Trials Frame Design Help

[unicyclepa]

I am designing a new trials frame, and i would like some outside input
as it mite one day be for sale. Just tell me what things you do and
dont like in a frame. This is what i came up with so far.


ISO
[image:
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j166/unicyclepa/umm/Picture1.png]

FRONT
[image:
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j166/unicyclepa/umm/Picture2.png]

TOP
[image:
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j166/unicyclepa/umm/Picture3.png]


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[Hazmat]

skrobo wrote:
> if that was titanium, i would love you, seriously, especially if i could
> test it out for ya :)


I think a titanium/carbon fibre would be nice as it would be light as a
feather but stronger, durable and longer lasting than steel. :D
- Another idea would be where the black part is, it could hold
suspensions somehow to withstand high jumps and so forth. :D


BTW can i have it now plz ;) ;)


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[unicyclepa]

Thanks for the input but what thing would you guys change

And the program is auto desk inventor pro 10


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[Spencer Hochberg]

I dont think I would want open tubes coming out of the top, that could
be dangerous.


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[Hazmat]

Add suspensions to the sides of the frame and fuse it with the middle.
It would hold in place by tightening a certain part of the frame. I
don't know if this may damage the frame in the process, but it would be
interesting to see and ride 1 day. :D Also something that could hold
the sides from moving up and down while riding. Like spencer said, i
could be dangerous as it may hit your arms, knees etc.


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[skrobo]

unicyclepa wrote:
> Thanks for the input but what thing would you guys change
>
> And the program is auto desk inventor pro 10


I think you should make the top part in an upside down V shape. It
would be much better in many ways, especially stronger, but don't make
it too much to not put your feet on it well. or maybe make it like the
07 DX frame and angle on bottom, flat on top.


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[Blegas78]

Spencer Hochberg wrote:
> I dont think I would want open tubes coming out of the top, that could
> be dangerous.



I agree. I think you should either seal the tops of the tubes or cut
the flush with the black piece. It might take a little bit away from
the style but then you don't have to worry much about a bad injury or
getting stuff stuck in the tube. Those tubes sticking up would make it
really nice when you put your foot on the frame.

EDIT: Also, if you are serious about selling it someday, then you
might want to make it good for street too, because the market might be
a little small if it was only good for trials.


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[unicyclepa]

OK i made tube caps and for jokes i made it in carbon and ti

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j166/unicyclepa/umm/untitled.jpg][/url]


[i]
>
> EDIT: Also, if you are serious about selling it someday, then you might
> want to make it good for street too, because the market might be a
> little small if it was only good for trials.

i dont ride street. so that makes a good street frame?


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[Hazmat]

ohh you used my idea, thank you if you did ;) I'd love to this on a
coker, 29er or those novelty unicycles one day. That way people don't
have to cut the seatpost to reach the pedals. :D :D


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[Blegas78]

unicyclepa wrote:
>
> i dont ride street. so that makes a good street frame?



Yeah, this design will be. If it was for pure trials then you would
probably want to make where you would normaly put your foot more
angled, this way it doesn't get in the way of your knees and would
prevent some painful falls. because those tubes come to the top, it
should be perfect for street.

I liked the look of the different colors with the green tubes an black
tube connector. Of course this doesn't have anything to do with the
mechanical design.

Also, are you actually going to have this manufactured? I really like
the look of it and I might consider buying one if you do produce them!


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[Evan Byrne]

If you are going for a light frame, ditch the ovalized tubing and go
with square, it puts more metal in the two axis's its needed most, then
you can use thinner wall tubing compared to round or ovalized. That
crown setup is going to be heavy and not as stiff as it could be if you
used some gussets out of tubing or sheet/strip stock running from leg
to crown.


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[skilewis74]

Hazmat wrote:
> Add suspensions to the sides of the frame and fuse it with the middle.
> It would hold in place by tightening a certain part of the frame. I
> don't know if this may damage the frame in the process, but it would be
> interesting to see and ride 1 day. :D Also something that could hold
> the sides from moving up and down while riding. Like spencer said, i
> could be dangerous as it may hit your arms, knees etc.


Having suspention above the axle would have the same effect as a
suspention seatpost. The idea of a fully suspention uni has been
discussed at length 'here' (http://tinyurl.com/25psjp).

Evan wrote:
> Byrne If you are going for a light frame, ditch the ovalized tubing and
> go with square, it puts more metal in the two axes its needed most,
> then you can use thinner wall tubing compared to round or ovalized.
> That crown setup is going to be heavy and not as stiff as it could be
> if you used some gussets out of tubing or sheet/strip stock running
> from leg to crown.


But circular and ovalized legs will resist tortional forces better. I
think eliptical legs, like the ones he has pictured is ideal. Wheather
more oval, round, elliptical, square, or rectangular probably needs
more testing. My money is on elliptical.


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[Evan Byrne]

Yeah but the legs dont get twisted nearly as much as there is a side
load on the frame sideways, which is where square tubing comes into
play.


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[Hazmat]

skilewis74 wrote:
> Having suspention above the axle would have the same effect as a
> suspention seatpost. The idea of a fully suspention uni has been
> discussed at length 'here' (http://tinyurl.com/25psjp).
>


no i mean have a t-bar suspension that goes from left to right and in
the middle and meets halfway. Something like this. It's a odd-drawing
but it explains what i mean.:D :D :D


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Filename: Suspension.JPG |
|Download: http://www.unicyclist.com/attachment/18382 |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+

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[skilewis74]

Evan Byrne wrote:
> Yeah but the legs dont get twisted nearly as much as there is a side
> load on the frame sideways, which is where square tubing comes into
> play.


When jumping you rarely land streight side to side or forward to back,
and almost always at some angle, so rounded sides will take more force
for the given amount of metal. This has been increased in the last few
years in motorcycle disighn.

ie: When Honda came out the new CBR 954 (I think in 2003) They found
the tortional stiffness of the swingarm increased by 25% if they
rounded the corners of it's box tubing.

Look at Ducati's diminance in World Superbike since its inception about
20 years ago. They only use round tubing in their frames.


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[skilewis74]

Hazmat wrote:
> no i mean have a t-bar suspension that goes from left to right and in
> the middle and meets halfway. Something like this. It's a odd-drawing
> but it explains what i mean.:D :D :D


So where is the wheel, what is it directly connected to?


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[Evan Byrne]

I would certainly disagree with your statment about landing straight on
sideways. Watch trials videos, many people land gaps straight sideways.
I think round would be best for the crown because there is a twisting
force on that, but def stick to square on the legs.



skilewis74 wrote:
> When jumping you rarely land streight side to side or forward to back,
> and almost always at some angle, so rounded sides will take more force
> for the given amount of metal. This has been increased in the last few
> years in motorcycle disighn.
>
> ie: When Honda came out the new CBR 954 (I think in 2003) They found
> the tortional stiffness of the swingarm increased by 25% if they
> rounded the corners of it's box tubing.
>
> Look at Ducati's diminance in World Superbike since its inception about
> 20 years ago. They only use round tubing in their frames.


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[skilewis74]

Evan Byrne wrote:
> I would certainly disagree with your statment about landing straight on
> sideways.


But perfectly?

Almost every landing I've seen had some angle to it. Even the ones
where they landed "streight", the angle was like 5-15 degrees. Thats
all it takes over time.

It would be great if it could be tested by a machine to find out what
design works best, but I don't see how it could generate the stresses
in the same way a rider does and all the different riding styles. The
best I think we can hope for is a machine that would very specific
forces in a several specific directions to a series of designs, and all
taken on a test run w/ the same rider testing all designs. Then retest
them to find how stressed/worn those areas are. Find the design that
elliminates all the week spots, and produce that frame. All that may
be too expensive for our small sport though, and just go w/ trial and
error.


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[Evan Byrne]

Not really, its not needed. Kh framees are about as light as anyone is
going to need/want.
skilewis74 wrote:
>
> It would be great if it could be tested by a machine to find out what
> design works best, but I don't see how it could generate the stresses
> in the same way a rider does and all the different riding styles. The
> best I think we can hope for is a machine that would very specific
> forces in a several specific directions to a series of designs, and all
> taken on a test run w/ the same rider testing all designs. Then retest
> them to find how stressed/worn those areas are. Find the design that
> elliminates all the week spots, and produce that frame. All that may
> be too expensive for our small sport though, and just go w/ trial and
> error.


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[iridemymuni]

ive got inventor pro 11 at home, its great !


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[skilewis74]

Evan Byrne wrote:
> Not really, its not needed. Kh framees are about as light as anyone is
> going to need/want.


True, it would be hard to get the frames much lighter. I think a
substantial amount of weight could be saved in the hub and other areas,
but that would be VERY expensive to produce these in low quantities,
frames are easier.

Edit: Isn't the KH 20 frame something like 1.2 lbs?


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[Hazmat]

skilewis74 wrote:
> So where is the wheel, what is it directly connected to?


Oh i didn't add the wheel because obviously it would be connected to
the wheel. My bad. :D :D :D :D


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[brendan]

the only problem i see with that frame is the fact there is no
originality to it.

I mean it looks pretty much like a nimbus II/devil crmo or qu-ax trials
frame.

How are you gonna join the two metals/carbon and Ti together?

Also why not make it go in at the top so the frame is abit wider at the
bottom so you dont hit your ankles.

also i think a long neck trials frame would be awesome, why not make
yours a long neck frame?


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[saam]

skilewis74 wrote:
> But perfectly?
>
> Almost every landing I've seen had some angle to it. Even the ones
> where they landed "streight", the angle was like 5-15 degrees. Thats
> all it takes over time.
>
> It would be great if it could be tested by a machine to find out what
> design works best, but I don't see how it could generate the stresses
> in the same way a rider does and all the different riding styles. The
> best I think we can hope for is a machine that would very specific
> forces in a several specific directions to a series of designs, and all
> taken on a test run w/ the same rider testing all designs. Then retest
> them to find how stressed/worn those areas are. Find the design that
> elliminates all the week spots, and produce that frame. All that may
> be too expensive for our small sport though, and just go w/ trial and
> error.



Once you have a good 3D model and have a rough idea about the forces
you could put it in a 'FEA'
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_element_analysis) program. The
forces don't have to be accurate but the direction does. If you put
say 5 times the force on the frame but in the correct dirrection it
will give you a pretty colourfull picture showing the high stress/weak
points (weak points are weak points, no matter what the magnitude of
the force is).

This is how i designed my BC plates. I put holes in all the low stress
areas to cut down on weight. They will yeild (bend and not bend back)
once you have ~80kg of downward force on one plate. I also used the
FEA program to see how much the plates would flex downward and angled
them up (like evan's plates) to compensate.


Sam


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[brendan]

wow i so didnt know you coul do that. Thats awesome :D

i'm gonna have to do this for a few of my projects. and for a bc plate
that is like idea i guess like you said.


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[johnfoss]

unicyclepa wrote:
> OK i made tube caps and for jokes i made it in carbon and ti


What was it made out of before you joked it into carbon and Ti? In
other words, there isn't much one can comment on the design unless we
know what it's to be made out of, and how those parts are to be
attached to each other.


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[roland]

Looks like you're going for something like the Pichler Solo - 'Here'
(http://www.pichlerrad.de/de01.htm) but with a different bearing cap
arrangement - one nice feature of the pichler crown is that it is
machined so that there is a lip for the fork legs & seat tube to sit up
against - this means that its easy to align the the fork legs so that
the hub sits square in the bearings and also its harder for the legs to
slip under load or if the bolts should come loose - I'll post some
pictures of mine later if that helps

Roland


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[Jerrick]

brendan wrote:
>
> also i think a long neck trials frame would be awesome, why not make
> yours a long neck frame?



It would be good for SIF trials riders, but having a long neck trials
frame would really limit the riders who only do Seat-in.


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[brendan]

i know it would not be good for some people, but at least it would be
abit original, + i really want a long neck trials frame :D
and a frame will never be good for everyone...


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[Jerrick]

brendan wrote:
> i know it would not be good for some people, but at least it would be
> abit original, + i really want a long neck trials frame :D
> and a frame will never be good for everyone...




Yeah, a long neck frame would still be awesome to have.

ID just have to cut my frame lower instead my seatpost, specially cause
my seat post will only be about 2 inches long.


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[unicyclepa]

> What was it made out of before you joked it into carbon and Ti? In other
> words, there isn't much one can comment on the design unless we know
> what it's to be made out of, and how those parts are to be attached to
> each other.
> Today 02:53 AM



ITs really gona be aluminum welded at the crown


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[Hazmat]

Well what you make it out of, i'm pretty sure it's going to be awesome.
reagrdless of the materials used to make it. ;) :D

Hope it works out for you my friend
Hazmat


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[Blegas78]

I agree with the idea of making it a long neck, because it wouldn't
really be that hard to cut down short. The cut may not be as pretty,
but it can easily be covered up with the right clamp.


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[Blegas78]

brendan wrote:
> the only problem i see with that frame is the fact there is no
> originality to it.



Well there's only so much you can do to make a frame look different
from the others. The only way to add creativity is to change the
connection between all of the tubes. A square tube frame might make it
look a little more interesting, but round tubes are more appealing to
me in terms of style. I think this one looks different enough from the
other frames out there.

I really like the connection on the Koxx-One XTP frame, except it isn't
very good for street/freestyle. I would like to see a beefy CNC
machined connection piece but made better for street.:D


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[francisco]

looks good... though... will it work?

for you to design something to be comercialized you should think if
it`s possible to produce it in a large scale. that crown you made...
have you think about if it`s possible to make those radius out of..
what? tubes? do you know the material you`re talking about? wouldn`t it
be week because it`s made of so many pieces? you could always make a
mold to produce that in one piece.. but it costs a lot... would someone
bet in this project?

there are a lots of points to think about before you go sketching stuff
up on maya...


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[unicyclepa]

> looks good... though... will it work?
>
> for you to design something to be comercialized you should think if
> it`s possible to produce it in a large scale. that crown you made...
> have you think about if it`s possible to make those radius out of..
> what? tubes? do you know the material you`re talking about? wouldn`t it
> be week because it`s made of so many pieces? you could always make a
> mold to produce that in one piece.. but it costs a lot... would someone
> bet in this project?
>
> there are a lots of points to think about before you go sketching stuff
> up on maya...



the crown is one peace. the lines show fillets. It will be machined out
of a billet of aluminum
ok?


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[Blegas78]

unicyclepa wrote:
> It will be machined out of a billet of aluminum



How much will that cost with machine time and materials? Then how much
would the whole frame cost with the tubes and everything?

Also, to make it a little bit better for street, you might want to add
little ridges on top of the tubes to grip onto your feet a little
better. Not really necessary though, I like it plain on top.


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better than nothing, therefore a ham sandwich is better than eternal
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[Evan Byrne]

Machined solid crown = yeck. Tubes FTW.


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[unicyclepa]

> Machined solid crown = yeck. Tubes FTW.


its hard to do something deferent with tubes



> How much will that cost with machine time and materials? Then how much
> would the whole frame cost with the tubes and everything?


crown machining will be free hopefully (i am doing it) and i dont know
about material cost yet

and i have a new design i like more and i think it will be stronger

[image:
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j166/unicyclepa/umm/Picture4.jpg]
[image:
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j166/unicyclepa/umm/Picture5.jpg]
[image:
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j166/unicyclepa/umm/Picture6.jpg]


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[Evan Byrne]

Well with tubes i think you would get close to the same result, its way
easier to deal with and its cheaper. I like the crown extending down
the insides of the legs though, that will add more stiffness, I would
make them extend a little bit more though, like half an inch. That will
make it crazy stiff.


--
Evan Byrne
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[skrobo]

and make the bars going across the outside thicker, especially the top
one, as it will get beaten down and worn away rather quickly.


--
skrobo

><> Unicycle For Christ <><

____________________________________________
-last edited by \"elvisunifreak\" at 8:35 pm -
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[Blegas78]

skrobo wrote:
> make the bars going across the outside thicker



Yes, I recommend this, but might as well do both sides so they match.
You will also want to consider where you weld the tubes to the crown,
if that's what your plan is.


--
Blegas78

Nothing is better than than eternal happiness, and a ham sandwich is
better than nothing, therefore a ham sandwich is better than eternal
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[joemarshall]

That crown looks a bit thin between the legs and the top tube. Also
you're holding the legs on with two tiny pieces of aluminium, that
looks weak.

Also it isn't obvious how you're clamping the parts in, are you welding
them in or something.

Oh and the bottom of the top tube, surely that's where you get most
stress on a frame, at least it's where frames seem to snap, your design
looks very un-beefy at that point.

Joe


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[unicyclepa]

> and make the bars going across the outside thicker, especially the top
> one, as it will get beaten down and worn away rather quickly.


From what ? and that hole will be fully welded. so the parts going
around realy are not even needed



> Oh and the bottom of the top tube, surely that's where you get most
> stress on a frame, at least it's where frames seem to snap, your design
> looks very un-beefy at that point.



No my connection is much stronger than a kh frame and i have only seen
one of them break


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www.unicyclepa.com
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[Blegas78]

joemarshall wrote:
>
> Oh and the bottom of the top tube, surely that's where you get most
> stress on a frame, at least it's where frames seem to snap, your design
> looks very un-beefy at that point.



I think this design for the top tube might be a little bit stronger
because rather than the tob tube connecting to the crown with just two
pieces of sheet metal like if it were welded to a tube tha was cut out,
this crown comes into contact everywhere where the tube is inside the
crown.


--
Blegas78

Nothing is better than than eternal happiness, and a ham sandwich is
better than nothing, therefore a ham sandwich is better than eternal
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[Evan Byrne]

Bikes have top tubes, Unicycles have necks/seat tubes. Use the right
terms people.


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[Blegas78]

Evan Byrne wrote:
> Bikes have top tubes, Unicycles have necks. Use the right terms people.



Oops, thanks for correcting me.


--
Blegas78

Nothing is better than than eternal happiness, and a ham sandwich is
better than nothing, therefore a ham sandwich is better than eternal
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[francisco]

unicyclepa wrote:
> the crown is one peace. the lines show fillets. It will be machined out
> of a billet of aluminum
> ok?



and the aluminum crown will be welded to what material? do you have a
TIG weld machine? they cost A LOT...

and I don`t think a machined crown would be compensatory in a large
scale.

don`t want to put this thing down... it`s just that design about
solving problems. I`m showing you some problems here.


--
francisco

###UNICYLE FOR JAH RASTAFARI###

BH PIRATA MONOCREW
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[Hazmat]

I wonder what the final design, the concept or production form would
look like?? :confused: :D :D


--
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[Blegas78]

francisco wrote:
> and the aluminum crown will be welded to what material? do you have a
> TIG weld machine? they cost A LOT...



I think that if has the access to use a CNC machine for free, then I
have a feeling that he might be able to use a TIG welder as well.


--
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Nothing is better than than eternal happiness, and a ham sandwich is
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"Rock Out Loud Yo!" -kid from Paper Bag Over the Head advertisement
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[unicyclepa]

> and the aluminum crown will be welded to what material? do you have a
> TIG weld machine? they cost A LOT...
>
> and I don`t think a machined crown would be compensatory in a large
> scale.
>
> don`t want to put this thing down... it`s just that design about
> solving problems. I`m showing you some problems here.



I have access to a $70,000 cnc and used a 1,000ish $ program to design
it. i know what I am doing, and know people that will weld it for
almost nothing.

The frame was never meant for large scale production. I was planing on
building just 30-40 or enough to cover the material cost


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www.unicyclepa.com
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[Danni]

If this was made of Ti, I would be seriously interested.


--
Danni

leo wrote:
> Without cocks you wouldn't even have a family forum.


'Pile Driver' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmXflM7xVLs) 'Jack Ass'
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6U1xH6MtNM)
'Russian Climber'
(http://tinyurl.com/p6vnc) 'Urban Ninja Part 1'
(http://tinyurl.com/2m5o2h) 'Part 2'
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9nVENReGBY)
'-->Trials Uni For Sale!'
(http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57107)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[unicyclepa]

How much would you pay ?


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www.unicyclepa.com
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[gerblefranklin]

Unicyclepa, kudos for making drawings. I am honestly impressed with
those drawings. I have spent about 3 hours on solidworks 11 trying to
make drawings of parts orders of magnitude simpler than those, and had
far less success. I have vectorworks 12 architect and basic, but I'm
still figuring out if I can do stuff like what you did without the
machine design element.

Does the program you used work on a mac?

Be honest--How much experience do you have programming and running VMCs
(Vertical machining Centers for those who wonder)? This is a very
complicated part to be running as a beginner. The computer program will
make mistakes and you need to be able to read the g-code (the code that
the machine understands) in order to find them.

A $70K VMC is cheap on the scale of things, however I honestly wonder
what kind of machinist will let a 16 year old run a program on his VMC
(nothing against you, but if you crash that machine, that can literally
mean bankruptcy for the shop). I am working at a cnc machine shop this
summer, and they have one turning center and one VMC. It will be 2-3
months before I run a program on either.

I'm not trying to bring you down here, but there are bunch of serious
problems with this design from a manufacturing perspective. I don't
have time to list them all, but to start:

1. On the latest drawing, those little fingers that go around the
ovalized tube will be obliterated by any welding. You may as well just
skip them entirely, and have someone weld a bead around the tube.

2. Those little bits that go round the leg tubes are very weak until
there is a tube supporting them. They will almost certainly deform when
you machine them, unless you take precious light cuts (something you
should research. There's a big difference between the forces from a
0.050" cut and a 0.005" cut, and you will need to learn it as the
programmer). Once again, either lose the bits or make a fixture to
support them during machining.

3. You are calling out what appear to fillets and radii on nearly every
edge. Radiusing the bottom edge is a waste of time. You need to think
about ways to minimize the number of times you put the part into and
remove it from the machine. If you can get around machining the bottom
of the crown, by all means do it. That will save you a machine cycle.

4. You should think about the fact that you cannot (easily) make sharp
corners in a lot of places. An endmill leaves a radiused profile when
it side-cuts into a corner, which is actually good for you here. You
don't want sharp corners where one member meets another, since those
are where you will get stress fractures.

Good luck, and once again, mad props for even getting this far. Before
you go run that VMC, I recommend that you spend 10 or twenty hours on a
manual lathe and bridgeport to get a feel for what kind of cuts yhou
should be taking. Programming a machine cycle isn't easy, which is why
people who do it make $40-50 and hour.


--
gerblefranklin

http://gallery.unicyclist.com/Trials-Muni

Nick's main man.

"I love freedom dearly, ideally, in theory, but in reality we're not
there yet--Not nearly."--Cold Duck Complex
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[Evan Byrne]

Yo Bev' whats your vote on square vs round/ovalized tubing? (You can
read the argument couple pages back)


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[Danni]

unicyclepa wrote:
> How much would you pay ?


You'd come up with a price. I would pay $600 max + the guarantee and
life time warantee that it wouldn't break.


--
Danni

leo wrote:
> Without cocks you wouldn't even have a family forum.


'Pile Driver' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmXflM7xVLs) 'Jack Ass'
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6U1xH6MtNM)
'Russian Climber'
(http://tinyurl.com/p6vnc) 'Urban Ninja Part 1'
(http://tinyurl.com/2m5o2h) 'Part 2'
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9nVENReGBY)
'-->Trials Uni For Sale!'
(http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57107)
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[gerblefranklin]

Ovalized tubing. While the box tube puts more material farther out, the
oval puts the material farther away, getting you more strength per unit
volume. You're talking almost no difference in performance, however.
For transmitting moment (torsion) by all means the oval is stronger. If
you want a conclusive answer, i can look at an engineering textbook.

From a manufacturing perspective, ovalized, absolutely. It would be
painfully difficult to make the rectangular holes for the fork legs
with an endmill. You'd need special tooling.


--
gerblefranklin

http://gallery.unicyclist.com/Trials-Muni

Nick's main man.

"I love freedom dearly, ideally, in theory, but in reality we're not
there yet--Not nearly."--Cold Duck Complex
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[unicyclepa]

Thank you gerblefranklin for giving me my first useful feed back it will
all be taken into consideration it my future designs. Now i will try to
ancer some of your questions.



> Does the program you used work on a mac?


No (but i am using a mac to post this)



> Be honest--How much experience do you have programming and running VMCs
> (Vertical machining Centers for those who wonder)? This is a very
> complicated part to be running as a beginner. The computer program will
> make mistakes and you need to be able to read the g-code (the code that
> the machine understands) in order to find them.


I have i fair amount of practice making simpler things like soap molds
and such. However my teacher is a certified edgecam (the program i use
for making code) instructor so he know just about everything. I am also
well versed in most g and m code.



> A $70K VMC is cheap on the scale of things, however I honestly wonder
> what kind of machinist will let a 16 year old run a program on his VMC
> (nothing against you, but if you crash that machine, that can literally
> mean bankruptcy for the shop). I am working at a cnc machine shop this
> summer, and they have one turning center and one VMC. It will be 2-3
> months before I run a program on either.


My school will and i have already run many less complicated programs



> 1. On the latest drawing, those little fingers that go around the
> ovalized tube will be obliterated by any welding. You may as well just
> skip them entirely, and have someone weld a bead around the tube.


good point i had not even thought about that



> 3. You are calling out what appear to fillets and radii on nearly every
> edge. Radiusing the bottom edge is a waste of time. You need to think
> about ways to minimize the number of times you put the part into and
> remove it from the machine. If you can get around machining the bottom
> of the crown, by all means do it. That will save you a machine cycle.


I already deleted most of the fillets


Thanks for your help. Now its time for some redesign


--
unicyclepa

www.unicyclepa.com
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[gerblefranklin]

Unicyclepa,

The materials you are calling out are cheap. My advice to you is go to
some local machine shops, and bring prints of your drawings, including
notes. Explain what you will be doing and how you plan to do it.
Tolerate any "advice" the machinists give you (chances are, actually, a
decent amount of it will be good stuff), and then ask them if they
might have any drops around the shop that you might be able to take for
your project.

I did the above, and got a 2"x5"x22" chunk of 6061-T6, as well as a
.5"x24"x24" chunk of the same, and enough tubing for three seat tubes.
Total cost: $30.

One other thing is that you will need to figure out a way to reference
the location of the bearing holders relative to the crown. They must be
-exactly- the same distance from the crown (we're talking within around
0.005", so it could be much worse. I'm currently making an engine where
the cylinder bore has tolerances of -0.0000"/+0.0001"). Any error
misaligning the bearing holders will manifest itself as a wheel that
does not ride straight in the frame. The easiest way to assure
alignment is to make each leg and weld it to the bearing holders first
(carefully keeping alignment, and minimizing the distortion due to
heat). Then make measurements of each leg (they can be relative, so try
just mounting an indicator with a stop on a surface plate... any
machinist should be able to figure this out). Trim the longer one to
the same length as the shorter one, and then tack weld each one flush
with the top of the crown. Then use a small rawhide or rubber mallet to
tune the alignment, tack weld and tune some more, then do the final
welds.


--
gerblefranklin

http://gallery.unicyclist.com/Trials-Muni

Nick's main man.

"I love freedom dearly, ideally, in theory, but in reality we're not
there yet--Not nearly."--Cold Duck Complex
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[Evan Byrne]

I think you have slightly exaggerated the torlerance of leg length.
Though yes its nice to be perfect, but do you really think a frame like
a yuni or bedford is that exact? They still work fine.
gerblefranklin wrote:
> Unicyclepa,
>
> The materials you are calling out are cheap. My advice to you is go to
> some local machine shops, and bring prints of your drawings, including
> notes. Explain what you will be doing and how you plan to do it.
> Tolerate any "advice" the machinists give you (chances are, actually, a
> decent amount of it will be good stuff), and then ask them if they
> might have any drops around the shop that you might be able to take for
> your project.
>
> I did the above, and got a 2"x5"x22" chunk of 6061-T6, as well as a
> .5"x24"x24" chunk of the same, and enough tubing for three seat tubes.
> Total cost: $30.
>
> One other thing is that you will need to figure out a way to reference
> the location of the bearing holders relative to the crown. They must be
> -exactly- the same distance from the crown (we're talking within around
> 0.005", so it could be much worse. I'm currently making an engine where
> the cylinder bore has tolerances of -0.0000"/+0.0001"). Any error
> misaligning the bearing holders will manifest itself as a wheel that
> does not ride straight in the frame. The easiest way to assure
> alignment is to make each leg and weld it to the bearing holders first
> (carefully keeping alignment, and minimizing the distortion due to
> heat). Then make measurements of each leg (they can be relative, so try
> just mounting an indicator with a stop on a surface plate... any
> machinist should be able to figure this out). Trim the longer one to
> the same length as the shorter one, and then tack weld each one flush
> with the top of the crown. Then use a small rawhide or rubber mallet to
> tune the alignment, tack weld and tune some more, then do the final
> welds.


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[saskatchewanian]

Evan Byrne wrote:
> I think you have slightly exaggerated the torlerance of leg length.
> Though yes its nice to be perfect, but do you really think a frame like
> a yuni or bedford is that exact? They still work fine.



i have two coke can shims on the left side of my Yuni MUni they are
each less than .005" thick. The difference is noticeable on the 26"
wheel when tire clearance is an issue. tolarences for a smaller
(trials) wheel would probably be larger but not all that much.


--
saskatchewanian

“Today you are You, that is truer than true. There is no one alive who
is Youer than You.” - Dr. Seuss
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[unicyclepa]

> Unicyclepa,
>
> The materials you are calling out are cheap. My advice to you is go to
> some local machine shops, and bring prints of your drawings, including
> notes. Explain what you will be doing and how you plan to do it.
> Tolerate any "advice" the machinists give you (chances are, actually, a
> decent amount of it will be good stuff), and then ask them if they
> might have any drops around the shop that you might be able to take for
> your project.



My grandfather use to own the only machine shop in my town. he also
knows the current owner so i think im gona take my plans up there with
him and see what they can do for me

once aghan thanks for the help i really hope this happens


--
unicyclepa

www.unicyclepa.com
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but its all good
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[gerblefranklin]

Evan, you may be right, however on my first frame, I just got them
within ~1/64, and the had to mess with stacks of shims, which is a
pain.

saskatchewanian: Coke cans are exactly 0.005" thick. I have one in
front of me, and I use coke cans for 0.005" shim stock in my machine
shop all the time. But yes, my experiences with those shims is why I
said it matters. I've had to shim every frame I own, which has always
sucked.


--
gerblefranklin

http://gallery.unicyclist.com/Trials-Muni

Nick's main man.

"I love freedom dearly, ideally, in theory, but in reality we're not
there yet--Not nearly."--Cold Duck Complex
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[unicyclepa]

I did some reworking of the crown. Its now 10 mm taller and the leg
retention supports where extended by 5 mm. Also all fillets where
removed (i like it better without them).

according to inventor without welds it weighs 462g when built of Al
6061 (kh is like 560 I think)

Updated ISO
[image:
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j166/unicyclepa/umm/FRAME.jpg]


--
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www.unicyclepa.com
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[Blegas78]

I know that in solidworks you can put stress tests on it to figure out
where the weak points are and how much force is needed to break
whatever you're making. Can you do the same with the program you're
using?


--
Blegas78

Nothing is better than than eternal happiness, and a ham sandwich is
better than nothing, therefore a ham sandwich is better than eternal
happiness.

"Rock Out Loud Yo!" -kid from Paper Bag Over the Head advertisement
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[henkka]

unicyclepa wrote:
> according to inventor without welds it weighs 462g when built of Al 6061
> (kh is like 560 I think)


KH -07 frames are 7005 T6 Aluminium.


--
henkka
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[recommanded poster]

i think it would make this frame stronger
[image: http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/3303/framedf4.jpg]

sorry for the quality, it's Paint work


--
recommanded poster

samiaul who want good speak english!!
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[brendan]

that definately looks sweet, and it would be awesome to see it made. I
really like the crown defo looks awesome. DO you recon you'll make it
bi-colour?


--
brendan
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[unicyclepa]

> i think it would make this frame stronger

theres no need for it to be stronger. Have you ever seen a frame break
there?



> DO you recon you'll make it bi-colour?

if they do get made color will probably be up to the buyer.


--
unicyclepa

www.unicyclepa.com
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[gordito8me]

look into this rigid mtb fork it might give you an idea for the designs.
just a thought. http://tinyurl.com/28yg8l


--
gordito8me

29er or 36er? can't decide
either way I have like 54 bucks so nothing too great.
radial 360 or nimbus 29er????
helllpppp!!!!
helllpppp!!!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[uni.rider.13]

That's turning out way cool. I think you should end up painting it in
the colors that are in the last pic.


--
uni.rider.13

Some people call me nuts for riding, other people call me no
nuts.:confused:

My 'Gallery!!!!!!!!!!!!!' (http://tinyurl.com/y3k57x)

Hey!!! Go and see my new website. 'unicycleaustin.741.com'
(http://unicycleaustin.741.com/index.html)
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[CKCrowe]

how much would this unicycle be?


--
CKCrowe

broken seat :( working on backflips and double flips once i get a new
seat. 1-5 hours a day of unicycling!
DX user.
Learning BC!
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[unicyclepa]

> how much would this unicycle be?


$200ish



> I think you should end up painting it in the colors that are in the last
> pic.

each frame will be custom


--
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www.unicyclepa.com
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but its all good
team YAMS member in your sig or title and say
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[Chris.James]

thats actually a good price, provided that the frame is good and strong.
After all the kh trials frame is 199. If these are custom made and
weigh less, then that is a good price


--
Chris.James

"Thats my favorite thing about unicycling, I can eat oreos while
riding!" ~Me


dforbes wrote:
> Well, boys and girls, this is what separates us from the gods; Kris goes
> riding and has to worry about landing on naked ladies - you and I have
> to watch we don't land in dog poop.....
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[unicyclepa]

mabr 250 with a life time warranty


--
unicyclepa

www.unicyclepa.com
we suck
but its all good
team YAMS member in your sig or title and say
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[tunkie]

if it got the lifetime warranty im buying it.


--
tunkie

Blegas78 wrote:
> I'm makin a movie with my girlfriend and I'm going to land some fresh
> combos for it as well as an invented trick hopefully, woohoo!
> Chris.James wrote:
> > wow, that could be interpreted really badly
>
>
>



http://youtube.com/profile?user=unitrials

http://www.misterpoll.com/568933725.html
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[tunkie]

if you start producing will they be ready be next xmas?


--
tunkie

Blegas78 wrote:
> I'm makin a movie with my girlfriend and I'm going to land some fresh
> combos for it as well as an invented trick hopefully, woohoo!
> Chris.James wrote:
> > wow, that could be interpreted really badly
>
>
>



http://youtube.com/profile?user=unitrials

http://www.misterpoll.com/568933725.html
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[unicyclepa]

> if you start producing will they be ready be next xmas?

i hope


--
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www.unicyclepa.com
we suck
but its all good
team YAMS member in your sig or title and say
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[tunkie]

Do kh frames have a life warranty. Also how will you sell them?


--
tunkie

Blegas78 wrote:
> I'm makin a movie with my girlfriend and I'm going to land some fresh
> combos for it as well as an invented trick hopefully, woohoo!
> Chris.James wrote:
> > wow, that could be interpreted really badly
>
>
>



http://youtube.com/profile?user=unitrials

http://www.misterpoll.com/568933725.html
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[bawls44]

tunkie wrote:
> Do kh frames have a life warranty.



Is that a question?


--
bawls44

Shaun Johanneson is the ****.
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[unicyclepa]

> Do kh frames have a life warranty. Also how will you sell them?



NO

And dose aneyone know the tube thickness on the kh


--
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www.unicyclepa.com
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[gerblefranklin]

Chris.James wrote:
> thats actually a good price, provided that the frame is good and strong.
> After all the kh trials frame is 199. If these are custom made and
> weigh less, then that is a good price



Chris James, you must know squat about what it takes to make a frame. A
good price? KH frames are made by workers in Taiwan doing labor for
**** poor wages (by American standards) on production machinery. They
make hundreds of them at a time. Before you go talk about price, read
the wiki on economies of scale, then report back. Then, after that, go
try to weld aluminum without a production jig setup. Then go setup a
cnc machining center. Then come back and say $200 is a good price. $500
is more like it.

On that note, Unicyclepa, I strongly recommend that you ignore those
who are asking about things like ship-dates or paint schemes right now.
Focus on your design. See the construction of one of these through to
the VERY END before you go out and sell it. Get some time riding on it
even. Not because you can't sell it, you certainly can, but there's no
better thing to take the fun out of work than a deadline. Furthermore,
all estimates are up in the air once you actually start making parts.

I'm pretty sure that the KH frame legs are ~0.090" thick, if not more.
I wish I would've measured when I welded that one frame back together.


--
gerblefranklin

http://gallery.unicyclist.com/Trials-Muni

Nick's main man.

"I love freedom dearly, ideally, in theory, but in reality we're not
there yet--Not nearly."--Cold Duck Complex
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[zfreak220]

gerblefranklin wrote:
> Chris James, you must know squat about what it takes to make a frame. A
> good price? KH frames are made by workers in Taiwan doing labor for
> **** poor wages (by American standards) on production machinery. They
> make hundreds of them at a time. Before you go talk about price, read
> the wiki on economies of scale, then report back. Then, after that, go
> try to weld aluminum without a production jig setup. Then go setup a
> cnc machining center. Then come back and say $200 is a good price. $500
> is more like it.
>
> On that note, Unicyclepa, I strongly recommend that you ignore those
> who are asking about things like ship-dates or paint schemes right now.
> Focus on your design. See the construction of one of these through to
> the VERY END before you go out and sell it. Get some time riding on it
> even. Not because you can't sell it, you certainly can, but there's no
> better thing to take the fun out of work than a deadline. Furthermore,
> all estimates are up in the air once you actually start making parts.
>
> I'm pretty sure that the KH frame legs are ~0.090" thick, if not more.
> I wish I would've measured when I welded that one frame back together.


--
zfreak220

iridemymuni wrote:
> i think everybody agrees when i say you lucky son of a bitch



howdigetsogood wrote:
> man i used to think scooters were totally lame, but after that 'video'
> (http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57071), oh wait
> nevermind i still do.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Chris.James]

gerblefranklin wrote:
> Chris James, you must know squat about what it takes to make a frame.


Your right, i don't


--
Chris.James

"Thats my favorite thing about unicycling, I can eat oreos while
riding!" ~Me


dforbes wrote:
> Well, boys and girls, this is what separates us from the gods; Kris goes
> riding and has to worry about landing on naked ladies - you and I have
> to watch we don't land in dog poop.....
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[unicyclepa]

> KH frames are made by workers in Taiwan doing labor for **** poor wages
> (by American standards) on production machinery. They make hundreds of
> them at a time.


That is exactly what i dont want. I want these frames to be hand made
and almost one off. The whole reason this project started was because i
wanted an alternative to the hundreds of "made in china" frames. But gf
is right I am getting ahead of myself. I hope to build and sell these
frames but as of now many things are still up in the air.


--
unicyclepa

www.unicyclepa.com
we suck
but its all good
team YAMS member in your sig or title and say
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[gerblefranklin]

Unicyclepa, good for you. Handmade though? Not much that can be done to
customize a part that is run off of the same VMC out of the same metal
with the same program each cycle :-P. You'll find a way, though.

I gotta say, I wish I had your skills in a CAD/CAM program (and a 5
axis 50 tool changer VMC, for that matter). I spent 6 hours today at a
manual bridgeport working on a part that would take a run of the mill
VMC around 10 mintues.


--
gerblefranklin

http://gallery.unicyclist.com/Trials-Muni

Nick's main man.

"I love freedom dearly, ideally, in theory, but in reality we're not
there yet--Not nearly."--Cold Duck Complex
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[unicyclepa]

> I gotta say, I wish I had your skills in a CAD/CAM program (and a 5 axis
> 50 tool changer VMC, for that matter). I spent 6 hours today at a
> manual bridgeport working on a part that would take a run of the mill
> VMC around 10 mintues.



The only reason i have skills is because of my amazing teck teachers.
there soo good. i couldint get through school without 2 periods of
technology classes ah day (digital electronics, and computer integrated
manufacturing). Also my school has the best teck department in the
state.


--
unicyclepa

www.unicyclepa.com
we suck
but its all good
team YAMS member in your sig or title and say
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[Danni]

How much would a Ti frame cost?


--
Danni

leo wrote:
> Without cocks you wouldn't even have a family forum.


'Pile Driver' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmXflM7xVLs) 'Jack Ass'
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6U1xH6MtNM)
'Russian Climber'
(http://tinyurl.com/p6vnc) 'Urban Ninja Part 1'
(http://tinyurl.com/2m5o2h) 'Part 2'
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9nVENReGBY)
'-->Trials Uni For Sale!'
(http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57107)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[unicyclepa]

Lots and lots and lots


--
unicyclepa

www.unicyclepa.com
we suck
but its all good
team YAMS member in your sig or title and say
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Danni]

Thanks for the specifics!


--
Danni

leo wrote:
> Without cocks you wouldn't even have a family forum.


'Pile Driver' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmXflM7xVLs) 'Jack Ass'
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6U1xH6MtNM)
'Russian Climber'
(http://tinyurl.com/p6vnc) 'Urban Ninja Part 1'
(http://tinyurl.com/2m5o2h) 'Part 2'
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9nVENReGBY)
'-->Trials Uni For Sale!'
(http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57107)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[unicyclepa]

$1500 in cash


--
unicyclepa

www.unicyclepa.com
we suck
but its all good
team YAMS member in your sig or title and say
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[Danni]

:eek:

That's a bit steep?


--
Danni

leo wrote:
> Without cocks you wouldn't even have a family forum.


'Pile Driver' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmXflM7xVLs) 'Jack Ass'
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6U1xH6MtNM)
'Russian Climber'
(http://tinyurl.com/p6vnc) 'Urban Ninja Part 1'
(http://tinyurl.com/2m5o2h) 'Part 2'
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9nVENReGBY)
'-->Trials Uni For Sale!'
(http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57107)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[unicyclepa]

I realy have no idea of a price as a prototype has not even been built
yet.
I also doubt it will ever get built in ti


--
unicyclepa

www.unicyclepa.com
we suck
but its all good
team YAMS member in your sig or title and say
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[ntappin]

unicyclepa wrote:
> I realy have no idea of a price as a prototype has not even been built
> yet.
> I also doubt it will ever get built in ti



You can already get a hand made miyata ti frame. Just check out the
miyata website.


--
ntappin

'how to build a strong comfy saddle from junk.'
(http://tinyurl.com/hxcb3)
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[Danni]

link?


--
Danni

leo wrote:
> Without cocks you wouldn't even have a family forum.


'Pile Driver' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmXflM7xVLs) 'Jack Ass'
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6U1xH6MtNM)
'Russian Climber'
(http://tinyurl.com/p6vnc) 'Urban Ninja Part 1'
(http://tinyurl.com/2m5o2h) 'Part 2'
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9nVENReGBY)
'-->Trials Uni For Sale!'
(http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57107)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[skilewis74]

Danni wrote:
> How much would a Ti frame cost?


Those Ti unis Bedford made for Dan and Zack were $800 (whole uni or
just frame?)
Some handmade steel frames:
DM Vortex $640
Hunter $412
KH pro 36" $589


--
skilewis74
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[skilewis74]

ntappin wrote:
> You can already get a hand made miyata ti frame. Just check out the
> miyata website.


Unless the price changedin the last four months, it's $800 for the
whole uni, depending on exchange rates and plus shipping (and
tarriffs?)


--
skilewis74
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[skilewis74]

Danni wrote:
> link?


http://tinyurl.com/h3sq5
$80,000 yen, $686.11 at current exchange rates.
And that's a production frame only customised by neck length.


--
skilewis74
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[ntappin]

I said it was hand made, not custom made.

I'm talking about the frame that comes on this,
http://tinyurl.com/ys9abt. I don't know if you can get the frame
seperately but you can get 'this' (http://tinyurl.com/2njxgs) or 'this'
(http://tinyurl.com/22bod4) and ask them for the widest crown and most
amount of clearance aswell as whatever length of post you want.



> Upper shoulder can be arranged by 10mm segments. Tire space: 5mm, 10mm,
> 15mm, 20mm, and 25mm. Shoulder width: 90mm, 95mm, 100mm, 105mm, and
> 110mm..


--
ntappin

'how to build a strong comfy saddle from junk.'
(http://tinyurl.com/hxcb3)
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[skilewis74]

ntappin
They have a 'trials ' (http://tinyurl.com/ys9abt)uni: joint Monty and
Miyata 105,400 yen, $904.57 I don't see just the frame anywhere.

The uni Dan and Zack rode in Defect had lollypop bearings like this
one, but I believe a flat crown.


--
skilewis74
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[unicyclepa]

The wheels have been set into motion


--
unicyclepa

www.unicyclepa.com
we suck
but its all good
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[zfreak220]

were you sure to grease the bearings so that they spin nice in smooth?


--
zfreak220

iridemymuni wrote:
> i think everybody agrees when i say you lucky son of a bitch



howdigetsogood wrote:
> man i used to think scooters were totally lame, but after that 'video'
> (http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57071), oh wait
> nevermind i still do.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[unicyclepa]

Oh yes

it gona be nice


--
unicyclepa

www.unicyclepa.com
we suck
but its all good
team YAMS member in your sig or title and say
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[unicyclepa]

Can you buy oval tube anywhere because i cant seem to find any


--
unicyclepa

www.unicyclepa.com
we suck
but its all good
team YAMS member in your sig or title and say
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[madmattunipro]

Miyata should stick to freestyle unicycles. Those frames are kinda ugly,
and the bearing system is outdated.

Unicyclepa, you are my hero:D I really hope things go as well as you
plan, it's great so see others who have ambitions to build good custom
unicycles. Keep us posted on your progress(and pictures would be
great!)


--
madmattunipro

><>Unicycle For Christ<><

www.bedfordunicycles.ca

http://www.norco.com
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[zfreak220]

http://tinyurl.com/3cu6ar

closest i could find


--
zfreak220

iridemymuni wrote:
> i think everybody agrees when i say you lucky son of a bitch



howdigetsogood wrote:
> man i used to think scooters were totally lame, but after that 'video'
> (http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57071), oh wait
> nevermind i still do.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[unicyclepa]

i may have to go round


--
unicyclepa

www.unicyclepa.com
we suck
but its all good
team YAMS member in your sig or title and say
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[madmattunipro]

Hmmm... aerodynamic unicycle anyone?

This place does tubing to any shape. http://www.eagletube.com/ct1.asp

www.eaglealloys.com


--
madmattunipro

><>Unicycle For Christ<><

www.bedfordunicycles.ca

http://www.norco.com
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[madmattunipro]

I don't know if any of this helps, but here is a list of tubing
manufacturers that deal in aluminum...

http://tinyurl.com/2xo8e8


--
madmattunipro

><>Unicycle For Christ<><

www.bedfordunicycles.ca

http://www.norco.com
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[unicyclepa]

> This place does tubing to any shape. http://www.eagletube.com/ct1.asp

i was so excited than i realized they only do stainless steal. but
thanks for the help


--
unicyclepa

www.unicyclepa.com
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but its all good
team YAMS member in your sig or title and say
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[madmattunipro]

Sorry. It said they do tubing in aluminum in another part of the site...
but maybe only stainless in any shape.


--
madmattunipro

><>Unicycle For Christ<><

www.bedfordunicycles.ca

http://www.norco.com
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[unicyclepa]

it mite be over before it even starts


--
unicyclepa

www.unicyclepa.com
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but its all good
team YAMS member in your sig or title and say
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[skilewis74]

unicyclepa wrote:
> it mite be over before it even starts


You could flatten a round tube. I've seen this done on a machine where
you feed in the tube and w/ rollers pulls it in. You could flatten it
in incriments as small as a couple of thousandths of an inch, but I
think a sixteenth of an inch at a time would be fine.

I saw a vid in metal shop in middle school where they did this to a
2X4X1" gold bar and turned it into 2" wide foil 2 or 3 thousandths of
an inch thick.


--
skilewis74
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[Chris.James]

skilewis74 wrote:
> You could flatten a round tube. I've seen this done on a machine where
> you feed in the tube and w/ rollers pulls it in. You could flatten it
> in incriments as small as a couple of thousandths of an inch, but I
> think a sixteenth of an inch at a time would be fine.
>
> I saw a vid in metal shop in middle school where they did this to a
> 2X4X1" gold bar and turned it into 2" wide foil 2 or 3 thousandths of
> an inch thick.



gold is amazing, have you ever heard of rutherford's gold foil
experiment? It proved the existence of a positively charged nuclei


--
Chris.James

"Thats my favorite thing about unicycling, I can eat oreos while
riding!" ~Me


dforbes wrote:
> Well, boys and girls, this is what separates us from the gods; Kris goes
> riding and has to worry about landing on naked ladies - you and I have
> to watch we don't land in dog poop.....
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[joemarshall]

unicyclepa wrote:
> Can you buy oval tube anywhere because i cant seem to find any



The Schlumpf frames have tubes with a rounded rectangular section to
them, sort of like your picture, but with a flat on each wide side. No
idea what it does to the strength, or where you get them, but those
certainly exist.

Joe


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[brendan]

gold is really malleable so its real easy to bend though. Aluminium isnt
that easy.


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[madmattunipro]

I don't know, but maybe someone like Bedford or another frame builder
could help as far as supply connections go... if there is oval aluminum
out there.


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[Jerrick]

'Look here.' (http://tinyurl.com/2sopct)

You should get a phone book out and start calling local shops to see if
they can sell you the tubing or know where to get it from.


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[skilewis74]

brendan wrote:
> gold is really malleable so its real easy to bend though. Aluminium isnt
> that easy.


If a trial run doesn't work well, heat it, keep it hot, and use tongs


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[gerblefranklin]

I've ovalized 1" (14 guage) stainless steel tubing using a large 6"
metalworker's vise (not some dinky home depot crap) and ten finishing
it with an english wheel (for a stainless steel frame that was never
finished). Anyone proposing bringing it down 1/16" at a time has never
done this before. It is not easy, and what you end up with is a
flattened oval, not the elegant curves that unicyclepa is proposing.
Furthermore, there are bump marks due to the vise work. It's also very
difficult to prevent twisting of the tube during the initial
flattening.

Sklewis, how exactly do you expect to keep the aluminum hot while
running it through a rolling jig? Hell, what kind of rolling jig do you
propose? And "tongs"?! Come now. I know experienced blacksmiths who
don't take jobs like this.

i worked at a machine/metalfab shop for two years. We did all of our
aluminum bending cold, only heating it to anneal between bends.

I've had plans drawn for a tubing ovalizing jig for a year or so now,
but it's not easy. You are essentially making a screw press with
precisely machined rollers to go in it. Not easy, at all. You need ot
harden the rollers, which makes it even more difficult. And if you stop
while running a part through the press, it will leave an indentation.

Call bike manufacturers and ask around. Machine shops rarely deal with
tubing, so look at fab shops instead.

If this fails, figure out a way to do it with steel legs (not titanium
for crissakes), or figure out a way to do it with round legs. maybe
e-mail Kris to ask if he knows of a tubing source in the US. $200 still
seem like a reasonable price? :-P


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[Evan Byrne]

Yo bev, In your opinion what is the easiest way to make bearing holders?


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[Wedgehog]

I don't see how that design will hold up to the rigors of muni. Your
asking for a lot of stress on a weld then the frame itself. Why hasn't
anyone come up with something like this?

My design calls for this frame to be casted in a mold. This will
increase the tensile strength 10 fold as there are no welding points.
It works off the principle of rigidity. If you have a pen and try to
break it by putting pressure on both sides it doesn't flex as the
entire container is taking the force. If you put a weld you suddenly
redirect the force to the point of stress. I would also promote that
my frame be hollow inside to increase the strength even more.


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Filename: uniframe.gif |
|Download: http://www.unicyclist.com/attachment/18635 |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+

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[uniaddict]

Casting the frame would be a good idea unless you wanted to use carbon
fiber tubes. I really like the frame design though, titanium would be
awesome.


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[brendan]

Wedgehog wrote:
> I don't see how that design will hold up to the rigors of muni. Your
> asking for a lot of stress on a weld then the frame itself. Why hasn't
> anyone come up with something like this?
>



that looks suspiciously like a koxx1 XTP frame...

and btw you could also weaken aluminium by heating it to 400C, and then
cooling it, then bending it to an oval shape (with sand in it and a
uniform weight or something, not to sure how you would do it.

But maybe that helps you.


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[fexnix]

Wedgehog that looks like the Koxx XTP frame!


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[saam]

Wedgehog wrote:
> I would also promote that my frame be hollow inside to increase the
> strength even more.



Making it hollow would actually reduce the strength not increase it.


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Sam :)


Ronnie wrote:
> "Crippled but still keen, I salute you!"
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[feel the light]

Here is a link to a torrent that will let you download a documentary
film about the Britten motorcycle. Entirely designed by one man and
friends and built in his garage in Kiwiland.
No expense spared, no idea to new. He cast parts in his wifes
pottery kiln and built the engine! There is a lot of footage of him
winding carbon graphite yarn, making molds etc. The completed 1000 cc v
twin superbike weighs in at 303 lbs. ! The bike came in second at
Daytona after falling out of the lead with an electical glitch and went
on to win several world superbike races.
You have to see this movie, this guy was the god of home fabricators.
Note that the hubs, spokes and rims are all carbon. This was in '94!
Saddly, he died in the late 90's.
Anyway, I am sure you will get much encouragement from this movie.
http://tinyurl.com/mmxa9
Here is a picture of the bike. I hope I did the attachment right.
In any event, you can find pics on google.


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Filename: dcp_0149.jpg |
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[gerblefranklin]

Wedgehog wrote:
> I don't see how that design will hold up to the rigors of muni. Your
> asking for a lot of stress on a weld then the frame itself. Why hasn't
> anyone come up with something like this?
>
> My design calls for this frame to be casted in a mold. This will
> increase the tensile strength 10 fold as there are no welding points.
> It works off the principle of rigidity. If you have a pen and try to
> break it by putting pressure on both sides it doesn't flex as the
> entire container is taking the force. If you put a weld you suddenly
> redirect the force to the point of stress. I would also promote that
> my frame be hollow inside to increase the strength even more.



Nobody's come up with something like that because he's not trying to
make that frame, and he wants a flat crown.

Your pen analogy is crap from an engineering perspective. Welds don't
magically redirect forces, they just bond materials. And hollowing a
frame doesn't increase its strength, it increases the strength to
weight ratio.

You pulled the 10 strength number out of your ass. Frames aren't rated
by tensile strength in the first place. If you'd ever actually welded
anything properly, you'd know that the welds are STRONGER than the
surrounding metal. -Cast- the damn thing? There are so many problems
with that I don't know where to start. Once again, as a general note to
people, if you don't know anything about manufacturing methodologies
and/or metallurgy, don't claim that you can design a frame.

Do you think tubes are cast? Hell no. They take a block of metal, roll
it into a sheet, and then roll it into a tube, then weld, or drive the
block of metal through a set of dies to get the proper shape. No
casting, anywhere.

Furthermore, cast shapes have poorer crystalline structures than forged
or wrought shaped. That is why crane hooks are still forged instead of
cast.

Go back to the drawing board and pull your head out of the clouds.

There isn't a best way to make bearing holders, and I'm not a good
enough machinist to be able to claim any absolute better way.
Whatever's easiest for you, most functional, and best looking is what
you want to use.


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[unicyclepa]

> I don't see how that design will hold up to the rigors of muni. Your
> asking for a lot of stress on a weld then the frame itself. Why hasn't
> anyone come up with something like this?
>
> My design calls for this frame to be casted in a mold. This will
> increase the tensile strength 10 fold as there are no welding points.
> It works off the principle of rigidity. If you have a pen and try to
> break it by putting pressure on both sides it doesn't flex as the
> entire container is taking the force. If you put a weld you suddenly
> redirect the force to the point of stress. I would also promote that my
> frame be hollow inside to increase the strength even more.



ahhaah there are so many things wrong with what you said i don't know
where to start. Like gerblefranklin said stop posting if you have no
idea what your talking about.


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[gordito8me]

lol let's all pick on the neeewwwb! but to be honest I have no idea what
you guys are talking about either.


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29er or 36er? can't decide
either way I have like 54 bucks so nothing too great.
radial 360 or nimbus 29er????
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helllpppp!!!!
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[bedheadben]

One last little thing I think you should do to it. Make it so that the
crown covers the top of the fork legs, then I think there would be a
lot of pressure taken off the welds. Please forgive me if this has
already been posted, I only read to page 5 or so.


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[unicyclepa]

> One last little thing I think you should do to it. Make it so that the
> crown covers the top of the fork legs, then I think there would be a
> lot of pressure taken off the welds. Please forgive me if this has
> already been posted, I only read to page 5 or so.

wow i like it. It would also solve the problem of capping fork legs.
also i dont think it would really add anything in they way of machining


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[bedheadben]

unicyclepa wrote:
> wow i like it. It would also solve the problem of capping fork legs.
> also i dont think it would really add anything in they way of machining


Awesome, I hope I helped you...:D


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[feel the light]

You don't have the resorces to beat them making a bike their way. We
learned it is best to make the entire part, rim,or hub, swingarm,
frame...in one seemless piece. It is poor design to duplicate the look
or shape of a frame made of metal when using carbon. Watch in my movie
how I explain why the fork broke of the front of my superbike.
Your uniframe should be made at once in one piece seemless out of
carbon graphite. I did this correctly in 1994, but I'm dead now, so you
should get my movie using bit torrent. I am not forgotten until
.........


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[gerblefranklin]

gordito8me wrote:
> lol let's all pick on the neeewwwb! but to be honest I have no idea what
> you guys are talking about either.



The point is he doesn't know what he's talking about at all, and yet
presenting his idea as the pinnacle of design.

The idea of capping the forkleg with the crown is a great one, the only
issue is that it means that you can't weld the top of the leg to the
crown, which will weaken things. I would mill all the way through the
periphery of the "cap" on the crown, leaving a few small legs to keep
it on. Then weld int eh slot that was milled to bond the forkleg at the
top. Once again, capping the legs with the crown was a great idea.


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[Blegas78]

gerblefranklin wrote:
> The point is he doesn't know what he's talking about at all, and yet
> presenting his idea as the pinnacle of design.



Although mostly true, I think that you can tell him how he's wrong and
not be quite as harsh. Don't tell him he should have no say in the
subject because he doesn't know enough about the subject. He most
likely was misinformed in his information, as well as many others. It
would be better to explain to him why he's wrong nicely, and maybe even
why he thought he was right in what he said.

I am really glad that someone on here knows what they are talking about
though in terms of frame design though, thanks for all of your input!


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[bedheadben]

gerblefranklin wrote:
> The idea of capping the forkleg with the crown is a great one, the only
> issue is that it means that you can't weld the top of the leg to the
> crown, which will weaken things. I would mill all the way through the
> periphery of the "cap" on the crown, leaving a few small legs to keep
> it on. Then weld int eh slot that was milled to bond the forkleg at the
> top. Once again, capping the legs with the crown was a great idea.


Exactly how I was thinking it would be done, I hope to see my idea used
for this uni!:)


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[roland]

roland wrote:
> Looks like you're going for something like the Pichler Solo - 'Here'
> (http://www.pichlerrad.de/de01.htm) but with a different bearing cap
> arrangement - one nice feature of the pichler crown is that it is
> machined so that there is a lip for the fork legs & seat tube to sit up
> against - this means that its easy to align the the fork legs so that
> the hub sits square in the bearings and also its harder for the legs to
> slip under load or if the bolts should come loose - I'll post some
> pictures of mine later if that helps
> Roland



Cap the fork legs - against a lip machined into the crown - who'd have
thought of that:rolleyes: ... +1 to Mr Kurt Pichler -


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[bedheadben]

roland wrote:
> Cap the fork legs - against a lip machined into the crown - who'd have
> thought of that:rolleyes: ... +1 to Mr Kurt Pichler -


Well sorrrrry! Party pooper...:p


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[unicyclepa]

>
> Cap the fork legs - against a lip machined into the crown - who'd have
> thought of that ... +1 to Mr Kurt Pichler -

that frame has very little in common with mine


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[Blegas78]

Any luck with finding aluminum oval tubing? I would also like to get
some.


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[unicyclepa]

I have sent many e mails still with no reply


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[Blegas78]

unicyclepa wrote:
> I have sent many e mails still with no reply



Ok, be sure to let me know if you find anything. I emailed Kris but he
only sources materials in Taiwan, so he has no clue about it in the US.


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