Re: Which of these 2 types of Kryptonite locks are better?

[Chris Zacho The Wheelman]

Look at the warrantee. Kryptonite offers a bike replacement warrantee on
almost all their locks (They even have a monster that's warranted in New
York now!). Does the lock from Wallie-World offer it?

"Case hardening" means that the surface material has been hardened. The
metal underneath this hardened surface is just plain steel.

No lock, I don't care how well engineered or hard it may be will stop
the determined thief. All you can do is hope what you choose will cause
the greatest number of them to look for easier game.

May you have the wind at your back.
And a really low gear for the hills!
Chris

Chris'Z Corner
"The Website for the Common Bicyclist":
http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

[Joe Samangitak]

"Chris Zacho "The Wheelman"" > wrote in message ...
> Look at the warrantee. Kryptonite offers a bike replacement warrantee on
> almost all their locks (They even have a monster that's warranted in New
> York now!). Does the lock from Wallie-World offer it?
>
> "Case hardening" means that the surface material has been hardened. The
> metal underneath this hardened surface is just plain steel.

Yes, but as I said, I do not know if the lock is "case hardened", it
only says "hardened steel", and I don't know if there's a difference
or not.

> No lock, I don't care how well engineered or hard it may be will stop
> the determined thief. All you can do is hope what you choose will cause
> the greatest number of them to look for easier game.

Okay, don't care about Kryptonite's warranty, it's all but bogus
anyway, and I already know that "no lock will stop the determined
thief". All I'm looking for here is valid information regarding WHICH
LOCK of these two locks is harder to bust (and WHY).

[Jim Edgar]

Joe Samangitak at wrote on 8/15/03 11:41 PM:
> I'd like to get one of these two locks, but not sure which offers the
> most security. Here are the differences:
>
> "Xtra Tough Locking Chain" (n.b. This product was seen at Wal-Mart,
> but is NOT on Kryptonite's website, and is not part of the New York
> series, and is not as heavy duty as that series): This is a hardened
> steel chain (can someone tell me if it is the same as what they call
> "case hardened" steel?). Size: 3' x 5.5mm (four-sided links are 4-4.5
> mm thick, and are narrow to prevent leverage attacks). Has integrated
> key lock (similar to the cable locks, plastic over key barrel, but key
> barrel itself is solid metal). Has a protective covering that looks
> like a net.

Is this supposedly a Kryptonite product? Sounds like the Specialized locks
of a few years ago. I would think the weak point would be the lock itself
rather than the chain, given your description.
>
> "KryptoLock": This is your basic model good ol' U-Lock by Kryptonite.
>
> Which lock would be harder to break into? I also considered the
> flexible-link type locks, such as the Abus Flex-O-Steel or the
> CobraLinks locks; might they better than the Kryptonite hardened steel
> chain locks?

"Most Security" would be a combination of both. ULock (I'd jump up to the
EVOlution series - better steel/lock than regular kryptolok) everything to
somthing that won't go anywhere, then string through a heavy duty cable or
chain with an Abus disk-type lock.

Every locking system has weak points, and the argument I usually hear is
that most bike thieves will have the tools for one or the other.

You don't say where you are locking your bike. College campus? Workplace?
Darkened Noir Alleyway? Give some serious thought to that aspect as well.
Visible, yet difficult to get to is great. Visible, high traffic areas are
good. Invisible, low traffic areas are bad.

Hope that helps,

-- Jim

[Werehatrack]

On 15 Aug 2003 23:41:12 -0700, (Joe Samangitak)
may have said:

>"Xtra Tough Locking Chain" (n.b. This product was seen at Wal-Mart,
>but is NOT on Kryptonite's website, and is not part of the New York
>series, and is not as heavy duty as that series): This is a hardened
>steel chain (can someone tell me if it is the same as what they call
>"case hardened" steel?). Size: 3' x 5.5mm (four-sided links are 4-4.5
>mm thick, and are narrow to prevent leverage attacks). Has integrated
>key lock (similar to the cable locks, plastic over key barrel, but key
>barrel itself is solid metal). Has a protective covering that looks
>like a net.

I looked at one of these this morning while cruising thru WallyWorld
to grab some other stuff. I was *not* impressed. Hardened, maybe,
but there was a complete lack of other details about the exact
Rockwell, whether it's case or through hardened, etc. I'd say that
this is a typical example of Wal-Mart going to a well-known supplier
and getting them to put their name on a lesser-quality line of
products just for the Wal-Mart stores. The inducements that are often
dangled in front of such suppliers can be hard for a trademark owner
to resist, even though in the long run it often provs that they ought
to have declined the opportunity.

>"KryptoLock": This is your basic model good ol' U-Lock by Kryptonite.

If it's the Wal-Mart u-lock that bears the Kryptonite label, I think
I'd take the lack of the theft-resistance warranty on the package as
being indicative of the actual quality of the unit.

>Which lock would be harder to break into? I also considered the
>flexible-link type locks, such as the Abus Flex-O-Steel or the
>CobraLinks locks; might they better than the Kryptonite hardened steel
>chain locks?

Without actually testing them to destruction, or being in an area
where such testing is publicly carried out on a regular basis, I can't
say...but my instincts and experience tell me that for a secure lock
that will need to resist the efforts of NY-level thieves, only the
NY-labelled Krypto is likely to be worth trusting. If you're not up
against that level of threat, then the chances are very good that
virtually any physically substantial, reasonably strong lock will
deter the average opportunity-driven bike thief.

The reason I say "substantial" is this; I have seen, on a couple of
occasions, the aftermath of what appeared to be a thief to deciding to
try to steal a bike because it had a flimsy-looking lock, but
resorting to vandalism instead when the lock resisted the thief's
pocket cutters. In one case, all the cables had been snipped along
with several spokes; in another, the drive chain had half a dozen
crushed links and there were spokes clipped on both wheels. In each
case, it was obvious that the perp had tried to cut the lock's chain,
but that in fact the chain was hard enough to resist a pair of good
cutters. As a result of these events, I've concluded that the
appearance of the lock is actually as important as the reality. It
is, in my opinion, wise to use a lock whose appearance is such that
the thief simply takes one look and decides to shop elsewhere. As
such, the Wal-Mart Krypto with the thin chain impresses me as a
potential invitation to vandalism. Once the perp has the wirecutters
out of his pocket, he's probably going to cut *something*; if the
chain proves to be too hard to clip, a half dozen spokes or all of the
brake and der cables become inviting targets.

--
My email address is antispammed;
pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.

[Joe Samangitak]

KRYPTONITE XTRA TOUGH CHAIN LOCK:

There is a lifetime warranty on the product. If there is no
"theft-resistance" warranty (which I do not care about), it may just
be to allow the product to be sold at a lower price. Isn't the way the
product is made the indicator of quality, rather than the warranty? It
is 4 or 5mm thick hardened steel links, sealed by weld joint. I read
that hardened steel chain with an integrated lock (which this is), is
more secure than a U-lock. The article didn't specity that it should
be "case hardened" and not "through hardened" (whatever that is). The
idea is that the hardened steel is the same hardness as the tools used
to cut it (bolt cutters, hacksaws, drills etc). The integrated lock
can not be cut by bolt cutters. It is a heavy solid steel shackle
covered by ABS plastic. It uses a very thick pin that fits into a
barrel, just like the u-lock design (or the Cobra Links locks for that
matter). Judging by the key and bearing, the lock itself appears to be
good quality. The chain is not as thick or boron-coated (or what have
you) as the New York series chain locks from Kryptonite, but at just
over 1kg (2lbs+) for a 3' lock, this one is as heavy as I want to
carry around. Besides which, the more expensive bike locks aren't
always an indicator of better security.

The Krypto "Xtra Tough Hardened Chain" lock is not a "Wal Mart Krypto"
made by Kryptonite especially for Wal-Mart; I've seen it at other
retailers on-line, some specializing in bike locks. Althought I
-don't- see it on Kryptonite's site. Nor is it an invitation to
theives, that says "You won't have much trouble with me!". It is heavy
and strong enough to be a lethal weapon, doubling as a bike lock.

MING-TAY U LOCK:

The U-lock I'm considering against the Kryptonite chain lock a
Ming-Tay hardened steel u-lock. It is completely covered in ABS
plastic. The keyhole is in the center (facing downward) and the lock
does NOT protrude beyond the u-bar, so it can not be broken by a pipe;
a common way of breaking into u-locks. The u-bar fits snugly into the
main shaft, and almost none of the metal shows when it is pulled on,
making it difficult to insert liquid nitrogen, butane or what have
you.


I've done the research and THESE TWO ARE THE ONLY TWO LOCKS I AM
CONSIDERING. I realize they're both good locks, I just want to pick
the BETTER one, the one that is more impervious to attack. For what
its worth, it needs to resist Montreal-level theives. They may not be
as determined as NY-level theives, but what they lack in determination
they make up for in number. If anyone can tell me which of these two
might be the more secure lock and why, please let me know.


"Werehatrack" > wrote in message ...
> On 15 Aug 2003 23:41:12 -0700, (Joe Samangitak)
> may have said:
>
> >"Xtra Tough Locking Chain" (n.b. This product was seen at Wal-Mart,
> >but is NOT on Kryptonite's website, and is not part of the New York
> >series, and is not as heavy duty as that series): This is a hardened
> >steel chain (can someone tell me if it is the same as what they call
> >"case hardened" steel?). Size: 3' x 5.5mm (four-sided links are 4-4.5
> >mm thick, and are narrow to prevent leverage attacks). Has integrated
> >key lock (similar to the cable locks, plastic over key barrel, but key
> >barrel itself is solid metal). Has a protective covering that looks
> >like a net.
>
> I looked at one of these this morning while cruising thru WallyWorld
> to grab some other stuff. I was *not* impressed. Hardened, maybe,
> but there was a complete lack of other details about the exact
> Rockwell, whether it's case or through hardened, etc. I'd say that
> this is a typical example of Wal-Mart going to a well-known supplier
> and getting them to put their name on a lesser-quality line of
> products just for the Wal-Mart stores. The inducements that are often
> dangled in front of such suppliers can be hard for a trademark owner
> to resist, even though in the long run it often provs that they ought
> to have declined the opportunity.
>
> >"KryptoLock": This is your basic model good ol' U-Lock by Kryptonite.
>
> If it's the Wal-Mart u-lock that bears the Kryptonite label, I think
> I'd take the lack of the theft-resistance warranty on the package as
> being indicative of the actual quality of the unit.

[Bill Putnam]

> > MING-TAY U LOCK:
> > The U-lock I'm considering against the Kryptonite chain lock a
> > Ming-Tay hardened steel u-lock. ...I've done the research and THESE TWO ARE > > THE ONLY TWO LOCKS I AM
> > CONSIDERING. I realize they're both good locks, I just want to pick
> > the BETTER one, the one that is more impervious to attack. For what
> > its worth, it needs to resist Montreal-level theives. They may not be
> > as determined as NY-level theives, but what they lack in determination
> > they make up for in number. If anyone can tell me which of these two
> > might be the more secure lock and why, please let me know.

Whatever lock you buy, remember that many components are easily stolen
even
if the rest of the bike remains. I've had a derailler stolen while my
bike
was parked in a busy area on the University of Wisconsin-Madison
campus (USA).
The chain and derailler cable were cut and then a 6mm allen wrench was
all that it took to remove the derailler. Also, vandalism, in the
form of bashing wheels, forks, and frames, is frequent in this area.
In part for these reasons when I ride in town I now ride old 3 speed
bikes that are of little resale value.

Note too that U locks can be broken by inserting a small hydraulic
jack in the
space between the removable bar and bottom of the U. I had one
Kryptonite lock fail under normal use when the small part that turns
to cover the boss on the end of the U broke off while I was locking my
bike. The bike shop replaced the lock free of charge but that failure
didn't inspire confidence.

Sheldon Brown has some helpful thoughts on locking bikes at

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/lock-strategy.html

Bill Putnam

[Jim Edgar]

Joe Samangitak at wrote on 8/17/03 5:36 PM:

> KRYPTONITE XTRA TOUGH CHAIN LOCK:
>
> There is a lifetime warranty on the product. If there is no
> "theft-resistance" warranty (which I do not care about), it may just
> be to allow the product to be sold at a lower price. Isn't the way the
> product is made the indicator of quality, rather than the warranty? It
> is 4 or 5mm thick hardened steel links, sealed by weld joint. I read
> that hardened steel chain with an integrated lock (which this is), is
> more secure than a U-lock. The article didn't specity that it should
> be "case hardened" and not "through hardened" (whatever that is). The
> idea is that the hardened steel is the same hardness as the tools used
> to cut it (bolt cutters, hacksaws, drills etc). The integrated lock
> can not be cut by bolt cutters. It is a heavy solid steel shackle
> covered by ABS plastic. It uses a very thick pin that fits into a
> barrel, just like the u-lock design (or the Cobra Links locks for that
> matter). Judging by the key and bearing, the lock itself appears to be
> good quality. The chain is not as thick or boron-coated (or what have
> you) as the New York series chain locks from Kryptonite, but at just
> over 1kg (2lbs+) for a 3' lock, this one is as heavy as I want to
> carry around. Besides which, the more expensive bike locks aren't
> always an indicator of better security.

Sounds like the weakest point will be where the links attach to the lock
mechanism. Remember, it can be simpler for them to cut through what you
locked it to and work on the lock later.

<snipped>

> MING-TAY U LOCK:
>
<snipped>
Get a Kryptonite. Evolution Series. Yes, I read what you said below.
Otherwise get a bike you don't care about.

> I've done the research and THESE TWO ARE THE ONLY TWO LOCKS I AM
> CONSIDERING.

Oh well...

Best advice you'll get is to use two separate locks - one cable/chain and
one U-Lock. You want thieves to think it will be easier somewhere else.

-- Jim