RBT opinions on fancy-spoked wheels?

[Paul Myron Hobson]

No. Not bladed spokes or low spoke wheels. I mean wheels with fancy
spoke patterns like crow's foot, etc.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/peterkolk/DSCF0666.jpg

Seems like there could be issues, but I know jack about wheel building.

\\paul

[A Muzi]

Paul Myron Hobson wrote:
> No. Not bladed spokes or low spoke wheels. I mean wheels with fancy
> spoke patterns like crow's foot, etc.
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/peterkolk/DSCF0666.jpg
> Seems like there could be issues, but I know jack about wheel building.

Why ?
That "look at me!" pattern crawls out from under a rock now and again to
no particular benefit. Not stronger, not lighter, not more durable, not
faster to build. Better in no way.

'course if you need attention . .
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Bill Sornson]

Paul Myron Hobson wrote:
> No. Not bladed spokes or low spoke wheels. I mean wheels with fancy
> spoke patterns like crow's foot, etc.
>
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/peterkolk/DSCF0666.jpg
>
> Seems like there could be issues, but I know jack about wheel
> building.

Butt ugly.

[Paul Myron Hobson]

Bill Sornson wrote:
> Bill Sornson wrote:
>> Paul Myron Hobson wrote:
>>> No. Not bladed spokes or low spoke wheels. I mean wheels with fancy
>>> spoke patterns like crow's foot, etc.
>>>
>>> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/peterkolk/DSCF0666.jpg
>>>
>>> Seems like there could be issues, but I know jack about wheel
>>> building.
>> Butt ugly.
>
> PS: That ain't crow's foot.
>
>

Yeah. That was just an example I found. A local bike club put on a
contest that those wheels were the prize. Seems silly to me. i was
just wondering if the RBT experience pool new those to be consistently
less reliable than normal wheels.

[[email protected]]

On Mar 25, 4:16 pm, Paul Myron Hobson > wrote:
> No. Not bladed spokes or low spoke wheels. I mean wheels with fancy
> spoke patterns like crow's foot, etc.
>
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/peterkolk/DSCF0666.jpg
>
> Seems like there could be issues, but I know jack about wheel building.
>
> \\paul

Dear Paul,

No one has demonstrated an advantage for the more bizarre spoke
patterns. There are debates about radial on one side versus cross-x on
the other:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#half-radial

The twisted spoke pattern in the picture does have a practical use
that's been mentioned before on RBT: if you're stuck in the middle of
nowhere and the local bike shop only offers spokes that are too long,
twisting the spokes in the chicken-wire pattern may let you use the
too-long spokes.

Of course, few riders ever actually find themselves in the middle of
nowhere with an extravagant selection of too-long spokes and a
conveniently broken wheel.

So it's often suggested that the chicken-wire lacing pattern is just a
way of attracting attention without going through the pain of a tatoo
or body-piercing.

However, I refuse to believe this unkind theory. If chicken-wire
enthusiasts were only interested in looking different, then we'd see
wheels with three or four spokes twisted together, not just the
lame old two-twisted-spokes pattern that's been done to death.

No, I prefer to believe that the chicken-wire enthusiasts must just be
hopeful but clueless--they sincerely believe that there must be some
technical advantage to twisting spokes around each other. They
probably entertain other peculiar notions, too.

For example, they might put a double front sprocket on a fixie for
better gearing, paint their rims pink for more speed, and saw the ends
off their handlebars for--

Well, for some reason:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/peterkolk/DSCF0666.jpg

I'd suggest true red rims for speed, a front triple for really hilly
fixie riding, and amputating the whole left bar at the stem for--

Well, for some reason. Certainly not just to look different.

:)

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[Bill Sornson]

Bill Sornson wrote:
> Paul Myron Hobson wrote:
>> No. Not bladed spokes or low spoke wheels. I mean wheels with fancy
>> spoke patterns like crow's foot, etc.
>>
>> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/peterkolk/DSCF0666.jpg
>>
>> Seems like there could be issues, but I know jack about wheel
>> building.
>
> Butt ugly.

PS: That ain't crow's foot.

[A Muzi]

>>> Paul Myron Hobson wrote:
>>>> No. Not bladed spokes or low spoke wheels. I mean wheels with fancy
>>>> spoke patterns like crow's foot, etc.
>>>> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/peterkolk/DSCF0666.jpg
>>>> Seems like there could be issues, but I know jack about wheel
>>>> building.

> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>> Butt ugly.
>> PS: That ain't crow's foot.

Paul Myron Hobson wrote:
> Yeah. That was just an example I found. A local bike club put on a
> contest that those wheels were the prize. Seems silly to me. i was
> just wondering if the RBT experience pool new those to be consistently
> less reliable than normal wheels.

Good choice of a prize for DFL.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

On Mar 25, 5:16 pm, Paul Myron Hobson > wrote:
> No. Not bladed spokes or low spoke wheels. I mean wheels with fancy
> spoke patterns like crow's foot, etc.
>
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/peterkolk/DSCF0666.jpg
>
> Seems like there could be issues, but I know jack about wheel building.
>
> \\paul

"Conventional wheels built exceptionally well' SHOULD be the goal..not
anything that is trying to reinvent the wheel, again and again and
again.....

[[email protected]]

On Mar 25, 6:16 pm, Paul Myron Hobson > wrote:
> No. Not bladed spokes or low spoke wheels. I mean wheels with fancy
> spoke patterns like crow's foot, etc.
>
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/peterkolk/DSCF0666.jpg
>
> Seems like there could be issues, but I know jack about wheel building.
>
> \\paul

To paraphrase George Mallory's exclamation of why he wanted to climb
Everest, "Because it is there!", these wheels are built because "They
can be!".

[DougC]

wrote:
>
> The twisted spoke pattern in the picture does have a practical use
> that's been mentioned before on RBT: if you're stuck in the middle of
> nowhere and the local bike shop only offers spokes that are too long,
> twisting the spokes in the chicken-wire pattern may let you use the
> too-long spokes.
>

The above is the only halfway-acceptable reason I've ever heard for
possibly doing this, aside from aesthetics.

You see a lot of this sort of silliness on the {bikerod n kustom} and
{bicycle forest} websites. Some of them wheels look like macrame, like
they must have started with spokes about 20" long to lace up a 20"
wheel.....
~

[autopi]

> Why ?
> That "look at me!" pattern crawls out from under a rock now and again to
> no particular benefit. Not stronger, not lighter, not more durable, not
> faster to build. Better in no way.
>
> 'course if you need attention . .
> --
> Andrew Muziwww.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

But are they worse in any way? If they're equivalent in every other
sense, then maybe there's no reason not to get them if you like the
way they look. I have absolutely no idea, but I would imagine that
they would be worse, functionally speaking, but so far people seem to
be commenting on the aesthetic issue.

[Phil, Non-Squid]

Paul Myron Hobson wrote:
> Bill Sornson wrote:
>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>> Paul Myron Hobson wrote:
>>>> No. Not bladed spokes or low spoke wheels. I mean wheels with
>>>> fancy spoke patterns like crow's foot, etc.
>>>>
>>>> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/peterkolk/DSCF0666.jpg
>>>>
>>>> Seems like there could be issues, but I know jack about wheel
>>>> building.
>>> Butt ugly.
>>
>> PS: That ain't crow's foot.
>>
>>
>
> Yeah. That was just an example I found. A local bike club put on a
> contest that those wheels were the prize. Seems silly to me. i was
> just wondering if the RBT experience pool new those to be consistently
> less reliable than normal wheels.

If a spoke breaks, you don't have to stop and tie the offending spoke off to
prevent floppage. Not the case every time a spoke breaks, but sometimes...
--
Phil

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

On Mar 26, 9:35 pm, "autopi" > wrote:
> > Why ?
> > That "look at me!" pattern crawls out from under a rock now and again to
> > no particular benefit. Not stronger, not lighter, not more durable, not
> > faster to build. Better in no way.
>
> > 'course if you need attention . .
> > --
> > Andrew Muziwww.yellowjersey.org
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> But are they worse in any way?

Absolutely, the tension is so goofy they are not reliable in any way.


If they're equivalent in every other
> sense, then maybe there's no reason not to get them if you like the
> way they look. I have absolutely no idea, but I would imagine that
> they would be worse, functionally speaking, but so far people seem to
> be commenting on the aesthetic issue.

Ohh so much these days on 'bikes' is for the look, not the
function...all about ooo-ahhh, coffee shop points, not any genuine
performance issue..stated by riders that buy this stuff and
manufacturers that swear there is a difference.

[Zog The Undeniable]

Paul Myron Hobson wrote:
> No. Not bladed spokes or low spoke wheels. I mean wheels with fancy
> spoke patterns like crow's foot, etc.
>
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/peterkolk/DSCF0666.jpg
>
> Seems like there could be issues, but I know jack about wheel building.
>
> \\paul

None of them have any technical advantages (and some practical
disadvantages such as a wide mixture of spoke lengths).

3L3T is very cool though:

http://www.baldurdash.org/OtherStuff/3leading3trailing.html

http://www.minortriad.com/wheel.html

Kind of like the old CTC logo:

http://www.wingedwheels.info/

[Luke]

In article >, Paul Myron Hobson
> wrote:

> No. Not bladed spokes or low spoke wheels. I mean wheels with fancy
> spoke patterns like crow's foot, etc.
>
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/peterkolk/DSCF0666.jpg
>
> Seems like there could be issues, but I know jack about wheel building.
>
> \\paul

I once built a front wheel similar to those featured in your link. It
was a rainy afternoon, I had a set of too long spokes, a spare rim and
hub...

Well, that was the only instance a spoke broke -- not related to an
event -- on the dozen wheels I've built. It was after approx 1000 KM;
during that period, I could hear the spokes creak as they shifted
against their intertwined partners.

There's nothing to recommend these exotic lacing patterns save for
esthetics. And even then their novelty can only be appreciated when
parked.

Luke

[Luke]

In article >,
> wrote:

> On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:38:53 -0400, Luke >
> wrote:
>
> >In article >, Paul Myron Hobson
> > wrote:
> >
> >> No. Not bladed spokes or low spoke wheels. I mean wheels with fancy
> >> spoke patterns like crow's foot, etc.
> >>
> >> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/peterkolk/DSCF0666.jpg
> >>
> >> Seems like there could be issues, but I know jack about wheel building.
> >>
> >> \\paul
> >
> >I once built a front wheel similar to those featured in your link. It
> >was a rainy afternoon, I had a set of too long spokes, a spare rim and
> >hub...
> >
> >Well, that was the only instance a spoke broke -- not related to an
> >event -- on the dozen wheels I've built. It was after approx 1000 KM;
> >during that period, I could hear the spokes creak as they shifted
> >against their intertwined partners.
> >
> >There's nothing to recommend these exotic lacing patterns save for
> >esthetics. And even then their novelty can only be appreciated when
> >parked.
> >
> >Luke
>
> Dear Luke,
>
> Do you remember where the spoke broke? Elbow, nipple, or where it
> twisted around the other spoke?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

I remember the spoke broke as it exited the nipple. There were a couple
more twines in my pattern than in the patterns of Paul's link so the
spokes left the nipple at severe angles. And all the creaking and
shifting of the intertwined spokes during loading/unloading certainly
didn't help.

Definitely not a good idea! But I do fondly recall a girl commenting
that the wheel was "cute".

Luke

[[email protected]]

On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:38:53 -0400, Luke >
wrote:

>In article >, Paul Myron Hobson
> wrote:
>
>> No. Not bladed spokes or low spoke wheels. I mean wheels with fancy
>> spoke patterns like crow's foot, etc.
>>
>> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/peterkolk/DSCF0666.jpg
>>
>> Seems like there could be issues, but I know jack about wheel building.
>>
>> \\paul
>
>I once built a front wheel similar to those featured in your link. It
>was a rainy afternoon, I had a set of too long spokes, a spare rim and
>hub...
>
>Well, that was the only instance a spoke broke -- not related to an
>event -- on the dozen wheels I've built. It was after approx 1000 KM;
>during that period, I could hear the spokes creak as they shifted
>against their intertwined partners.
>
>There's nothing to recommend these exotic lacing patterns save for
>esthetics. And even then their novelty can only be appreciated when
>parked.
>
>Luke

Dear Luke,

Do you remember where the spoke broke? Elbow, nipple, or where it
twisted around the other spoke?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[RonSonic]

On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:38:53 -0400, Luke > wrote:

>In article >, Paul Myron Hobson
> wrote:
>
>> No. Not bladed spokes or low spoke wheels. I mean wheels with fancy
>> spoke patterns like crow's foot, etc.
>>
>> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/peterkolk/DSCF0666.jpg
>>
>> Seems like there could be issues, but I know jack about wheel building.
>>
>> \\paul
>
>I once built a front wheel similar to those featured in your link. It
>was a rainy afternoon, I had a set of too long spokes, a spare rim and
>hub...
>
>Well, that was the only instance a spoke broke -- not related to an
>event -- on the dozen wheels I've built. It was after approx 1000 KM;
>during that period, I could hear the spokes creak as they shifted
>against their intertwined partners.
>
>There's nothing to recommend these exotic lacing patterns save for
>esthetics. And even then their novelty can only be appreciated when
>parked.

Do they admit squirrels?

Ron

[Luke]

In article >, RonSonic
> wrote:

> >There's nothing to recommend these exotic lacing patterns save for
> >esthetics. And even then their novelty can only be appreciated when
> >parked.
>
> Do they admit squirrels?
>
> Ron

Only if they're of age.

[[email protected][_2_]]

bicycle quarterly's home page hosts a gallery includes a snapshot of
the hmmm hmmmm: Ca. 1934 Reyhand (Vol. 5, No. 1)
the reyhand has art spoke lacing. local noise suggests the bike
snapped is a show bike not a production number.
having bore down on learning how to fashoin a bnte mir into a
symetrical wheel, the idea of not having all spokes, or all spoke
pairs, a react to each other and then act upon the rim in similar
ways
is not good.
with an art lacing like the Reyhand's rear wheel, the builder has two
different groups of spoke/rim interaction or 24 varities of spoke rim
interaction. maybe more, on a bad day. that is insane.

[john]

On Mar 25, 8:26 pm, Paul Myron Hobson > wrote:
> Bill Sornson wrote:
> > Bill Sornson wrote:
> >> Paul Myron Hobson wrote:
> >>> No. Not bladed spokes or low spoke wheels. I mean wheels with fancy
> >>> spoke patterns like crow's foot, etc.
>
> >>>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/peterkolk/DSCF0666.jpg
>
> >>> Seems like there could be issues, but I know jack about wheel
> >>> building.
> >> Butt ugly.
>
> > PS: That ain't crow's foot.
>
> Yeah. That was just an example I found. A local bike club put on a
> contest that those wheels were the prize. Seems silly to me. i was
> just wondering if the RBT experience pool new those to be consistently
> less reliable than normal wheels.

IIRC, Gerd Schraner in "The Art of Wheelbuilding" said something to
the effect that he
reckoned that it was better for people to build oddly spoked wheels
than to take drugs. Not exactly a ringing endorsement. I don't
remember him saying they are unsafe or unreliabale. I don't have his
book w/ me to give the exact quote.
Personaly I don't see anything unreliable about it, so long as the
basics of wheel building are up held; high tension, even tension,
trueness, roundness, proper dish, stress relief, but I could easily be
missing something.
Some people consider low rider cars & Harleys art. If Harleys can be
considered f***ing art, then anything can be considered art. I
consider Harleys to be an expensively painted & chromed anachronistic
locomotive. I'll take a weird bicycle wheel over a fat, inefficient,
smoking, belching, oil leaking, unreliable, noisy POS Harley.

Cheers, John

[[email protected][_2_]]

IN THEORY...
i know who tries those patterns. LBS people: access to unlimited
spokes lengths.
in january.
finding correct lengths for standard double wall rims is difficult.
ax!

[Paul Myron Hobson]

Luke wrote:
>>> In article >, Paul Myron Hobson
>>> > wrote:
>>>> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/peterkolk/DSCF0666.jpg
>>>>
>>>> Seems like there could be issues, but I know jack about wheel building.
>>>>
>>>> \\paul

Luke wrote:
>>> I once built a front wheel similar to those featured in your link. It
>>> was a rainy afternoon, I had a set of too long spokes, a spare rim and
>>> hub...
>>>

Luke wrote:
> Definitely not a good idea! But I do fondly recall a girl commenting
> that the wheel was "cute".

SOLD! I'll take two! ;)

[[email protected]]

On 29 Mar 2007 19:13:03 -0700, "john" > wrote:

>On Mar 25, 8:26 pm, Paul Myron Hobson > wrote:
>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>> > Bill Sornson wrote:
>> >> Paul Myron Hobson wrote:
>> >>> No. Not bladed spokes or low spoke wheels. I mean wheels with fancy
>> >>> spoke patterns like crow's foot, etc.
>>
>> >>>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/peterkolk/DSCF0666.jpg
>>
>> >>> Seems like there could be issues, but I know jack about wheel
>> >>> building.
>> >> Butt ugly.
>>
>> > PS: That ain't crow's foot.
>>
>> Yeah. That was just an example I found. A local bike club put on a
>> contest that those wheels were the prize. Seems silly to me. i was
>> just wondering if the RBT experience pool new those to be consistently
>> less reliable than normal wheels.
>
>IIRC, Gerd Schraner in "The Art of Wheelbuilding" said something to
>the effect that he
>reckoned that it was better for people to build oddly spoked wheels
>than to take drugs. Not exactly a ringing endorsement. I don't
>remember him saying they are unsafe or unreliabale. I don't have his
>book w/ me to give the exact quote.
>Personaly I don't see anything unreliable about it, so long as the
>basics of wheel building are up held; high tension, even tension,
>trueness, roundness, proper dish, stress relief, but I could easily be
>missing something.
>Some people consider low rider cars & Harleys art. If Harleys can be
>considered f***ing art, then anything can be considered art. I
>consider Harleys to be an expensively painted & chromed anachronistic
>locomotive. I'll take a weird bicycle wheel over a fat, inefficient,
>smoking, belching, oil leaking, unreliable, noisy POS Harley.
>
>Cheers, John

Dear John,

"Yet, young bike freaks, apprentices and mechanics seem to like this
kind of spoking pattern [twisted or chickenwire lacing]. My advice:
Leave them at it and let them continue to show their enjoyment and
enthusiasm this way. It's better to see them rolling spokes than
rolling joints."

--Gerd Schraner, "The Art of Wheelbuilding," p. 60

Of course, rolling joints may be the necessary first step to twisting
spokes . . .

However, Schraner prefaced his anti-drug comment with these
observations:

"The twsting of spokes, instead of the clasic crossing work, is a
waste of time for road use. Tests have shown that it results in a very
unstable wheel. The lateral stability is about the same as a normally
spoked wheel, but, radially, the wheel reacts so sluggishly that
encounters with momentary radial overloads (bumps in the road) the
highly praised damping effect is delayed."

"The exercise [twisted or chickenwire lacing] is only useful for trial
sport, where the bike is momentarily held at a standstill after hard
landings and hopping tricks."

"Twisted spoking patterns are not only unaesthetic but are at an
additional mechanical disadvantage resulting from the extreme angle of
the spoke directly at the nipple."

1) I don't know what tests Schraner refers to, nor what the
"sluggishness" logic means.

2) Nor do I know why a trials bicycle would benefit from an unstable
wheel that reacts sluggishly--maybe some notion of quasi-suspension?

3) The only spoke nipple shown in the picture in Schraner's book of an
actual chicken-wire wheel seems to be at just about a normal angle.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[A Muzi]

>>>> Paul Myron Hobson wrote:
>>>>> No. Not bladed spokes or low spoke wheels. I mean wheels with fancy
>>>>> spoke patterns like crow's foot, etc.
>>>>> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/peterkolk/DSCF0666.jpg
>>>>> Seems like there could be issues, but I know jack about wheel
>>>>> building.

>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>>> Butt ugly.
>>> PS: That ain't crow's foot.

> Paul Myron Hobson > wrote:
>> Yeah. That was just an example I found. A local bike club put on a
>> contest that those wheels were the prize. Seems silly to me. i was
>> just wondering if the RBT experience pool new those to be consistently
>> less reliable than normal wheels.

john wrote:
> IIRC, Gerd Schraner in "The Art of Wheelbuilding" said something to
> the effect that he
> reckoned that it was better for people to build oddly spoked wheels
> than to take drugs.
-snip-

I didn't get the rush.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Ted Bennett]

> IRC, Gerd Schraner in "The Art of Wheelbuilding" said something to
> the effect that he
> reckoned that it was better for people to build oddly spoked wheels
> than to take drugs. Not exactly a ringing endorsement. I don't
> remember him saying they are unsafe or unreliabale. I don't have his
> book w/ me to give the exact quote.
> Personaly I don't see anything unreliable about it, so long as the
> basics of wheel building are up held; high tension, even tension,
> trueness, roundness, proper dish, stress relief, but I could easily be
> missing something.
> Some people consider low rider cars & Harleys art. If Harleys can be
> considered f***ing art, then anything can be considered art. I
> consider Harleys to be an expensively painted & chromed anachronistic
> locomotive. I'll take a weird bicycle wheel over a fat, inefficient,
> smoking, belching, oil leaking, unreliable, noisy POS Harley.
>
> Cheers, John

Correction: . . .over a fat, inefficient, smoking, belching, oil
leaking, unreliable, farting, noisy POS Harley.

--
Ted Bennett

[john]

On Mar 29, 7:32 pm, wrote:
> On 29 Mar 2007 19:13:03 -0700, "john" > wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Mar 25, 8:26 pm, Paul Myron Hobson > wrote:
> >> Bill Sornson wrote:
> >> > Bill Sornson wrote:
> >> >> Paul Myron Hobson wrote:
> >> >>> No. Not bladed spokes or low spoke wheels. I mean wheels with fancy
> >> >>> spoke patterns like crow's foot, etc.
>
> >> >>>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/peterkolk/DSCF0666.jpg
>
> >> >>> Seems like there could be issues, but I know jack about wheel
> >> >>> building.
> >> >> Butt ugly.
>
> >> > PS: That ain't crow's foot.
>
> >> Yeah. That was just an example I found. A local bike club put on a
> >> contest that those wheels were the prize. Seems silly to me. i was
> >> just wondering if the RBT experience pool new those to be consistently
> >> less reliable than normal wheels.
>
> >IIRC, Gerd Schraner in "The Art of Wheelbuilding" said something to
> >the effect that he
> >reckoned that it was better for people to build oddly spoked wheels
> >than to take drugs. Not exactly a ringing endorsement. I don't
> >remember him saying they are unsafe or unreliabale. I don't have his
> >book w/ me to give the exact quote.
> >Personaly I don't see anything unreliable about it, so long as the
> >basics of wheel building are up held; high tension, even tension,
> >trueness, roundness, proper dish, stress relief, but I could easily be
> >missing something.
> >Some people consider low rider cars & Harleys art. If Harleys can be
> >considered f***ing art, then anything can be considered art. I
> >consider Harleys to be an expensively painted & chromed anachronistic
> >locomotive. I'll take a weird bicycle wheel over a fat, inefficient,
> >smoking, belching, oil leaking, unreliable, noisy POS Harley.
>
> >Cheers, John
>
> Dear John,
>
> "Yet, young bike freaks, apprentices and mechanics seem to like this
> kind of spoking pattern [twisted or chickenwire lacing]. My advice:
> Leave them at it and let them continue to show their enjoyment and
> enthusiasm this way. It's better to see them rolling spokes than
> rolling joints."
>
> --Gerd Schraner, "The Art of Wheelbuilding," p. 60
>
> Of course, rolling joints may be the necessary first step to twisting
> spokes . . .
>
> However, Schraner prefaced his anti-drug comment with these
> observations:
>
> "The twsting of spokes, instead of the clasic crossing work, is a
> waste of time for road use. Tests have shown that it results in a very
> unstable wheel. The lateral stability is about the same as a normally
> spoked wheel, but, radially, the wheel reacts so sluggishly that
> encounters with momentary radial overloads (bumps in the road) the
> highly praised damping effect is delayed."
>
> "The exercise [twisted or chickenwire lacing] is only useful for trial
> sport, where the bike is momentarily held at a standstill after hard
> landings and hopping tricks."
>
> "Twisted spoking patterns are not only unaesthetic but are at an
> additional mechanical disadvantage resulting from the extreme angle of
> the spoke directly at the nipple."
>
> 1) I don't know what tests Schraner refers to, nor what the
> "sluggishness" logic means.
>
> 2) Nor do I know why a trials bicycle would benefit from an unstable
> wheel that reacts sluggishly--maybe some notion of quasi-suspension?
>
> 3) The only spoke nipple shown in the picture in Schraner's book of an
> actual chicken-wire wheel seems to be at just about a normal angle.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

Dear Carl
I stand corrected. I had forgotten his criticism of this technique. I
have never entertained any thought of building a wheel this way,
probably didn't pay any attention to the negative side or this
technique. I just remembered the drug reference.
Thanks, John

[john]

On Mar 29, 9:18 pm, Ted Bennett > wrote:
> > IRC, Gerd Schraner in "The Art of Wheelbuilding" said something to
> > the effect that he
> > reckoned that it was better for people to build oddly spoked wheels
> > than to take drugs. Not exactly a ringing endorsement. I don't
> > remember him saying they are unsafe or unreliabale. I don't have his
> > book w/ me to give the exact quote.
> > Personaly I don't see anything unreliable about it, so long as the
> > basics of wheel building are up held; high tension, even tension,
> > trueness, roundness, proper dish, stress relief, but I could easily be
> > missing something.
> > Some people consider low rider cars & Harleys art. If Harleys can be
> > considered f***ing art, then anything can be considered art. I
> > consider Harleys to be an expensively painted & chromed anachronistic
> > locomotive. I'll take a weird bicycle wheel over a fat, inefficient,
> > smoking, belching, oil leaking, unreliable, noisy POS Harley.
>
> > Cheers, John
>
> Correction: . . .over a fat, inefficient, smoking, belching, oil
> leaking, unreliable, farting, noisy POS Harley.
>
> --
> Ted Bennett

Again I stand corrected :-o

[[email protected]]

On 30 Mar 2007 11:43:54 -0700, "john" > wrote:

>On Mar 29, 7:32 pm, wrote:
>> On 29 Mar 2007 19:13:03 -0700, "john" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Mar 25, 8:26 pm, Paul Myron Hobson > wrote:
>> >> Bill Sornson wrote:
>> >> > Bill Sornson wrote:
>> >> >> Paul Myron Hobson wrote:
>> >> >>> No. Not bladed spokes or low spoke wheels. I mean wheels with fancy
>> >> >>> spoke patterns like crow's foot, etc.
>>
>> >> >>>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/peterkolk/DSCF0666.jpg
>>
>> >> >>> Seems like there could be issues, but I know jack about wheel
>> >> >>> building.
>> >> >> Butt ugly.
>>
>> >> > PS: That ain't crow's foot.
>>
>> >> Yeah. That was just an example I found. A local bike club put on a
>> >> contest that those wheels were the prize. Seems silly to me. i was
>> >> just wondering if the RBT experience pool new those to be consistently
>> >> less reliable than normal wheels.
>>
>> >IIRC, Gerd Schraner in "The Art of Wheelbuilding" said something to
>> >the effect that he
>> >reckoned that it was better for people to build oddly spoked wheels
>> >than to take drugs. Not exactly a ringing endorsement. I don't
>> >remember him saying they are unsafe or unreliabale. I don't have his
>> >book w/ me to give the exact quote.
>> >Personaly I don't see anything unreliable about it, so long as the
>> >basics of wheel building are up held; high tension, even tension,
>> >trueness, roundness, proper dish, stress relief, but I could easily be
>> >missing something.
>> >Some people consider low rider cars & Harleys art. If Harleys can be
>> >considered f***ing art, then anything can be considered art. I
>> >consider Harleys to be an expensively painted & chromed anachronistic
>> >locomotive. I'll take a weird bicycle wheel over a fat, inefficient,
>> >smoking, belching, oil leaking, unreliable, noisy POS Harley.
>>
>> >Cheers, John
>>
>> Dear John,
>>
>> "Yet, young bike freaks, apprentices and mechanics seem to like this
>> kind of spoking pattern [twisted or chickenwire lacing]. My advice:
>> Leave them at it and let them continue to show their enjoyment and
>> enthusiasm this way. It's better to see them rolling spokes than
>> rolling joints."
>>
>> --Gerd Schraner, "The Art of Wheelbuilding," p. 60
>>
>> Of course, rolling joints may be the necessary first step to twisting
>> spokes . . .
>>
>> However, Schraner prefaced his anti-drug comment with these
>> observations:
>>
>> "The twsting of spokes, instead of the clasic crossing work, is a
>> waste of time for road use. Tests have shown that it results in a very
>> unstable wheel. The lateral stability is about the same as a normally
>> spoked wheel, but, radially, the wheel reacts so sluggishly that
>> encounters with momentary radial overloads (bumps in the road) the
>> highly praised damping effect is delayed."
>>
>> "The exercise [twisted or chickenwire lacing] is only useful for trial
>> sport, where the bike is momentarily held at a standstill after hard
>> landings and hopping tricks."
>>
>> "Twisted spoking patterns are not only unaesthetic but are at an
>> additional mechanical disadvantage resulting from the extreme angle of
>> the spoke directly at the nipple."
>>
>> 1) I don't know what tests Schraner refers to, nor what the
>> "sluggishness" logic means.
>>
>> 2) Nor do I know why a trials bicycle would benefit from an unstable
>> wheel that reacts sluggishly--maybe some notion of quasi-suspension?
>>
>> 3) The only spoke nipple shown in the picture in Schraner's book of an
>> actual chicken-wire wheel seems to be at just about a normal angle.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carl Fogel
>
>Dear Carl
>I stand corrected. I had forgotten his criticism of this technique. I
>have never entertained any thought of building a wheel this way,
>probably didn't pay any attention to the negative side or this
>technique. I just remembered the drug reference.
>Thanks, John

Dear John,

No, no! You stand confirmed, not corrected!

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

You wrote that you remembered Schraner saying something about it being
better to build oddly shaped wheels than to do drugs, but you didn't
have his book handy for the exact quote.

To me, a half-remembered quote is like red flannel waving in front of
a bullfrog--I can't resist looking for things like that any more than
the frog can resist the lure.

My post would have been better and clearer if it had started "You're
right--here's what Schraner said:" and then gone on to quote him.

Schraner's passage starts with "Yet," so it may have looked as if I
was disagreeing with you.

Sorry for any confusion.

(And not jealous or bitter at all that you remembered that juicy quote
and I didn't.)

Cheers,

Carl Fogel