Kid's 24" hybrid, non-mountain bikes, where to buy in the U.S.?

[SMS]

Today I did a Cub Scout meeting for my son's den, where we did bicycle
maintenance. All the kids brought their bikes to the meeting. Most of
them were crap, and most were too small for the kids (9-10 y.o.), who
really should be moving up from 20" wheeled bikes to 24" wheeled bikes.

What I'd like to do is to recommend some good bikes to these parents,
all of whom can probably afford them. They really need something like a
24" wheeled small hybrid. None of the kids go off-road or do any real
BMX riding, all of the riding is on streets and multi-use paths. They
don't need suspension forks, they should have street tires, like 24 x
1.5"-1.9" or so.

What I'm looking for is something like what's at
"http://www.mielebicycles.com/en/velo_hybride_confort.asp?BIKE=BIELLA&COLOR=BLEU,BLANC"
or
"http://www.mielebicycles.com/en/velo_hybride_confort.asp?BIKE=TORINO&COLOR=ROUGEBONBON,ARGENT"

but these are only sold in Canada. Pretty good price at CAD $200-250,
which would be something that the parents would probably ante up for.
Another good thing about this bike is that it's suitable for boys or
girls, and a lot of the boys in the den have little sisters to whom the
bike would be passed to when they outgrow it.

I can't find a single kids bike in that price range, i.e. $200-250 U.S.
that is suitable _and_ that's sold in the U.S.. There are lots of adult
bikes in that price range that would fit the bill. I still want a triple
crankset (or a 3x7 like the Miele Biella), as there are multi-use trails
around here with relatively steep parts. I saw the Fuji Boulevard 2.0,
"http://www.fujibikes.com/2007/bikes.asp?id=382&subcat=" which would be
good, but it isn't sold in the U.S..

So far I've checked Bianchi, Diamondback, Fuji, GT, Jamis, Mongoose,
Raleigh, Schwinn, Specialized, & Trek.

Is there some law or something that prevents these sorts of bicycles
from being sold in the U.S.? I've seen them in Europe, Asia, and now
even in Canada, but not in the U.S..

Absent any encouragement, these kids will end up on another Target bike.
These parents are not the sort of people that are going to buy a
mountain bike, and then spend more money on different tires or wheels, etc.

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> Today I did a Cub Scout meeting for my son's den, where we did bicycle
> maintenance. All the kids brought their bikes to the meeting. Most of them
> were crap, and most were too small for the kids (9-10 y.o.), who really
> should be moving up from 20" wheeled bikes to 24" wheeled bikes.
>
> What I'd like to do is to recommend some good bikes to these parents, all
> of whom can probably afford them. They really need something like a 24"
> wheeled small hybrid. None of the kids go off-road or do any real BMX
> riding, all of the riding is on streets and multi-use paths. They don't
> need suspension forks, they should have street tires, like 24 x 1.5"-1.9"
> or so.

Unfortunately, what you're looking for have historically been bikes that
haven't held up to what kids that age put them through. I used to say that
the ultimate in raw destructive power was a 12 year old with a paper route.
Kids don't have paper routes anymore, but the problem remains... kids at
that age typically don't take very good care of their bikes, and curbs &
potholes tend to be challenges rather than things to avoid. Thus the market
is filled with heavier mountain-style bikes, *or* more-expensive 24" hybrids
that are just now making it to market, and likely won't have the durability
issues because the pricing pre-selects the customer (somebody spending that
much money on a kids bike probably also has another, heavier bike in the
stable).

I'm all for the type of bike you're looking for, and could definitely sell
some. But we'd have to be very careful instructing people how they can, and
cannot, be used.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"SMS" > wrote in message
...
> Today I did a Cub Scout meeting for my son's den, where we did bicycle
> maintenance. All the kids brought their bikes to the meeting. Most of them
> were crap, and most were too small for the kids (9-10 y.o.), who really
> should be moving up from 20" wheeled bikes to 24" wheeled bikes.
>
> What I'd like to do is to recommend some good bikes to these parents, all
> of whom can probably afford them. They really need something like a 24"
> wheeled small hybrid. None of the kids go off-road or do any real BMX
> riding, all of the riding is on streets and multi-use paths. They don't
> need suspension forks, they should have street tires, like 24 x 1.5"-1.9"
> or so.
>
> What I'm looking for is something like what's at
> "http://www.mielebicycles.com/en/velo_hybride_confort.asp?BIKE=BIELLA&COLOR=BLEU,BLANC"
> or
> "http://www.mielebicycles.com/en/velo_hybride_confort.asp?BIKE=TORINO&COLOR=ROUGEBONBON,ARGENT"
>
> but these are only sold in Canada. Pretty good price at CAD $200-250,
> which would be something that the parents would probably ante up for.
> Another good thing about this bike is that it's suitable for boys or
> girls, and a lot of the boys in the den have little sisters to whom the
> bike would be passed to when they outgrow it.
>
> I can't find a single kids bike in that price range, i.e. $200-250 U.S.
> that is suitable _and_ that's sold in the U.S.. There are lots of adult
> bikes in that price range that would fit the bill. I still want a triple
> crankset (or a 3x7 like the Miele Biella), as there are multi-use trails
> around here with relatively steep parts. I saw the Fuji Boulevard 2.0,
> "http://www.fujibikes.com/2007/bikes.asp?id=382&subcat=" which would be
> good, but it isn't sold in the U.S..
>
> So far I've checked Bianchi, Diamondback, Fuji, GT, Jamis, Mongoose,
> Raleigh, Schwinn, Specialized, & Trek.
>
> Is there some law or something that prevents these sorts of bicycles from
> being sold in the U.S.? I've seen them in Europe, Asia, and now even in
> Canada, but not in the U.S..
>
> Absent any encouragement, these kids will end up on another Target bike.
> These parents are not the sort of people that are going to buy a mountain
> bike, and then spend more money on different tires or wheels, etc.

[SMS]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

<snip>

> I'm all for the type of bike you're looking for, and could definitely sell
> some. But we'd have to be very careful instructing people how they can, and
> cannot, be used.

Maybe you should become the first U.S. Miele dealer, since none of the
companies that sell in the U.S. seem to be interested in this market.

Maybe it's just the kids in my area, but the destructiveness level of
the kids at my kids' schools is pretty low. What were we all riding
prior to mountain and BMX bikes?

It's just amazing to me that not even one such bike is apparently sold
in the U.S.. For my own 9 y.o. son, I de-mountainized a suspension-less
Diamondback 24" wheeled bike that I picked up used. Of course I had to
special order the 24" non-mountain tires, no store around stocked them,
but at least Specialized sells them, or I could have ordered the
Schwalbe Marathon 24" tires online. Now he's able to ride with us on 30
mile or so rides, and is off the Burley kid-back on the tandem.

Every time we're on the Shoreline Trail, Sawyer Camp Trail, Los Gatos
Creek Trail, or American River Trail, most of the kids are struggling to
keep up because they're on heavy mountain bikes, with the wrong tires.

I did find one store that will sell the Miele bicycles online and will
ship to the U.S., though the shipping charges are rather high. U.S. $230
plus $55 shipping and duty for the Torino, though no sales tax, and they
give you a CDN $30 gift certificate to use in their on-line shop (they
say it's to defray the cost of taking the bicycle to a bicycle shop for
assembly). We may try to do a group buy to get a lower price and lower
shipping. $285 is really more than most people will spend on a kid's
bicycle, though $225 might be persuadable.

Another thing I've seen recently is kids riding folding bikes. Since
these often have very long seat posts, and very adjustable height stems,
they don't outgrow them, though the reach is often too long for them.

[[email protected]]

On May 21, 11:50 pm, SMS > wrote:

> Another thing I've seen recently is kids riding folding bikes. Since
> these often have very long seat posts, and very adjustable height
> stems, they don't outgrow them, though the reach is often too long
> for them.

Until recently all the sub-teen bike club member kids around here were
on folding bikes. Xiao Laohu (8) got a special ordered Trek kid's
specific mountain bike last summer which caused his greatest
competitor Xie Rongyu (5) to proclaim that he wanted to spend his
(sadly woefully inadequate) prize money from 1st place at Shimano
Bikers' Festival kids category to "change his frame" since changing
your frame was what the big people grown up cyclists were all doing
and "look dad look look look _he's_ got a _real_ bike."

Now, all the sub-teen bike club member kids except Xiao Laohu are on
folding bikes.

The bike club parents are unwilling to have their kids ride the sort
of cheap Chinese crap that is available at mere shops which sell
bicycle shaped objects but even the bike shop can't get kids bikes in
without a special order.

-M

[landotter]

On May 21, 12:48 am, SMS > wrote:
> Today I did a Cub Scout meeting for my son's den, where we did bicycle
> maintenance. All the kids brought their bikes to the meeting. Most of
> them were crap, and most were too small for the kids (9-10 y.o.), who
> really should be moving up from 20" wheeled bikes to 24" wheeled bikes.


There are plenty of 24" mtbs in your price range. Swap out the tires.

[Jim Flom]

"SMS" > wrote in message
...
> Today I did a Cub Scout meeting for my son's den, where we did bicycle
> maintenance. All the kids brought their bikes to the meeting. Most of them
> were crap, and most were too small for the kids (9-10 y.o.), who really
> should be moving up from 20" wheeled bikes to 24" wheeled bikes.
>
> What I'd like to do is to recommend some good bikes to these parents, all
> of whom can probably afford them. They really need something like a 24"
> wheeled small hybrid. None of the kids go off-road or do any real BMX
> riding, all of the riding is on streets and multi-use paths. They don't
> need suspension forks, they should have street tires, like 24 x 1.5"-1.9"
> or so.
>
> What I'm looking for is something like what's at
> "http://www.mielebicycles.com/en/velo_hybride_confort.asp?BIKE=BIELLA&COLOR=BLEU,BLANC"
> or
> "http://www.mielebicycles.com/en/velo_hybride_confort.asp?BIKE=TORINO&COLOR=ROUGEBONBON,ARGENT"
>
> but these are only sold in Canada. Pretty good price at CAD $200-250,
> which would be something that the parents would probably ante up for.
> Another good thing about this bike is that it's suitable for boys or
> girls, and a lot of the boys in the den have little sisters to whom the
> bike would be passed to when they outgrow it.
>
> I can't find a single kids bike in that price range, i.e. $200-250 U.S.
> that is suitable _and_ that's sold in the U.S.. There are lots of adult
> bikes in that price range that would fit the bill. I still want a triple
> crankset (or a 3x7 like the Miele Biella), as there are multi-use trails
> around here with relatively steep parts. I saw the Fuji Boulevard 2.0,
> "http://www.fujibikes.com/2007/bikes.asp?id=382&subcat=" which would be
> good, but it isn't sold in the U.S..
>
> So far I've checked Bianchi, Diamondback, Fuji, GT, Jamis, Mongoose,
> Raleigh, Schwinn, Specialized, & Trek.
>
> Is there some law or something that prevents these sorts of bicycles from
> being sold in the U.S.? I've seen them in Europe, Asia, and now even in
> Canada, but not in the U.S..
>
> Absent any encouragement, these kids will end up on another Target bike.
> These parents are not the sort of people that are going to buy a mountain
> bike, and then spend more money on different tires or wheels, etc.

If you're close enough to cross the border, just go get one. Otherwise,
consider ordering one and having it shipped. Even with customs the cost may
be worth it.

JF

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> There are plenty of 24" mtbs in your price range. Swap out the tires.

He's looking for something a bit lighter though, and definitely doesn't need
the suspension fork.

--Mike--
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com

[SMS]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>> There are plenty of 24" mtbs in your price range. Swap out the tires.
>
> He's looking for something a bit lighter though, and definitely doesn't need
> the suspension fork.

Also, a lot of the mountain bike rims are too wide to accept tires such
as 24 x 1.5".

I should point out that it's not really for me anyway. If I needed such
a bike, I wouldn't hesitate to order one from Canada and have it
shipped. It's for the other kids/parents in Cub scouts that want advice
on what to buy and where to buy.

I can't start with "buy this bike, then go order some different wheels,
tires, and tubes, change them out, re-adjust the brakes, don't forget to
get a compatible freewheel for the new rear wheel, etc." It's not just
the expense, though that's part of it, it's that people want to just go
buy a bike for their kid, not make a career out of it.

It's so easy just to walk into Target or Wal-Mart and buy something. It
looks fine when it's new, the customers for these bikes don't have the
slightest idea about the differences in components, frames, etc., and
the kids will only ride it around the block or at the school playground,
and they figure that in two years the kid will outgrow it.

Since the parents also have crappy bikes that they couldn't go on a ride
of more than a couple of miles either. I just gave up on two of the
adult bikes yesterday, a Roadmaster, and a Magna (Target). The brakes
were just hopeless, and the wheels so out of true on one of them that to
fix the brakes would have been pointless. I told them to go to Chain
Reaction where they love fixing Roadmasters and Magnas (just kidding)

I really want to take the scouts on some longer bicycle rides, but I'm
resigned to the fact that this is not going to happen. I'd spend the
whole ride trying to keep their bikes in good enough shape to keep moving.

[SMS]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>> There are plenty of 24" mtbs in your price range. Swap out the tires.
>
> He's looking for something a bit lighter though, and definitely doesn't need
> the suspension fork.
>
> --Mike--
> Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReaction.com

Not to worry, GMC has come to the rescue:

"http://www.amazon.com/GMC-Denali-Boys-24-Inch-Road/dp/B000GU68S2"

As expected, the reviews generally state that the brakes and dérailleurs
suck.

[landotter]

On May 21, 2:46 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" > wrote:
> > There are plenty of 24" mtbs in your price range. Swap out the tires.
>
> He's looking for something a bit lighter though, and definitely doesn't need
> the suspension fork.
>

Seems to me that a mtb with smooth tires is a great choice for kids
that age. Don't have spawn of my own, but my friends kids just kill
bikes. They've come to the conclusion that a moderately priced bike
shop bmx is the only thing their kids can't destroy. :-P

I did a quick search as I was curious now about 24" road bikes, and
amusingly enough, Amazon has those GMC Denial jobbers in a 24". $150
As much as I'd not like to shop there, one could probably give one of
those horrors a once over in the workstand and make a bike out of it.
I'd repack everything and add some cross levers. Plus, they've got a
pink model for the girlies. Woohoo!

Indeed, all my local shops have in 24" are mtbs. I even checked the
REI site, as the Novara bikes tend to be pretty sensible, but nothing.

AFAIK, that Denali is sourced from Pacific by the horrible suck job
which is Walmart--but people have been reporting back that it doesn't
fall apart, and does the job apart from needed to have the wheels
brought up to tension. OK, I have to go now, Satan's tapping on my
shoulder grinning that I mentioned such a company.

[SMS]

landotter wrote:

> I did a quick search as I was curious now about 24" road bikes, and
> amusingly enough, Amazon has those GMC Denial jobbers in a 24". $150
> As much as I'd not like to shop there, one could probably give one of
> those horrors a once over in the workstand and make a bike out of it.
> I'd repack everything and add some cross levers. Plus, they've got a
> pink model for the girlies. Woohoo!

So is there a market that the real bicycle manufacturers are missing, by
not having a $250 kid's bike similar to the $150 Denali, with decent
brakes and gearing that doesn't need the once over in the work stand?
I'd assume that Trek, Specialized, et al's marketing people believe
there is no market, though the market appears to exist outside the U.S.,
and for bicycles from Amazon and mass market retailers.

[landotter]

On May 21, 5:17 pm, SMS > wrote:
> landotter wrote:
> > I did a quick search as I was curious now about 24" road bikes, and
> > amusingly enough, Amazon has those GMC Denial jobbers in a 24". $150
> > As much as I'd not like to shop there, one could probably give one of
> > those horrors a once over in the workstand and make a bike out of it.
> > I'd repack everything and add some cross levers. Plus, they've got a
> > pink model for the girlies. Woohoo!
>
> So is there a market that the real bicycle manufacturers are missing, by
> not having a $250 kid's bike similar to the $150 Denali, with decent
> brakes and gearing that doesn't need the once over in the work stand?
> I'd assume that Trek, Specialized, et al's marketing people believe
> there is no market, though the market appears to exist outside the U.S.,
> and for bicycles from Amazon and mass market retailers.

Move to Sweden and you can get any flavor of bike in a 24"!

This is what a good kids bike looks like over there these days:

http://www.crescent.se/cyklar/junior/1121

Dynohub on a kid's bike? Why not?

[SMS]

landotter wrote:

> Move to Sweden and you can get any flavor of bike in a 24"!
>
> This is what a good kids bike looks like over there these days:
>
> http://www.crescent.se/cyklar/junior/1121
>
> Dynohub on a kid's bike? Why not?

Yeah, I think the U.S. bicycle companies have their head up their butt.
They keep saying that certain bikes won't sell in the U.S., but they
don't understand that it's partially up to them to drive the market.

Look at the declining popularity of mountain bikes for adults, in favor
of more practical designs. Why hasn't the trend filtered down? If these
bikes sell in Sweden, Canada, Korea, Japan, etc., what is so different
about the U.S.? Is it the whole SUV mentality?

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> Not to worry, GMC has come to the rescue:
>
> "http://www.amazon.com/GMC-Denali-Boys-24-Inch-Road/dp/B000GU68S2"
>
> As expected, the reviews generally state that the brakes and dérailleurs
> suck.

It's still a bit on the big side for some though. 17" frame with 26"
standover height. But probably more relevant, in terms of fitting, will be
the reach from seat to handlebar.

I'll be interested in hearing how it works out!

--Mike--
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> So is there a market that the real bicycle manufacturers are missing, by
> not having a $250 kid's bike similar to the $150 Denali, with decent
> brakes and gearing that doesn't need the once over in the work stand? I'd
> assume that Trek, Specialized, et al's marketing people believe there is
> no market, though the market appears to exist outside the U.S., and for
> bicycles from Amazon and mass market retailers.

There are many "world" bikes that Trek makes, that don't make it into the
US. This year, for the first time, we got a real 24" hybrid for kids, but
it's not a lower-end model ($429.99). The first year they brought in the 24"
"racing" bikes they were a complete flop, as the market for a $600 bike that
a kid will grow out of is exceedingly small. In the US. In Europe, they're
very popular. Guess they're more sensible, or perhaps have an easier time of
selling used bikes for reasonable prices.

--Mike--
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> Look at the declining popularity of mountain bikes for adults, in favor of
> more practical designs. Why hasn't the trend filtered down? If these bikes
> sell in Sweden, Canada, Korea, Japan, etc., what is so different about the
> U.S.? Is it the whole SUV mentality?

I think it's more respect for durable, long-term goods in Europe than we
find in the US. People don't get upset here when something breaks down. They
just throw it out, figured they wasted their money, and thus are even
less-willing the next time to spend a few more $$$ for something decent.

Thus our market tends to be driven more by fad than by what's practical. In
my humble opinion anyway.

Ultimately, some manufacturer will finally catch on and recognize what needs
to be added to a bike sold in the US to make it hugely popular.

Cup holders.

--Mike--
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com

[SMS]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>> Not to worry, GMC has come to the rescue:
>>
>> "http://www.amazon.com/GMC-Denali-Boys-24-Inch-Road/dp/B000GU68S2"
>>
>> As expected, the reviews generally state that the brakes and dérailleurs
>> suck.
>
> It's still a bit on the big side for some though. 17" frame with 26"
> standover height. But probably more relevant, in terms of fitting, will be
> the reach from seat to handlebar.
>
> I'll be interested in hearing how it works out!
>
> --Mike--
> Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReaction.com
>
>

Oh I'm not getting anything like that, nor would I recommend it, but
it's interesting that the only kid-like road bike under $400 seems to be
only available from mass marketers.

[SMS]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

> Thus our market tends to be driven more by fad than by what's practical. In
> my humble opinion anyway.

Yeah but the manufacturers often seem to create the fads. Certainly that
was the case with mountain bikes. Go tell Trek to create a new fad.

> Ultimately, some manufacturer will finally catch on and recognize what needs
> to be added to a bike sold in the US to make it hugely popular.
>
> Cup holders.

"http://tinyurl.com/2fhcso"

Don't you sell these at your stores?

Now the key is to not get greedy, and to do some marketing. Install the
cup holder on all the non-racing bikes in your stores. Suddenly you'll
have something that the customer can't get at any other store. Offer it
for $10 extra then let the customer think they're getting a great deal
by bargaining with you to include it at no extra cost.

I remember reading some story of when Honda introduced the cup holder on
the Accord, and the Camry of the same year didn't have one. The cup
holder _was_ the deciding factor for many buyers, torn between two very
similar vehicles that were similarly priced.

[SMS]

SMS wrote:

> What I'm looking for is something like what's at
> "http://www.mielebicycles.com/en/velo_hybride_confort.asp?BIKE=BIELLA&COLOR=BLEU,BLANC"
> or
> "http://www.mielebicycles.com/en/velo_hybride_confort.asp?BIKE=TORINO&COLOR=ROUGEBONBON,ARGENT"

Well to follow up on my own post, and replies from others, there seem to
be no such bikes sold in the U.S. other than a couple of very low-end
bikes from Huffy (Blackwater, available at Target).

To buy the Miele bicycles on-line from Canada, see:

"http://www.brauns.com/gc/gc_item.exe?K=MIELE-TORINOJR24HYBBIKE" ($213)
"http://www.brauns.com/gc/gc_item.exe?K=MIELE-BIELLAJR24HYBBIKE" ($230)

Shipping is about $55.

[landotter]

On May 22, 12:26 pm, SMS > wrote:
> SMS wrote:
> > What I'm looking for is something like what's at
> > "http://www.mielebicycles.com/en/velo_hybride_confort.asp?BIKE=BIELLA&..."
> > or
> > "http://www.mielebicycles.com/en/velo_hybride_confort.asp?BIKE=TORINO&..."
>
> Well to follow up on my own post, and replies from others, there seem to
> be no such bikes sold in the U.S. other than a couple of very low-end
> bikes from Huffy (Blackwater, available at Target).
>
> To buy the Miele bicycles on-line from Canada, see:
>
> "http://www.brauns.com/gc/gc_item.exe?K=MIELE-TORINOJR24HYBBIKE" ($213)
> "http://www.brauns.com/gc/gc_item.exe?K=MIELE-BIELLAJR24HYBBIKE" ($230)
>
> Shipping is about $55.

Add $25 for duty charges as well. So about $300 when all is said and
done, pretty expensive for a kid's 7 speed bike. For that kinda
cabbage, I'd actually buy one of those GMCs and see if I could make it
more kid friendly, or even return it if the quality truly was
appalling. It's not like the Miele is specced any nicer by the looks
of things. I'd probably swap out the bar on the GMC for something more
kid friendly, or add cross extensions. I'm wondering if those twist
shifters would work on a flat bar or some moustache bars...Pricing it
up, you could go flat bar with Tourney shifters, a basic bar, and some
cheapie levers for $30ish extra.

[SMS]

landotter wrote:

> Add $25 for duty charges as well. So about $300 when all is said and
> done, pretty expensive for a kid's 7 speed bike.

When you go to the total, there is no duty (or it's included). So the
total would be $286 for the 21 speed and $269 for the 7 speed. I
reversed the two prices above.

> For that kinda
> cabbage, I'd actually buy one of those GMCs and see if I could make it
> more kid friendly, or even return it if the quality truly was
> appalling. It's not like the Miele is specced any nicer by the looks
> of things. I'd probably swap out the bar on the GMC for something more
> kid friendly, or add cross extensions. I'm wondering if those twist
> shifters would work on a flat bar or some moustache bars...Pricing it
> up, you could go flat bar with Tourney shifters, a basic bar, and some
> cheapie levers for $30ish extra.

Yes, I was thinking the same thing. I think that those shifters would
work on a flat bar just fine. I think for $200-225 you could turn the
Denali into something decent.

I also think that maybe a step-through frame 13.5" hybrid bike would be
retrofittable by reversing the stem, and maybe by getting rid of the
suspension seat post so the seat could go lower.