Say it aint so Shimano ... PART 2 [Archive]

Donald Gillies

August 19th 03, 03:23 AM

Looks to me Japan-style price deflation is taking down prices of
engineered bicycle components everywhere. Shimano isn't the only
component-maker trying to prop up prices to stay alive. See the
recent notice from Chris King, listed below, for another desperate
attempt to maintain prices in the market channel. Perhaps new Chinese
components will be hitting the USA mainland soon ??

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

================= From www.branfordbike.com ===============

Chris King Headsets - are being discontinued

We have used Chris King headsets for over twenty years with excellent
results. Like Phil Wood bottom brackets, Chris King headsets spin smoother
and last longer than anything else available. They come in a wide variety
of bright colors and in several sizes and configurations to fit almost any
bicycle. Chris King headsets used sealed cartridge bearings that are easy
to open, clean and re-lube. Simply pop out the metal split ring, flush with
WD-40 and regrease with Le Tour Whisper White. Spare parts are readily
available and every Chris King headset comes with a 10 year warranty.

Chris King recently changed their pricing policy. They now require all
dealers to consent in writing that Chris King products will be advertised
at a price that Chris King believes riders should pay. The new, fixed
retail price would be the same for all Chris King dealers and higher than
what we currently charge. In a recent phone conversation a Chris King
representative stated that if we did not sign the agreement they would no
longer sell their products to us. They would also ban their distributors
from selling to us. As a result we are discontinuing all Chris King
products. The following items are currently in stock and will be deleted as
we sell out.

You may call Chris King at 800-523-6008 or email them at
?subject=Retail Price
for further information or to let them know what you think.

================================================== =========

bfd

August 19th 03, 03:32 AM

"Donald Gillies" > wrote in message
...
> Looks to me Japan-style price deflation is taking down prices of
> engineered bicycle components everywhere. Shimano isn't the only
> component-maker trying to prop up prices to stay alive. See the
> recent notice from Chris King, listed below, for another desperate
> attempt to maintain prices in the market channel. Perhaps new Chinese
> components will be hitting the USA mainland soon ??
>
Interesting, but are Chinese made components going to be able to compete
with the likes of Chris King? Does anyone make headsets comparable to Chris
King? At any price? I think not! At around $100 or less, CK headsets are
arguably the best. What do you have?

> ================= From www.branfordbike.com ===============
>
> Chris King Headsets - are being discontinued
>
> We have used Chris King headsets for over twenty years with excellent
> results. Like Phil Wood bottom brackets, Chris King headsets spin smoother
> and last longer than anything else available. They come in a wide variety
> of bright colors and in several sizes and configurations to fit almost any
> bicycle. Chris King headsets used sealed cartridge bearings that are easy
> to open, clean and re-lube. Simply pop out the metal split ring, flush
with
> WD-40 and regrease with Le Tour Whisper White. Spare parts are readily
> available and every Chris King headset comes with a 10 year warranty.
>
> Chris King recently changed their pricing policy. They now require all
> dealers to consent in writing that Chris King products will be advertised
> at a price that Chris King believes riders should pay. The new, fixed
> retail price would be the same for all Chris King dealers and higher than
> what we currently charge. In a recent phone conversation a Chris King
> representative stated that if we did not sign the agreement they would no
> longer sell their products to us. They would also ban their distributors
> from selling to us. As a result we are discontinuing all Chris King
> products. The following items are currently in stock and will be deleted
as
> we sell out.
>
> You may call Chris King at 800-523-6008 or email them at
> ?subject=Retail Price
> for further information or to let them know what you think.
>
> ================================================== =========

Ryan Cousineau

August 19th 03, 04:04 AM

In article >,
(Donald Gillies) wrote:

> Looks to me Japan-style price deflation is taking down prices of
> engineered bicycle components everywhere. Shimano isn't the only
> component-maker trying to prop up prices to stay alive. See the
> recent notice from Chris King, listed below, for another desperate
> attempt to maintain prices in the market channel. Perhaps new Chinese
> components will be hitting the USA mainland soon ??
>
> - Don Gillies
> San Diego, CA
>
> ================= From www.branfordbike.com ===============
>
> Chris King Headsets - are being discontinued

> Chris King recently changed their pricing policy. They now require all
> dealers to consent in writing that Chris King products will be advertised
> at a price that Chris King believes riders should pay. The new, fixed
> retail price would be the same for all Chris King dealers and higher than
> what we currently charge. In a recent phone conversation a Chris King
> representative stated that if we did not sign the agreement they would no
> longer sell their products to us. They would also ban their distributors
> from selling to us. As a result we are discontinuing all Chris King
> products. The following items are currently in stock and will be deleted as
> we sell out.

The Chris King corporation seems to be not just flirting with US
anti-trust law, but actually getting the phone number of it and planning
to make a rendezvous at a sleazy hotel on the outskirts of town ASAP.

There's a grey area by which a company can run a "promotional program"
whereby they pay money to vendors to support the costs of advertising
their product, on certain conditions (mainly, that the price in the ad
conform to a minimum stipulated in the contract). I'm not sure they can
cut off vendors for not participating, though.

It's hard to say what exactly is happening here. I bet that there is
more to this.

--
Ryan Cousineau, http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

Kenny Lee

August 19th 03, 04:31 AM

bfd wrote:
> "Donald Gillies" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Looks to me Japan-style price deflation is taking down prices of
>>engineered bicycle components everywhere. Shimano isn't the only
>>component-maker trying to prop up prices to stay alive. See the
>>recent notice from Chris King, listed below, for another desperate
>>attempt to maintain prices in the market channel. Perhaps new Chinese
>>components will be hitting the USA mainland soon ??
>>
>
> Interesting, but are Chinese made components going to be able to compete
> with the likes of Chris King? Does anyone make headsets comparable to Chris
> King? At any price? I think not! At around $100 or less, CK headsets are
> arguably the best. What do you have?
>
>
>
>>================= From www.branfordbike.com ===============
>>
>>Chris King Headsets - are being discontinued
>>
>>We have used Chris King headsets for over twenty years with excellent
>>results. Like Phil Wood bottom brackets, Chris King headsets spin smoother
>>and last longer than anything else available. They come in a wide variety
>>of bright colors and in several sizes and configurations to fit almost any
>>bicycle. Chris King headsets used sealed cartridge bearings that are easy
>>to open, clean and re-lube. Simply pop out the metal split ring, flush
>
> with
>
>>WD-40 and regrease with Le Tour Whisper White. Spare parts are readily
>>available and every Chris King headset comes with a 10 year warranty.
>>
>>Chris King recently changed their pricing policy. They now require all
>>dealers to consent in writing that Chris King products will be advertised
>>at a price that Chris King believes riders should pay. The new, fixed
>>retail price would be the same for all Chris King dealers and higher than
>>what we currently charge. In a recent phone conversation a Chris King
>>representative stated that if we did not sign the agreement they would no
>>longer sell their products to us. They would also ban their distributors
>>from selling to us. As a result we are discontinuing all Chris King
>>products. The following items are currently in stock and will be deleted
>
> as
>
>>we sell out.
>>
>>You may call Chris King at 800-523-6008 or email them at
?subject=Retail Price
>>for further information or to let them know what you think.
>>
>>================================================== =========
>
>
I live and ride in Taiwan. I've been told that Campy, Look, SRAM, TREK
and a whole bunch of others are doing a whole lot of business here in
Taiwan.

I can bear witness that the people here and in China have the resources
and the ability to manufacture bike parts to NASA specs, be it metal or
CF. I've seen them, bought them and am using them right now. The prices
are unbelivable. Sorry to say this but, if I were CK or PW I'd seriouly
consider moving my production to Taiwan.

The following link points to a company that makes world class quality CF
parts, CHEAP. For prices contact them directly.

http://www.pazzaz.com/

Kenny Lee

Richard Ney

August 19th 03, 05:31 AM

Ryan Cousineau writes:

>> Looks to me Japan-style price deflation is taking down prices of
>> engineered bicycle components everywhere. Shimano isn't the only
>> component-maker trying to prop up prices to stay alive. See the
>> recent notice from Chris King, listed below, for another desperate
>> attempt to maintain prices in the market channel. Perhaps new
>> Chinese components will be hitting the USA mainland soon ??
>>
>>
>> Chris King recently changed their pricing policy. They now require
>> all dealers to consent in writing that Chris King products will be
>> advertised at a price that Chris King believes riders should pay.
>> The new, fixed retail price would be the same for all Chris King
>> dealers and higher than what we currently charge. In a recent phone
>> conversation a Chris King representative stated that if we did not
>> sign the agreement they would no longer sell their products to us.
>> They would also ban their distributors from selling to us. As a
>> result we are discontinuing all Chris King products. The following
>> items are currently in stock and will be deleted as we sell out.
>
> The Chris King corporation seems to be not just flirting with US
> anti-trust law, but actually getting the phone number of it and
> planning to make a rendezvous at a sleazy hotel on the outskirts of
> town ASAP.
>
> There's a grey area by which a company can run a "promotional program"
> whereby they pay money to vendors to support the costs of advertising
> their product, on certain conditions (mainly, that the price in the ad
> conform to a minimum stipulated in the contract). I'm not sure they
> can cut off vendors for not participating, though.
>
> It's hard to say what exactly is happening here. I bet that there is
> more to this.

Chris King probably flies well under the radar screen of the US DOJ.

Nike and MS would get their respective heads handed to them.

Bill Davidson

August 19th 03, 05:44 AM

Donald Gillies wrote:
> Chris King recently changed their pricing policy. They now require all
> dealers to consent in writing that Chris King products will be advertised
> at a price that Chris King believes riders should pay. The new, fixed
> retail price would be the same for all Chris King dealers and higher than
> what we currently charge. In a recent phone conversation a Chris King
> representative stated that if we did not sign the agreement they would no
> longer sell their products to us. They would also ban their distributors
> from selling to us.

This is clear and blatant price fixing. It's illegal. Branford should
get a lawyer. Better yet, all shops hit by this should get together and
file a class action suit.

--Bill Davidson
--
Please remove ".nospam" from my address for email replies.

I'm a 17 year veteran of usenet -- you'd think I'd be over it by now

Mark Hickey

August 19th 03, 05:46 AM

"bfd" > wrote:

>Interesting, but are Chinese made components going to be able to compete
>with the likes of Chris King? Does anyone make headsets comparable to Chris
>King? At any price? I think not! At around $100 or less, CK headsets are
>arguably the best. What do you have?

CK makes nice headsets, but it's really not necessary to spend $100 or
more to get a light, high quality headset that will last for many tens
of thousands of miles.

It WILL cost you that much to get one with the manufacturer's name
written garishly around it though... ;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Fred Clydesdale

August 19th 03, 11:22 AM

> Chris King probably flies well under the radar screen of the US DOJ.
>
> Nike and MS would get their respective heads handed to them.

well, in all likelihood MS would get their heads handed to them, after
which DOJ would apologize profusely, sew the head back on and offer the
heads of several competitors by way of further apology.

if history is any guide.

fc

Qui si parla Campagnolo

August 19th 03, 01:54 PM

from branford-<< We have used Chris King headsets for over twenty years with
excellent
results. Like Phil Wood bottom brackets, Chris King headsets spin smoother
and last longer than anything else available >> 

etc...<< Chris King recently changed their pricing policy. They now require all

dealers to consent in writing that Chris King products will be advertised
at a price that Chris King believes riders should pay. The new, fixed
retail price would be the same for all Chris King dealers and higher than
what we currently charge. >> 

Why don't they just ask the higher price? Sounds like they are making a
political statement, not a business one...particularly if they think it's such
a fine piece of gear. Why not just use a 'normal' mark-up, not trying to
devalue the product?

You can CK hs from me, btw..'cutting off nose to spite face' comes to mind.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

David Kunz

August 19th 03, 03:00 PM

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

> billdav-<< This is clear and blatant price fixing. It's illegal. Branford
> should
> get a lawyer. Better yet, all shops hit by this should get together and
> file a class action suit. >> 
>
> Pass...I think it's fine and dandy, as do most other 'shops' that see cut-rate,
> below a sustainable margin, pricing. It's not illegal to ask to sell at MSRP,
> and not supply something to somebody if they don't. That happens all the time
> in lots of stuff...Why tires are the same price at MO as at shops.
>
> All it took for us is to fill the piece of paper out and send it back...We
> don't discount CK HSs...
>
> Peter Chisholm
> Vecchio's Bicicletteria
> 1833 Pearl St.
> Boulder, CO, 80302
> (303)440-3535
> http://www.vecchios.com
> "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Yes, but it is reasonable to preclude anyone from doing so?
I don't think that it is. To me, it's price fixing.
I certainly don't expect a shop to sell at a loss, but I expect to get a
decent price.

David

Qui si parla Campagnolo

August 19th 03, 03:24 PM

david-<< Yes, but it is reasonable to preclude anyone from doing so?
I don't think that it is. To me, it's price fixing.
I certainly don't expect a shop to sell at a loss, but I expect to get a
decent price. >> 

You do get a 'decent' price when you pay MSRP, a price determined to be fair
and based on the shop's expenses.

CK isn't trying to tell people what to charge, they are just trying to protect
their distribution. Charge $80 for a CK HS, just don't expect to be able to BUY
any more.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Alex Rodriguez

August 19th 03, 04:19 PM

In article >,
says...

>You do get a 'decent' price when you pay MSRP, a price determined to be fair
>and based on the shop's expenses.

How does the manufacturer determine your expenses when they come up with
the MSRP? A well managed bike shop will have lower expenses than a poorly
managed bike shop. Why should they be forced to charge more? They could
attract more customers to their shop by charging a lower price. Then the
customer would get a good product from a good bike shop. I'm sure that as a
r.b.t regular you have seen the many thread on the crappy service some
shops provide, not yours of course.

>CK isn't trying to tell people what to charge,

Yes they are.

>they are just trying to protect their distribution. Charge $80 for a CK HS,
>just don't expect to be able to BUY any more.

This scheme is just suporting those shops that don't know how to run a
business.
-----------------
Alex __O
_-\<,_
(_)/ (_)

Alex Rodriguez

August 19th 03, 04:21 PM

In article >,
says...
>CK makes nice headsets, but it's really not necessary to spend $100 or
>more to get a light, high quality headset that will last for many tens
>of thousands of miles.

Who else makes as nice a HS as CK? I have a Shimano Ultegra HS on my bike.
It works well, but it is no where near as smooth as a CK.

>It WILL cost you that much to get one with the manufacturer's name
>written garishly around it though... ;-)

I agree. In the past when I could not afford one I always wanted to get
one. Then when I could afford it, they started putting thier name in
huge letters on it, and now I would not spend my money on it.
-----------------
Alex __O
_-\<,_
(_)/ (_)

Dion Dock

August 19th 03, 05:02 PM

It is illegal for a manufacturer make retailers agree to sell their product
for a given price. It is not illegal for a manufacturer to make retailers
agree to _advertise_ their product only at a given price.

This means you won't be able to get catalogs and print ads with King
headsets priced much lower than your local shop. Ever wonder why you see
"call for lowest price"?

(BTW, you can get King headsets without the "King" written all over the
races. It takes a special order but I didn't have to wait more than a week
for mine.)

I also agree, there are other fine headsets that cost less than Kings,
they're just harder to find in stock and they won't be anodized to match
your bike.

-Dion

"Bill Davidson" > wrote in message
news:9Xh0b.9950$kP.379@fed1read03...
> Donald Gillies wrote:
> > Chris King recently changed their pricing policy. They now require all
> > dealers to consent in writing that Chris King products will be
advertised
> > at a price that Chris King believes riders should pay. The new, fixed
> > retail price would be the same for all Chris King dealers and higher
than
> > what we currently charge. In a recent phone conversation a Chris King
> > representative stated that if we did not sign the agreement they would
no
> > longer sell their products to us. They would also ban their distributors
> > from selling to us.

Tom Ace

August 19th 03, 05:24 PM

Peter Chisholm wrote:

> You do get a 'decent' price when you pay MSRP, a price determined to be fair
> and based on the shop's expenses.

For many products, MSRPs are set somewhat above a typical selling price.
It's a game, it's a way of making the usual selling price appear to be
a discount, and thus seem like a better deal.

> CK isn't trying to tell people what to charge,

The hell they aren't.

> they are just trying to protect
> their distribution. Charge $80 for a CK HS, just don't expect to be able to BUY
> any more.

Tom Ace

Tom Ace

August 19th 03, 05:39 PM

Peter Chisholm wrote:

> Why don't they just ask the higher price? Sounds like they are making a
> political statement, not a business one...particularly if they think it's such
> a fine piece of gear. Why not just use a 'normal' mark-up, not trying to
> devalue the product?

Yes, it is a kind of political statement.
Is there something wrong with having principles?

Tom Ace

Paul Kopit

August 19th 03, 06:50 PM

On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:19:16 -0400, Alex Rodriguez >
wrote:

>A well managed bike shop will have lower expenses than a poorly
>managed bike shop.

Not at all true. Rentals in places like Santa Monica are astounding.
Helen's is a wonderful shop and sells some stuff at above MSRP. That
is true for components, clothing and bicycles. They do have specials
and still compete effectively with Supergo, about 1 mile down the
street. Supergo's prices at the shop are no bargain normally either
and they don't meet their own catalog price either.

Most of the people in the shop are quite knowledgeable and their
serevice is fine. I heard 2 in conversation refer to Supergo
customers as "bottom feeders" but I'd doubt that is the prevailing
attitude of the management there. They may be the #1 or #2 Cannondale
dealer in USA. They have good inventories of many items.

Jim Edgar

August 19th 03, 08:43 PM

Alex Rodriguez at wrote on 8/19/03 8:19 AM:
> How does the manufacturer determine your expenses when they come up with
> the MSRP? A well managed bike shop will have lower expenses than a poorly
> managed bike shop. Why should they be forced to charge more? They could
> attract more customers to their shop by charging a lower price. Then the
> customer would get a good product from a good bike shop. I'm sure that as a
> r.b.t regular you have seen the many thread on the crappy service some
> shops provide, not yours of course.

I think the issue is that CK is tired of seeing their $120 headset on sale
at $88. It makes people think it's an $88 headset. Then it makes people
think that their full-service bike shop should charge $88 for it. Then the
full-service bike shop gets ****ed and calls CK and asks why some ******
with a resale license and a yahoo.com shop can be undercutting them.

If the "well managed" shop you speak of has better service, customer
relations, reputation, store quality, etc., - and they manage to articulate
that difference in word and action - then they will get more customers - far
more than they would get by cutting their margin on a headset.

Good retailers keep their prices in line and do what they can to lower costs
or make effective use of their resources.

Good manufacturers support their retail distribution chain, or they figure
out how to make work on a direct basis.

> This scheme is just suporting those shops that don't know how to run a
> business.

I beg to differ - plenty of people manage to lose their ass in retail. CK
headsets aren't going to make the difference for a loser shop.

And for the loser shops who don't understand margin, there are plenty of
other manufacturers who wouldn't care a speck if their stuff gets sold at $1
over wholesale, as long as they get paid. They can sell a ton of stuff at
cheap, cheap prices and then wonder why they can't pay any bills.

The quality shop has a right to make more margin on one item to support
lower margins on other things, not to mention the costs inherent in carrying
inventory in the shop, so we can all go in and drool over cool gear and
things.

-- Jim

Jim Edgar

August 19th 03, 09:31 PM

I wrote:
>> The quality shop has a right to make more margin on one item to support
>> lower margins on other things, not to mention the costs inherent in carrying
>> inventory in the shop, so we can all go in and drool over cool gear and
>> things.
>>

Mike S. at mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet wrote on 8/19/03 1:03 PM:
> That's called Labor. Where do you think shops make their money? It
> certainly ain't on parts!

Parts is Parts. Labor isn't what we're talking about here.

The issue at hand is that another poster stated that maintaining MSRP's
somehow subsidizes shops which aren't well run.

Not all margins are the same. Sometimes a superior product like the Chris
King headsets have a lower margin, while the "bread & butter" replacement
stuff has a great margin. When the margin is below a certain level, there's
no reason for a shop to stock something.

For the manufacturer of a quality product, the issue is that they have to
ask a retailer to stock their product, which might sit there for a bit
longer than the $20 no-name brand version. Why is it in the retailer's
interest to do so if they are only going to make 5% on something?

It seems like CK is weeding out the guys who want to place the order with
them _after_ they take the customer's money. They want to support their
dealers who have the stuff in stock - and they realize that costs money for
the dealer.

-- Jim

ps - please take a look at your newsreader quoting. it ain't.

Mark Wolfe

August 19th 03, 10:22 PM

It's price fixing. Why not let the market decide the what it will fetch.
I gave 100 for mine and didn't have an issue with it because of the
reputation and the quality of the headset. They don't need to go to these
tatics to set a price. As a shop, you've got your cost on the part, if CK
wants to bring the price up for all bike shops, they need to increase what
they charge for the part and let the bike shops decide on what sort of
profit they make. Not make the shops sign an agreement to maintain a
certain price.

Mark

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

> from branford-<< We have used Chris King headsets for over twenty years
with
> excellent
> results. Like Phil Wood bottom brackets, Chris King headsets spin smoother
> and last longer than anything else available >> 
>
> etc...<< Chris King recently changed their pricing policy. They now
require all
>
> dealers to consent in writing that Chris King products will be advertised
> at a price that Chris King believes riders should pay. The new, fixed
> retail price would be the same for all Chris King dealers and higher than
> what we currently charge. >> 
>
> Why don't they just ask the higher price? Sounds like they are making a
> political statement, not a business one...particularly if they think it's
such
> a fine piece of gear. Why not just use a 'normal' mark-up, not trying to
> devalue the product?
>
> You can CK hs from me, btw..'cutting off nose to spite face' comes to
mind.
>
> Peter Chisholm
> Vecchio's Bicicletteria
> 1833 Pearl St.
> Boulder, CO, 80302
> (303)440-3535
> http://www.vecchios.com
> "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

--
Mark Wolfe http://www.wolfenet.org
gpg fingerprint = 42B6 EFEB 5414 AA18 01B7 64AC EF46 F7E6 82F6 8C71
"Anyone attempting to generate random numbers by deterministic means is, of
course, living in a state of sin."
- John Von Neumann

B. Sanders

August 19th 03, 10:56 PM

"Kenny Lee" > wrote in message
...
> bfd wrote:
> > "Donald Gillies" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>Looks to me Japan-style price deflation is taking down prices of
> >>engineered bicycle components everywhere. Shimano isn't the only
> >>component-maker trying to prop up prices to stay alive. See the
> >>recent notice from Chris King, listed below, for another desperate
> >>attempt to maintain prices in the market channel. Perhaps new Chinese
> >>components will be hitting the USA mainland soon ??
> >>
> >
> > Interesting, but are Chinese made components going to be able to compete
> > with the likes of Chris King? Does anyone make headsets comparable to
Chris
> > King? At any price? I think not! At around $100 or less, CK headsets are
> > arguably the best. What do you have?

> I live and ride in Taiwan. I've been told that Campy, Look, SRAM, TREK
> and a whole bunch of others are doing a whole lot of business here in
> Taiwan.

I have no doubt that this is the case.

> I can bear witness that the people here and in China have the resources
> and the ability to manufacture bike parts to NASA specs, be it metal or
> CF. I've seen them, bought them and am using them right now. The prices
> are unbelivable. Sorry to say this but, if I were CK or PW I'd seriouly
> consider moving my production to Taiwan.

The only people who care about the "Made in America" cachet are Americans.
Correct me if I'm wrong here. I think just about everybody else has moved
on, especially when they see the difference in retail margins between
USA-made and Taiwan-made frames, wheels and components.

For instance, many lightweight racing wheelsets - often with European or US
brand names - are made in Taiwan and mainland China. How can US-made goods
compete?

Have a look at the A-Class website and see if these wheelsets look familiar:

http://aclass-wheels.com/

> The following link points to a company that makes world class quality CF
> parts, CHEAP. For prices contact them directly.
>
> http://www.pazzaz.com/

I would bet a round of Guinness that Pazzazz makes some of the "Weyless"
components (cranks, stems, seatpost, etc) sold by SuperGo, and probably
other house-branded parts from other mail-order outfits. Looks like great
stuff to me. I've used Pazzazz carbon components in the past, and they were
excellent quality.

-Barry

S. Anderson

August 20th 03, 12:10 AM

"Mark Wolfe" > wrote in message
...
> It's price fixing. Why not let the market decide the what it will fetch.
> I gave 100 for mine and didn't have an issue with it because of the
> reputation and the quality of the headset. They don't need to go to
these
> tatics to set a price. As a shop, you've got your cost on the part, if
CK
> wants to bring the price up for all bike shops, they need to increase what
> they charge for the part and let the bike shops decide on what sort of
> profit they make. Not make the shops sign an agreement to maintain a
> certain price.
>
> Mark
>

I tend to agree. And it's not only Shimano and CK. Certain bicycle
manufacturers insisted on maintaining prices throughout the dealer network.
This was true for complete bikes as well as parts. If you bought 2000 13"
bikes in one model, you were forbidden from discounting them when you
relized that there weren't that many people under 5' in your neighbourhood.
To me, that's price fixing. The only people that lose are the consumers.
And possibly CK in the long run as people turn to cheaper alternatives. And
headsets of all things! The most overrated piece of equipment on a bike.

My $0.02CDN,

Scott..

Fred Marx

August 20th 03, 01:01 AM

Better yet, all shops hit by this should get together and
> file a class action suit.
>
> --Bill Davidson

yea let's all get together and support our friendly local ambulance
chaser......
yea right, just what needs to happen more lawsuits. Why not just get
the merchants together and BOYCOTT King? Hit em where it hurts.. If
they're product doesn't get sold that'll hurt more than a stinking
lawsuit. Oh wait that's what Branford is doing isn't it.

basjan

August 20th 03, 02:10 AM

Amen Scott - blah blah about King, while a WTB has lasted me years and is
still going very strong, and at low maintanance. Let them "price-it-up",
I'll get my stuff elsewhere, may not be as cool, but hey, if you need a
headset to feel better about yourself...

..
"S. Anderson" > wrote in message
...
> "Mark Wolfe" > wrote in message
> ...
> > It's price fixing. Why not let the market decide the what it will
fetch.
> > I gave 100 for mine and didn't have an issue with it because of the
> > reputation and the quality of the headset. They don't need to go to
> these
> > tatics to set a price. As a shop, you've got your cost on the part, if
> CK
> > wants to bring the price up for all bike shops, they need to increase
what
> > they charge for the part and let the bike shops decide on what sort of
> > profit they make. Not make the shops sign an agreement to maintain a
> > certain price.
> >
> > Mark
> >
>
> I tend to agree. And it's not only Shimano and CK. Certain bicycle
> manufacturers insisted on maintaining prices throughout the dealer
network.
> This was true for complete bikes as well as parts. If you bought 2000 13"
> bikes in one model, you were forbidden from discounting them when you
> relized that there weren't that many people under 5' in your
neighbourhood.
> To me, that's price fixing. The only people that lose are the consumers.
> And possibly CK in the long run as people turn to cheaper alternatives.
And
> headsets of all things! The most overrated piece of equipment on a bike.
>
> My $0.02CDN,
>
> Scott..
>
>

Werehatrack

August 20th 03, 02:25 AM

On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 04:31:15 GMT, "Richard Ney" > may
have said:

>Chris King probably flies well under the radar screen of the US DOJ.

Perhaps not for long. I doubt that they have the clout or connections
to survive even the first phone call.

--
My email address is antispammed;
pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.

Rick Onanian

August 20th 03, 02:46 AM

On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:03:03 -0700, Mike S. <mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet> wrote:
> That's called Labor. Where do you think shops make their money? It
> certainly ain't on parts!

If they didn't make any money on parts, they
wouldn't sell parts except when they will install
them; then it would be wise to price the parts
with labor included. That's actually a good idea
for a LBS. Hmm...

Anyway, like I was saying, if they didn't make
anything on parts, and didn't sell them except
for their own installation, that would suck,
IMO. I like to be able to go and get a part as
soon as I need it, even at a higher price.

My shop makes a sufficient margin on parts. I am
willing to buy there, because he always takes such
good care of me -- any problem, he takes care of
it. Whatever I buy, he tells me how to install it.
And so on.

I had suspected that he makes almost no margin
on parts, because his prices are not terrible,
but when I had a problem and jokingly mentioned
that thought after he solved a problem I had
with parts, he said he makes enough to be worth
it. Good for him!

> Mike
--
Rick Onanian

Dan Daniel

August 20th 03, 04:32 AM

On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:19:16 -0400, Alex Rodriguez >
wrote:

>In article >,
>says...
>

>
>>CK isn't trying to tell people what to charge,
>
>Yes they are.
>

As I read the original post, CK is referring to the ADVETISED price. I
see nothing saying that you can't actually sell it for whatever you
want.

Is the new CK policy about the actual selling price, or about
advertising a price?

Mark Hickey

August 20th 03, 05:10 AM

Alex Rodriguez > wrote:

>In article >,
>says...
>>CK makes nice headsets, but it's really not necessary to spend $100 or
>>more to get a light, high quality headset that will last for many tens
>>of thousands of miles.
>
>Who else makes as nice a HS as CK? I have a Shimano Ultegra HS on my bike.
>It works well, but it is no where near as smooth as a CK.

Hmmmm - any decent, well-adjusted headset should be smooth enough that
you can't tell one from the other. Well, those with roller bearings
will have a bit more drag, but that's not really a "problem". I
suspect there's something wrong with your Ultegra HS if it's
noticeably rougher than a CK (or any other HS).

>>It WILL cost you that much to get one with the manufacturer's name
>>written garishly around it though... ;-)
>
>I agree. In the past when I could not afford one I always wanted to get
>one. Then when I could afford it, they started putting thier name in
>huge letters on it, and now I would not spend my money on it.

Heh. That's kind of my feeling about it too - but a lot of people
really WANT others to know they dropped a C-note on their headset.
;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Qui si parla Campagnolo

August 20th 03, 01:40 PM

mark-<< As a shop, you've got your cost on the part, if CK
wants to bring the price up for all bike shops, they need to increase what
they charge for the part and let the bike shops decide on what sort of
profit they make. >> 

The cost of the HS has stayed the same. CK wishes to not have the HS sold at a
discount., at a lower margin.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Qui si parla Campagnolo

August 20th 03, 01:44 PM

fred-<< Why not just get
the merchants together and BOYCOTT King? Hit em where it hurts.. >> 

Brick and morter bike shops applaud this and other measures that prevents
discounting..Bike shops, who do not discount everything to try to compete with
MO, think CK has a good idea. The 'merchants' that are whining are mailorder,
not store fronts.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Qui si parla Campagnolo

August 20th 03, 01:49 PM

adr-<< How does the manufacturer determine your expenses when they come up with
the MSRP? >> 

It's not rocket science, there are reams of information of the margin required
to ensure you can kkep the lights on.

<< They could
attract more customers to their shop by charging a lower price. Then the
customer would get a good product from a good bike shop. >> 

Perhaps, and then be busy to the point of having poor service. It is very
complicated but in general, a 35 pt margin is what you need to stay
around...take the CK hs, the cost, divided by .65 or so-the price to charge.

<< This scheme is just suporting those shops that don't know how to run a
business >> 

This 'scheme' has been around for years for everything from rims to tires to
bikes to handlebar tape. It is not new at all. Even MO cannot charge less than
a range for thinmgs like tires. Otherwise they will not be able to buy tires
from Bikemine, for instance(Conti and Vittoria)

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Qui si parla Campagnolo

August 20th 03, 01:53 PM

Jim-<< I think the issue is that CK is tired of seeing their $120 headset on
sale
at $88. It makes people think it's an $88 headset. Then it makes people
think that their full-service bike shop should charge $88 for it. Then the
full-service bike shop gets ****ed and calls CK and asks why some ******
with a resale license and a yahoo.com shop can be undercutting them. >> 

Bingo, replace CK hs with pedals, tires, handlebars, stems, etc...

<< Good manufacturers support their retail distribution chain, or they figure
out how to make work on a direct basis. >> 

The bike shop, that brick and morter thing, is still the place bike stuff gets
sold primarily. Regardless of what the 'web dwellers' would like ytou to
believe. W/O the LBS, the bike biz would vanish.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Qui si parla Campagnolo

August 20th 03, 01:59 PM

Tom-<< For many products, MSRPs are set somewhat above a typical selling price.
It's a game, it's a way of making the usual selling price appear to be
a discount, and thus seem like a better deal. >> 

Perhaps a game for some bike shops, but not ours. We don't inflate the price
then say'I'll give you 10% off, 'jus cuz I like the cut of your jib' type of
nonsense.

We price everything at MSRP if there is one, and use a standard margin if there
is not. We do not price match or anything like that.

<< The hell they aren't. >> 

If ya can get a CK hs for $88, go right ahead...Just like a $30 Conti GP or a
$140 pair of SP pedals but don't slam a manufacturer for trying to protect
their retailers or their product.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Paul Kopit

August 20th 03, 02:41 PM

On 20 Aug 2003 12:40:54 GMT, (Qui si parla
Campagnolo) wrote:

>The cost of the HS has stayed the same. CK wishes to not have the HS sold at a
>discount., at a lower margin.

You are likely 100% correct. Things change when they begin to lose
volume.

Qui si parla Campagnolo

August 21st 03, 02:27 PM

Fred-<> 

Good for you but it happens all the time...not by you but by many others(will
you match this price or that? I want to give you the business)...little do they
know they ARE giving us the business.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Marten Hoffmann

August 21st 03, 11:24 PM

schreef ...
> "bfd" > wrote:
>
> >Interesting, but are Chinese made components going to be able to compete
> >with the likes of Chris King? Does anyone make headsets comparable to Chris
> >King? At any price? I think not! At around $100 or less, CK headsets are
> >arguably the best. What do you have?
>
> CK makes nice headsets, but it's really not necessary to spend $100 or
> more to get a light, high quality headset that will last for many tens
> of thousands of miles.

After going through three so-called "high quality" headsets in five
years' time (on an off-road tandem) the CK is a big relief because it's
working flawlessly for 7 years now.

--
Regards,
Marten

Fred Marx

August 22nd 03, 12:34 AM

> Good for you but it happens all the time...not by you but by many others(will
> you match this price or that? I want to give you the business)...little do they
> know they ARE giving us the business.

I suppose that I should add that I also do my homework and will buy at
the best price I can find, from a shop. I'm not incrediably loyal to
one establishment. I have watched well heeled clientel in the local
shop try to weasel a deal for themselves and it annoys me to no end,
which may influence my purchasing habits. I like brick and mortar since
they're gonna be there when I have a problem... which leads to the next
isssue. How many times (as a shop owner/mech) have you heard...... well
I got it from X Discount but I can't figure it out/it's broken. Dude can
you get it fixed/replaced/warrenteed? The local wrenches enjoy my
reactions as I watch these exchanges from the background.... ]:)

Ryan Cousineau

August 22nd 03, 06:59 AM

In article >,
(Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote:

> Fred-< have a difficult time walking into a shop and trying to beat them out of
> a fair price. >> 
>
> Good for you but it happens all the time...not by you but by many others(will
> you match this price or that? I want to give you the business)...little do
> they
> know they ARE giving us the business.

Somehow, this reminds me of something I read in a Northwest Airlines
house magazine a few months ago. The CEO, by way of trying to explain
why Northwest was losing money while certain non-traditional airlines
prospered (I can't remember if Southwest was explicitly cited or only
the implicit target) was because Northwest was a hub-and-spoke airline,
and that covering small routes was really expensive.

As a purchaser of flights, I couldn't tell why that was supposed to
matter to me, and I also couldn't tell why this answer was supposed to
make Northwest's shareholders feel better, either.

I like good LBSes. The total goods I have bought mail-order is dwarfed
by the gear I have bought locally. So far, it's just a pair of Pedro's
3-corner spoke wrenches that I bought online because I couldn't find
them at any of the several shops I tried, and a pair of rims that I
threw into the order because they were too cheap to pass up (US$10 ea
for Syncros Lil' Snappers).

That said, I wander into most shops and get such improbable stories just
about every time I ask for advice that I can't believe it. Tales about
frame materials, stories about what bike frame will fit me, notions
about how PC-48 chains are too fragile, and other fancy stuff.

It has gotten to the point that my favourite shop is the one nearby
where they specialize on used and closeout gear, because most of the
staff are decently ignorant about bikes and I can shop for my odd cheap
scraps in peace.

Instead, I find that a year or so of close study online, a copy of Zinn,
and a judicious selection of tools slowly accumulated, has left me as
the only mechanic I really trust with my bikes.

Meanwhile, I hang around with anarchist types who do things like shift
Gipiemme derailleurs with Campy 9v brifteurs, and adapt freehub bodies
onto ancient hubs because it seems like a neat thing, and contemplate
three ways of upgrading an ancient lugged 120mm frame's drivetrain
without spreading the rear triangle. I haven't yet met a bike shop
interested in this sort of project, for the perfectly decent reason that
this combination of scavenging, experimentation, cheapness, and
cleverness doesn't amount to much money.

I sympathize with bike shops that get treated as the local free-advice
joint by people who should know better (or possibly just use the
internet), and I understand that running any small business is hard
work, frequently punctuated by annoyances, and often terminated by
failure. It's not easy being an entrepreneur, and boutique retail may be
the hardest niche of all.

But I didn't ask my LBS to go into business. I don't think it is either
a library-like public service or a charitable institution. I wish my LBS
gave better advice, had more group rides (some of the shops in Vancouver
do, but none in my area advertise one), and had lower prices. I feel
really sad that they can't compete with MEC's price on cassettes, but I
can do work I trust as much as the repair shop, I can get better advice
from other sources, and I can find pricing cheaper elsewhere.

Maybe Vecchio's is a superior enough shop that it really does deserve to
live, some combo of creating a social bike community, a great retail and
service experience, and useful advice that makes for customer loyalty.
The bike shop equivalent of pleasant flight attendants and better food.

I can't say from here. It sounds like a great place to go for parts, but
it's a long way from Vancouver. What I can say is that I am one sample
of a customer who is only marginally interested in the woes of LBSes,
and will fairly happily shop on price for most of my stuff.

Maybe I'm the kind of customer most shops would be glad to get rid of.
Maybe LBS proprietors mad about mail-order are not fairly compared to a
hub-and-spoke airline CEO complaining about the unfairness of competing
with point-to-point carriers. But my impression is that at least around
where I live, there are an awful lot of bike shops that have earned
their competition, and precious few that set benchmarks for service.

--
Ryan Cousineau, http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

Qui si parla Campagnolo

August 22nd 03, 01:56 PM

Fred-<< How many times (as a shop owner/mech) have you heard...... well
I got it from X Discount but I can't figure it out/it's broken. Dude can
you get it fixed/replaced/warrenteed? >> 

If it is from another place, we generally will not warranty it but if we do,
expect $ to be paid for all the service accomplished, from taking it off the
handlebar(hint, hint, something that we seem to warranty a lot), boxing it,
sending it, replacing it.

But if we install a set of STI, that was bought at Performance, we send them
there for a replacement.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Qui si parla Campagnolo

August 22nd 03, 02:02 PM

Ryan-some snipped-<< Maybe I'm the kind of customer most shops would be glad to
get rid of.
Maybe LBS proprietors mad about mail-order are not fairly compared to a
hub-and-spoke airline CEO complaining about the unfairness of competing
with point-to-point carriers. >> 

Wrong about this. We fault no customer or MO place for buying or selling
anything. I fault manufacturers and distributors who cannot control their
distribution. If MO can get a shimano widget for less-sell it..if a customer
can get a Spegatonni frameset for less, buy it...but I won't fault any bike
shop for not liking the fact Spegatonni's are going out the back door at the
factory in Milano and ending up on E-bay

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Doug Taylor

August 22nd 03, 02:27 PM

Ryan Cousineau > wrote:

>Maybe I'm the kind of customer most shops would be glad to get rid of.
>Maybe LBS proprietors mad about mail-order are not fairly compared to a
>hub-and-spoke airline CEO complaining about the unfairness of competing
>with point-to-point carriers. But my impression is that at least around
>where I live, there are an awful lot of bike shops that have earned
>their competition, and precious few that set benchmarks for service.

I think your situation is fairly typical. Once a cyclist starts
putting in serious mileage on or off-road, they inevitably tend to
wrench their own bikes with greater frequency. The alternative is too
much down time waiting for the LBS to get around to it. It's a
question of degree. If I lack a tool (headset installation, for
example) or run into a problem I can't handle, I'm back to the LBS for
help. The one I usually go to has never turned me away just because I
put the bike together myself and didn't buy so much as a tube from
their shop. Nor is their service any less reliable for my lack of
support. They have more than enough business from others to take up
the slack from the do-it-yourself crowd. Meanwhile, the latter still
buy 95% of our parts on-line and do 95% of our own wrenching.
--dt

Jim Edgar

August 22nd 03, 05:44 PM

Chuck Liu at wrote on 8/21/03 8:50 PM:
> "Jim Edgar" > wrote in message
> ...
>> If the "well managed" shop you speak of has better service, customer
>> relations, reputation, store quality, etc., - and they manage to
>> articulate
>> that difference in word and action - then they will get more customers -
>> far
>> more than they would get by cutting their margin on a headset.
>
> If a well managed shop can provide all of the quality services you mentioned
> above AND provide quality parts for lower prices, don't you think they will
> get EVEN MORE customers?

Yep, that's true. If they didn't have to pay their workers or if the owner
didn't want to take a salary, that'd all work.

But, overhead in retail is a fact of operation - A shop with 2 or three
skilled wrenches and a couple knowledgeable sales people with actual riding
experience has more of it than one person operating out of a trailer and
container complex in Nevada, for example. Or maybe if it's a big discount
operation, they have a few part time high school kids (or the economic
equivilent) who pull and pack the orders.

Retail is an equation - let's say you do $500K in biz and decide to cut your
retail prices by 10%. If your gross margin was 35%, it drops to roughly
28%. Until word gets around that you have HOT PRICES, that means you're
going to take in $50K less. Since the gross profit on that $50K was
$17,500, at your new low gross margin, you need to actually increase sales
by $62,500 to keep the same cash flow. And you probably need that cash flow
because you haven't cut your operating expenses of rent, utilities,
advertising and salaries - all of which come out of that gross profit. This
is why most small shops who jump into discounting go out of business, they
don't work (or don't know how to work) the numbers.

-- Jim

Ryan Cousineau

August 23rd 03, 02:42 AM

In article >,
(Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote:

> Ryan-some snipped-<< Maybe I'm the kind of customer most shops would be glad
> to
> get rid of.
> Maybe LBS proprietors mad about mail-order are not fairly compared to a
> hub-and-spoke airline CEO complaining about the unfairness of competing
> with point-to-point carriers. >> 
>
> Wrong about this. We fault no customer or MO place for buying or selling
> anything. I fault manufacturers and distributors who cannot control their
> distribution. If MO can get a shimano widget for less-sell it..if a customer
> can get a Spegatonni frameset for less, buy it...but I won't fault any bike
> shop for not liking the fact Spegatonni's are going out the back door at the
> factory in Milano and ending up on E-bay

Fair enough; I like that policy :).

The last route you suggested: in your experience, is the back door of
the factory a routine distribution means for some companies?

When I look at mail-order firms, their deals (not always a deal, but to
the extent that they are) seem to fall into three classes:

1) volume discounts or margin reductions: the mail-order company leans
on the manufacturer/distributor to get a better price on a large order,
or reduces the profit margin to themselves

2) close-outs: they buy surplus stock, bankruptcy sales, component
surpluses from frame makers, etc. The key is they get the product
through a non-traditional distribution route from a motivated seller.

3) special arrangement: one friend recently bought an aluminum "Fram

--
Ryan Cousineau, http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

Qui si parla Campagnolo

August 23rd 03, 01:15 PM

Jim-<< Retail is an equation - let's say you do $500K in biz and decide to cut
your
retail prices by 10%. If your gross margin was 35%, it drops to roughly
28%. Until word gets around that you have HOT PRICES, that means you're
going to take in $50K less. Since the gross profit on that $50K was
$17,500, at your new low gross margin, you need to actually increase sales
by $62,500 to keep the same cash flow. And you probably need that cash flow
because you haven't cut your operating expenses of rent, utilities,
advertising and salaries - all of which come out of that gross profit. This
is why most small shops who jump into discounting go out of business, they
don't work (or don't know how to work) the numbers. >> 

C'mon Jim, don't confuse all this with facts or reality.

If a shop has a great rep for superior service, they don't have to discount
their parts, they can charge a fair margin. If people want to save $$, they can
go to the coop, get cheapo parts and no knowledge or service. People will go
there. Does the very best car repair place(called Pinson here in Boulder, for
US cars) discount their parts? Absolutely not.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Qui si parla Campagnolo

August 23rd 03, 01:18 PM

Ryan-<< The last route you suggested: in your experience, is the back door of
the factory a routine distribution means for some companies? >> 

VERY common, particularly in Europe, Italia specifically.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

S. Anderson

August 23rd 03, 02:18 PM

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" > wrote in message
...
>
> C'mon Jim, don't confuse all this with facts or reality.
>
> If a shop has a great rep for superior service, they don't have to
discount
> their parts, they can charge a fair margin. If people want to save $$,
they can
> go to the coop, get cheapo parts and no knowledge or service. People will
go
> there. Does the very best car repair place(called Pinson here in Boulder,
for
> US cars) discount their parts? Absolutely not.
>
> Peter Chisholm
> Vecchio's Bicicletteria
> 1833 Pearl St.
> Boulder, CO, 80302
> (303)440-3535
> http://www.vecchios.com
> "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Now THAT I can agree with! If have far more customers than you can handle,
you can charge more than another place. Supply vs demand. If your store is
empty, maybe you SHOULD be out of business. Just because someone opens a
shop, doesn't mean they have a right to make money.

Cheers,

Scott..

Jim Edgar

August 23rd 03, 06:51 PM

Qui si parla Campagnolo at wrote on 8/23/03 5:15 AM:

> Jim-<< Retail is an equation - let's say you do $500K in biz and decide to cut
> your
> retail prices by 10%. If your gross margin was 35%, it drops to roughly
> 28%. Until word gets around that you have HOT PRICES, that means you're
> going to take in $50K less. Since the gross profit on that $50K was
> $17,500, at your new low gross margin, you need to actually increase sales
> by $62,500 to keep the same cash flow. And you probably need that cash flow
> because you haven't cut your operating expenses of rent, utilities,
> advertising and salaries - all of which come out of that gross profit. This
> is why most small shops who jump into discounting go out of business, they
> don't work (or don't know how to work) the numbers. >> 
>
> C'mon Jim, don't confuse all this with facts or reality.
>

Sorry... I'll try to return to hyperbole and conjecture... ;^)

> If a shop has a great rep for superior service, they don't have to discount
> their parts, they can charge a fair margin. If people want to save $$, they
> can
> go to the coop, get cheapo parts and no knowledge or service. People will go
> there. Does the very best car repair place(called Pinson here in Boulder, for
> US cars) discount their parts? Absolutely not.

That's actually my point, Peter. I was speaking to the poster who said that
the only thing shops have to do is discount their stuff and they will have
better results. My point was that it's actually a _bad_ business model to
mindlessly discount and expect sucess.

The better shops know better, and mix their level of service with
appropriate pricing. I'd much rather see quality parts like CK hubs and
headsets go for the MSRP - those products are worth it.

The great lowering of prices via discount internet/MO really _isn't_ in the
best interest of most cyclists. Yes, I know there are many people who don't
mind buying or making their own headset press for example, but there are a
lot more who just want their bike to run well without having any interest in
diagnostics or home repair.

I still think that what Shimano and Chris King are doing to maintain MSRP is
helpful to many independant shops, because then the customer will have to
evaluate the differences in quality of the work, timeliness of repairs,
proper levels of inventory and general customer service. Y'know, that whole
retail thing...

-- Jim

Qui si parla Campagnolo

August 24th 03, 01:30 PM

scott-<< Now THAT I can agree with! If have far more customers than you can
handle,
you can charge more than another place. >> 

Correct. Our schedule is packed most of the year. Charging less for a part
doesn't give the wrenches any more time in the day. If by adding a 'good
wrench', and pay them properly, they may or may not pay for themselves, as
there are lots of expenses involved with another employee, but selling parts
below margin sure isn't going to help that.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

basjan

August 24th 03, 10:03 PM

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" > wrote in message
...
> Tom-<< For many products, MSRPs are set somewhat above a typical selling
price.
> It's a game, it's a way of making the usual selling price appear to be
> a discount, and thus seem like a better deal. >> 
>
> Perhaps a game for some bike shops, but not ours. We don't inflate the
price
> then say'I'll give you 10% off, 'jus cuz I like the cut of your jib' type
of
> nonsense.
>
> We price everything at MSRP if there is one, and use a standard margin if
there
> is not. We do not price match or anything like that.
>
> << The hell they aren't. >> 
>
> If ya can get a CK hs for $88, go right ahead...Just like a $30 Conti GP
or a
> $140 pair of SP pedals but don't slam a manufacturer for trying to protect
> their retailers or their product.
>
> Peter Chisholm
> Vecchio's Bicicletteria
> 1833 Pearl St.
> Boulder, CO, 80302
> (303)440-3535
> http://www.vecchios.com
> "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

A big issue here is locality as well - Peter's shop is in yuppie heaven
(Boulder, CO). I simply cannot afford Campy prices, MO or LBS (how do you
justify spending $200 on a Record rear derailleur vs. $75 DA?). As a
student I have spent about $1700 on a full Dura Ace Pinarello using Ebay,
MO, and LBS - a bike that would otherwise have cost me around $2500-$3000.
I do most of the work myself (using proper tools I bought MO), except an odd
wheel build or headset installation, when I don't feel too adventurous. So
if I walk into the LBS and ask for a derailleur clamp and the guy quotes me
$35, not willing to budge on the price, and I can get it for $15 through MO,
I feel I have given the LBS a chance. If he was just willing to deal a
little bit... I simply cannot afford it!

Now if you ride a fully loaded "MSRP-paid" C-40 of $5000 (as a well-off
cyclist in yuppie-town or anywhere else, for that matter) and need a $35
clamp, you probably just fork it out and have it installed by someone else
anyway...

You'll have my business if I can afford it as well, a sort of "let's meet
each other halfway"-type situation. I love the smell, excitement, and soul
of a great LBS, but I cannot survive supporting one all the time. I think
many LBS'es have to adapt to the times - the market has changed from a
mainly seller's to a mainly buyer's scenario.

basjan

August 25th 03, 05:01 PM

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" > wrote in message

> A high end Ford isn't the same as a high end Mercedes either. Chorus,
altho
> more expensive as well, is more like DA. Carbon and titanium isn't cheap.

Bad example (I'd rather say a fully loaded Camry vs. top-end Merc), but
exactly my point. It is senseless to pay more than double for the Merc if
you can have a Camry that will last as long, also has leather seats, also
drives at the posted 65mph, has all the other amenities, but may be less
prestigious. Even if it does fail, I can still buy two for less than the
price of one. So in the end it also has a lot to do with marketing of the
"superior" brand, along with perceived value increase vs. a top performing,
long-lasting, alternative. If that is important to a client, so be it, but
don't tell me that the alternative is lacking! It is merely a case of if I
want a Merc, I want a Merc, but I very likely don't need one.

> MSRP for a C-40 frameset/fork/seatpost/stem is $4200, with a group it is a
lot
> more, MSRP..why we don't sell them anymore, you can get a C-40 on-line for
> $5000, complete.

Agian true, but if I buy a $5000 bike, I probably wouldn't mind paying MSRP
on small items. For me, every dollar counts...

> basjan< many LBS'es have to adapt to the times - the market has changed from a
> mainly seller's to a mainly buyer's scenario.
>
> Knowledge, info, service hasn't changed.

Yes, and I am willing to pay for that knowledge/info/service, sometimes
$40/hour, but I have to offset with cheaper parts elsewhere. Remember,
knowledge also comes from learning and experience, so the gap decreases all
the time for small-time DIY "wrenches" like me...if only I could afford all
those gorgeous tools!!

>
> Peter Chisholm
> Vecchio's Bicicletteria
> 1833 Pearl St.
> Boulder, CO, 80302
> (303)440-3535
> http://www.vecchios.com
> "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

basjan

August 26th 03, 03:48 PM

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" > wrote in message
...
> basjan-<< It is senseless to pay more than double for the Merc if
> you can have a Camry that will last as long, also has leather seats, also
> drives at the posted 65mph, has all the other amenities, but may be less
> prestigious. >> 
>
> Mercedes sells all they make. As does Campagnolo and Record.

Again perceived value, while Camry sells more, because it is tremensous bang
for the buck. Not as flashy though...

> basjan-<< It is merely a case of if I
> want a Merc, I want a Merc, but I very likely don't need one. >> 
>
>
> You don't 'need' any bicycle either. These are leisure time pieces of
> equipment, 'fun', afterall. having a bicycle isn't 'practical' in most
senses
> of the word.

And one doesn't need a car, air-conditioning, microwaves, and so on...but in
our case: You have a bike, you need a dearilleur. DA is excellent value
(great performance and durability at a good price), while Campy Rec. has all
of the above plus the flash and status of Record with it's bits and pieces
of carbon/titanium grandeur! So if you want that flash, knock yourself
out...

> Peter Chisholm
> Vecchio's Bicicletteria
> 1833 Pearl St.
> Boulder, CO, 80302
> (303)440-3535
> http://www.vecchios.com
> "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Qui si parla Campagnolo

August 27th 03, 02:11 PM

basjan-<< And one doesn't need a car, >> 

This is a bit of heresy, but with the way towns, cities, etc are designed, I
think some form of 4 wheel transportation is essential for most people. It just
isn't possible to do everything you need to do each day via a bike or bus or
train. Not saying this is a good thing but the conspiracy of the auto
makers/oil companys and how they have applied their power to town design is
there and something we have to live with.

<< You have a bike, you need a dearilleur. DA is excellent value
(great performance and durability at a good price), while Campy Rec. has all
of the above plus the flash and status of Record with it's bits and pieces
of carbon/titanium grandeur! >> 

My point is that similar things at the top of a product list are not
necessarily equal. Materials, design and price make them different, not
comparible altho both at the 'top'.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

bfd

August 27th 03, 06:39 PM

"basjan" > wrote in message >...
> "Qui si parla Campagnolo" > wrote in message
> ...
> > basjan-<< It is senseless to pay more than double for the Merc if
> > you can have a Camry that will last as long, also has leather seats, also
> > drives at the posted 65mph, has all the other amenities, but may be less
> > prestigious. >> 
> >
> > Mercedes sells all they make. As does Campagnolo and Record.
>
> Again perceived value, while Camry sells more, because it is tremensous bang
> for the buck. Not as flashy though...
>
>
> > basjan-<< It is merely a case of if I
> > want a Merc, I want a Merc, but I very likely don't need one. >> 
> >
> >
> > You don't 'need' any bicycle either. These are leisure time pieces of
> > equipment, 'fun', afterall. having a bicycle isn't 'practical' in most
> senses
> > of the word.
>
> And one doesn't need a car, air-conditioning, microwaves, and so on...but in
> our case: You have a bike, you need a dearilleur. DA is excellent value
> (great performance and durability at a good price), while Campy Rec. has all
> of the above plus the flash and status of Record with it's bits and pieces
> of carbon/titanium grandeur! So if you want that flash, knock yourself
> out...
>
I think the issue here is more ergonomics than "what's better". The
first factor you need to look at is which shifter YOU are more
comfortable with. IF you're more comfortable with shimano STI
shifters, than DA or even ultegra is the choice. IF you are more
comfortable with Campy Ergo shifters, than you should choose a Campy
rear der. Yes, if you're mechanically-inclined, it is possible to run
Campy Ergo Shifters with Shimano rear der, see here:

http://www.hubbub.com/ergoleverswshim9.htm

But, the *easiest* thing to do is to run a Campy rear der with Campy
Ergo shifters.

As to value, Peter is right, you should compare material to material,
not each company's perceived top line. Campy CHORUS rear der is the
one that is "equivalent" to Shimano DA rear der in that both are made
out of the same material - aluminum. Granted, Chorus stuff is still
more expensive, but the difference is not much as you state.

Marten Hoffmann

August 28th 03, 11:05 PM

schreef ...
>
> "Marten Hoffmann" > wrote in message
>
> > After going through three so-called "high quality" headsets in five
> > years' time (on an off-road tandem) the CK is a big relief because it's
> > working flawlessly for 7 years now.
> >
> > --
> > Regards,
> > Marten
>
> What do you have to do to a headset to go through 3 in 5 years? Improperly
> installed?

Ride a lot off-road and refuse to pay the money for a real headset,
assuming that they would wear out often anyway. Actually i was being a
bit of a cheapskate; but I learned my lesson!

--
Regards,
Marten

Ryan Cousineau

August 29th 03, 07:48 AM

In article >,
(Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote:

> basjan-<< And one doesn't need a car, >> 
>
> This is a bit of heresy, but with the way towns, cities, etc are designed, I
> think some form of 4 wheel transportation is essential for most people. It
> just
> isn't possible to do everything you need to do each day via a bike or bus or
> train. Not saying this is a good thing but the conspiracy of the auto
> makers/oil companys and how they have applied their power to town design is
> there and something we have to live with.
>
> << You have a bike, you need a dearilleur. DA is excellent value
> (great performance and durability at a good price), while Campy Rec. has all
> of the above plus the flash and status of Record with it's bits and pieces
> of carbon/titanium grandeur! >> 
>
> My point is that similar things at the top of a product list are not
> necessarily equal. Materials, design and price make them different, not
> comparible altho both at the 'top'.

Well, derailleurs are pretty easy to compare. They're not like Swarovski
Crystal, where taste is the key arbiter to desirability and perceived
value. Someone here suggested that comparing groups of similar materials
was most accurate, but I reject this as looking at features rather than
functionality. Being made of Ti doesn't make a component better; being
lighter does.

I posit that these are the five major factors in the purchase of a
component group, in rough order of importance:

-Price
-Performance
-Reliability
-Weight
-Aesthetics

Price is tricky. It probably varies in rank more than any other factor.
There are certainly people (DA/Record buyers) for whom price is simply
not a factor (they can afford any available gruppo) or even an inverse
factor (they have a preference for the "best"). I, on the other hand,
buy Sora.

I'd suggest that performance is a wash: Any Brand S or Campy road group
shifts, brakes, and cranks great, with enough detail differences to sway
some people either way (because you like shifting from the drops or
prefer brake levers that don't go sideways, for example).

Reliability should be quantifiable, but if warranty repair rate stats
have ever escaped from the Shimano or Campagnolo world headquarters, I
haven't seen them. I'll let Peter and Sheldon duke it out with regard to
the relative durability.

I'm going to controversially assert that there's no objective preference
for Shimano or Campy's top stuff (DA vs. Record) in performance or
reliability. Both are really functional and don't break often. Most
importantly, reports from this group indicate that neither DA or Record
is notably more durable or better-shifting than the respective lesser
gruppos of each company. So getting the best stuff doesn't make your
bike shift much better, if at all.

So the question is, how do these companies differentiate their cheap and
expensive groups? Casting aside features designed to make them
incrementally more durable or high-performance than lesser groups
(Shimano's new two-piece crank/BB and 10v rear, for example), they
mainly differ from lesser groups by weight.

Weight is easy to compare, as figures are widely available. You can even
do a part-to-part comparison and build a super-gruppo of the lightest
compatible bits of each group (DA BB and Campy derailleurs, for a
made-up example).

The easiest things to quantify are thus weight and price. The cost of
each group and the weight of each group are available, so just set up a
matrix of group weights and prices (and a ratio of the two) to find out
the relative rankings of all component groups.

I won't consider Aesthetics here. De gustibus non disputandum est.

Let the games begin,
--
Ryan Cousineau, http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club