Interesting bikes at the Target website.

[landotter]

I sometimes waste a few minutes on the Target or Wally World websites
looking at bikes, as it's a mainstream place to look at trends.
Today's browse saw some pretty fun and funky beach cruisers, which are
a good buy at such a place if you want a real a beater for campus or
something similar.

Saw a couple pretty practical looking bike shaped objects, one was a
pretty normal trekking bike:

http://tinyurl.com/2n5sgo

And a "Cadillac" bike (giggle), with an SA 8 speed hub and drum
brakes!:

http://tinyurl.com/39h4gh

Woohoo! Back rest!

The Wally World site even suggests that we can use their road bike
series for commuting, and not just hanging in the garage! How
unamerican is that? That Schwinn "Varsity" they're selling looks like
it could actually be ridable, compared to the $79 turds they've been
pushing for years.

Not the place I'd get a bike, but if you live in Fife Alabama or
Podunk Arkansas and your community consists of a fry joint and a Wally
World, your choices are getting better.

[Just A User]

landotter wrote:

> Not the place I'd get a bike, but if you live in Fife Alabama or
> Podunk Arkansas and your community consists of a fry joint and a Wally
> World, your choices are getting better.
>

Now I don't live either place, but IF I did, and I was not currently a
cyclist, I think I might make the trip to a village that HAD a real bike
shop, just to see what they had to offer versus the x-marts.

Ken

[catzz66]

landotter wrote:
>
> Not the place I'd get a bike, but if you live in Fife Alabama or
> Podunk Arkansas and your community consists of a fry joint and a Wally
> World, your choices are getting better.
>

For some people, the Mart's under 100 dollar offering sets a price in
their minds. They don't know enough about it to know the difference
between a $100 bike at a store like that and a real entry level bike at
a local shop for a few hundred more. There's not a lot you can do about
it except try to give them better information without sounding like a
bike snob.

[SMS]

landotter wrote:
> I sometimes waste a few minutes on the Target or Wally World websites
> looking at bikes, as it's a mainstream place to look at trends.
> Today's browse saw some pretty fun and funky beach cruisers, which are
> a good buy at such a place if you want a real a beater for campus or
> something similar.
>
> Saw a couple pretty practical looking bike shaped objects, one was a
> pretty normal trekking bike:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2n5sgo

Hmm, is that a dynamo headlight on there?

Not much information on the bicycle. I looked at a bigger picture of it
but I couldn't read the name.


>
> And a "Cadillac" bike (giggle), with an SA 8 speed hub and drum
> brakes!:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/39h4gh
>
> Woohoo! Back rest!

Oh my, looks like another innovation from Taiwan.

[landotter]

On May 21, 3:06 pm, Just A User > wrote:
> landotter wrote:
> > Not the place I'd get a bike, but if you live in Fife Alabama or
> > Podunk Arkansas and your community consists of a fry joint and a Wally
> > World, your choices are getting better.
>
> Now I don't live either place, but IF I did, and I was not currently a
> cyclist, I think I might make the trip to a village that HAD a real bike
> shop, just to see what they had to offer versus the x-marts.
>

Thing is, most folks wouldn't. They'd get up on a Saturday, and it'd
be 80 and sunny, and they'd think, "hey, let's get us some bikes!" A
lot of folks that aren't into cycling don't understand the vast
quality differences between a $80 bikes and a $350 model. What Wally
World and others are now selling are a lot of $200 bikes that'll last
a good long while. They'll be heavy, but they'll work. Actually, the 7
speed systems on such things are often super reliable, as it's such
established tech. Yeah, they might be better off going to a bike shop,
but a lot of folks wouldn't know to, so I'm glad that the evil giant
is offering something better than absolute crap.

[landotter]

On May 21, 4:00 pm, SMS > wrote:
> landotter wrote:
> > I sometimes waste a few minutes on the Target or Wally World websites
> > looking at bikes, as it's a mainstream place to look at trends.
> > Today's browse saw some pretty fun and funky beach cruisers, which are
> > a good buy at such a place if you want a real a beater for campus or
> > something similar.
>
> > Saw a couple pretty practical looking bike shaped objects, one was a
> > pretty normal trekking bike:
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/2n5sgo
>
> Hmm, is that a dynamo headlight on there?

Probably a frighteningly awful bottle dynamo! Likely cheaper than
sourcing an LED front light.

>
> Not much information on the bicycle. I looked at a bigger picture of it
> but I couldn't read the name.
>
>
>
> > And a "Cadillac" bike (giggle), with an SA 8 speed hub and drum
> > brakes!:
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/39h4gh
>
> > Woohoo! Back rest!
>
> Oh my, looks like another innovation from Taiwan.

Be the first on your block with velo-lumbar action! I wonder if it's
got a coin slot and vibrates?

[SMS]

landotter wrote:

> Thing is, most folks wouldn't. They'd get up on a Saturday, and it'd
> be 80 and sunny, and they'd think, "hey, let's get us some bikes!"

The problem is that these slightly better bicycles are usually not sold
in the stores, they are usually on-line only, at least for Target,
Wal-Mart, and Costco. The models sold in stores are the lowest end.

I've often listened to a good bicycle sales person at a shop, and they
can explain the difference between a department store bicycle and what
they sell, without insulting the customer. With the expectation that a
bicycle should cost somewhere around the $60 that Target sells their
lowest end bikes for, it's a tough sell explaining why someone should be
spending $300 or more.

[landotter]

On May 21, 5:25 pm, SMS > wrote:
> landotter wrote:
> > Thing is, most folks wouldn't. They'd get up on a Saturday, and it'd
> > be 80 and sunny, and they'd think, "hey, let's get us some bikes!"
>
> The problem is that these slightly better bicycles are usually not sold
> in the stores, they are usually on-line only, at least for Target,
> Wal-Mart, and Costco. The models sold in stores are the lowest end.

Both my local Target and Walmart sell so called "comfort" bikes for
around $150. They're good enough that when they break, people can take
them to a bike shop to be fixed with normal parts, as opposed to the
$80 models, that I've seen folks bring into shops with horrific faults
that would cost way more than it's worth to fix. The bikes have
provisions for racks and fenders, so for $200 somebody can build an OK
commuter. The quality level is the same as what I've seen on entry
level city bikes in Sweden. The drivetrains are just fine, but they
gimp out on frame welds, stem, bars, post and other places where you
can stick some steel and it won't matter except for the weight.

Certainly I'd rather people visit a bike collective and make a bike
from hemp, but not everybody's got such resources.

[di]

"landotter" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Thing is, most folks wouldn't. They'd get up on a Saturday, and it'd
> be 80 and sunny, and they'd think, "hey, let's get us some bikes!" A
> lot of folks that aren't into cycling don't understand the vast
> quality differences between a $80 bikes and a $350 model. What Wally
> World and others are now selling are a lot of $200 bikes that'll last
> a good long while. They'll be heavy, but they'll work. Actually, the 7
> speed systems on such things are often super reliable, as it's such
> established tech. Yeah, they might be better off going to a bike shop,
> but a lot of folks wouldn't know to, so I'm glad that the evil giant
> is offering something better than absolute crap.

A lot of these bikes are bought because bike stores don't do their job very
well. My first bike was a Department Store Bike, I looked at them
Department Store = about $150, Bike Shop = $400+, no one took time to
explain fit, components, service, etc. They did say it has Shimano "this
and that", but not knowing a thing about "this and that", it didn't mean a
thing to me. The Department Store Bike also had Shimano "this and that",
only poorer quality. Results I had a 35lb bike, the nice chrome plated
handle bar rusted in the first year, the brakes & steel wheels would not
work when they got wet, cables corroded the first to a point where it would
not shift.

[DougC]

catzz66 wrote:
>
> For some people, the Mart's under 100 dollar offering sets a price in
> their minds. They don't know enough about it to know the difference
> between a $100 bike at a store like that and a real entry level bike at
> a local shop for a few hundred more. There's not a lot you can do about
> it except try to give them better information without sounding like a
> bike snob.

I have noticed this, passing through Wal-Mart getting other things--that
the bikes they sell LOOK right. They're still heavy and likely POS's,
but if you look at them, they /appear/ about the same as what the LBS's
sell. They don't LOOK considerably lower-quality, unless you know the
details to look for.

In the past I know (a few years back) the bearings on low-end W-M bikes
were usually very poor, low-quality, and without even so much as dust
covers so they wouldn't hold grease at all (even bottom brackets on
BMX/MTB's!).
--------
I will gently try to explain the advantages of a better-quality item,
but even so I know of far more (US)people who take their bicycles out of
the garage once or twice a year than people who take them out even once
a month....

....So then the question becomes--if the Wal-Mart bikes are built like
crap, but the typical customer /never/ manages to wear the thing out
anyway,,, what's the argument left against buying it???
I don't know.
I don't know how to get anyone interested in riding who doesn't want
to.... -but if they're not interested in riding much, then most all the
arguments for buying a quality bike are rather moot anyway.
~

[Ron Hardin]

I ride Huffys 8,000 miles a year, and they do fine. Generally I'll
replace the BB 3 or 4 times (Huffy sells parts too), and the usual
chainwheel, freewheel and chain swaps; and the bike lasts about 50k
miles before enough parts need fixing _at the same time_ so that it's
cheaper to buy a whole new bike than replace them one by one.

I usually carry a pretty heavy load on them on the way home and the
(MTB) wheels stay true the whole time. No wheel bearing problems
whatsoever. The only bearing needing attention is the BB, from
regular wear. Just pop out the races and put in new races and
whatever goes in there (Ashtabula crank or cotterless spindle,
depending on model).

I understand it's popular to talk the mart bikes down, but they
really do work.
--
Ron Hardin


On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

[Ozark Bicycle]

On May 21, 2:59 pm, landotter > wrote:
> I sometimes waste a few minutes on the Target or Wally World websites
> looking at bikes, as it's a mainstream place to look at trends.
> Today's browse saw some pretty fun and funky beach cruisers, which are
> a good buy at such a place if you want a real a beater for campus or
> something similar.
>
> Saw a couple pretty practical looking bike shaped objects, one was a
> pretty normal trekking bike:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2n5sgo
>
> And a "Cadillac" bike (giggle), with an SA 8 speed hub and drum
> brakes!:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/39h4gh
>
> Woohoo! Back rest!
>
> The Wally World site even suggests that we can use their road bike
> series for commuting, and not just hanging in the garage! How
> unamerican is that? That Schwinn "Varsity" they're selling looks like
> it could actually be ridable, compared to the $79 turds they've been
> pushing for years.

Howz 'bout this:

http://tinyurl.com/yqo2kp

(or, for nervous nellies:)

http://preview.tinyurl.com/yqo2kp

Under 300 bucks, comes in three sizes (with different frame angles and
different length stems in the different sizes!!!!), aluminum rims,
stem and seat post, 700x25 tires. Weight is speced at 26lbs.

Not as good a value as can be had from some online bicycle sources,
but really not bad for $298, even if ya spend ~$50 to have it put
together properly.

(Not too sure what "comfort suspension fork" means in this case.....a
suspension fork on a drop bar bikes seems a bit odd. Can't tell from
the pics)
>
> Not the place I'd get a bike, but if you live in Fife Alabama or
> Podunk Arkansas and your community consists of a fry joint and a Wally
> World, your choices are getting better.

[landotter]

On May 21, 9:01 pm, Ozark Bicycle
> wrote:
> On May 21, 2:59 pm, landotter > wrote:
>
>
>
> > I sometimes waste a few minutes on the Target or Wally World websites
> > looking at bikes, as it's a mainstream place to look at trends.
> > Today's browse saw some pretty fun and funky beach cruisers, which are
> > a good buy at such a place if you want a real a beater for campus or
> > something similar.
>
> > Saw a couple pretty practical looking bike shaped objects, one was a
> > pretty normal trekking bike:
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/2n5sgo
>
> > And a "Cadillac" bike (giggle), with an SA 8 speed hub and drum
> > brakes!:
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/39h4gh
>
> > Woohoo! Back rest!
>
> > The Wally World site even suggests that we can use their road bike
> > series for commuting, and not just hanging in the garage! How
> > unamerican is that? That Schwinn "Varsity" they're selling looks like
> > it could actually be ridable, compared to the $79 turds they've been
> > pushing for years.
>
> Howz 'bout this:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yqo2kp
>
> (or, for nervous nellies:)
>
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/yqo2kp
>
> Under 300 bucks, comes in three sizes (with different frame angles and
> different length stems in the different sizes!!!!), aluminum rims,
> stem and seat post, 700x25 tires. Weight is speced at 26lbs.
>
> Not as good a value as can be had from some online bicycle sources,
> but really not bad for $298, even if ya spend ~$50 to have it put
> together properly.

I've helped neighbors get such reasonable quality bikes back on the
road for hucking around the neighborhood. Once you mitigate some
issues such as brake blocks and bearings, they're quite good utility
vehicles. I did up my neighbor's similarly specced mtb this winter
with a budget of a hundred bucks. I turned it into a "hybrid" with
slicks, fenders and a stern to stem overhaul. TBH, riding it, if you
didn't look down, you'd not know that it was a pretty cheap bike.
Yeah, I had to align the rear mech hanger with a big wrench and some
other such crudities, but when done, it shifted flawlessly, stopped on
a dime with great modulation and had a rather sophisticated new ride
due to decent tires. Again, if you didn't look down, it felt like it
could have cost five bills, a grand, or whatever. The crux was that
there was enough quality there in the first place to make a little
buffing worth while.

I don't endorse Wally World as a bike source if you can avoid it, but
it's cool that America's most hated retailer has reasonable options
when you have [cue thunder]NO OTHER CHOICE[/thunder].

Hey, if such a ludicrously named bike get's our futureTDF champ riding
somewhere in the bumps of Iowa, I'm game.

[landotter]

On May 21, 8:58 pm, Ron Hardin > wrote:

> I understand it's popular to talk the mart bikes down, but they
> really do work.

That's sort of what this post is slyly about. I remember being a kiddo
in the late 70s to the 80s and department store bike were just odious
crap. I remember finally making enough money in '87 at my job in a
Thai restaurant while I was in high school so that I could buy a
decent ride--a Shogun Prairie Breaker!! Which I traded within the year
for a Peugeot, and then I bought that Shimano 600 dérailleur from
under the glass at the bike shop. Later, after coming back from
working in Europe, I got my Trek 1200 with the glued aluminum frame
then a couple years of darkness, then resumed the habit...


point is that decent cheap price point bikes cant get folks into the
sport.

[Zoot Katz]

On 21 May 2007 12:59:08 -0700, landotter > wrote:

>Saw a couple pretty practical looking bike shaped objects, one was a
>pretty normal trekking bike:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/2n5sgo
>
>And a "Cadillac" bike (giggle), with an SA 8 speed hub and drum
>brakes!:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/39h4gh

In some areas it wouldn't pay to spend over $150 on a commuter bike
if you've no secure parking at your work place.

I'd take the wheels off the Cadillac and put them on the other bike
and maybe have a half decent all weather commuter once I got rid of
that phoney fork.

As it is, it represents a departure from the standard offering of
bikes imitating sporting machines or casual beach cruisers. I think
it's fair to say that "city bikes" have finally arrived on mainstream
America's radar.
--
zk

[[email protected]]

On May 22, 10:01 am, Ozark Bicycle
> wrote:
> On May 21, 2:59 pm, landotter > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I sometimes waste a few minutes on the Target or Wally World websites
> > looking at bikes, as it's a mainstream place to look at trends.
> > Today's browse saw some pretty fun and funky beach cruisers, which are
> > a good buy at such a place if you want a real a beater for campus or
> > something similar.
>
> > Saw a couple pretty practical looking bike shaped objects, one was a
> > pretty normal trekking bike:
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/2n5sgo
>
> > And a "Cadillac" bike (giggle), with an SA 8 speed hub and drum
> > brakes!:
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/39h4gh
>
> > Woohoo! Back rest!
>
> > The Wally World site even suggests that we can use their road bike
> > series for commuting, and not just hanging in the garage! How
> > unamerican is that? That Schwinn "Varsity" they're selling looks like
> > it could actually be ridable, compared to the $79 turds they've been
> > pushing for years.
>
> Howz 'bout this:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yqo2kp
>
> (or, for nervous nellies:)
>
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/yqo2kp
>
> Under 300 bucks, comes in three sizes (with different frame angles and
> different length stems in the different sizes!!!!), aluminum rims,
> stem and seat post, 700x25 tires. Weight is speced at 26lbs.
>
> Not as good a value as can be had from some online bicycle sources,
> but really not bad for $298, even if ya spend ~$50 to have it put
> together properly.

So figure somewhere between 2400 and 2800rmb.

Now consider -
Last year's road bike was all Shimano Sora (drivetrain, brifters,
hubs) on a Giant aluminum frame with a Giant aluminum fork and ran me
3000rmb.
The next step down had a different wheelset with unnamed hubs and a
steel fork for 2000rmb.
The step below that was where it went to downtube shifters, SIS, leech
brakes, and joytech hubs for 1500rmb.

The only stuff here with Tourney on it are the actual touring bikes
which have full fenders, front and rear racks, mild suspension forks,
butterfly bars, dynamo hubs, big wide 700C tires and big sproingy
saddles.

-M

[AmericanFlyer64]

>> point is that decent cheap price point bikes can't get folks into the sport. <<

Granted, it might not get them into the "sport" of riding, but if it
gets their fat arse on a bike, like they did mine, then there's some
merit to them. Not much, but a little. My first few bikes were
department store bikes, and from them came a 30+ year love of riding.
I'll never be talked about in the same breath as Lance or Floyd, but
that's not important. As I saw it so plainly stated on another forum
not too long ago..."If you are getting what you want to get out of
your bike, then you are doing okay."

[AmericanFlyer64]

>> point is that decent cheap price point bikes can't get folks into the sport. <<

Granted, it might not get them into the "sport" of riding, but if it
gets their fat arse on a bike, like they did mine, then there's some
merit to them. Not much, but a little. My first few bikes were
department store bikes, and from them came a 30+ year love of riding.
I'll never be talked about in the same breath as Lance or Floyd, but
that's not important. As I saw it so plainly stated on another forum
not too long ago..."If you are getting what you want to get out of
your bike, then you are doing okay."

[Claire Petersky]

"SMS" > wrote in message
...

> The problem is that these slightly better bicycles are usually not sold in
> the stores, they are usually on-line only, at least for Target, Wal-Mart,
> and Costco. The models sold in stores are the lowest end.

If that's the case, then I'd buy mail-order from REI instead.

--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

[bookieb]

On May 22, 3:59 am, landotter > wrote:
> On May 21, 8:58 pm, Ron Hardin > wrote:
>
> > I understand it's popular to talk the mart bikes down, but they
> > really do work.
>
> That's sort of what this post is slyly about.
<snip>
> point is that decent cheap price point bikes cant get folks into the
> sport.

I agree completely - to get someone out on a bike, first you need to
get them out on *any" bike - the refinements can come later.

However, sometimes I imagine people buy one of the $50-$150 wonders,
and are put off cause it's:
heavy (made of depleted uranium, crap f+r suspension)
noisy (crap f+r suspension, badly set up etc)
slow (cause it's heavy and has tires like a farm tractor)
doesn't work well (too complicated for purpose, badly set up)
is always broken (bit's that aren't made ofr uranium are made of
cheese).

....and give up the whole cycling thing as a bad idea.
It's kind of circular. I suppose the bikes you list are a bit closer
to what might suit occasional cyclists.
To my mind, they should:
use hub gears (Nexus 8 speed?),
use roller or cantilever/v- brakes (not disks! at this price,
mechanical disks are awful)
no suspension (ditto as per disk brakes, hard to do right on a budget)
include fenders and a rack
upright riding position

You might also include dynamo lights, including standlights.

There's nothing there (bar the cantilever brakes and standlights,
which are refinements rather than radical changes) that wasn't readily
available in (say) 1950. So much for progress :-)

regards,

bookieb

[SMS]

landotter wrote:

> I don't endorse Wally World as a bike source if you can avoid it, but
> it's cool that America's most hated retailer has reasonable options
> when you have [cue thunder]NO OTHER CHOICE[/thunder].

For smaller bikes for older kids (9-12 or so), the U.S. bicycle industry
and bike stores seem to have largely written it off. I guess they feel
that it costs about the same to manufacture a quality kid's bike as a
quality adult bike, but the price they can charge for the kid's bike is
significantly less. Why take up precious floor space with low margin items.

Of course it's a vicious cycle, as well as being short-sighted. If you
can get the kids onto quality bikes early, they'll want to ride more.
It's probably hopeless to get most parents to spend $400 on a bike for a
9 to 12 year old, but at $200 there could be a market.

You can buy a decent adult hybrid from Fuji or a bunch of other
manufacturers for $200. Yet it seems impossible to build a bike with the
same components other than a smaller frame and 24" wheels. Actually it
isn't impossible, as these bikes are widely available outside the U.S..
For g-d's sake, Miele is assembling their bikes in Canada, not China.
They don't even call them kid's bikes, the bikes are together on their
web site with adult bikes, they call them "juniors."

For my daughter, she took my wife's 15" Specialized hybrid when she was
12. It was a little too big for her, but lowering the quill stem to the
minimum, and by adjusting the adjustable stem for the shortest reach, it
was okay, and within a year it fit her.

It's just kind of sad to see Wal-Mart, Target, and Amazon as the sole
U.S. sources for smaller, non-mountain bicycles under $300.

[SMS]

bookieb wrote:

> However, sometimes I imagine people buy one of the $50-$150 wonders,
> and are put off cause it's:
> heavy (made of depleted uranium, crap f+r suspension)
> noisy (crap f+r suspension, badly set up etc)
> slow (cause it's heavy and has tires like a farm tractor)
> doesn't work well (too complicated for purpose, badly set up)
> is always broken (bit's that aren't made ofr uranium are made of
> cheese).

It's not your imagination. I see that all the time. Last Sunday, at my
son's cub scout meeting we did bike maintenance. Some of the adults also
rode their bikes to the meeting (of course some people transported their
bikes by vehicle to the meeting, even though it was well under a mile
from their homes).

The whole attitude of the adults is basically that they couldn't
possible go on a ride of more than a mile or so, and looking at their
bikes, I tended to agree. One was from Target, and rather new. One was
an old rusty Roadmaster. These are people that could easily afford more
than $79 for a bicycle. In my experience, the gearing on these bicycles
is functional, if adjusted properly (which the store doesn't do), but
the brakes are usually hopeless.

It's interesting to read some of the comments from buyers of bicycles
from Amazon, i.e. for the Denali 24" Road Bike,

"...we are grateful to Denali as a bike manufacturer for considering
this age transition as important for creating long term riders. This is
a great bike for 9-12 year old girls and was a great price on Amazon. I
wish our local bike shops would consider carrying this type of product."

LOL, Kent (the manufacturer of GMC & Cadillac bicycles, among others) is
being lauded for serving this market segment, or people that want to buy
bikes at bike shops, but have to go to Wal-Mart, Target, or Amazon
instead. Yet you'll often hear bike shop owners complaining about how
people don't understand why they are better off buying a bicycle from a
bike shop.

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
Zoot Katz > writes:

> As it is, it represents a departure from the standard offering of
> bikes imitating sporting machines or casual beach cruisers. I think
> it's fair to say that "city bikes" have finally arrived on mainstream
> America's radar.

Back in the early-mid '60s my ol' Raleigh 3-speed was a fair
city bike. At least, when it wasn't raining.

Simple, basic, functional, and lacking the Serious Business
looks of racing-type bikes or mountain bikes.

I note many of its contemporaries are still operational and
providing good service for their owners. The ones with
ladies' frames seem to predominate.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article om>,
landotter > wrote:

> On May 21, 8:58 pm, Ron Hardin > wrote:
>
> > I understand it's popular to talk the mart bikes down, but they
> > really do work.
>
> That's sort of what this post is slyly about. I remember being a kiddo
> in the late 70s to the 80s and department store bike were just odious
> crap. I remember finally making enough money in '87 at my job in a
> Thai restaurant while I was in high school so that I could buy a
> decent ride--a Shogun Prairie Breaker!! Which I traded within the year
> for a Peugeot, and then I bought that Shimano 600 dérailleur from
> under the glass at the bike shop. Later, after coming back from
> working in Europe, I got my Trek 1200 with the glued aluminum frame
> then a couple years of darkness, then resumed the habit...

> point is that decent cheap price point bikes cant get folks into the
> sport.

I think the big break came when entry-level department store bikes
started coming with aluminum rims and V-brakes. Before that, the
steel-rim/atrocious long-reach single-pivot caliper combo was dubious
and dangerous, and common on the really cheap models.

The last time I checked, such a bike was still available from some
department stores, but it seems to be becoming a rarity.

That road bike with the 7-speed Sora looks pretty sharp. One of my
club-mates bought a similar bike (actually, a much worse spec, with
off-brand drivetrain, DT shifters and a rather chunky frame) and used it
as a winter bike. It wasn't great (no QR on the rear wheel...) but it
worked, and he wasn't getting dropped on the ride because of his bike,
for sure.

About to race my CX bike in a crit,

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

[landotter]

On May 22, 10:48 am, bookieb > wrote:

> To my mind, they should:
> use hub gears (Nexus 8 speed?),
> use roller or cantilever/v- brakes (not disks! at this price,
> mechanical disks are awful)
> no suspension (ditto as per disk brakes, hard to do right on a budget)
> include fenders and a rack
> upright riding position

A basic bike I'd like to see at Wally World or Target type stores for
$200 would include:

S/A rear hub
fenders
Frame made from whatever's cheaper to source
rack
front and rear blinkies.

They make 'em for European discounters, so no reason not to sell them
here.

One could sub a 7speed Shimano derailleur system. Such widely spaced
systems are very forgiving of adjustment, and very simple to keep
running.

$400 in Sweden gets you a modern update on the Swedish standard:

http://www.teamsportia.se/produkter/cykel/?p=4593&search=1&pageNr=5

[Zoot Katz]

On Tue, 22 May 2007 10:52:00 -0700, (Tom
Keats) wrote:

>In article >,
> Zoot Katz > writes:
>
>> As it is, it represents a departure from the standard offering of
>> bikes imitating sporting machines or casual beach cruisers. I think
>> it's fair to say that "city bikes" have finally arrived on mainstream
>> America's radar.
>
>Back in the early-mid '60s my ol' Raleigh 3-speed was a fair
>city bike. At least, when it wasn't raining.
>
>Simple, basic, functional, and lacking the Serious Business
>looks of racing-type bikes or mountain bikes.
>
>I note many of its contemporaries are still operational and
>providing good service for their owners. The ones with
>ladies' frames seem to predominate.
>
Yep, my red Robin Hood was a department store bike that came stock
with very British mudguards. Not that the single pivot caliper brakes
and chrome rims provided much stopping power in the rain. That there
are still many SA equipped roadsters on the street is testament to
the design's longevity.

It seems though that during the bike-boom of the seventies everybody
wanted "racing" bikes with skinny tires, skinny saddles and drop
bars. Their reliable old three-speeds were relegated to the scrap
heap or forgotten in sheds. Since then it's been almost all downhill.

After the introduction of mountain biking in the eighties it got
progressively harder to find a "sensible" bike. Even little kids
bikes get the BMX or MTB treatment with phoney suspension. Using
oversized hi-ten tubing to mimic aluminium represents some sort of
low point in bike design.

Seeing modern materials and technology applied to the roadster
concept is refreshing and might help people realise that bikes are
practical transportation rather than doo-dads for their bumper racks.
--
zk

[SMS]

landotter wrote:

> They make 'em for European discounters, so no reason not to sell them
> here.

Reminds me of my relative telling me about her live lobster store in
NYC. She sold tremendous volumes, and I asked her if she dealt directly
with the lobster men. "Uh, no, I had to go through a "distributor." The
"distributor" didn't allow and other distribution channels other than
through him, for all of NYC. You didn't want to be a lobster man or
retailer that tried to eliminate the middleman.

I suspect that the actual bicycle manufacturers in Asia have been told
in no uncertain terms that they are not to try to bypass the traditional
bicycle companies that distribute in the U.S. and control what is made
available to U.S. consumers.

[SMS]

landotter wrote:

> They make 'em for European discounters, so no reason not to sell them
> here.
>
> One could sub a 7speed Shimano derailleur system. Such widely spaced
> systems are very forgiving of adjustment, and very simple to keep
> running.
>
> $400 in Sweden gets you a modern update on the Swedish standard:
>
> http://www.teamsportia.se/produkter/cykel/?p=4593&search=1&pageNr=5

I wonder what that Target trekking bike is really like. They have
virtually no information about it on their web site. It can't be
returned to the store if you don't like it, and the shipping is over $100.

[landotter]

On May 22, 12:52 pm, (Tom Keats) wrote:
> In article >,
> Zoot Katz > writes:
>
> > As it is, it represents a departure from the standard offering of
> > bikes imitating sporting machines or casual beach cruisers. I think
> > it's fair to say that "city bikes" have finally arrived on mainstream
> > America's radar.
>
> Back in the early-mid '60s my ol' Raleigh 3-speed was a fair
> city bike. At least, when it wasn't raining.
>
> Simple, basic, functional, and lacking the Serious Business
> looks of racing-type bikes or mountain bikes.
>
> I note many of its contemporaries are still operational and
> providing good service for their owners. The ones with
> ladies' frames seem to predominate.

I'm about to take my "lady" out for a spin into the city and back.
She's a more modern '76, but looks brand new from a few feet. With
alloy rims, good tires, and replacing those &%$@ self adjusting brake
levers, you end up with a great city ride. Mine still has the standard
70s Pletscher rack. All I need is a disco shirt. :D Hub shifts
flawlessly with a few drops of Castrol each month. North road bars and
block pedals are way under rated. Raleigh style handlebar grips are
way *over rated*, I gotta pick up some Ritchey grips for this thing
one day. Ouch.

[SMS]

landotter wrote:

> I'm about to take my "lady" out for a spin into the city and back.
> She's a more modern '76, but looks brand new from a few feet. With
> alloy rims, good tires, and replacing those &%$@ self adjusting brake
> levers, you end up with a great city ride. Mine still has the standard
> 70s Pletscher rack. All I need is a disco shirt. :D Hub shifts
> flawlessly with a few drops of Castrol each month. North road bars and
> block pedals are way under rated. Raleigh style handlebar grips are
> way *over rated*, I gotta pick up some Ritchey grips for this thing
> one day. Ouch.

I had a 1976 Columbia 3 speed "English Racer." Purchased from Woolco,
Woolworth's attempt at big-box discount department stores. I gave it to
my brother, and it's still in his garage. Whenever I go back to Florida
I see it there. Still working fine. Probably has had well over 50 miles
put on it in the last 30 years, most of them by me, on visits. The
mechanical odometer/speedometer I put on it still works.

Who bought the Columbia name? I still see Columbia bikes at Sports
Authority.

[dgk]

On 21 May 2007 12:59:08 -0700, landotter > wrote:

>I sometimes waste a few minutes on the Target or Wally World websites
>looking at bikes, as it's a mainstream place to look at trends.
>Today's browse saw some pretty fun and funky beach cruisers, which are
>a good buy at such a place if you want a real a beater for campus or
>something similar.
>
>Saw a couple pretty practical looking bike shaped objects, one was a
>pretty normal trekking bike:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/2n5sgo
>
>And a "Cadillac" bike (giggle), with an SA 8 speed hub and drum
>brakes!:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/39h4gh
>
>Woohoo! Back rest!
>
>The Wally World site even suggests that we can use their road bike
>series for commuting, and not just hanging in the garage! How
>unamerican is that? That Schwinn "Varsity" they're selling looks like
>it could actually be ridable, compared to the $79 turds they've been
>pushing for years.
>
>Not the place I'd get a bike, but if you live in Fife Alabama or
>Podunk Arkansas and your community consists of a fry joint and a Wally
>World, your choices are getting better.

I just went with a friend to Target to buy a bike three weeks ago. He
has no interest in taking up biking for commuting or touring, he just
wanted something that he could ride through the local parks and some
nice bike (multiuse) trails. So, we got a sort of hybrid/comfort bike
for around $160. He could have paid somewhere around $300 at the bike
shop I use, but frankly he doesn't need to.

The bike works fine. The tires are sensible, almost slicks, which is
pretty smart for urban riding as opposed to the knobbies. The bike is
not overly heavy, the gears and brakes work. Will the brakes work when
it's wet? Maybe, but we won't find out because he isn't going to be
using it when it's wet.

It's a good compromise. It isn't crap, and he doesn't need something
that will last for 20,000 miles because he won't be riding it that
far. He is, at least, on a bike some of the time now.

[Just A User]

dgk wrote:

> It's a good compromise. It isn't crap, and he doesn't need something
> that will last for 20,000 miles because he won't be riding it that
> far. He is, at least, on a bike some of the time now.

That's a start. Now if more people would do that it would be a better world.

Ken

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
Zoot Katz > writes:

> Seeing modern materials and technology applied to the roadster
> concept is refreshing and might help people realise that bikes are
> practical transportation rather than doo-dads for their bumper racks.

These new/oldfangled Breezers and Jorg & Olifs and Townies
are all very pretty. But they're so up-market.

The Raleigh Safari has been living in obscurity for
several years now, but I think it would make a plausible
and somewhat more affordable "city bike", despite any
prejudices as to what Raleigh /is/ these days.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Tom Keats]

In article . com>,
landotter > writes:
> On May 22, 12:52 pm, (Tom Keats) wrote:
>> In article >,
>> Zoot Katz > writes:
>>
>> > As it is, it represents a departure from the standard offering of
>> > bikes imitating sporting machines or casual beach cruisers. I think
>> > it's fair to say that "city bikes" have finally arrived on mainstream
>> > America's radar.
>>
>> Back in the early-mid '60s my ol' Raleigh 3-speed was a fair
>> city bike. At least, when it wasn't raining.
>>
>> Simple, basic, functional, and lacking the Serious Business
>> looks of racing-type bikes or mountain bikes.
>>
>> I note many of its contemporaries are still operational and
>> providing good service for their owners. The ones with
>> ladies' frames seem to predominate.
>
> I'm about to take my "lady" out for a spin into the city and back.
> She's a more modern '76, but looks brand new from a few feet. With
> alloy rims, good tires, and replacing those &%$@ self adjusting brake
> levers, you end up with a great city ride. Mine still has the standard
> 70s Pletscher rack. All I need is a disco shirt. :D Hub shifts
> flawlessly with a few drops of Castrol each month. North road bars and
> block pedals are way under rated. Raleigh style handlebar grips are
> way *over rated*, I gotta pick up some Ritchey grips for this thing
> one day. Ouch.

It seems so-called "city bikes" have been around
for decades; they've just been been overshadowed
in recent history by the clamour for fancier rides.
I guess the concept has long been with us, but
the demand had waned, and now is waxing again. I
suspect car advertising has much to do with it --
people have been conditioned to shop for "image",
and that effect has trickled down to other commodities.
Remember the Urban Assault Vehicle concept?

It's good to know many of the more venerable
"city bikes" are still out there, being bicycles.

I'm not sure exactly what a disco shirt is, but
it sounds highly flammable.

Raleigh grips are okay if your fingers match
the notches. Mine don't, either.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[DougC]

Ron Hardin wrote:
> I ride Huffys 8,000 miles a year, and they do fine. Generally I'll
> replace the BB 3 or 4 times (Huffy sells parts too), and the usual
> chainwheel, freewheel and chain swaps; and the bike lasts about 50k
> miles before enough parts need fixing _at the same time_ so that it's
> cheaper to buy a whole new bike than replace them one by one.
>
> I usually carry a pretty heavy load on them on the way home and the
> (MTB) wheels stay true the whole time. No wheel bearing problems
> whatsoever. The only bearing needing attention is the BB, from
> regular wear. Just pop out the races and put in new races and
> whatever goes in there (Ashtabula crank or cotterless spindle,
> depending on model).
>
> I understand it's popular to talk the mart bikes down, but they
> really do work.

You also need to keep in mind--that (at least in the US market) Wal-Mart
gets a level of quality that is considerably lower than what you'd
normally see elsewhere. Walmart wants to sell THE CHEAPEST bicycle for a
brand-name, no exceptions. Every now and then Wal-Mart has Schwinn
bikes, and Mongoose bikes, and a couple other brands that were formerly
"bike shop" brands--but whatever Wal-Mart sells is always cheapest you
will find with that brand-name on it, and guess what??? It's built
cheapest too.

The last time I took a close look at a Wal-Mart MTB (-admitedly a fw
years ago, and I forget the name brand) it didn't have dust covers on
the BB at all; you could LOOK in through a circular slot around the
cranks and you could actually SEE the ball bearings rolling around in
their races! I began to wonder if it was just an assembly error--but
many of the other bikes on the rack were the same way.
~

[landotter]

On May 23, 2:19 pm, (Tom Keats) wrote:

> It seems so-called "city bikes" have been around
> for decades; they've just been been overshadowed
> in recent history by the clamour for fancier rides.
> I guess the concept has long been with us, but
> the demand had waned, and now is waxing again. I
> suspect car advertising has much to do with it --
> people have been conditioned to shop for "image",
> and that effect has trickled down to other commodities.
> Remember the Urban Assault Vehicle concept?
>

It sort of happened in northern Europe as well, but amusingly a lot of
mtb shaped bikes were still equipped with Sachs hubs, mudguards,
racks, and bells. He he.

I don't even really like the "city bike" meme all that much. In Sweden
they call them "standard" bikes. Which makes much more sense. Just
like you used to have standard motorcycles as the norm, a style that's
been on the comeback for years as well.

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article >,
(Tom Keats) wrote:

> In article >,
> Zoot Katz > writes:
>
> > Seeing modern materials and technology applied to the roadster
> > concept is refreshing and might help people realise that bikes are
> > practical transportation rather than doo-dads for their bumper racks.
>
> These new/oldfangled Breezers and Jorg & Olifs and Townies
> are all very pretty. But they're so up-market.
>
> The Raleigh Safari has been living in obscurity for
> several years now, but I think it would make a plausible
> and somewhat more affordable "city bike", despite any
> prejudices as to what Raleigh /is/ these days.

TK, ZK, you both live in the 'hood, right? So why didn't you notice what
I did the last time I strolled down Commercial Drive?

North America, or at least Vancouver, has invented its own "standard"
out of the ashes of a zillion abandoned rigid MTBs. The neo-standard is
a 26" lugless steel MTB (all cro-moly, natch) with flat bars, slick
tires, fenders, and a rack or two. 18 or 21 speeds mostly. V-brakes are
the classy high-end upgrade over cantis.

These suckers go everywhere, do everything, and can be found all over
town. It's probably the easiest frame to scrounge, and the most
versatile in practice.

Moreover, I'd put such a beast in either a load-carrying contest or an
unloaded race against any J&O. The "standard" might be the equal to the
neo-standard in load carriage, but the neo probably weighs 10 pounds
less.

I have to swear by this style of bike, because I just pulled a very good
rolling example out of the trash a few weeks ago, and thrust it into a
friend's hands. The bike needed only slick tires and a rear der cable
adjuster. 21-speed STX, no less!

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article >,
SMS > wrote:

> landotter wrote:
>
> > They make 'em for European discounters, so no reason not to sell them
> > here.
>
> Reminds me of my relative telling me about her live lobster store in
> NYC. She sold tremendous volumes, and I asked her if she dealt directly
> with the lobster men. "Uh, no, I had to go through a "distributor." The
> "distributor" didn't allow and other distribution channels other than
> through him, for all of NYC. You didn't want to be a lobster man or
> retailer that tried to eliminate the middleman.
>
> I suspect that the actual bicycle manufacturers in Asia have been told
> in no uncertain terms that they are not to try to bypass the traditional
> bicycle companies that distribute in the U.S. and control what is made
> available to U.S. consumers.

They do sell 'em here.

http://www.abikestore.com/city-bikes.htm

$400 shipped for a 3-speed bike with fenders and a rack:

http://www.abikestore.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=a
bs&Product_Code=cb_birtc3

Lights not included, but I bet that thing is lighter than its steel
equivalent.

I suspect that actual bicycle manufacturers in Asia would be glad to
sell 3-speed bicycles, if they could figure out a way to convince their
customers that 3 in the hub is better than 21 on the cogs.

It's not a trivial sell,

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

[[email protected]]

On May 24, 4:18 am, Ryan Cousineau > wrote:
> North America, or at least Vancouver, has invented its own "standard"
> out of the ashes of a zillion abandoned rigid MTBs. The neo-standard is
> a 26" lugless steel MTB (all cro-moly, natch) with flat bars, slick
> tires, fenders, and a rack or two. 18 or 21 speeds mostly. V-brakes are
> the classy high-end upgrade over cantis.
>
> These suckers go everywhere, do everything, and can be found all over
> town. It's probably the easiest frame to scrounge, and the most
> versatile in practice.
>
> Moreover, I'd put such a beast in either a load-carrying contest or an
> unloaded race against any J&O. The "standard" might be the equal to the
> neo-standard in load carriage, but the neo probably weighs 10 pounds
> less.
>
> I have to swear by this style of bike, because I just pulled a very good
> rolling example out of the trash a few weeks ago, and thrust it into a
> friend's hands. The bike needed only slick tires and a rear der cable
> adjuster. 21-speed STX, no less!

I see these things all over the place in my city. They seem to do
well, and people definitely get around on them just fine. They're
never the faster of the bikes you see around, but they're certainly
functional. The few people riding these I've really had a chance to
stop & talk with love them. They're usually WW tires & cables, WD-40
for lube when something seizes (squeaking is no big thing) and they're
all running slime tubes. I wouldn't want to do my commute on one, but
for around the neighborhood & the city they're fine reliable
vehicles. I enjoy seeing them out, and enjoy getting my tools & lubes
onto one even more (though that's rare with the adults).

[SMS]

Ryan Cousineau wrote:

> I have to swear by this style of bike, because I just pulled a very good
> rolling example out of the trash a few weeks ago, and thrust it into a
> friend's hands. The bike needed only slick tires and a rear der cable
> adjuster. 21-speed STX, no less!

Marin makes such a bike new, the Muirwoods. The sales person at REI was
saying that this was their bombproof bike, good for kids that abuse
bikes but that don't want a mountain bike. Cro-moly frame, flat bars, no
suspension. Of course it's nearly $400, a lot more than you can rebuild
one out of the trash for.

I had one of these types of bikes once, a Fuji Sundance. Terrific,
except for the U brakes.

[landotter]

Ryan Cousineau wrote:

> They do sell 'em here.
>
> http://www.abikestore.com/city-bikes.htm
>
> $400 shipped for a 3-speed bike with fenders and a rack:
>
> http://www.abikestore.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=a
> bs&Product_Code=cb_birtc3
>
> Lights not included, but I bet that thing is lighter than its steel
> equivalent.

I'm having a hard time believing that it's actually made in Germany
for that price! Nice standard bike at the same price you see basic
ones in Europe. FWIW, it doesn't come with rack or that basket either,
that's a $40 bump.

>
> I suspect that actual bicycle manufacturers in Asia would be glad to
> sell 3-speed bicycles, if they could figure out a way to convince their
> customers that 3 in the hub is better than 21 on the cogs.
>
> It's not a trivial sell,

It's not that hard either. I did yet another round of errands last
night on Irene, my 27" Raleigh Sprite, as I didn't feel like putting
on real shoes to ride my fixed gear. The freedom of being able to ride
in flip flops on a bike that's got the drivetrain with the reliability
of an appliance is its own selling point. Yes, it's 35#, but doesn't
feel it, as it's got nice supple tires, instead of the gumwall junk
that used to come on such bikes.

It's not a far stretch from American "Cruisers" but a significant one.
Classic yank bikes since the 20s have thrown ergonomics out the window
as it was more important to imitate motorbikes, instead of building
proper bicycles. But all you need to do is alter the tires, frame
angles by a degree, and swap out the bars and you evolve to a "normal"
bike.

[Zoot Katz]

On Thu, 24 May 2007 08:18:23 GMT, Ryan Cousineau >
wrote, in part:

>> > Seeing modern materials and technology applied to the roadster
>> > concept is refreshing and might help people realise that bikes are
>> > practical transportation rather than doo-dads for their bumper racks.
>>
>> These new/oldfangled Breezers and Jorg & Olifs and Townies
>> are all very pretty. But they're so up-market.
>>
>> The Raleigh Safari has been living in obscurity for
>> several years now, but I think it would make a plausible
>> and somewhat more affordable "city bike", despite any
>> prejudices as to what Raleigh /is/ these days.
>
>TK, ZK, you both live in the 'hood, right? So why didn't you notice what
>I did the last time I strolled down Commercial Drive?
>
>North America, or at least Vancouver, has invented its own "standard"
>out of the ashes of a zillion abandoned rigid MTBs. The neo-standard is
>a 26" lugless steel MTB (all cro-moly, natch) with flat bars, slick
>tires, fenders, and a rack or two. 18 or 21 speeds mostly. V-brakes are
>the classy high-end upgrade over cantis.
>
>These suckers go everywhere, do everything, and can be found all over
>town. It's probably the easiest frame to scrounge, and the most
>versatile in practice.
\
Well, yeah. The venerable rigid steel MTBs make excellent urban
all-rounders. I've built up three of 'em counting the Xtracycle.

The point is that until very recently there was nothing off-the-shelf
to fill the bill for people seeking a "sensible" bike. Other than
some fat tire cruisers it was near impossible to even find a bike
that comes stock with fenders.

To complete the conversion process takes time and some skills. Things
that "consumers" aren't expected to invest. They're seeking instant
gratification in a ready to roll item.

Depending on the condition and quality of the original bike, and ones
supply of replacement parts, it can be a rather costly undertaking.
(though a fraction of the cost of a new J&O or Pashley) It requires
more thought compared to just going into Canadian Tire and putting a
spanking new sporty Chinese import on the charge card.

I'm a west-sider but hang in the hood where, in fact, I see plenty of
resurrected single speed bikes with coaster brakes, chain guards and
kickstands. There's also a greater number of baskets in evidence
there than elsewhere around the city. Wish I could say the same thing
about headlights.
--
zk

[landotter]

SMS wrote:
> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
> > I have to swear by this style of bike, because I just pulled a very good
> > rolling example out of the trash a few weeks ago, and thrust it into a
> > friend's hands. The bike needed only slick tires and a rear der cable
> > adjuster. 21-speed STX, no less!
>
> Marin makes such a bike new, the Muirwoods. The sales person at REI was
> saying that this was their bombproof bike, good for kids that abuse
> bikes but that don't want a mountain bike.

I have to testify to the quality of Marin city bikes. My old San
Anselmo (the Nexus one) was the most reliable machine I've ever owned.
Strong as hell. You could put 40# in a single Wald fold out pannier,
throw it down a hill with no shimmy.

I almost bought their elegant Belvedere last year, which was on sale
for a reasonable $450:
http://www.marinbikes.com/bicycles_2007/html/bikes/bike_specs/specs_belvedere.html

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
Zoot Katz > writes:

> The point is that until very recently there was nothing off-the-shelf
> to fill the bill for people seeking a "sensible" bike. Other than
> some fat tire cruisers it was near impossible to even find a bike
> that comes stock with fenders.

Hub gears and chainguards/chaincases add to that sensibility.
Skirt/coat guards -- sure, why not? And stock, made-to-match
accessories that make the bicycle integrally complete have
better aesthetic appeal than a bunch of bristling afterthought
add-ons.

> I'm a west-sider but hang in the hood where, in fact, I see plenty of
> resurrected single speed bikes with coaster brakes, chain guards and
> kickstands. There's also a greater number of baskets in evidence
> there than elsewhere around the city. Wish I could say the same thing
> about headlights.

I like that these turnkey, "standard" bicycles come with lights.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[SMS]

Zoot Katz wrote:

> To complete the conversion process takes time and some skills. Things
> that "consumers" aren't expected to invest. They're seeking instant
> gratification in a ready to roll item.

Which is the way it should be. Last night I was waiting for my daughter
to finish rock climbing, and I stopped in at Sports Basement just to
look around. There was a couple buying some higher-end road bikes. After
the test ride, the woman asked the sales person to raise the bars for
her. Uh-oh, this was an older woman, about 60, who hadn't yet been
introduced to the wonderful world of threadless headsets. The
salesperson started in with the changes she could make in order to raise
the bars to the proper level, including adjustable stems, stem risers,
etc., as the steer tube had been cut way too short at the factory. The
woman was as baffled as she was when he was explaining the differences
between 105 and Ultegra. She just wanted to pay the money and buy a
bike, not make a frickin' career out of bicycle modifications. I was
tempted to hand this couple my 20% off coupon that I got on Bike to Work
Day, and tell them "here, maybe the $500 you'll save with this coupon
will pay for the modifications you need at a real bike shop."

[SMS]

landotter wrote:
> SMS wrote:

>> Marin makes such a bike new, the Muirwoods. The sales person at REI was
>> saying that this was their bombproof bike, good for kids that abuse
>> bikes but that don't want a mountain bike.
>
> I have to testify to the quality of Marin city bikes. My old San
> Anselmo (the Nexus one) was the most reliable machine I've ever owned.
> Strong as hell. You could put 40# in a single Wald fold out pannier,
> throw it down a hill with no shimmy.
>
> I almost bought their elegant Belvedere last year, which was on sale
> for a reasonable $450:
> http://www.marinbikes.com/bicycles_2007/html/bikes/bike_specs/specs_belvedere.html

REI often has 15% off on all bicycles, including Marin. Plus with the
REI Visa card you get another 5% back, even on sale items (but no
dividend). That's the time to buy a Marin bicycle.

I have a Marin Bear Valley mountain bike I bought two years ago. It was
one of the few cro-moly mountain bikes on the market. They've since
decontented it, and it's now aluminum, and a "women's fit" model.

Speaking of "women's fit," some of the bikes I saw at Target last night
that would be most appropriate for kids 10-14 or so, were labeled on the
bike with 'women's design' or some such verbiage. So much for buying one
of those for a boy.

[landotter]

On May 24, 2:54 pm, SMS > wrote:

> Speaking of "women's fit," some of the bikes I saw at Target last night
> that would be most appropriate for kids 10-14 or so, were labeled on the
> bike with 'women's design' or some such verbiage. So much for buying one
> of those for a boy.

Use a hair dryer to peel off the pink unicorn decals and you're good
to go.

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
Ryan Cousineau > writes:

> TK, ZK, you both live in the 'hood, right? So why didn't you notice what
> I did the last time I strolled down Commercial Drive?

Actually I'm closer to the Mid-Main BikeCultural enclave,
which is somewhat distinct from those of Commercial Drive,
Kitsilano, Marpole, etc. I think it's largely because
of the proximity of Our Community Bikes and Langara College.
Nevertheless, you proceed to describe my own main ride almost
to a tee.

> North America, or at least Vancouver, has invented its own "standard"
> out of the ashes of a zillion abandoned rigid MTBs. The neo-standard is
> a 26" lugless steel MTB (all cro-moly, natch) with flat bars, slick
> tires, fenders, and a rack or two. 18 or 21 speeds mostly. V-brakes are
> the classy high-end upgrade over cantis.

Heh. You said "fenders" and V-brakes" in the same paragraph.

> These suckers go everywhere, do everything, and can be found all over
> town. It's probably the easiest frame to scrounge, and the most
> versatile in practice.

> Moreover, I'd put such a beast in either a load-carrying contest or an
> unloaded race against any J&O. The "standard" might be the equal to the
> neo-standard in load carriage, but the neo probably weighs 10 pounds
> less.

I dunno. I figure Ol' Pig Iron weighs in the order of at
least 30 lbs, encumbered as it is with rack & milk crate,
fenders, kickstand, generator light system, supplemental
battery lights, U-lock, long steel seatpost, etc. Add another
10 lbs when I toss my bag-o'-tricks (tools, pump, raingear,
spare tubes) into the milk crate. Endeared as I am to it,
it's about as pretty as a drunk warthog.

> I have to swear by this style of bike, because I just pulled a very good
> rolling example out of the trash a few weeks ago, and thrust it into a
> friend's hands. The bike needed only slick tires and a rear der cable
> adjuster. 21-speed STX, no less!

Good score. Goes to show how hard it is to go
totally bikeless in this city. I'm often pleasantly
amazed by how exactly the parts I need show up in
what someone else throws away. I used to bemoan the
dearth of 27" alloy rims. Now I've got a lifetime
supply of servicable, salvaged 27" complete wheels --
front & rear, and some beautiful Suzue one-piece hubs.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Steve Gravrock]

On 2007-05-24, Ryan Cousineau > wrote:

> North America, or at least Vancouver, has invented its own "standard"
> out of the ashes of a zillion abandoned rigid MTBs. The neo-standard is
> a 26" lugless steel MTB (all cro-moly, natch) with flat bars, slick
> tires, fenders, and a rack or two. 18 or 21 speeds mostly. V-brakes are
> the classy high-end upgrade over cantis.
>
> These suckers go everywhere, do everything, and can be found all over
> town. It's probably the easiest frame to scrounge, and the most
> versatile in practice.

Those used to be the most common commuter setup in my neck of the woods.
Hybrids, hardtail mountain bikes, and to a lesser extent road bikes
have become more common as the local supply of rigid bikes has dwindled.
I still have a 10 year old Trek 830 that I use as a winter commuter.
My other bikes are both more ideally suited to their intended purposes
than the Trek, but it's the most versatile of the lot and the one that
I'd most likely keep if I had to pare down to one bike.

I expect I'll continue riding it for some purpose or another until the
frame rusts through or the supply of 1-1/8" threaded headsets dries up.

[Zoot Katz]

On Thu, 24 May 2007 17:27:35 -0700,
(Tom Keats) wrote, of Vancouver, B.C.:

>
>> TK, ZK, you both live in the 'hood, right? So why didn't you notice what
>> I did the last time I strolled down Commercial Drive?
>
>Actually I'm closer to the Mid-Main BikeCultural enclave,

The Mid-Main Bike Cultural enclave _is_ the 'hood, IMO.

Kitsalano and the Drive are scenes that only appear to be different
from Robson Strasse.

Actually, the Mid-Main area is getting too pricey for the hot new
design shops. They're moving back to Gastown

Marpole is still flying under the radar but that's only because
there's nothing happening here. That's due to change soon.
--
zk

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article . com>,
landotter > wrote:

> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
> > They do sell 'em here.
> >
> > http://www.abikestore.com/city-bikes.htm
> >
> > $400 shipped for a 3-speed bike with fenders and a rack:
> >
> > http://www.abikestore.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=a
> > bs&Product_Code=cb_birtc3
> >
> > Lights not included, but I bet that thing is lighter than its steel
> > equivalent.

> I'm having a hard time believing that it's actually made in Germany
> for that price! Nice standard bike at the same price you see basic
> ones in Europe. FWIW, it doesn't come with rack or that basket either,
> that's a $40 bump.

"The Biria Top 3 includes a rack and fenders. It does not include the
lights. The Superlight 3 includes the lights"

"This is a very well crafted German designed bicycle that will last for
years."

"German designed" is bike code for "Asian manufactured." I have no
problem with that part.

> > I suspect that actual bicycle manufacturers in Asia would be glad to
> > sell 3-speed bicycles, if they could figure out a way to convince their
> > customers that 3 in the hub is better than 21 on the cogs.
> >
> > It's not a trivial sell,
>
> It's not that hard either. I did yet another round of errands last
> night on Irene, my 27" Raleigh Sprite, as I didn't feel like putting
> on real shoes to ride my fixed gear. The freedom of being able to ride
> in flip flops on a bike that's got the drivetrain with the reliability
> of an appliance is its own selling point. Yes, it's 35#, but doesn't
> feel it, as it's got nice supple tires, instead of the gumwall junk
> that used to come on such bikes.

Locally, the issue would be that we have hills. Even I doubt I'd really
want a 3-speed as my primary bike, and I sometimes ride singlespeed.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

[landotter]

On May 21, 2:59 pm, landotter > wrote:
> I sometimes waste a few minutes on the Target or Wally World websites
> looking at bikes, as it's a mainstream place to look at trends.

Visited an actual store today as I was in the dreaded mall area away
from my secure urban lair.

I saw:
A bunch of 5 speed Pacific junk that you could probably make work, but
it's cringeworthy. The crappest cantis I've ever seen.

$200. A sus fork hybrid with 700c wheels with a goofy paired spoke
pattern. The rim was pretty deep, so likely heavy and able to stand
the goofy lacing. Threadless front with rapidfire shifting tourney and
well adjusted LP brakes. The hubs looked good enough, but would likely
want for nicer balls. I'm not a fan of doingers, but this one was
firm and the wheels looked sturdy enough. With an hour in the stand,
it would make a perfectly good commuter. 7spd tourney should prove to
be very reliable.

$150. A "Schwinn" (ha ha) cruiser with a cheap shimano 7spd mech and
Sram gripshift. LP brakes. This would be a perfect neighborhood/
coffeeshop type bike.

$200. Road bike no.1 First of all, it had miserable lowest of the low
end single pivot brakes. Ugh. Pulling the levers did not cause pad
contact. This bike stopped with faith! Same generic cheap Shimano mech
as the cruiser. Pass.

$200. "Schwinn" road bike. Didn't get the model name as I did this all
in 90 seconds. Nice dual pivot brakes. Likely the lowest end Tektro,
like the ones Nashbar rebadges. Nothing wrong with them. Brakes set up
fine. 7spd rear with groovy rocking stem paddle shifters! Sort of like
1st generation Nexus 7sp shifters but vertical. Nice idea, and likely
cheap as chips to manufacture. Rear mech was the same crap Shimano as
the last two bikes, but you can likely make it work. An upgrade to a
Sora mech front and rear would make this a perfectly decent starter
road bike for that small town kid that just watched "Breaking Away" on
via Netflix and wants to kick some townie's ass.

Like everybody has mentioned, I'd not ride any of these without a
thorough stem to stern reassembly, and I wish that Target and friends
would post as such: "Please have a professional adjust this bike to
proper running condition if you are not experienced to do it
yourself." That or not kid people and have display bikes, but sell
them still in the box to give folks a clue.

It was my b'day, and the reason I ran into Target in the first place
is that I want a nice bell for my Sprite for this weekend's retro and
cruiser ride. The bike shop just has lame "ping" bells. No, I wanted
one that sounds like a bike bell, like in the movies! No time to mail
order. So I crossed my fingers when entering and found the aisle...low
and behold, a red "brrrng brrring" bell that matches my Sprite's
finish to a tee. $4. They also had the classic "I heart my bike" ones.
All with great tone, as I tested them to the consternation of the
other shoppers. I also tested a kid's horn, which made a woman who I
didn't know exclaim the opening of a letter to a deity.

[landotter]

On May 24, 11:13 pm, Ryan Cousineau > wrote:
> In article . com>,
>
>
>
> landotter > wrote:
> > Ryan Cousineau wrote:

snip

>
> > > I suspect that actual bicycle manufacturers in Asia would be glad to
> > > sell 3-speed bicycles, if they could figure out a way to convince their
> > > customers that 3 in the hub is better than 21 on the cogs.
>
> > > It's not a trivial sell,
>
> > It's not that hard either. I did yet another round of errands last
> > night on Irene, my 27" Raleigh Sprite, as I didn't feel like putting
> > on real shoes to ride my fixed gear. The freedom of being able to ride
> > in flip flops on a bike that's got the drivetrain with the reliability
> > of an appliance is its own selling point. Yes, it's 35#, but doesn't
> > feel it, as it's got nice supple tires, instead of the gumwall junk
> > that used to come on such bikes.
>
> Locally, the issue would be that we have hills. Even I doubt I'd really
> want a 3-speed as my primary bike, and I sometimes ride singlespeed.

Here on the liberal side of the Cumberland river in Nashville we have
hills, rolling ones. The Sprite does just great on them and the low
gear on the SA hub is more than enough to take care of business, I
usually climb the mild hills in middle gear. It's a marvelous ride,
that tall girlie bike of mine, just don't ask it to do big hills or
long trips. It does five mile runs while wearing flip flops just fine.

[Ozark Bicycle]

On May 24, 11:23 pm, landotter > wrote:

<snipped>

- on cheap, dept, store bikes -

> Rear mech was the same crap Shimano as
> the last two bikes, but you can likely make it work. An upgrade to a
> Sora mech front and rear would make this a perfectly decent starter
> road bike

Those cheap Shimano (was it Tourney?) RDs might be ugly and heavy, but
they shift just fine. "Upgrading" is mostly just eye appeal, IME.

[landotter]

On May 25, 6:09 am, Ozark Bicycle
> wrote:
> On May 24, 11:23 pm, landotter > wrote:
>
> <snipped>
>
> - on cheap, dept, store bikes -
>
> > Rear mech was the same crap Shimano as
> > the last two bikes, but you can likely make it work. An upgrade to a
> > Sora mech front and rear would make this a perfectly decent starter
> > road bike
>
> Those cheap Shimano (was it Tourney?) RDs might be ugly and heavy, but
> they shift just fine. "Upgrading" is mostly just eye appeal, IME.

Oh yeah, for a utility bike, Tourney shifts just fine. Arguably better
than disco era Dura Ace. However, that bike didn't have the Tourney,
just the first hybrid had such elite kit. The bikes I sneered a bit at
had a couple steps below that, which was stamp-steel and looked to be
lower on the engineering evolution level, with not even the basic
shape as most modern mechs, but with more of an ancient vertical
design instead of the defacto slant parallelogram design.

[Ozark Bicycle]

On May 25, 10:50 am, landotter > wrote:
> On May 25, 6:09 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > wrote:
> > On May 24, 11:23 pm, landotter > wrote:
>
> > <snipped>
>
> > - on cheap, dept, store bikes -
>
> > > Rear mech was the same crap Shimano as
> > > the last two bikes, but you can likely make it work. An upgrade to a
> > > Sora mech front and rear would make this a perfectly decent starter
> > > road bike
>
> > Those cheap Shimano (was it Tourney?) RDs might be ugly and heavy, but
> > they shift just fine. "Upgrading" is mostly just eye appeal, IME.
>
> Oh yeah, for a utility bike, Tourney shifts just fine. Arguably better
> than disco era Dura Ace. However, that bike didn't have the Tourney,
> just the first hybrid had such elite kit. The bikes I sneered a bit at
> had a couple steps below that, which was stamp-steel and looked to be
> lower on the engineering evolution level, with not even the basic
> shape as most modern mechs, but with more of an ancient vertical
> design instead of the defacto slant parallelogram design.

Was it the one with a *really* long cage, says " Shimano SIS Mega
Range" on the parallelogram? If so, despite the lack of a slant
parallelogram or a "centeron" jockey pulley, it shifts just fine, IME
(which includes having that very thing on my town/errand/utility bike
with a 7sp FW). BTW, I think it is a member of the Tourney family,
just very low on the ladder.

[landotter]

On May 25, 1:04 pm, Ozark Bicycle
> wrote:
> On May 25, 10:50 am, I wrote:
>>. The bikes I sneered a bit at
> > had a couple steps below that, which was stamp-steel and looked to be
> > lower on the engineering evolution level, with not even the basic
> > shape as most modern mechs, but with more of an ancient vertical
> > design instead of the defacto slant parallelogram design.
>
> Was it the one with a *really* long cage, says " Shimano SIS Mega
> Range" on the parallelogram? If so, despite the lack of a slant
> parallelogram or a "centeron" jockey pulley, it shifts just fine, IME
> (which includes having that very thing on my town/errand/utility bike
> with a 7sp FW). BTW, I think it is a member of the Tourney family,
> just very low on the ladder.

$8.99 worth of shifty goodness!:

http://www.bikepartsusa.com/product_info.asp?f_c=Derailleur&f_c2=Rear+Derailleur&cp=2&p=01%2D102371

[Ozark Bicycle]

On May 25, 1:46 pm, landotter > wrote:
> On May 25, 1:04 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > wrote:
> > On May 25, 10:50 am, I wrote:
> >>. The bikes I sneered a bit at
> > > had a couple steps below that, which was stamp-steel and looked to be
> > > lower on the engineering evolution level, with not even the basic
> > > shape as most modern mechs, but with more of an ancient vertical
> > > design instead of the defacto slant parallelogram design.
>
> > Was it the one with a *really* long cage, says " Shimano SIS Mega
> > Range" on the parallelogram? If so, despite the lack of a slant
> > parallelogram or a "centeron" jockey pulley, it shifts just fine, IME
> > (which includes having that very thing on my town/errand/utility bike
> > with a 7sp FW). BTW, I think it is a member of the Tourney family,
> > just very low on the ladder.
>
> $8.99 worth of shifty goodness!:
>
> http://www.bikepartsusa.com/product_info.asp?f_c=Derailleur&f_c2=Rear...

Actually, I think it's a Tourney GX-30 GS bikepartsusa #01-102476 @
$10.15

What shifts better than a $10 Shimano RD?

Nothing....... :-)

[landotter]

On May 25, 2:50 pm, Ozark Bicycle
> wrote:
> On May 25, 1:46 pm, landotter > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On May 25, 1:04 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > > wrote:
> > > On May 25, 10:50 am, I wrote:
> > >>. The bikes I sneered a bit at
> > > > had a couple steps below that, which was stamp-steel and looked to be
> > > > lower on the engineering evolution level, with not even the basic
> > > > shape as most modern mechs, but with more of an ancient vertical
> > > > design instead of the defacto slant parallelogram design.
>
> > > Was it the one with a *really* long cage, says " Shimano SIS Mega
> > > Range" on the parallelogram? If so, despite the lack of a slant
> > > parallelogram or a "centeron" jockey pulley, it shifts just fine, IME
> > > (which includes having that very thing on my town/errand/utility bike
> > > with a 7sp FW). BTW, I think it is a member of the Tourney family,
> > > just very low on the ladder.
>
> > $8.99 worth of shifty goodness!:
>
> >http://www.bikepartsusa.com/product_info.asp?f_c=Derailleur&f_c2=Rear...
>
> Actually, I think it's a Tourney GX-30 GS bikepartsusa #01-102476 @
> $10.15
>
While your faith in the Mystery of Derailleurs is admirable, that was
the derailleur on the "hybrid". All the others got the pretty grim
looking $8.99 model.

[Ozark Bicycle]

On May 25, 3:16 pm, landotter > wrote:
> On May 25, 2:50 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > On May 25, 1:46 pm, landotter > wrote:
>
> > > On May 25, 1:04 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > On May 25, 10:50 am, I wrote:
> > > >>. The bikes I sneered a bit at
> > > > > had a couple steps below that, which was stamp-steel and looked to be
> > > > > lower on the engineering evolution level, with not even the basic
> > > > > shape as most modern mechs, but with more of an ancient vertical
> > > > > design instead of the defacto slant parallelogram design.
>
> > > > Was it the one with a *really* long cage, says " Shimano SIS Mega
> > > > Range" on the parallelogram? If so, despite the lack of a slant
> > > > parallelogram or a "centeron" jockey pulley, it shifts just fine, IME
> > > > (which includes having that very thing on my town/errand/utility bike
> > > > with a 7sp FW). BTW, I think it is a member of the Tourney family,
> > > > just very low on the ladder.
>
> > > $8.99 worth of shifty goodness!:
>
> > >http://www.bikepartsusa.com/product_info.asp?f_c=Derailleur&f_c2=Rear...
>
> > Actually, I think it's a Tourney GX-30 GS bikepartsusa #01-102476 @
> > $10.15
>
> While your faith in the Mystery of Derailleurs is admirable, that was
> the derailleur on the "hybrid". All the others got the pretty grim
> looking $8.99 model.- Hide quoted text -
>
>

Ah! I was referring to the one I have that personal relationship
with. ;-)

But, IIRC, even the bottom of the barrel model shifts just fine, given
decent set-up, cables and freewheel. Of course, none of that is
guaranteed in a cheap bike.