excuses... excuses

[wafflycat]

See

http://new.edp24.co.uk/content/news/story.aspx?brand=EDPOnline&category=News&tBrand=edponline&tCategory=news&itemid=NOED31%20May%202007%2021%3A06%3A50%3A170

or

http://tinyurl.com/33s9z5

"Norfolk's biggest employer has defended its decision not to take part in
the government-backed cycle to work scheme."

"But the county council says that it does not take part in the scheme
because when it asked local companies to tender for providing the bicycles,
they were so much more expensive than buying bikes as an individual,
particularly in the sales, that it was not worth it. Instead it provides
interest-free loans for staff to buy their own bikes, although the loans do
not offer the same tax breaks as the government cycle to work scheme."

"The council, which has more than 24,000 employees, encourages its staff not
to drive to work, and teachers and children at its schools are also asked to
cycle or walk, where possible."

That last quotation...can't say I've ever come across *encouragement* to
cycle to school in all of the years my offspring has being doing this in
Norfolk. Indeed he's had active discouragement at times.

[Doki]

"wafflycat" > wrote in message
...
> See
>
> http://new.edp24.co.uk/content/news/story.aspx?brand=EDPOnline&category=News&tBrand=edponline&tCategory=news&itemid=NOED31%20May%202007%2021%3A06%3A50%3A170
>
> or
>
> http://tinyurl.com/33s9z5
>
> "Norfolk's biggest employer has defended its decision not to take part in
> the government-backed cycle to work scheme."
>
> "But the county council says that it does not take part in the scheme
> because when it asked local companies to tender for providing the
> bicycles, they were so much more expensive than buying bikes as an
> individual, particularly in the sales, that it was not worth it. Instead
> it provides interest-free loans for staff to buy their own bikes, although
> the loans do not offer the same tax breaks as the government cycle to work
> scheme."
>
> "The council, which has more than 24,000 employees, encourages its staff
> not to drive to work, and teachers and children at its schools are also
> asked to cycle or walk, where possible."
>
> That last quotation...can't say I've ever come across *encouragement* to
> cycle to school in all of the years my offspring has being doing this in
> Norfolk. Indeed he's had active discouragement at times.

How on earth are people supposed to get to school in Norfolk? Given that
things are far apart due to the sparse population, it's a fairly flat county
and rural bus services are crap? The impression I get from people I know
from Norfolk is that everyone gets a bike, then gets a 125 as soon as they
can.

[wafflycat]

"Doki" > wrote in message
...
>
> "wafflycat" > wrote in message
> ...
>> See
>>
>> http://new.edp24.co.uk/content/news/story.aspx?brand=EDPOnline&category=News&tBrand=edponline&tCategory=news&itemid=NOED31%20May%202007%2021%3A06%3A50%3A170
>>
>> or
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/33s9z5
>>
>> "Norfolk's biggest employer has defended its decision not to take part in
>> the government-backed cycle to work scheme."
>>
>> "But the county council says that it does not take part in the scheme
>> because when it asked local companies to tender for providing the
>> bicycles, they were so much more expensive than buying bikes as an
>> individual, particularly in the sales, that it was not worth it. Instead
>> it provides interest-free loans for staff to buy their own bikes,
>> although the loans do not offer the same tax breaks as the government
>> cycle to work scheme."
>>
>> "The council, which has more than 24,000 employees, encourages its staff
>> not to drive to work, and teachers and children at its schools are also
>> asked to cycle or walk, where possible."
>>
>> That last quotation...can't say I've ever come across *encouragement* to
>> cycle to school in all of the years my offspring has being doing this in
>> Norfolk. Indeed he's had active discouragement at times.
>
> How on earth are people supposed to get to school in Norfolk? Given that
> things are far apart due to the sparse population, it's a fairly flat
> county and rural bus services are crap? The impression I get from people I
> know from Norfolk is that everyone gets a bike, then gets a 125 as soon as
> they can.

People may get a bike, but few are used to actually get to schools. As for
transport, the County Council provides a coach pick-up service to bus kids
in to school from the outlying rural areas. If you don't live on a coach
route, taxis have been used (county council paid - ultimately rate payers of
course). The usual way for many kids to get to school is as per most places
these days, parental car.

If you look here:-

http://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/content/News/story.aspx?brand=ENOnline&category=News&tBrand=enonline&tCategory=news&itemid=NOED31%20May%202007%2009%3A20%3A53%3A380

or

<http://tinyurl.com/ysqzbe>

an article published only yesterday, "Schools under fire over bike sheds"
which refers specifically to Norwich, as opposed to Norfolk (the rest of the
county is unlikely to be different - certainly the bike sheds at my son's
high school were *atrocious* and the ones at his current sixth form are
*atrocious*, the county council has precious little to be proud of. From the
link:-

"A lack of decent bicycle sheds at the city's high schools means children
are relying on parents to drive them to school, according to cycling
campaigners.

Norwich Cycling Campaign, which was set up in 1990, said a paucity of
lockable cycle parking at schools meant children were reluctant to get on
their bikes to get to school.

That means children not only miss out on the exercise cycling offers, but
are also at risk, because parents parking outside school gates to drop off
or collect youngsters can make nearby roads more dangerous."

There was also a recent article - but can't locate the URL at the moment,
where the county council is considering a scheme where those studying for
A-levels can be provided with a motor scooter to get to college. There was
also mention of a bicycle & helmet, but the amount of money awarded to buy a
bike & helmet meant that what would be able to be purchased would be a BSO
rather than a bicycle :-(

[wafflycat]

"wafflycat" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Doki" > wrote in message
> ...
>>

Forgot to add. Parts of Norfolk are flat. But it's parts, not the entire
county. Whilst mountainous it most certainly isn't, it is undulating to
varying degrees. Many's the bod I know who has come to Norfolk, cycled and
said "I thought Norfolk was supposed to be flat" Then on the bits that are
flat, there's the wind blowing for mile after unrestricted mile in from the
North Sea across the broads or edge of fens.

[spindrift]

"I thought Norfolk was supposed to be flat"

Try Gas Hill in Norwich.

[Andreas Schulze-Bäing]

Am Fri, 1 Jun 2007 11:09:40 +0100 schrieb wafflycat:

> "wafflycat" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> Forgot to add. Parts of Norfolk are flat. But it's parts, not the entire
> county. Whilst mountainous it most certainly isn't, it is undulating to
> varying degrees. Many's the bod I know who has come to Norfolk, cycled and
> said "I thought Norfolk was supposed to be flat" Then on the bits that are
> flat, there's the wind blowing for mile after unrestricted mile in from the
> North Sea across the broads or edge of fens.

Still the number of commmuter cyclists seems to be higher in the flat
topography of the East of England, including rural Norfolk. Last year on
one of my projects I played a bit with data from the Census. One of the
maps that we did not use in the final report shows the share of commuters
by ward using bicycle to get to work:
http://www.reurbanisierung.de/share_bike_ward_uk.png
This share is slightly higher in rural Norfolk compared to many other parts
of rural England. You can also easily spot the red spots of Cambridge and
Oxford. Also places like York, Hull, Grimsby and Boston further north show
rather high shares. As the congestion charge in London came later, the
shares for bike commuting in London are rather small :-)

Andreas

[bugbear]

Andreas Schulze-Bäing wrote:
> Last year on
> one of my projects I played a bit with data from the Census. One of the
> maps that we did not use in the final report shows the share of commuters
> by ward using bicycle to get to work:
> http://www.reurbanisierung.de/share_bike_ward_uk.png

NICE MAP! Wow! Thanks!

BugBear (heartily impressed)

[bugbear]

Andreas Schulze-Bäing wrote:
> http://www.reurbanisierung.de/share_bike_ward_uk.png

What the hell caused the hot spot near Lossiemouth?

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Scotland,+United+Kingdom&sll=52.377626,1.106376&sspn=0.175211,0.460052&ie=UTF8&cd=1&ll=57.695341,-2.609253&spn=1.227142,3.68042&z=8&om=1

BugBear

[wafflycat]

"Andreas Schulze-Bäing" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> Still the number of commmuter cyclists seems to be higher in the flat
> topography of the East of England, including rural Norfolk. Last year on
> one of my projects I played a bit with data from the Census. One of the
> maps that we did not use in the final report shows the share of commuters
> by ward using bicycle to get to work:
> http://www.reurbanisierung.de/share_bike_ward_uk.png
> This share is slightly higher in rural Norfolk compared to many other
> parts
> of rural England. You can also easily spot the red spots of Cambridge and
> Oxford. Also places like York, Hull, Grimsby and Boston further north show
> rather high shares. As the congestion charge in London came later, the
> shares for bike commuting in London are rather small :-)
>
> Andreas

Public transport is, to put not too fine a point on it, absolute ****e in
rural areas. Needs must, no matter the topography, and cycling is an option
*considered* when public transport is so dire. People may well put on a
census return that they commute by bike, but due to the evidence of my eyes
in rural Norfolk, not many actually do use a bike regularly. In Norwich
itself there's plenty of bikes in use, as in towns, but in the rural areas,
not anywhere near so much IMO.

[Paul Boyd]

wafflycat said the following on 01/06/2007 12:23:

> Public transport is, to put not too fine a point on it, absolute ****e
> in rural areas.

I have an elderly grandmother who unwisely moved to the middle of
nowhere in Cambridgeshire a while back, despite being warned that she
would be stuck *when* she is no longer able to drive (which has now
happened). She has a bus service. It runs on Tuesdays...

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

[Simon D]

bugbear wrote on 01/06/2007 :
> Andreas Schulze-Bäing wrote:
>> http://www.reurbanisierung.de/share_bike_ward_uk.png
>
> What the hell caused the hot spot near Lossiemouth?
>
> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Scotland,+United+Kingdom&sll=52.377626,1.106376&sspn=0.175211,0.460052&ie=UTF8&cd=1&ll=57.695341,-2.609253&spn=1.227142,3.68042&z=8&om=1
>

The RAF base, I'd imagine. Bikes are a pretty good way to get around an
airfield.

--
Simon

[Andreas Schulze-Bäing]

Am Fri, 1 Jun 2007 12:23:14 +0100 schrieb wafflycat:

> Public transport is, to put not too fine a point on it, absolute ****e in
> rural areas.

That's no surprise. Public transport relies on a high population density.
Otherwise the services do rely on heavy subsidies.
After all the advantage of density and proximity is the very reason for the
existence of towns and cities.

> Needs must, no matter the topography, and cycling is an option
> *considered* when public transport is so dire. People may well put on a
> census return that they commute by bike, but due to the evidence of my eyes
> in rural Norfolk, not many actually do use a bike regularly.

Even if the share is a bit higher in rural Norfolk, it is still rather low.
I doubt that you can spot the difference between a share of 1% and 3% by
the evidence of your eye :-)

Andreas

[Rob Morley]

In article >,
bugbear
says...
> Andreas Schulze-Bäing wrote:
> > http://www.reurbanisierung.de/share_bike_ward_uk.png
>
> What the hell caused the hot spot near Lossiemouth?
>
Lots of people living on-base or in married quarters?

[Brendan Halpin]

bugbear > writes:

> Andreas Schulze-Bäing wrote:
>> http://www.reurbanisierung.de/share_bike_ward_uk.png
>
> What the hell caused the hot spot near Lossiemouth?

Or the impressive level of cycle-commuting *in* Lough Neagh, NI :-)

Brendan
--
Brendan Halpin, Department of Sociology, University of Limerick, Ireland
Tel: w +353-61-213147 f +353-61-202569 h +353-61-338562; Room F2-025 x 3147
http://www.ul.ie/sociology/brendan.halpin.html

[David Martin]

On Jun 1, 12:23 pm, "wafflycat" >
wrote:

> Public transport is, to put not too fine a point on it, absolute ****e in
> rural areas. Needs must, no matter the topography, and cycling is an option
> *considered* when public transport is so dire. People may well put on a
> census return that they commute by bike, but due to the evidence of my eyes
> in rural Norfolk, not many actually do use a bike regularly. In Norwich
> itself there's plenty of bikes in use, as in towns, but in the rural areas,
> not anywhere near so much IMO.


I would question the methodology from which you make your
assumptions. Typically you are not carrying out a detailed survey and
your personal observations will be biased by the mode of transport
(travelling by bike will tend to under represent cyclists in your
observations) and the time of day at which you perform those
observations (typically travelling outside normal commuting hours will
not get an accurate picture of how people travel to work.

I'm not questioning the observations you make, just raising caveats as
to why they are not concordant with the census results, and why both
of the observations may be correct.

...d

[Simon Brooke]

in message >, wafflycat
') wrote:

>
> "wafflycat" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Doki" > wrote in message
>> ...
>
> Forgot to add. Parts of Norfolk are flat. But it's parts, not the entire
> county. Whilst mountainous it most certainly isn't, it is undulating to
> varying degrees. Many's the bod I know who has come to Norfolk, cycled
> and said "I thought Norfolk was supposed to be flat" Then on the bits
> that are flat, there's the wind blowing for mile after unrestricted mile
> in from the North Sea across the broads or edge of fens.

While I know that this is true, having cycled across Norfolk more than
once, I have to say that the hilliest bits of Norfolk are flatter than
places we around here describe as flat. For example, here's my route into
Dumfries - from here this is the 20 mile route which involves least
climbing (even the A710 coast road has more):
http://www.toporoute.com/cgi-bin/getSavedRoute.cgi?routeKey=IUWRKEMWAPVHTEW

Nowhere on earth is absolutely flat...

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Morning had broken. I found a rather battered tube of Araldite
resin in the bottom of the toolbag.

[Simon Brooke]

in message >, bugbear
') wrote:

> Andreas Schulze-Bäing wrote:
>> http://www.reurbanisierung.de/share_bike_ward_uk.png
>
> What the hell caused the hot spot near Lossiemouth?
>
> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Scotland
+United+Kingdom&sll=52.377626,1.106376&sspn=0.175211,0.460052&ie=UTF8&cd=1&ll=57.695341,-2.609253&spn=1.227142,3.68042&z=8&om=1

I assume it's Findhorn. There are cultural as well as strictly geographical
reasons for these variances. I, too, was interested in the 'hot spots' in
Scotland, which do not generally coincide with flat places.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; It's dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
;; Voltaire RIP Dr David Kelly 1945-2004

[Andreas Schulze-Bäing]

Am Fri, 01 Jun 2007 13:36:16 +0100 schrieb Brendan Halpin:

> bugbear > writes:
>
>> Andreas Schulze-Bäing wrote:
>>> http://www.reurbanisierung.de/share_bike_ward_uk.png
>>
>> What the hell caused the hot spot near Lossiemouth?
>
> Or the impressive level of cycle-commuting *in* Lough Neagh, NI :-)
>

That's the dilemma of using UK borders boundary sets :-) It does not take
into account enclosed open waters, also known as lakes. Therefor a
significant part of Lough Neagh is covered by the ward Aldergrove, while
only a small stret of it is actually on land. My suspicion is that the high
number of cycle commuters in this ward is due to the nearby Belfast
International Airport which is located in Aldergrove. Maybe many of those
pilotes, stewards and luggage workers happily cycle to work. Or -
alternative theory - the daily commuters to London by plane do the first
stretch of their journey by bike and hence put that into their census form
:-)

Andreas

[Andreas Schulze-Bäing]

Am Fri, 01 Jun 2007 14:23:46 +0100 schrieb Simon Brooke:

> in message >, bugbear
> ') wrote:
>
>> Andreas Schulze-Bäing wrote:
>>> http://www.reurbanisierung.de/share_bike_ward_uk.png
>>
>> What the hell caused the hot spot near Lossiemouth?
>>
>> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Scotland
> +United+Kingdom&sll=52.377626,1.106376&sspn=0.175211,0.460052&ie=UTF8&cd=1&ll=57.695341,-2.609253&spn=1.227142,3.68042&z=8&om=1
>
> I assume it's Findhorn.

It is indeed Findhorn. 447 commuters by bicycle and 2148 population of 16
to 74 age in this ward.

> There are cultural as well as strictly geographical
> reasons for these variances. I, too, was interested in the 'hot spots' in
> Scotland, which do not generally coincide with flat places.

There are two potential reasons for the hot spots in Scotland. Firstly -
the census form in Scotland also asked for the travel to place of study
(school/university etc). Therefore the figures are not directly comparable
to the rest of the UK. And for non-car-based forms of commuting the shares
are therefore consistently higher, as people in education might not be able
to afford a car. Secondly - in very sparsely populated areas, such as large
parts of the highlands, the wards are rather big, often as big as Greater
Manchester or Birmingham. Yet the typically 1000-2000 population in such a
ward is often focused in just one or two small villages. Often the place of
residence and the place of work are in the same village, as there are
simply no jobs existing in reasonable commuting distance. - hence it's more
likely that a bike is taken to commute in these circumstances.

Andreas

[Roger Merriman]

wafflycat > wrote:

> "Doki" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "wafflycat" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> See
> >>
> >>
<http://new.edp24.co.uk/content/news/story.aspx?brand=EDPOnline&category
=
News&tBrand=edponline&tCategory=news&itemid=NOED31%20May%202007%2021%3A0
6%3A50%3A170>
> >>
> >> or
> >>
> >> http://tinyurl.com/33s9z5
> >>
> >> "Norfolk's biggest employer has defended its decision not to take part in
> >> the government-backed cycle to work scheme."
> >>
> >> "But the county council says that it does not take part in the scheme
> >> because when it asked local companies to tender for providing the
> >> bicycles, they were so much more expensive than buying bikes as an
> >> individual, particularly in the sales, that it was not worth it. Instead
> >> it provides interest-free loans for staff to buy their own bikes,
> >> although the loans do not offer the same tax breaks as the government
> >> cycle to work scheme."
> >>
> >> "The council, which has more than 24,000 employees, encourages its staff
> >> not to drive to work, and teachers and children at its schools are also
> >> asked to cycle or walk, where possible."
> >>
> >> That last quotation...can't say I've ever come across *encouragement* to
> >> cycle to school in all of the years my offspring has being doing this in
> >> Norfolk. Indeed he's had active discouragement at times.
> >
> > How on earth are people supposed to get to school in Norfolk? Given that
> > things are far apart due to the sparse population, it's a fairly flat
> > county and rural bus services are crap? The impression I get from people I
> > know from Norfolk is that everyone gets a bike, then gets a 125 as soon as
> > they can.
>
> People may get a bike, but few are used to actually get to schools. As for
> transport, the County Council provides a coach pick-up service to bus kids
> in to school from the outlying rural areas. If you don't live on a coach
> route, taxis have been used (county council paid - ultimately rate payers of
> course). The usual way for many kids to get to school is as per most places
> these days, parental car.
>
> If you look here:-

depends on the area, in primary, comp and 6 form collage i had a school
bus, and most walked or took the collage bus, certinaly at comp, where
there was a big coach to pick up kids from the villages in the gorge.

i used to be a postie in the area, and while there are kids who get
dropped off, most i would say walk or get school buses. but the areas i
worked where anything but rich.

>
>
<http://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/content/News/story.aspx?brand=ENOnline&c
a
tegory=News&tBrand=enonline&tCategory=news&itemid=NOED31%20May%202007%20
09%3A20%3A53%3A380>
>
> or
>
> <http://tinyurl.com/ysqzbe>
>
> an article published only yesterday, "Schools under fire over bike sheds"
> which refers specifically to Norwich, as opposed to Norfolk (the rest of the
> county is unlikely to be different - certainly the bike sheds at my son's
> high school were *atrocious* and the ones at his current sixth form are
> *atrocious*, the county council has precious little to be proud of. From the
> link:-
>
> "A lack of decent bicycle sheds at the city's high schools means children
> are relying on parents to drive them to school, according to cycling
> campaigners.
>
> Norwich Cycling Campaign, which was set up in 1990, said a paucity of
> lockable cycle parking at schools meant children were reluctant to get on
> their bikes to get to school.
>
> That means children not only miss out on the exercise cycling offers, but
> are also at risk, because parents parking outside school gates to drop off
> or collect youngsters can make nearby roads more dangerous."
>
that certianly is a issue.

i don't think any of my schools had bike sheds, though i did do a
cycling proficecy in the junnor school.

but then the area is in a gorge so school kids cycling in is not that
likely.

> There was also a recent article - but can't locate the URL at the moment,
> where the county council is considering a scheme where those studying for
> A-levels can be provided with a motor scooter to get to college. There was
> also mention of a bicycle & helmet, but the amount of money awarded to buy a
> bike & helmet meant that what would be able to be purchased would be a BSO
> rather than a bicycle :-(

ah yes built to a price...

roger

[Roger Merriman]

Paul Boyd <usenet.dont.work@plusnet> wrote:

> wafflycat said the following on 01/06/2007 12:23:
>
> > Public transport is, to put not too fine a point on it, absolute ****e
> > in rural areas.
>
> I have an elderly grandmother who unwisely moved to the middle of
> nowhere in Cambridgeshire a while back, despite being warned that she
> would be stuck *when* she is no longer able to drive (which has now
> happened). She has a bus service. It runs on Tuesdays...

taxies? round where my parents are people take taxies to the shops and
back and such, you often see the drivers packing some old dears shopping
into the taxi.

roger

[Dave Larrington]

In ,
Simon Brooke > tweaked the Babbage-Engine to tell us:

> Nowhere on earth is absolutely flat...

This:

http://www.toporoute.com/cgi-bin/getSavedRoute.cgi?routeKey=HWSFYLCVLQRXFMH

is a twenty-five mile stretch of last weekend's Audax. I don't know where
they get their elevation data from, but that gert big spike in the middle is
just Plain Wrong.

--
Dave Larrington
<http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk>
Putting just the right amount of gin in your goldfish bowl makes
the fishies' eyes bulge and causes them to swim in a very
amusing manner.

[Paul Rudin[_2_]]

Simon Brooke > writes:


>
> Nowhere on earth is absolutely flat...
>

Depends rather on your definition of "flat" and how small a distance
you want to consider, Shirley?

[Ekul Namsob]

Dave Larrington > wrote:

> In ,
> Simon Brooke > tweaked the Babbage-Engine to tell us:
>
> > Nowhere on earth is absolutely flat...
>
> This:
>
> http://www.toporoute.com/cgi-bin/getSavedRoute.cgi?routeKey=HWSFYLCVLQRXFMH
>
> is a twenty-five mile stretch of last weekend's Audax. I don't know where
> they get their elevation data from, but that gert big spike in the middle is
> just Plain Wrong.

I find that happens now and then on Bikely when creating routes around
here. I suspect it knows of a 200 ft deep pot hole on Blackpool Road.

Cheers,
Luke


--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk>