Better Road Signs or NO Road Signs

[rooman[_76_]]

I've long believed road users would be better drivers/riders/pedestrians
if they had to watch out for road conditions and didnt get "comfort" or
"courage"from road signs (which encouraged many to drive on or above
the limit).

I feel bike riders fair best on the road and not on marked paths and
bike lanes and road signs lull many into a false sense of security.

So its interesting to hear the news from Holland.
(-courtesy- RACV- *RoyalAuto* April07)

-A town which removed ALL its road signs is claiming a 10% drop in
traffic casualties and a reduction in average speeds. The council in
Makkinga removed all road markings and signs three years ago and a
neighbouring town followed suit, but using different coloured road
surfaces to guide traffic.-

-European road saftey experts say the success of the move can be put
down to "unsafe safety": because the absence of signs means drivers
are unsure where to drive, they become more cautious-.


--
rooman

[MikeyOz[_27_]]

rooman Wrote:
>
> -A town which removed ALL its road signs is claiming a 10% drop in
> traffic casualties and a reduction in average speeds. The council in
> Makkinga removed all road markings and signs three years ago and a
> neighbouring town followed suit, but using different coloured road
> surfaces to guide traffic.-
>
> -European road saftey experts say the success of the move can be put
> down to "unsafe safety": because the absence of signs means drivers
> are unsure where to drive, they become more cautious-.

The human mind in all its glory..... I guess the only concern I would
have with regards to Cyclists is Europeans treat cyclists differently
than in Australia, in Europe they are not considered Moving Targets.

Makes sense, but would it work over here and where would you trial it ?
Seems like common sense and the sort of thing that works, which means
there is no chance of it being used in Australia.


--
MikeyOz

[Bleve]

On Apr 23, 11:13 am, MikeyOz <MikeyOz.2pg...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> rooman Wrote:
>
>
>
> > -A town which removed ALL its road signs is claiming a 10% drop in
> > traffic casualties and a reduction in average speeds. The council in
> > Makkinga removed all road markings and signs three years ago and a
> > neighbouring town followed suit, but using different coloured road
> > surfaces to guide traffic.-
>
> > -European road saftey experts say the success of the move can be put
> > down to "unsafe safety": because the absence of signs means drivers
> > are unsure where to drive, they become more cautious-.
>
> The human mind in all its glory..... I guess the only concern I would
> have with regards to Cyclists is Europeans treat cyclists differently
> than in Australia, in Europe they are not considered Moving Targets.
>
> Makes sense, but would it work over here and where would you trial it ?
> Seems like common sense and the sort of thing that works, which means
> there is no chance of it being used in Australia.

Apart from Mikey's cynicism (I don't feel like a moving target when I
ride), I wonder how well that sort of thing scales. It's fine to have
anarchy in small scale applications - like communism, it works in
small communities, but may not scale all that well. Once a place gets
big enough that not everyone knows everyone, these sorts of things can
often fall to bits. So how well does it scale outside of small
towns? And was the test site a small or a large town?

[TimC]

On 2007-04-23, Bleve (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> It's fine to have anarchy in small scale applications - like
> communism, it works in small communities, but may not scale all that
> well. Once a place gets big enough that not everyone knows
> everyone, these sorts of things can often fall to bits.

Incidentally, I never know whether to abuse someone in this town for
nearly running me over. What if they recognise me? What if I abuse
someone I end up working with? Will it be awkward? Argh, hard
decisions!

--
TimC
NOP NOP NOP NOP <bang> NOP NOP <bang> <ouch>
-- TimC spinning in the corner.

[mitosis[_4_]]

rooman Wrote:
> I've long believed road users would be better drivers/riders/pedestrians
> if they had to watch out for road conditions and didnt get "comfort" or
> "courage"from road signs (which encouraged many to drive on or above
> the limit).
>
> I feel bike riders fair best on the road and not on marked paths and
> bike lanes and road signs lull many into a false sense of security.
>
> So its interesting to hear the news from Holland.
> (-courtesy- RACV- *RoyalAuto* April07)
>
> -A town which removed ALL its road signs is claiming a 10% drop in
> traffic casualties and a reduction in average speeds. The council in
> Makkinga removed all road markings and signs three years ago and a
> neighbouring town followed suit, but using different coloured road
> surfaces to guide traffic.-
>
> -European road saftey experts say the success of the move can be put
> down to "unsafe safety": because the absence of signs means drivers
> are unsure where to drive, they become more cautious-.

I'm a supporter for no road signs.

Over the years as people get used to having signs around (and then
ignoring them) we have had to do more and more to get their attention.
Brighter colours, bigger signs, more frequent signs, flashing lights on
signs and the biggest joke of them all signs to tell us there is a sign
coming up.

Let people assess the conditions and drive/ride accordingly. Don't
blame road conditions for crashes. If the road is poor, drive more
slowly.


--
mitosis

[Zebee Johnstone]

In aus.bicycle on Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:10:53 +1000
mitosis > wrote:
>
> Over the years as people get used to having signs around (and then
> ignoring them) we have had to do more and more to get their attention.
> Brighter colours, bigger signs, more frequent signs, flashing lights on
> signs and the biggest joke of them all signs to tell us there is a sign
> coming up.

Umm.. so what's the difference between signs being ignored and no
signs?

Everyone who is ignoring a sign is using their own judgement....

Zebee

[Bleve]

On Apr 23, 12:10 pm, mitosis <mitosis.2ph...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> rooman Wrote:
>
>
>
> > I've long believed road users would be better drivers/riders/pedestrians
> > if they had to watch out for road conditions and didnt get "comfort" or
> > "courage"from road signs (which encouraged many to drive on or above
> > the limit).
>
> > I feel bike riders fair best on the road and not on marked paths and
> > bike lanes and road signs lull many into a false sense of security.
>
> > So its interesting to hear the news from Holland.
> > (-courtesy- RACV- *RoyalAuto* April07)
>
> > -A town which removed ALL its road signs is claiming a 10% drop in
> > traffic casualties and a reduction in average speeds. The council in
> > Makkinga removed all road markings and signs three years ago and a
> > neighbouring town followed suit, but using different coloured road
> > surfaces to guide traffic.-
>
> > -European road saftey experts say the success of the move can be put
> > down to "unsafe safety": because the absence of signs means drivers
> > are unsure where to drive, they become more cautious-.
>
> I'm a supporter for no road signs.
>
> Over the years as people get used to having signs around (and then
> ignoring them) we have had to do more and more to get their attention.
> Brighter colours, bigger signs, more frequent signs, flashing lights on
> signs and the biggest joke of them all signs to tell us there is a sign
> coming up.
>
> Let people assess the conditions and drive/ride accordingly. Don't
> blame road conditions for crashes. If the road is poor, drive more
> slowly.

And world peace!

[mitosis[_5_]]

Zebee Johnstone Wrote:
> In aus.bicycle on Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:10:53 +1000
> mitosis > wrote:
> >
> > Over the years as people get used to having signs around (and then
> > ignoring them) we have had to do more and more to get their
> attention.
> > Brighter colours, bigger signs, more frequent signs, flashing lights
> on
> > signs and the biggest joke of them all signs to tell us there is a
> sign
> > coming up.
>
> Umm.. so what's the difference between signs being ignored and no
> signs?
>
> Everyone who is ignoring a sign is using their own judgement....
>
> Zebee
Maybe, or zombie drivers are so reassured by the presence of signs, as
they are by the technology that they are assured will prevent them
crashing or getting injured, that they feel infallible and therefore
don't assess the conditions. Everyone who crashes wants to blame
someone else.

World peace is another thread.


--
mitosis

[Dave]

On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:44:22 -0700, Bleve wrote:

> Apart from Mikey's cynicism (I don't feel like a moving target when I
> ride)

You should speed up a bit then. Do you know anyone who could give you some
training tips?

--
Dave Hughes |
"When you need a helpline for breakfast cereals, it's time to start
thinking about tearing down civilisation and giving the ants a go"
- Chris King

[Bleve]

On Apr 23, 1:25 pm, "Dave" > wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:44:22 -0700, Bleve wrote:
> > Apart from Mikey's cynicism (I don't feel like a moving target when I
> > ride)
>
> You should speed up a bit then. Do you know anyone who could give you some
> training tips?

I've started taking Oxy Shots and I am buying a Cervello Soloist, and
two disk wheels and some aerobars, will that help?

[warrwych[_30_]]

Bleve Wrote:
> On Apr 23, 1:25 pm, "Dave" > wrote:
> > On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:44:22 -0700, Bleve wrote:
> > > Apart from Mikey's cynicism (I don't feel like a moving target when
> I
> > > ride)
> >
> > You should speed up a bit then. Do you know anyone who could give you
> some
> > training tips?
>
> I've started taking Oxy Shots and I am buying a Cervello Soloist, and
> two disk wheels and some aerobars, will that help?

you can borrow my aero helmet if you like, Bleve. I have a book
somewhere on training too - you can borrow it if you like :p


--
warrwych

[MikeyOz[_29_]]

Dave Wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:44:22 -0700, Bleve wrote:
>
> > Apart from Mikey's cynicism (I don't feel like a moving target when
> I
> > ride)
>
> You should speed up a bit then. Do you know anyone who could give you
> some
> training tips?
>

I am not being cynical, I am expressing what it feels like when I ride,
just because you don't does not mean other people don't.

I am definately a supporter for no signs but then what happens is
something will happen, and the person will claim, well there was no
sign, so I did not know I was doing anything wrong. Common sense has
no place in todays society, lawyers have made sure of that, thats not
cynical, that is what I mean't by it won't happen in Australia.

I am going to be of the mentality these days that I am a moving target,
hopefully will aid in survival on the roads.

This mornings stroll was pretty good though, even had a driver wait for
me when he could have gone, a thank you wave greeted him.


--
MikeyOz

[MikeyOz[_30_]]

Bleve Wrote:
>
> I've started taking Oxy Shots and I am buying a Cervello Soloist, and
> two disk wheels and some aerobars, will that help?

Nope, you still need brains, so just forget it :p


--
MikeyOz

[Bleve]

On Apr 23, 2:47 pm, MikeyOz <MikeyOz.2ph...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> Dave Wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:44:22 -0700, Bleve wrote:
>
> > > Apart from Mikey's cynicism (I don't feel like a moving target when
> > I
> > > ride)
>
> > You should speed up a bit then. Do you know anyone who could give you
> > some
> > training tips?
>
> I am not being cynical, I am expressing what it feels like when I ride,
> just because you don't does not mean other people don't.

And then, you write a very cynical appraisal of "the system"
immediately afterwards!

> I am definately a supporter for no signs but then what happens is
> something will happen, and the person will claim, well there was no
> sign, so I did not know I was doing anything wrong. Common sense has
> no place in todays society, lawyers have made sure of that, thats not
> cynical, that is what I mean't by it won't happen in Australia.

Err, yes it is, Mikey. That's a textbook example. There's probably
some good reasons for why it hasn't been tried (although I imagine in
the dim dark days before the Internet there were plenty of places
around Australia that had sparse road signs, so perhaps it has been
done before?), or maybe there isn't good reasons, but "it's all the
fault of the lawyers"?

> I am going to be of the mentality these days that I am a moving target,
> hopefully will aid in survival on the roads.

That's one (unfortunate, but understandable) strategy. What works for
me is

"I'm a vehicle, with as much right to use the road as anyone else, I'm
also less visible and have to ride defensively and predictably and be
where other road users are looking for me, attempting to predict and
anticipate the actions of drivers and other riders, they're not out to
get me, but they're not generally looking out for me, as just like me,
they are looking out for themselves first".

If "they're all out to kill me" works for you, then that's good, but
it does seem pretty sad, and must be very stressful. That would ruin
my pleasure in riding, if I felt like that all the time.

[scotty72[_20_]]

rooman Wrote:
> I've long believed road users would be better drivers/riders/pedestrians
> if they had to watch out for road conditions and didnt get "comfort" or
> "courage"from road signs (which encouraged many to drive on or above
> the limit).
>
> I feel bike riders fair best on the road and not on marked paths and
> bike lanes and road signs lull many into a false sense of security.
>
> So its interesting to hear the news from Holland.
> (-courtesy- RACV- *RoyalAuto* April07)
>
> -A town which removed ALL its road signs is claiming a 10% drop in
> traffic casualties and a reduction in average speeds. The council in
> Makkinga removed all road markings and signs three years ago and a
> neighbouring town followed suit, but using different coloured road
> surfaces to guide traffic.-
>
> -European road saftey experts say the success of the move can be put
> down to "unsafe safety": because the absence of signs means drivers
> are unsure where to drive, they become more cautious-.I remember seeing a tv programme about (presumably) this place. It
seemed to work like a charm. Even their busiest intersections were
dramatically calmed. Accident rates plummented to near zero and av
speeds went down too.

The comment posted here that Aust has too many signs that seem to get
bigger and flashier is so true. Still, people ignore them. The standard
excuse for disobeying school zone 40 km/h is either a) "me didn't know
me was in da school zone." (despite huge signs) or b) "me didn't knows
it was school time" (because they are just so random).

Now, many schools have HUGE signs that flash red and orange at the
applicable times and still nearly everyone speeds along.

There are far too many signs that detract from an expectation of common
sense and personal responsibility.

Scotty


--
scotty72

[warrwych[_32_]]

scotty72 Wrote:
> I remember seeing a tv programme about (presumably) this place. It
> seemed to work like a charm. Even their busiest intersections were
> dramatically calmed. Accident rates plummented to near zero and av
> speeds went down too.
>
> The comment posted here that Aust has too many signs that seem to get
> bigger and flashier is so true. Still, people ignore them. The standard
> excuse for disobeying school zone 40 km/h is either a) "me didn't know
> me was in da school zone." (despite huge signs) or b) "me didn't knows
> it was school time" (because they are just so random).
>
> Now, many schools have HUGE signs that flash red and orange at the
> applicable times and still nearly everyone speeds along.
>
> There are far too many signs that detract from an expectation of common
> sense and personal responsibility.
>
> Scotty

the best (in terms of fellow driver courtesy & politeness, and safety)
drive home in peak hour traffic, was recently (Feb???) when large
sections of Melbourne blacked out and traffic lights were out all over
the place. I was dreading the drive home, but instead, traffic was calm
and sensible.


--
warrwych

[Zebee Johnstone]

In aus.bicycle on 22 Apr 2007 22:21:15 -0700
Bleve > wrote:
> "I'm a vehicle, with as much right to use the road as anyone else, I'm
> also less visible and have to ride defensively and predictably and be
> where other road users are looking for me, attempting to predict and
> anticipate the actions of drivers and other riders, they're not out to
> get me, but they're not generally looking out for me, as just like me,
> they are looking out for themselves first".

Powered or unpowered, 2 wheels or 4, works for me.
>
> If "they're all out to kill me" works for you, then that's good, but
> it does seem pretty sad, and must be very stressful. That would ruin
> my pleasure in riding, if I felt like that all the time.

I've never really understood how to put that idea into action.

After all, if they were trying to kill me the'd have me, no question.
I'd have to have large solid objects between every car and me all the
time. I'd never lanesplit, and never travel beside or in any way in
front of a car. I'd have to always give way to any vehicle so that
they'd have to turn really sharply to get me.

I just can't see how it's possible to do any riding if you are
assuming they are actively trying to kill you because the
opportunities for them doing so are legion.

So how do people who say this is how they ride cope? How do they
manage to always be in such a position that no car anywhere has any
chance at all of ever hitting them (we'll presume no snipers) and
still actually get where they are going?

Zebee

[Bleve]

On Apr 23, 3:53 pm, Zebee Johnstone > wrote:
> In aus.bicycle on 22 Apr 2007 22:21:15 -0700
>
> Bleve > wrote:
> > "I'm a vehicle, with as much right to use the road as anyone else, I'm
> > also less visible and have to ride defensively and predictably and be
> > where other road users are looking for me, attempting to predict and
> > anticipate the actions of drivers and other riders, they're not out to
> > get me, but they're not generally looking out for me, as just like me,
> > they are looking out for themselves first".
>
> Powered or unpowered, 2 wheels or 4, works for me.
>
>
>
> > If "they're all out to kill me" works for you, then that's good, but
> > it does seem pretty sad, and must be very stressful. That would ruin
> > my pleasure in riding, if I felt like that all the time.
>
> I've never really understood how to put that idea into action.
>
> After all, if they were trying to kill me the'd have me, no question.
> I'd have to have large solid objects between every car and me all the
> time. I'd never lanesplit, and never travel beside or in any way in
> front of a car. I'd have to always give way to any vehicle so that
> they'd have to turn really sharply to get me.
>
> I just can't see how it's possible to do any riding if you are
> assuming they are actively trying to kill you because the
> opportunities for them doing so are legion.
>
> So how do people who say this is how they ride cope? How do they
> manage to always be in such a position that no car anywhere has any
> chance at all of ever hitting them (we'll presume no snipers) and
> still actually get where they are going?


For a short amount of time when I was learning to ride motorbikes, I
used to feel like that (moving target etc) but I found that I was
incredibly stressed doing so and didn't enjoy riding. Especially
though high traffic merging areas (like the bridge across the Swan R
in Perth that goes to Vic Park, I can't remember its name?). I'd get
to places in a sweat with a huge sense of relief.

After a bit of good instruction from a very experienced and clueful
rider I did a lot of riding with, that changed into the attitude I've
held since (as described above). Much less stressful, much more
enjoyable. I've been in two collisions (bikes, motor and push) in my
whole time on the road, both of which I place a significant chunk of
responsibility for at my feet (I was tired, wasn't thinking
properly). If I didn't enjoy riding (motor or push) I'd not do it.
I'd walk or catch trains.

Mikey had, if I recall correctly, a nasty prang a while back where
some drongo turned right into him, it's quite a common collision I
believe, and while he was unlucky to have experienced it, it's not
that uncommon a class of accident. From a defensive riding position,
it's interesting to ask what he (and the rest of us) can learn from
his collision. I know I'm very wary of coming up to intersections
with oncoming traffic where there's a chance that a driver or rider
can turn if they haven't seen me or have misjudged my speed (or, the
odd psycopath who just pushes because they own the road, but they're,
IME, *very* rare). I tend, at that point, to watch oncoming traffic
very closely, especially at night - I do my best to make some sort of
eye contact with the driver if possible (not always possible, of
course ... esp on country roads, like where Mikey's collision
occurred). and if they show signs of slowing to turn I generally also
slow down and watch them closely. If they do turn, if you're watching
for it, you have a better chance of taking successful evasive action.
It's only (IME) stressful when there's more than one car to keep track
of.

Those of you familiar with Canterbury Rd heading towards the city in
Melbourne, coming down the hill near Mailing Rd will know the type of
intersection where this sort of collision is quite likely to occur.
There's *2* right turn opportunities one right behind the other, so
one is blinded by the second if there's any traffic, and there always
is. Despite it being a 45km/h section of road if rolling, I always
slow down to about 30 and watch *very* closely through that
intersection, and in 3 years of riding it most days a week, never had
an incident of note accordingly.

A key question to ask is "Why didn't they see me?" and "How can I
reduce the chances of not being seen?".
I don't think the answer is paranoia.

[MikeyOz[_31_]]

Bleve Wrote:
>
> If "they're all out to kill me" works for you, then that's good, but
> it does seem pretty sad, and must be very stressful. That would ruin
> my pleasure in riding, if I felt like that all the time.

Just out of curiosity have you ever been cleaned up by a car while on a
pushie on the road ? I am not saying because I have, I know everything,
just curious if it has happened to you ? Because ever since that
happened to me I have never been the same since, did I expect to be,
NO, I can't help it when ever I see a car attempting to do the same
thing that happend to me previously I get nervous and jittery, but its
getting better.

As for my cynical point of view, I probably am a bit cynical but living
in the society we live in and having seen the things I have seen in life
and also the things I have seen in my professional life, I am really not
surprised.

I did not say the Lawyers were responsible for everything, but they are
definately a major part of why common sense no longer exists today,
because a Lawyer somewhere is ready at the mention of money to defend
someone who has clearly shown a complete lack of common sense and will
usually defend the person sucessfully.


--
MikeyOz

[Fractal]

"scotty72" > wrote in message
...
>
> rooman Wrote:
>> I've long believed road users would be better drivers/riders/pedestrians
>> if they had to watch out for road conditions and didnt get "comfort" or
>> "courage"from road signs (which encouraged many to drive on or above
>> the limit).
>>
>> I feel bike riders fair best on the road and not on marked paths and
>> bike lanes and road signs lull many into a false sense of security.
>>
>> So its interesting to hear the news from Holland.
>> (-courtesy- RACV- *RoyalAuto* April07)
>>
>> -A town which removed ALL its road signs is claiming a 10% drop in
>> traffic casualties and a reduction in average speeds. The council in
>> Makkinga removed all road markings and signs three years ago and a
>> neighbouring town followed suit, but using different coloured road
>> surfaces to guide traffic.-
>>
>> -European road saftey experts say the success of the move can be put
>> down to "unsafe safety": because the absence of signs means drivers
>> are unsure where to drive, they become more cautious-.I remember seeing a
>> tv programme about (presumably) this place.


Do a Google on Hans Mondeman to see stuff on the traffic engineer who is
doing this in Holland. Or Hamilton-Baillie in UK. Eco-plan also has links to
Mondeman, even a video of him in Groningen at http://tinyurl.com/39kzwq .

I think it is mainly being trialled in towns or local suburban centres etc,
not major cities, although Groningen is pop. 180,000. The Dutch have been
doing "Woonerfen" for years, where they design or encourage local
residential streets to be seen as backyards with gardens and chairs acting
as traffic calming devices and no kerbs, and car drivers are expected to
behave as visitors, who have no special right of way, as I understand it. A
bit alien to most Aussie cities.

Following animation shows the general idea I hope.

http://www.hamilton-baillie.co.uk/gifs/gallery/cartoon_anim1.gif

[cfsmtb[_136_]]

scotty72 Wrote:
> I remember seeing a tv programme about (presumably) this place. It
> seemed to work like a charm. Even their busiest intersections were
> dramatically calmed. Accident rates plummented to near zero and av
> speeds went down too.

This subject has been mentioned on a.b before, and I'm slightly amazed
no ones quoted the name of Hans Monderman yet. Ok, someone has now.
http://www.ecoplan.org/wtpp/general/monderman-details.htm#bio

Read this excellent Wired interview where Monderman expounds his
theories. His six points for better intersections, which hardly are
unknown or illogical are at the end of the article. Full text below for
those with limited internerd access. ;)

Roads Gone Wild
No street signs. No crosswalks. No accidents. Surprise: Making driving
seem more dangerous could make it safer.
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.12/traffic.html

Hans Monderman is a traffic engineer who hates traffic signs. Oh, he
can put up with the well-placed speed limit placard or a dangerous
curve warning on a major highway, but Monderman considers most signs to
be not only annoying but downright dangerous. To him, they are an
admission of failure, a sign - literally - that a road designer
somewhere hasn't done his job. "The trouble with traffic engineers is
that when there's a problem with a road, they always try to add
something," Monderman says. "To my mind, it's much better to remove
things."

Monderman is one of the leaders of a new breed of traffic engineer -
equal parts urban designer, social scientist, civil engineer, and
psychologist. The approach is radically counterintuitive: Build roads
that seem dangerous, and they'll be safer.

Monderman and I are tooling around the rural two-lane roads of northern
Holland, where he works as a road designer. He wants to show me a
favorite intersection he designed. It's a busy junction that doesn't
contain a single traffic signal, road sign, or directional marker, an
approach that turns eight decades of traditional traffic thinking on
its head.

Wearing a striped tie and crisp blue blazer with shiny gold buttons,
Monderman looks like the sort of stout, reliable fellow you'd see on a
package of pipe tobacco. He's worked as a civil engineer and traffic
specialist for more than 30 years and, for a time, ran his own driving
school. Droll and reserved, he's easy to underestimate - but his ideas
on road design, safety, and city planning are being adopted from
Scandinavia to the Sunshine State.

Riding in his green Saab, we glide into Drachten, a 17th-century
village that has grown into a bustling town of more than 40,000. We
pass by the performing arts center, and suddenly, there it is: the
Intersection. It's the confluence of two busy two-lane roads that
handle 20,000 cars a day, plus thousands of bicyclists and pedestrians.
Several years ago, Monderman ripped out all the traditional instruments
used by traffic engineers to influence driver behavior - traffic
lights, road markings, and some pedestrian crossings - and in their
place created a roundabout, or traffic circle.

The circle is remarkable for what it doesn't contain: signs or signals
telling drivers how fast to go, who has the right-of-way, or how to
behave. There are no lane markers or curbs separating street and
sidewalk, so it's unclear exactly where the car zone ends and the
pedestrian zone begins. To an approaching driver, the intersection is
utterly ambiguous - and that's the point.

Monderman and I stand in silence by the side of the road a few minutes,
watching the stream of motorists, cyclists, and pedestrians make their
way through the circle, a giant concrete mixing bowl of transport.
Somehow it all works. The drivers slow to gauge the intentions of
crossing bicyclists and walkers. Negotiations over right-of-way are
made through fleeting eye contact. Remarkably, traffic moves smoothly
around the circle with hardly a brake screeching, horn honking, or
obscene gesture.

"I love it!" Monderman says at last. "Pedestrians and cyclists used to
avoid this place, but now, as you see, the cars look out for the
cyclists, the cyclists look out for the pedestrians, and everyone looks
out for each other. You can't expect traffic signs and street markings
to encourage that sort of behavior. You have to build it into the
design of the road."

It's no surprise that the Dutch, a people renowned for social
experimentation in practically every facet of life, have embraced new
ideas in traffic management. But variations of Monderman's less-is-more
approach to traffic engineering are spreading around the globe, showing
up in Austria, Denmark, France, Germany, Spain, Sweden, the UK, and the
US.

In Denmark, the town of Christianfield stripped the traffic signs and
signals from its major intersection and cut the number of serious or
fatal accidents a year from three to zero. In England, towns in Suffolk
and Wiltshire have removed lane lines from secondary roads in an effort
to slow traffic - experts call it "psychological traffic calming." A
dozen other towns in the UK are looking to do the same. A study of
center-line removal in Wiltshire, conducted by the Transport Research
Laboratory, a UK transportation consultancy, found that drivers with no
center line to guide them drove more safely and had a 35 percent
decrease in the number of accidents.

In the US, traffic engineers are beginning to rethink the dictum that
the car is king and pedestrians are well advised to get the hell off
the road. In West Palm Beach, Florida, planners have redesigned several
major streets, removing traffic signals and turn lanes, narrowing the
roadbed, and bringing people and cars into much closer contact. The
result: slower traffic, fewer accidents, shorter trip times.

"I think the future of transportation in our cities is slowing down the
roads," says Ian Lockwood, the transportation manager for West Palm
Beach during the project and now a transportation and design
consultant. "When you try to speed things up, the system tends to fail,
and then you're stuck with a design that moves traffic inefficiently and
is hostile to pedestrians and human exchange."

The common thread in the new approach to traffic engineering is a
recognition that the way you build a road affects far more than the
movement of vehicles. It determines how drivers behave on it, whether
pedestrians feel safe to walk alongside it, what kinds of businesses
and housing spring up along it. "A wide road with a lot of signs is
telling a story," Monderman says. "It's saying, go ahead, don't worry,
go as fast as you want, there's no need to pay attention to your
surroundings. And that's a very dangerous message."

We drive on to another project Monderman designed, this one in the
nearby village of Oosterwolde. What was once a conventional road
junction with traffic lights has been turned into something resembling
a public square that mixes cars, pedestrians, and cyclists. About 5,000
cars pass through the square each day, with no serious accidents since
the redesign in 1999. "To my mind, there is one crucial test of a
design such as this," Monderman says. "Here, I will show you."

With that, Monderman tucks his hands behind his back and begins to walk
into the square - backward - straight into traffic, without being able
to see oncoming vehicles. A stream of motorists, bicyclists, and
pedestrians ease around him, instinctively yielding to a man with the
courage of his convictions.

From the beginning, a central premise guiding American road design was
that driving and walking were utterly incompatible modes of transport,
and that the two should be segregated as much as possible.

The planned suburban community of Radburn, New Jersey, founded in 1929
as "a town for the motor age," took the segregation principle to its
logical extreme. Radburn's key design element was the strict separation
of vehicles and people; cars were afforded their own generously
proportioned network, while pedestrians were tucked safely away in
residential "super blocks," which often terminated in quiet cul de
sacs.

Parents could let kids walk to the local school without fearing that
they might be mowed down in the street. Radburn quickly became a
template for other communities in the US and Britain, and many of its
underlying assumptions were written directly into traffic codes.

The psychology of driver behavior was largely unknown. Traffic
engineers viewed vehicle movement the same way a hydraulics engineer
approaches water moving through a pipe - to increase the flow, all you
have to do is make the pipe fatter.

Roads became wider and more "forgiving" - roadside trees were cut down
and other landscape elements removed in an effort to decrease
fatalities. Road signs, rather than road architecture, became the chief
way to enforce behavior. Pedestrians, meanwhile, were kept out of the
traffic network entirely or limited to defined crossing points.

The strict segregation of cars and people turned out to have unintended
consequences on towns and cities. Wide roads sliced through residential
areas, dividing neighborhoods, discouraging pedestrian activity, and
destroying the human scale of the urban environment.

The old ways of traffic engineering - build it bigger, wider, faster -
aren't going to disappear overnight. But one look at West Palm Beach
suggests an evolution is under way. When the city of 82,000 went ahead
with its plan to convert several wide thoroughfares into narrow two-way
streets, traffic slowed so much that people felt it was safe to walk
there. The increase in pedestrian traffic attracted new shops and
apartment buildings. Property values along Clematis Street, one of the
town's main drags, have more than doubled since it was reconfigured.

"In West Palm, people were just fed up with the way things were, and
sometimes, that's what it takes," says Lockwood, the town's former
transportation manager. "What we really need is a complete paradigm
shift in traffic engineering and city planning to break away from the
conventional ideas that have got us in this mess. There's still this
notion that we should build big roads everywhere because the car
represents personal freedom. Well, that's bull****. The truth is that
most people are prisoners of their cars."

Today some of the most car-oriented areas in the US are rethinking
their approaches to traffic, mainly because they have little choice.
"The old way doesn't work anymore," says Gary Toth, director of project
planning and development for the New Jersey Department of
Transportation. The 2004 Urban Mobility Report, published by the
respected Texas Transportation Institute, shows that traffic congestion
is growing across the nation in towns and cities of all sizes. The
study's conclusion: It's only going to get worse.

Instead of widening congested highways, New Jersey's DOT is urging
neighboring or contiguous towns to connect their secondary streets and
add smaller centers of development, creating a series of linked
minivillages with narrow roads, rather than wide, car-choked highways
strewn with malls. "The cities that continue on their conventional path
with traffic and land use will harm themselves, because people with a
choice will leave," says Lockwood.

"They'll go to places where the quality of life is better, where
there's more human exchange, where the city isn't just designed for
cars. The economy is going to follow the creative class, and they want
to live in areas that have a sense of place. That's why these new ideas
have to catch on. The folly of traditional traffic engineering is all
around us."

Back in Holland, Monderman is fighting his own battle against the folly
of traditional traffic engineering, one sign at a time. "Every road
tells a story," Monderman says. "It's just that so many of our roads
tell the story poorly, or tell the wrong story."

As the new approach to traffic begins to take hold in the US, the road
ahead is unmarked and ambiguous. Hans Monderman couldn't be happier.


How to Build a Better Intersection: Chaos = Cooperation

1. Remove signs: The architecture of the road - not signs and signals -
dictates traffic flow.

2. Install art: The height of the fountain indicates how congested the
intersection is.

3. Share the spotlight: Lights illuminate not only the roadbed, but
also the pedestrian areas.

4. Do it in the road: Cafes extend to the edge of the street, further
emphasizing the idea of shared space.

5. See eye to eye: Right-of-way is negotiated by human interaction,
rather than commonly ignored signs.

6. Eliminate curbs: Instead of a raised curb, sidewalks are denoted by
texture and color.


--
cfsmtb

[Bleve]

On Apr 23, 5:00 pm, MikeyOz <MikeyOz.2ph...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> Bleve Wrote:
>
>
>
> > If "they're all out to kill me" works for you, then that's good, but
> > it does seem pretty sad, and must be very stressful. That would ruin
> > my pleasure in riding, if I felt like that all the time.
>
> Just out of curiosity have you ever been cleaned up by a car while on a
> pushie on the road ?

I've been hit by cars twice while on a motorcycle, but the damage was
far less than you sustained.

> I am not saying because I have, I know everything,
> just curious if it has happened to you ? Because ever since that
> happened to me I have never been the same since, did I expect to be,
> NO, I can't help it when ever I see a car attempting to do the same
> thing that happend to me previously I get nervous and jittery, but its
> getting better.

That's quite understandable, I get absolutely ****scared when I go ski-
ing and have to face my demons (I broke a knee and spent a year unable
to do much after a stupid fall at Hotham). Getting over that is ...
difficult. I still ski, but I get paranoid and have to give up for
the day once I run out of courage. Not the same thing, but I can
extrapolate from that to how I imagine you might feel.

> As for my cynical point of view, I probably am a bit cynical but living
> in the society we live in and having seen the things I have seen in life
> and also the things I have seen in my professional life, I am really not
> surprised.

I didn't mean the term as an insult, but as an accurate description.
A cynic is what a realist calls a pessmist, I think? :)

> I did not say the Lawyers were responsible for everything, but they are
> definately a major part of why common sense no longer exists today,
> because a Lawyer somewhere is ready at the mention of money to defend
> someone who has clearly shown a complete lack of common sense and will
> usually defend the person sucessfully.
>
> --
> MikeyOz

[TimC]

On 2007-04-23, Bleve (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> On Apr 23, 3:53 pm, Zebee Johnstone > wrote:
>> So how do people who say this is how they ride cope? How do they
>> manage to always be in such a position that no car anywhere has any
>> chance at all of ever hitting them (we'll presume no snipers) and
>> still actually get where they are going?
>
> For a short amount of time when I was learning to ride motorbikes, I
> used to feel like that (moving target etc) but I found that I was
> incredibly stressed doing so and didn't enjoy riding. Especially
> though high traffic merging areas (like the bridge across the Swan R
> in Perth that goes to Vic Park, I can't remember its name?). I'd get
> to places in a sweat with a huge sense of relief.

Hey, if it works for researchers, why shouldn't it work for riders?

"Why do you keep doing physics?"

"Because it feels so good when you stop!".

Hey, Tam, where are you anyway? You surely can't have gotten a real
life by now?

--
TimC
ALU n. Arthritic Logic Unit, or (rare) Arithmetic Logic Unit. A random
number generator supplied as standard with all computer systems. --unk

[Bleve]

On Apr 23, 5:16 pm, cfsmtb <cfsmtb.2ph...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> scotty72 Wrote:
>
> > I remember seeing a tv programme about (presumably) this place. It
> > seemed to work like a charm. Even their busiest intersections were
> > dramatically calmed. Accident rates plummented to near zero and av
> > speeds went down too.
>
> This subject has been mentioned on a.b before, and I'm slightly amazed
> no ones quoted the name of Hans Monderman yet. Ok, someone has now.http://www.ecoplan.org/wtpp/general/monderman-details.htm#bio
>


Seen that, interesting (again :) ).

I wonder how well it works in areas with low traffic density? I can
see how well it would work at very busy intersections (the huge
roundabout at the top end of Elizabeth St, for example), but one place
where I suspect it wouldn't work so well would be country roads. I
see plenty of drivers overtaking on blind corners (is there anything
more dangerous to them and any oncoming traffic?) at 100km/h+ assuming
that there'll be no-one coming. Would removing lines alter that
behaviour? And in conjunction with liability rules concerning 'at
fault' etc how would it work? You only have to watch drivers in low
viz or otherwise more hazardous conditions (fog, heavy rain etc) to
see how badly many of them judge what's an appropriate speed to drive
at.

It also seems interesting when compared to the rather dramatic cut in
the road toll with the introduction of compulsory seat belts in the
70's. That, presumably, meant that drivers would feel safer, but the
impact was (and presumably still manifests itself as) a reduction in
deaths on the roads. Not, no doubt, an increase in road user safety
for non-car occupants though.

[Zebee Johnstone]

In aus.bicycle on Mon, 23 Apr 2007 07:10:18 GMT
Fractal > wrote:
>
> I think it is mainly being trialled in towns or local suburban centres etc,
> not major cities, although Groningen is pop. 180,000. The Dutch have been
> doing "Woonerfen" for years, where they design or encourage local
> residential streets to be seen as backyards with gardens and chairs acting
> as traffic calming devices and no kerbs, and car drivers are expected to
> behave as visitors, who have no special right of way, as I understand it. A
> bit alien to most Aussie cities.

Many years ago, there was The Epsom Avenue Cricket Game.

Epsom Avenue is in Belmont, a feeder road right by the racetrack so
already cars had learned to be careful. A ton of nervous animal being
led by some bod 4 foot nothing and 5 stone wringing wet and which is
probably worth more than your house and owned by someone with white
pointer lawyers on retainer and who keeps grudges till they are embalmed
is a road hazard that really encourages people to slow down and be polite.

The cricket game would start up around early December. It was mostly
on weekends but would occasionally happen on weekdays. The wicket was
either a metal wicket or if no one could remember where that was, a metal
rubbish bin. The teams were fluid, the rules normal street cricket.
And the cars just had to wait till the ball was returned to the bowler
because no one was moving till then.

Was a pleasant place to live really.

Zebee

[Zebee Johnstone]

In aus.bicycle on Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:00:13 +1000
MikeyOz > wrote:
>
> Just out of curiosity have you ever been cleaned up by a car while on a
> pushie on the road ? I am not saying because I have, I know everything,
> just curious if it has happened to you ? Because ever since that
> happened to me I have never been the same since, did I expect to be,
> NO, I can't help it when ever I see a car attempting to do the same
> thing that happend to me previously I get nervous and jittery, but its
> getting better.

I was cleaned up by a car on the open road when on my motorcycle. He
was passing trucks on a blind corner. Took about 3 years before I
could handle left hand corners at night without fear.

It does get better. But takes a very long time :(


Zebee

[vaudegiant[_3_]]

warrwych Wrote:
> the best (in terms of fellow driver courtesy & politeness, and safety)
> drive home in peak hour traffic, was recently (Feb???) when large
> sections of Melbourne blacked out and traffic lights were out all over
> the place. I was dreading the drive home, but instead, traffic was calm
> and sensible.

That's because all those cars had airconditioners and the drivers knew
that when they got home their houses would not be a pleasant 18 degrees
('twas pretty hot that day), so no-one was in a hurry to get home as
usual.


Pat


--
vaudegiant

[rooman[_79_]]

The Law of Tort has complicated things in Western society, and Roads
Departments on "legal advice" have developed ever complex signage to
support their assumption they have to "warn" of hazards or
stipulations to encourage compliance with regulations or commonsense
behaviour. Sadly this has got out of hand.

I like signs that tell me where I am or where I can find where I am
going...that is all, signs which give advance warning of 'hazards
ahead et al" delay or end the appreciation of the need to keep a proper
look out at all times.

Keeping a proper lookout is the basis of plaintiff's obligation in a
tort, if the plaintiff does that, then if damage occurs the plaintiff
seeks then to prove that whoever owed a duty of care breached that duty
and the plaintiff mitigated or negated contributory negaligence.

These fundamental principles have got out of hand and now we have
cautionary signs stuck up our nose for every imaginable absurdity and
we have been overun by "Nanny State" protection from ourselves.

This stuff is why we have the term "helicopter mum" and why people are
obese and why bloody minded drivers want bike riders off the roads and
on paths, and a myriad of other social disasters....

The obligation to look out for ourselves and each other has been eroded
to the extent that all problems are the fault of the system...the
government or anyone else but ourselves and the choices we each make in
our lives.

I applaud the action taken by the town(s) in Holland and hope this
trend gathers worldwide momentum.


--
rooman

[cfsmtb[_137_]]

Bleve Wrote:
>
>
> I wonder how well it works in areas with low traffic density? I can
> see how well it would work at very busy intersections (the huge
> roundabout at the top end of Elizabeth St, for example), but one place
> where I suspect it wouldn't work so well would be country roads. I
> see plenty of drivers overtaking on blind corners (is there anything
> more dangerous to them and any oncoming traffic?) at 100km/h+ assuming
> that there'll be no-one coming.

With low traffic density, numerous examples already exist in the inner
suburbs where cars, cyclists and peds have to yield in narrow
residential streets with no lane markings. I see this often, with a car
giving way to an oncoming vehicle by temporarily ducking into the curb.


Sometimes, surprise, surprise, drivers even extend the same courtesy to
me. Given Monderman has developed his traffic model in Europe, some
concessions should be developed for Australian conditions, i.e.: some
signage would be necessary to due vast distances (by comparison to
Europe) country intersections, poor sight lines, geography and level
x-ings.


--
cfsmtb

[PeteSig]

"rooman" wrote:
>
> The Law of Tort has complicated things in Western society, and Roads
> Departments on "legal advice" have developed ever complex signage to
> support their assumption they have to "warn" of hazards or
> stipulations to encourage compliance with regulations or commonsense
> behaviour. Sadly this has got out of hand.
>
> I like signs that tell me where I am or where I can find where I am
> going...that is all, signs which give advance warning of 'hazards
> ahead et al" delay or end the appreciation of the need to keep a proper
> look out at all times.
>
> Keeping a proper lookout is the basis of plaintiff's obligation in a
> tort, if the plaintiff does that, then if damage occurs the plaintiff
> seeks then to prove that whoever owed a duty of care breached that duty
> and the plaintiff mitigated or negated contributory negaligence.
>
> These fundamental principles have got out of hand and now we have
> cautionary signs stuck up our nose for every imaginable absurdity and
> we have been overun by "Nanny State" protection from ourselves.

The extreme of this 'nanny' approach would have to be the range of new
yellow warning signs found today on many of our rural secondary roads, like
this:
http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2208043890074746151zdehFp

Talk about stating the bleedin' obvious!! But I guess without it some drunk
hoon will sue the local council because there was no warning about the
f%#&in' forest!

:mad:

--
Cheers
Peter

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*)

[TimC]

On 2007-04-23, PeteSig (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> "rooman" wrote:
>> These fundamental principles have got out of hand and now we have
>> cautionary signs stuck up our nose for every imaginable absurdity and
>> we have been overun by "Nanny State" protection from ourselves.
>
> The extreme of this 'nanny' approach would have to be the range of new
> yellow warning signs found today on many of our rural secondary roads, like
> this:
> http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2208043890074746151zdehFp

How did I know which sign you were talking about before I even loaded
up teh browser?


We don't have that kind of stupidity in NSW :)

--
TimC
However, my preamp still has a meat-driven knob. -- A. de Boer in ASR

[Richard Sherratt]

On 22 Apr 2007 20:53:39 -0700, Bleve > wrote:

>On Apr 23, 1:25 pm, "Dave" > wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:44:22 -0700, Bleve wrote:
>> > Apart from Mikey's cynicism (I don't feel like a moving target when I
>> > ride)
>>
>> You should speed up a bit then. Do you know anyone who could give you some
>> training tips?
>
>I've started taking Oxy Shots and I am buying a Cervello Soloist, and
>two disk wheels and some aerobars, will that help?

Sorry :-)

It'll just make you look like a prat or ... er ... a triathlete.



--
Regards.
Richard.

[cfsmtb[_138_]]

PeteSig Wrote:
>
> Talk about stating the bleedin' obvious!! But I guess without it some
> drunk
> hoon will sue the local council because there was no warning about the
> f%#&in' forest!

Don't laff, this sort of stuff has already been suggested within (my)
living memory. Like removing street furniture from footpaths so
car-driving folks don't hit it. Tree's too. If I could be ar5ed right
now I'd find those specific recommendations or an archived press
release. But there's things to do...


--
cfsmtb

[Zebee Johnstone]

In aus.bicycle on Mon, 23 Apr 2007 21:46:04 +1000
cfsmtb > wrote:
>
> Don't laff, this sort of stuff has already been suggested within (my)
> living memory. Like removing street furniture from footpaths so
> car-driving folks don't hit it. Tree's too. If I could be ar5ed right
> now I'd find those specific recommendations or an archived press
> release. But there's things to do...

Motorcycle lobby groups are concerned about street furniture because
if a motorcycle comes adrift then a large solid thing close to the
road can kill.

In some places, it's not really a problem, speeds are low enough. In
others it is.

Zebee

[Stuart Lamble[_8_]]

On 2007-04-23, Bleve > wrote:
> I didn't mean the term as an insult, but as an accurate description.
> A cynic is what a realist calls a pessmist, I think? :)

Nope. "Cynic: A word invented by optimists to describe realists." :-)

--
My Usenet From: address now expires after two weeks. If you email me, and
the mail bounces, try changing the bit before the "@" to "usenet".

[Theo Bekkers]

PeteSig wrote:

> The extreme of this 'nanny' approach would have to be the range of new
> yellow warning signs found today on many of our rural secondary
> roads, like this:
> http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2208043890074746151zdehFp
>
> Talk about stating the bleedin' obvious!! But I guess without it some
> drunk hoon will sue the local council because there was no warning
> about the f%#&in' forest!

I'm waiting for the "Warning, Signposts on edge of carriageway" signs.

Theo

[Theo Bekkers]

Zebee Johnstone wrote:

> Many years ago, there was The Epsom Avenue Cricket Game.

> The cricket game would start up around early December. It was mostly
> on weekends but would occasionally happen on weekdays. The wicket was
> either a metal wicket or if no one could remember where that was, a
> metal rubbish bin. The teams were fluid, the rules normal street
> cricket.
> And the cars just had to wait till the ball was returned to the bowler
> because no one was moving till then.

Same where I lived in Northam. Gravel road, no kerbs to delineate the
roadway from the footpath. We played cricket in the summer, kicked a footy
up and down in the winter. Then the Council 'upgraded' it to bitumen,
concrete kerbs, and a footpath. Next thing the 'visitors' thought they owned
the place. And the bitumen would ruin a cricket or football in no time.

Theo

[TimC]

On 2007-04-23, Theo Bekkers (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> PeteSig wrote:
>
>> The extreme of this 'nanny' approach would have to be the range of new
>> yellow warning signs found today on many of our rural secondary
>> roads, like this:
>> http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2208043890074746151zdehFp
>>
>> Talk about stating the bleedin' obvious!! But I guess without it some
>> drunk hoon will sue the local council because there was no warning
>> about the f%#&in' forest!
>
> I'm waiting for the "Warning, Signposts on edge of carriageway" signs.

Does anyone here work in the roads department and has access to some
sign making equipment, who can whip up a few of these to just put in
random spots? That be fun.

--
TimC
"A distributed system is one in which I cannot get something done
because a machine I've never heard of is down." -- Leslie Lamport

[Bleve]

On Apr 24, 7:56 am, Stuart Lamble
> wrote:
> On 2007-04-23, Bleve > wrote:
>
> > I didn't mean the term as an insult, but as an accurate description.
> > A cynic is what a realist calls a pessmist, I think? :)
>
> Nope. "Cynic: A word invented by optimists to describe realists." :-)

That's the one :)

[Plodder]

"cfsmtb" > wrote in message
...
>
> Bleve Wrote:
>>
>>
>> I wonder how well it works in areas with low traffic density? I can
>> see how well it would work at very busy intersections (the huge
>> roundabout at the top end of Elizabeth St, for example), but one place
>> where I suspect it wouldn't work so well would be country roads. I
>> see plenty of drivers overtaking on blind corners (is there anything
>> more dangerous to them and any oncoming traffic?) at 100km/h+ assuming
>> that there'll be no-one coming.
>
> With low traffic density, numerous examples already exist in the inner
> suburbs where cars, cyclists and peds have to yield in narrow
> residential streets with no lane markings. I see this often, with a car
> giving way to an oncoming vehicle by temporarily ducking into the curb.
>
>
> Sometimes, surprise, surprise, drivers even extend the same courtesy to
> me. Given Monderman has developed his traffic model in Europe, some
> concessions should be developed for Australian conditions, i.e.: some
> signage would be necessary to due vast distances (by comparison to
> Europe) country intersections, poor sight lines, geography and level
> x-ings.
>
>
> --
> cfsmtb

WARNING: The following is vastly oversimplified and probably too long. But I
have a day off and a good cup of coffee :)

I don't see Australian conditions as much different from Europe. Europe has
all the things listed except the comparitively vast distances. The distances
don't matter much except, I think, in terms of fatigue/boredom and the
subsequent loss of concentration. No amount of signage is effective when
people are nodding at the wheel.

What's different is social maturity - European culture has (generally) moved
past the appeal-to-authority stage (the equivalent of "I'm telling Mum on
you!" or "Nobody told me..."). The symptom of that is that courts are close
to the first port of call in Australia, not the place to which a conflict
escalates when less formal processes fail. There's still a sense of "oh-oh"
when someone goes to court in Europe. Here it's a commonplace thing. It's
normal not to resolve our own conflicts. The same appears to apply in
America - another young culture.

That's where the signs come in. If you've been warned and something happens,
it's easy to lay blame. If there is no signage, it's harder to lay blame but
analysis of an event tends to identify fault - there's a difference. People
tend to behave differently to eliminate a fault than the behaviour change
which comes from avoiding blame. Fault is usually something out of place in
a system - and systems include people's behaviour. Blame assumes the person
is the problem. Much easier to blame the person than fix system faults.
Comply or be damned.

Sadly, people are people and some have their eye on the main chance. That's
why we see reports of silly claims coming out of Europe as well. Some people
are being dragged back to childish appeals to Mum. In the main, though, the
silly claims are exceptions (and, let's face it, exceptions are what makes
the news most). Hopefully the young cultures will grow up a bit before the
"Mum" effect gets out of hand.

On reflection, I note my own behaviour differs as I move around. Here, if
someone cuts me off, goes through a stop sign, etc., I'll tend to point to
the sign or yell about their lack of knowledge of road rules or their
neglect. That often gets a defensive-agressive response. In Europe I tend to
squawk at the other person for their actions. That often gets a more
apologetic response. Note - these are tendencies, not absolutes. Both
behaviours occur, but comparitive frequencies change. Perhaps I'll try the
European approach here and see how I go. Conflict takes two, after all.

We all stuff up some time. One major difference I note when I'm cycling in
Europe is that I'll get yelled at, beeped, etc., for stuffing up; not for
being on a bike. Here I cop all sorts of 'get off the road' stuff simply
because I'm not using motorised transport. Again, tolerance and acceptance
comes with maturity...

Overall, I think taking away signs would be very dodgy here simply because
of our childishness. The lawyers are not to blame - they're just the
schoolyard prefects taking our issues to the teachers. The teachers aren't
to blame - you wouldn't let kids grow up unsupervised. Unfortunately, in our
western cultures, I think we're suffering from old parents - too tolerant
and permissive - so we're growing up spoilt by indulgent European parents
who just let the kids play without recognising the direction in which we're
growing.

There ya go. One cup of coffee worth of social ramblings :-P

me

[Terryc]

PeteSig wrote:

> The extreme of this 'nanny' approach would have to be the range of new
> yellow warning signs found today on many of our rural secondary roads, like
> this:
> http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2208043890074746151zdehFp
>
> Talk about stating the bleedin' obvious!! But I guess without it some drunk
> hoon will sue the local council because there was no warning about the
> f%#&in' forest!

In NSW, that is an council arse covering exercise to save your rates
increasing.

1) Idiot driving hire truck drives along that road and causes damage to
hire truck from overgrowing trees. Idiot tries to claim damages off
council. council says "we didn't know about that problem, thus we are
not liable"[1].

2) Council now "knows" about the problem, so they have to do something.

3) Cheapest option is to put up a warning sign. This makes driver
responsible.

4) As a bicyclist, I like warning signs because the other option is to
clear the trees, which makes it a very hot ride in Summer and exposed
ride any other time.


Yer, i know it is stating the bleeding obvious, but that is how our
nanny society has become; never take responsibility for your own actions.





[1] Essentially what local council's letter to us said when a metal
strip on a road drain ripped out the side of our nice new tyre. I don't
even know if it is good for a swan planter[2]


[2] Only if I want a divorce.

[humbug]

Bleve wrote:

> On Apr 24, 7:56 am, Stuart Lamble
> > wrote:
> > On 2007-04-23, Bleve > wrote:
> >
> > > I didn't mean the term as an insult, but as an accurate
> > > description. A cynic is what a realist calls a pessmist, I
> > > think? :)
> >
> > Nope. "Cynic: A word invented by optimists to describe realists."
> > :-)
>
> That's the one :)

Nope:-) From The Devils Dictionary

CYNIC, n.
A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they
ought to be. Hence the custom among the Scythians of plucking out a
cynic's eyes to improve his vision.

--

Humbug
Today is Setting Orange, the 42nd day of Discord in the YOLD 3173