasonable assumption IMO). Maximal braking is at the
pitch-over point where your rear wheel is just about to leave the ground,
and cannot possibly contribute any significant amount of braking.

Hence at max. braking your rear brake contributes little more than a
skidding rear wheel, helping you on your way to losing control.

Dani

[Luigi de Guzman]

"asqui" > wrote in message >...
> Luigi de Guzman wrote:
> [....]
> > Both brakes should be applied at the same time when stopping. Even
> > though the full braking potential of each wheel may not be required
> > for normal, planned stops, it is important to develop the habit of
> > using both brakes so that your reflexes will be ready to respond
> > quickly and properly when an emergency situation occurs."
> >
> > they even have a diagram:
> >
> > <http://www.msf-usa.org/CourseReview/assets/RiderHandbook_27_1.gif>
> [...]
>
> Oh dear, not more of this nonsense.
>
> Disclamer: The following discussion is carried out in the context of braking
> on regular, clean, dry, level, road surface in a straight line, for the
> purpose of decelerating from a given velocity to zero velocity in the
> shortest distance possible.
>
> Assuming the front tyre has enough traction to not skid before the
> pitch-over point (reasonable assumption IMO). Maximal braking is at the
> pitch-over point where your rear wheel is just about to leave the ground,
> and cannot possibly contribute any significant amount of braking.
>
> Hence at max. braking your rear brake contributes little more than a
> skidding rear wheel, helping you on your way to losing control.
>
> Dani

I'm not disputing your statement. what I'm asking is--if front-wheel
only braking is maximal, why do the motorcycle guys say to use both
brakes? Especially considering their maximum speeds are much higher
than ours...

It looks like I'm going to have to perform experiments.

-Luigi

[S. Anderson]

"Luigi de Guzman" > wrote in message
om...
> "asqui" > wrote in message
>...
>
> I'm not disputing your statement. what I'm asking is--if front-wheel
> only braking is maximal, why do the motorcycle guys say to use both
> brakes? Especially considering their maximum speeds are much higher
> than ours...
>
> It looks like I'm going to have to perform experiments.
>
> -Luigi

I'm a motorcycle guy and I'm telling you I rarely use the rear brake. When
I'm braking heavily the rear wheel will actually be in the air part of the
time. The rear brake does very little at maximum braking, other than give
you something else to worry about. At more moderate stopping pressures the
rear brake can contribute to braking proportionate to the weight that's on
the rear tire. At the racetrack I never touch the rear brake. On the
street, I use it occasionally when it's wet out and to hold my bike still at
stop lights..that's about it.

Cheers,

Scott..

[David Kerber]

In article >, luigi12081
@cox.net says...

....

> > Assuming the front tyre has enough traction to not skid before the
> > pitch-over point (reasonable assumption IMO). Maximal braking is at the
> > pitch-over point where your rear wheel is just about to leave the ground,
> > and cannot possibly contribute any significant amount of braking.
> >
> > Hence at max. braking your rear brake contributes little more than a
> > skidding rear wheel, helping you on your way to losing control.
> >
> > Dani
>
> I'm not disputing your statement. what I'm asking is--if front-wheel
> only braking is maximal, why do the motorcycle guys say to use both
> brakes? Especially considering their maximum speeds are much higher
> than ours...

Because at normal braking rates, you can get good stopping power from
the rears (on both bikes and motorcycles). It's only at near-maximal
braking that the rears become useless.

--
Dave Kerber
Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

[Mark Hickey]

David Kerber > wrote:

says...

>> I'm not disputing your statement. what I'm asking is--if front-wheel
>> only braking is maximal, why do the motorcycle guys say to use both
>> brakes? Especially considering their maximum speeds are much higher
>> than ours...
>
>Because at normal braking rates, you can get good stopping power from
>the rears (on both bikes and motorcycles). It's only at near-maximal
>braking that the rears become useless.

The trouble is that a lot of people rely entirely on the rear brake
since that's "adequate". Then a car pulls out directly in front of
them and they have NO clue about how to stop fast. Either they use
less than maximal braking or they go over the bars.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

[Jonathan]

> I ride with some new-er mtn riders. They are scared ****less about "using
> the front brake and going over the bars." Lent one of them my C-dale last
> night for his night ride and he as much as told me he didn't use the front
> brake 'cause he didn't want to crash. Idiot. Oh well.
>
> Mike
>
>

Don't judge them to harshly. I was scared ****less of the front brake for
years too, mostly because I started riding as a child on a cheap huffy bike
where the cheap caliper breaks barely worked properly on the cheap steel
rims. And the few times I tried the front break, i did nearly go over the
bars, and it scared me because I was riding on hard pavement in a townhouse
complex.

Using the front break *is* scary when you don't know what to expect or
proper techinque.

[David Kerber]

In article >,
says...
> David Kerber > wrote:
>
> says...
>
> >> I'm not disputing your statement. what I'm asking is--if front-wheel
> >> only braking is maximal, why do the motorcycle guys say to use both
> >> brakes? Especially considering their maximum speeds are much higher
> >> than ours...
> >
> >Because at normal braking rates, you can get good stopping power from
> >the rears (on both bikes and motorcycles). It's only at near-maximal
> >braking that the rears become useless.
>
> The trouble is that a lot of people rely entirely on the rear brake
> since that's "adequate". Then a car pulls out directly in front of
> them and they have NO clue about how to stop fast. Either they use
> less than maximal braking or they go over the bars.

Definitely. Since I've been riding more, I have been consciously
forcing myself to use the fronts even for normal planned stops, to
ensure I have an instinctive feel for how much force I can put on them
when I need it.


--
Dave Kerber
Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

[Tokyo-B]

"asqui" > wrote in message >...
> Disclamer: The following discussion is carried out in the context of braking
> on regular, clean, dry, level, road surface in a straight line, for the
> purpose of decelerating from a given velocity to zero velocity in the
> shortest distance possible.


Man - you certainly do ride some boring trails...

[Luigi de Guzman]

(Tokyo-B) wrote in message >...
> "asqui" > wrote in message >...
> > Disclamer: The following discussion is carried out in the context of braking
> > on regular, clean, dry, level, road surface in a straight line, for the
> > purpose of decelerating from a given velocity to zero velocity in the
> > shortest distance possible.
>
>
> Man - you certainly do ride some boring trails...

and *you* certainly don't ride for transport!

the roads are anything but boring.

Especially in the middle of a big city, or in a car-crazy suburb.

I enjoy it though. Kinda like traffic surfing. very zen feeling.

Go play in traffic!

-Luigi