aluminum frames? -- not a troll

[Jim Flom]

Are aluminum frames "still" "bad?" This LBS guy that I am gravitating to (by
virtue of geography and I bought my good bike there) will flat out NOT sell me
an aluminum frame. This would not be for my main ride. This is a back-up,
wet-weather, preeminently affordable yet raceable frame I am looking for. I'm
looking for a great deal on a new alu frame for my backup bike. Aside from my
good bike, I ride a '98 Raleigh R 500 frame that I want to replace because it
feels cumbersome. It has been mostly upgraded to an Ultegra drivetrain, and it
still has cheaper Mavic wheels. If I got a good frame I could borrow (hehe) my
wife's Rolf Sestrierre wheels if I felt like I "needed" them. LBS guy won't
sell me an aluminum frame though. He says they are all too stiff, something
bad about the dropouts, and break too easily. Mind you, I just got my wife a
Cannondale CAAD 5 R3000si (used). I just want a good, light frame I can put
miles on, race if I feel like it, and not worry about rust, without buying
stinking titanium for stinking Ultegra. Thanks much.

Jim

[S. Anderson]

>Jim Flom" > wrote in message
...
> Are aluminum frames "still" "bad?" This LBS guy that I am gravitating to
(by
> virtue of geography and I bought my good bike there) will flat out NOT
sell me
> an aluminum frame. This would not be for my main ride. This is a
back-up,
> wet-weather, preeminently affordable yet raceable frame I am looking for.
I'm
> looking for a great deal on a new alu frame for my backup bike. Aside
from my
> good bike, I ride a '98 Raleigh R 500 frame that I want to replace because
it
> feels cumbersome. It has been mostly upgraded to an Ultegra drivetrain,
and it
> still has cheaper Mavic wheels. If I got a good frame I could borrow
(hehe) my
> wife's Rolf Sestrierre wheels if I felt like I "needed" them. LBS guy
won't
> sell me an aluminum frame though. He says they are all too stiff,
something
> bad about the dropouts, and break too easily. Mind you, I just got my
wife a
> Cannondale CAAD 5 R3000si (used). I just want a good, light frame I can
put
> miles on, race if I feel like it, and not worry about rust, without buying
> stinking titanium for stinking Ultegra. Thanks much.
>
> Jim
>

IMHO, there's a lot of nonsense that goes on about alu frames, specifically
about "ride quality" and that type of stuff. There's nothing wrong from an
aluminum frame compared to any other frame. If you could perform some type
of blind test between an alu frame and other frame materials, I doubt many
would be able to tell the difference. There are good reasons to buy other
materials, but they're not related to ride. Steel can be straightened after
a crash, re-brazed if a dropout breaks etc. But you can get a very good alu
frame very cheap that will kick an equivalent steel frame's arse in weight
and stiffness. I've always liked steel (I'm old-school..) because of the
ease of repair, but I bought an alu MTB frame to see how it is and frankly
it's quite fine in all ways compared to steel. I think composites have the
potential to offer a better ride than more conventional materials because of
the construction methods. However, I'm not wild about most current
composite frame's durability.

My $0.02CDN worth,

Scott..

[swamprun]

Troll


On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:35:43 +0000, Jim Flom wrote:

> Are aluminum frames "still" "bad?" This LBS guy that I am gravitating to (by
> virtue of geography and I bought my good bike there) will flat out NOT sell me
> an aluminum frame. This would not be for my main ride. This is a back-up,
> wet-weather, preeminently affordable yet raceable frame I am looking for. I'm
> looking for a great deal on a new alu frame for my backup bike. Aside from my
> good bike, I ride a '98 Raleigh R 500 frame that I want to replace because it
> feels cumbersome. It has been mostly upgraded to an Ultegra drivetrain, and it
> still has cheaper Mavic wheels. If I got a good frame I could borrow (hehe) my
> wife's Rolf Sestrierre wheels if I felt like I "needed" them. LBS guy won't
> sell me an aluminum frame though. He says they are all too stiff, something
> bad about the dropouts, and break too easily. Mind you, I just got my wife a
> Cannondale CAAD 5 R3000si (used). I just want a good, light frame I can put
> miles on, race if I feel like it, and not worry about rust, without buying
> stinking titanium for stinking Ultegra. Thanks much.
>
> Jim

[Jon Bond]

"Jim Flom" > wrote in message
...
> Are aluminum frames "still" "bad?" This LBS guy that I am gravitating to
(by
> virtue of geography and I bought my good bike there) will flat out NOT
sell me
> an aluminum frame. This would not be for my main ride. This is a
back-up,
> wet-weather, preeminently affordable yet raceable frame I am looking for.
I'm
> looking for a great deal on a new alu frame for my backup bike. Aside
from my
> good bike, I ride a '98 Raleigh R 500 frame that I want to replace because
it
> feels cumbersome. It has been mostly upgraded to an Ultegra drivetrain,
and it
> still has cheaper Mavic wheels. If I got a good frame I could borrow
(hehe) my
> wife's Rolf Sestrierre wheels if I felt like I "needed" them. LBS guy
won't
> sell me an aluminum frame though. He says they are all too stiff,
something
> bad about the dropouts, and break too easily. Mind you, I just got my
wife a
> Cannondale CAAD 5 R3000si (used). I just want a good, light frame I can
put
> miles on, race if I feel like it, and not worry about rust, without buying
> stinking titanium for stinking Ultegra. Thanks much.
>
> Jim

Sounds like somebody had a bad experience with an aluminum frame.

For all those people that say titanium is too stiff, go look at a castellano
fango - it actually uses aluminum plates as its pivot mechanism, similar to
how cannondale scalpels use carbon fiber. My point? Design has FAR more to
do with how a bike rides, how strong the bike is, and if the bike feels
stiff or not. You can make a whippy aluminum frame or a steel frame that
feels harsh. If you're going to be riding it a lot in the rain and
nastiness, then either go with steel and make sure you put framesaver in
there and deal with any scratches and dings quickly, or get a sturdy
aluminum one.

The store I work.. well, worked, I stopped yesterday 'cause I'm going back
to school - anyway, we sell tons of cannondale road bikes. If it says
anything to you, three of the guys who work there just ordered new bikes (an
R6000, and R5000, and an R2000). One is switching from an R1000, one is
switching from a Gunnar steel bike, and one is switching from an Aegis
Carbon bike that was just a bit rich for his blood, I think.

Of the broken frames I've seen in the shop, one was mine (aluminum entry
level hardtail, small crack at a fairly nasty looking dropout weld), one was
a triathlon bike that was too small, so it had huge amounts of steerer tube
sticking out (it was a trainer only bike, so it worked for quite a while
like that), a couple older steel frames that rusted through, one new steel
frame that pulled apart at the head tube/top tube after a crash, a couple
aluminum mountain bikes that were just abused, and one aluminum one that got
run over by a car. There are a very few frames out there that seem to break
a lot, but they're 100% attributable to bad design, and I personally don't
know of any aluminum road bikes on that list.

Get whatever feels best. If you feel a difference between steel and
aluminum, and like the steel, then by all means get it. But don't let the
salesman decide for you.

Jon Bond

[Sorni]

"Tim McNamara" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "swamprun" > wrote:
>
> > Troll
>
> Actually, Swampy, not a troll. Jim Flom is a long-time participant in
> these here newsgroups.

Pretty sure he was joking.

Bill "or she, I suppose" S.

[B. Sanders]

"Jim Flom" > wrote in message
...
> Are aluminum frames "still" "bad?"

Aluminum frames are fine, generally speaking.

> This LBS guy that I am gravitating to (by
> virtue of geography and I bought my good bike there) will flat out NOT
sell me
> an aluminum frame.

We have a dealer like that here in Urbana. He *hates* aluminum frames.

> This would not be for my main ride. This is a back-up,
> wet-weather, preeminently affordable yet raceable frame I am looking for.
I'm
> looking for a great deal on a new alu frame for my backup bike. Aside
from my
> good bike, I ride a '98 Raleigh R 500 frame that I want to replace because
it
> feels cumbersome. It has been mostly upgraded to an Ultegra drivetrain,
and it
> still has cheaper Mavic wheels. If I got a good frame I could borrow
(hehe) my
> wife's Rolf Sestrierre wheels if I felt like I "needed" them. LBS guy
won't
> sell me an aluminum frame though. He says they are all too stiff,
something
> bad about the dropouts, and break too easily. Mind you, I just got my
wife a
> Cannondale CAAD 5 R3000si (used). I just want a good, light frame I can
put
> miles on, race if I feel like it, and not worry about rust, without buying
> stinking titanium for stinking Ultegra. Thanks much.

He wants you to spend the big bux on a Ti frame from his shop, of course.
Go somewhere else.

-Barry

[Werehatrack]

On 12 Aug 2003 00:35:43 GMT, (Jim Flom) may
have said:

>Are aluminum frames "still" "bad?" This LBS guy that I am gravitating to (by
>virtue of geography and I bought my good bike there) will flat out NOT sell me
>an aluminum frame. This would not be for my main ride. This is a back-up,
>wet-weather, preeminently affordable yet raceable frame I am looking for. I'm
>looking for a great deal on a new alu frame for my backup bike. Aside from my
>good bike, I ride a '98 Raleigh R 500 frame that I want to replace because it
>feels cumbersome. It has been mostly upgraded to an Ultegra drivetrain, and it
>still has cheaper Mavic wheels. If I got a good frame I could borrow (hehe) my
>wife's Rolf Sestrierre wheels if I felt like I "needed" them. LBS guy won't
>sell me an aluminum frame though. He says they are all too stiff, something
>bad about the dropouts, and break too easily. Mind you, I just got my wife a
>Cannondale CAAD 5 R3000si (used). I just want a good, light frame I can put
>miles on, race if I feel like it, and not worry about rust, without buying
>stinking titanium for stinking Ultegra. Thanks much.

My advice: shop elsewhere. There most certainly are very good
aluminum frames available which do not cost a fortune; several of my
friends have examples.

--
My email address is antispammed;
pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.

[Marten Hoffmann]

schreef ...

> My advice: shop elsewhere. There most certainly are very good
> aluminum frames available which do not cost a fortune; several of my
> friends have examples.

Second the "shop elsewhere" phrase. Everywhere in Bicycle Land you'll
find this kind of Ye Olde Schoole of Thinkinge guys who will claim they
have 33 years of experience. Yeah right: that's 3 years of experience
which date back 30 years :-(

--
Regards,
Marten

[Lewis Campbell]

I really have to laugh at people who HATE aluminum frames so much.

Its not just because I have 5 of them right now. Heck, in the last 20
years I have only owned one aluminum bike but now, all of a sudden, I
got a good deal on a 'dale, so did my girlfriend and a guy we ride
with.

Then, both my girlfriend and I found great looking 'dale frames on
E-bay and so I now have 3 bikes to build up.

Back to the point of hating aluminum frames. :-)

These people who call Cannondale 'crack-n-fail' and all the other
silly, nasty, things they say, what do these people think about when
they are flying on an airplane?????


Lewis.

*************************
(Jim Flom) wrote in message >...
> Are aluminum frames "still" "bad?" This LBS guy that I am gravitating to (by
> virtue of geography and I bought my good bike there) will flat out NOT sell me
> an aluminum frame. This would not be for my main ride. This is a back-up,
> wet-weather, preeminently affordable yet raceable frame I am looking for. I'm
> looking for a great deal on a new alu frame for my backup bike. Aside from my
> good bike, I ride a '98 Raleigh R 500 frame that I want to replace because it
> feels cumbersome. It has been mostly upgraded to an Ultegra drivetrain, and it
> still has cheaper Mavic wheels. If I got a good frame I could borrow (hehe) my
> wife's Rolf Sestrierre wheels if I felt like I "needed" them. LBS guy won't
> sell me an aluminum frame though. He says they are all too stiff, something
> bad about the dropouts, and break too easily. Mind you, I just got my wife a
> Cannondale CAAD 5 R3000si (used). I just want a good, light frame I can put
> miles on, race if I feel like it, and not worry about rust, without buying
> stinking titanium for stinking Ultegra. Thanks much.
>
> Jim

[AndresMuro]

Aluminum frames are fine, and inexpensive too,

Andres

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

james-<< This LBS guy that I am gravitating to (by
virtue of geography and I bought my good bike there) will flat out NOT sell me
an aluminum frame. This would not be for my main ride. This is a back-up,
wet-weather, preeminently affordable yet raceable frame I am looking for.
>><BR><BR>

Find the size and buy elsewhere..Does the guy even sell aluminum framesets??

If he does and will not sell ya one, that's one thing, but if he doesn't,
that's HIS choice.

I don't care what people say, they do ride different than other materials...no
doubt.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

andres-<< Aluminum frames are fine, and inexpensive too, >><BR><BR>

Some are and some are outrageously expensive...

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

[ajames54]

On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:53:46 +0200, Marten Hoffmann
> wrote:

schreef ...
>
>> My advice: shop elsewhere. There most certainly are very good
>> aluminum frames available which do not cost a fortune; several of my
>> friends have examples.
>
>Second the "shop elsewhere" phrase. Everywhere in Bicycle Land you'll
>find this kind of Ye Olde Schoole of Thinkinge guys who will claim they
>have 33 years of experience. Yeah right: that's 3 years of experience
>which date back 30 years :-(

Thirded, but I used to love those guys...they were so easy to
sell against. OTOH to give the guy credit it may be simply that
all the Aluminum frames HE sells are crap .. A Huffy is a Huffy
no matter what you make it out of....

[Boyd Speerschneider]

"S. Anderson" > wrote in
:

<snip>

> IMHO, there's a lot of nonsense that goes on about alu frames,
> specifically about "ride quality" and that type of stuff. There's
> nothing wrong from an aluminum frame compared to any other frame. If
> you could perform some type of blind test between an alu frame and other
> frame materials, I doubt many would be able to tell the difference.
> There are good reasons to buy other materials, but they're not related
> to ride. Steel can be straightened after a crash, re-brazed if a
> dropout breaks etc. But you can get a very good alu frame very cheap
> that will kick an equivalent steel frame's arse in weight and stiffness.
> I've always liked steel (I'm old-school..) because of the ease of
> repair, but I bought an alu MTB frame to see how it is and frankly it's
> quite fine in all ways compared to steel. I think composites have the
> potential to offer a better ride than more conventional materials
> because of the construction methods. However, I'm not wild about most
> current composite frame's durability.
>
> My $0.02CDN worth,
>
> Scott..

While this is true, I think it should be noted that most alluminum frames
(at least alluminum road frames) come with a standardized replaceable rear
derailleur hanger. In the even of a right side crash, if the hanger is
bent over, just replace it for $10.

- Boyd S.

[andres muro]

You are right, and probably the most expensive ones are the most
unreliable. The cheap, heavy ones, made in aisa are reliable. They are
not really that heavy either. They are not spectacular in any way.
They are made by the thousands, in a big factory and in only three or
four sizes. Not much in terms of craftmaship, detail and uniqueness.
However, they'll make a reliable inexpensive bike that can be
raceworthy.

Andres

(Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote in message >...
> andres-<< Aluminum frames are fine, and inexpensive too, >><BR><BR>
>
> Some are and some are outrageously expensive...
>
> Peter Chisholm
> Vecchio's Bicicletteria
> 1833 Pearl St.
> Boulder, CO, 80302
> (303)440-3535
> http://www.vecchios.com
> "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

[Sorni]

"Marten Hoffmann" > wrote in message
...
> schreef ...
> > "Tim McNamara" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > In article >,
> > > "swamprun" > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Troll
> > >
> > > Actually, Swampy, not a troll. Jim Flom is a long-time participant in
> > > these here newsgroups.
> >
> > Pretty sure he was joking.
> >
> > Bill "or she, I suppose" S.
>
> Unfortunately not; this kind of "aluminium bikes are no good" guys are
> still to be found among bicycle "experts" ;-}

I know, but in this case I *think* swamprun was just doing a deadpan reply
to the subject ("not a troll" -- "troll").

FWIW, I just bought a Klein Team Q-carbon (aluminum frame w/carbon seat
stays), and the ride seems quite smooth to me. I test rode some steel
frames (~$1200 range), but the Klein (and an entry-level Lemond titanium, of
course) felt much nicer to me.

That gives me TWO bikes that don't match their names, BTW: My
full-suspension Switchblade says "Titus Titanium" on the badge, but is
aluminum; and the Q-carbon (which isn't!)...

Bill "throw 'em a curve ball" S.

[Sorni]

"Lewis Campbell" > wrote in message
om...
>
> These people who call Cannondale 'crack-n-fail' and all the other
> silly, nasty, things they say, what do these people think about when
> they are flying on an airplane?????

Um, "where are my dry-roasted nuts?" "Wonder if she's single." "Man, this
bathroom stinks!"

Bill "and so on" S.

[Jim Flom]

>Find the size and buy elsewhere..Does the guy even sell aluminum
>framesets??If he does and will not sell ya one, that's one thing, but if he
>doesn't,that's HIS choice.I don't care what people say, they do ride
>different than other materials...nodoubt.Peter Chisholm Vecchio's

I thought you were dropping aol. This is the same guy who hates Campy.
Apparently he doesn't sell aluminum, period. He's got every kind of high end
bike -- well, no Cannondales or Treks and so forth -- but even though he sells
Serotta, apparently he won't sell an alu Serotta (if they still make one).

Jim
>
>From:

[Tim McNamara]

In article >,
(Lewis Campbell) wrote:

> These people who call Cannondale 'crack-n-fail' and all the other
> silly, nasty, things they say, what do these people think about
> when they are flying on an airplane?????

I think I'm very glad that:

(1) passenger planes cost millions of dollars and thus the airline has
a vested interest in superb maintenance; and

(2) most countries have stringent safety inspection standards for
airplances.

As far as Crack'n'fail frames go, well, they earned their reputation
years ago, and it's hard to live that sort of thing down. Aluminum
frames aren't necessarily bad frames, but too many bike design
decisions are made in the marketing department, not the engineering
department.

[S. Anderson]

"Tim McNamara" > wrote in message
...
>
> I think I'm very glad that:
>
> (1) passenger planes cost millions of dollars and thus the airline has
> a vested interest in superb maintenance; and
>
> (2) most countries have stringent safety inspection standards for
> airplances.
>
> As far as Crack'n'fail frames go, well, they earned their reputation
> years ago, and it's hard to live that sort of thing down. Aluminum
> frames aren't necessarily bad frames, but too many bike design
> decisions are made in the marketing department, not the engineering
> department.

As an aside, I think it's rather odd that we spend so much time and money
researching plane accidents. The number of people dying in plane crashes is
so incredibly small. And yet we spend billions on maintenance,
investigations etc. Meanwhile, SUV's are rolling over after hitting a pop
can killing thousands every year and there's been little legislation about
these incidents. I guess it's the horror factor..

Cheers,

Scott..

[Wayne Menzie]

"S. Anderson" > wrote in
:

> As an aside, I think it's rather odd that we spend so much time and
> money researching plane accidents. The number of people dying in
> plane crashes is so incredibly small. And yet we spend billions on
> maintenance, investigations etc. Meanwhile, SUV's are rolling over
> after hitting a pop can killing thousands every year and there's been
> little legislation about these incidents. I guess it's the horror
> factor..

You're thinking of the actual damage. Focus on the potential damage.

--
Wayne Menzie

[Suzy Jackson]

"S. Anderson" > wrote in message
.. .
> Meanwhile, SUV's are rolling over after hitting a pop
> can killing thousands every year and there's been little legislation about
> these incidents.

And that's a bad thing how???

The more SUVs that roll over, or explode, or otherwise discombobulate the
better, IMHO. Same goes for the morons who choose to drive them.

Regards,

Suzy

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

james-<< I thought you were dropping aol. This is the same guy who hates
Campy.
Apparently he doesn't sell aluminum, period. >><BR><BR>

Sounds backwards...

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

andres-<< You are right, and probably the most expensive ones are the most
unreliable. The cheap, heavy ones, made in aisa are reliable. They are
not really that heavy either. >><BR><BR>

I agree...weigh about what a comparable steel frameset weighs...about 3.7
pounds...

<< However, they'll make a reliable inexpensive bike that can be
raceworthy. >><BR><BR>

Agree again...seems all materials suffer from 'this guy told me that'.....

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"